I’m an owner builder on her second house. I am a cabinetmaker, so I approach housebuilding with a lot of fussy-ness. Sometimes don’t know if I ask too much. (A blog of my project is at www.beatricedohrn.blogspot.com. A contributor to this site sent me a nice e mail suggesting I share it… so I am doing so, albeit a little bashfully.)
I recently received a load of oregon white oak — a combination of rift and quartered. I was not happy with the quality of the milling as it came off the truck, and let the sawyer know as much, but I took the wood. Now I am trying to determine whether I ought to keep it, or kick up a big fuss.
The wood is not milled with a real floor profile. It is simply a tongue and groove pattern where there is neither a top nor bottom. This is not of huge concern to me in and of itself, but I am a little worried that the lack of a “relief” space on the bottom where the wood meets might make the installation hold up less well.
There are some other problems — like the number of planks that have the tongue or groove off-center…. but the real nub of my concern is this:
many boards seem to have at least one rough edge or a part of the edge is imperfect, so that when I put them together there are places where there are gaps large enough for a finger nail. This is not the case across the –so to speak– board, Some planks have no gap spots. A few stay gapped all the way. Many have spots here and there where the boards cannot come together fully.
I have a good air nailer — I am forcing the boards together well — the issue is that there is tear out or an indent where the molder took more material here or there.
My gut tells me that this will not be an acceptable intallation. But I’m not sure if I am remembering flooring as more perfect than it really is… So I’d appreciate an honest assessment: In a good quality flooring installation like this, how frequently should there be a space between the boards immediately upon installing.? I really appreciate your responses.
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No help on your question, I'm sorry.
Just want to say how nice it all looks. Impressive. Maybe I'll try building my own in my next life.
I'm not flippin' you off.........just counting cubits
Your standard of living will eventually diminish to your standard of buying. Think about it.
I think sanding and puttying might be called for before finishing. Probably just a light sanding, but if the tongues and grooves are a little off, I don't see how you can avoid it.
I don't think the sanding would be light... there are some height differences that are up to 1/16th.Tell me about putty? I thought it just cracked out over time... does a good installation really use it?
Well, I'm not a floor finisher, but I've seen pro's use a wood-putty filler when refinishing old wood plank flooring. Consider this a bump until a flooring pundit comes along.
It's sounding more and more like you'll either have to re-machine the t&g edges, probably with a shaper or a router table, or be very selective in picking your pieces out. View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
yes they do. I've seen everything from the color matched putty similar to the minwax stuff, to a loose grout type of filler that is spread over the eitire floor and sanded off. Most finishers putty new installations. I've never seen one putty a re-finish though.
I have a friend who built his own house, and he got some flooring milled at a local mill which resulted in flooring which sounds like your--no relief groove, bottom same as top, etc. I'd like to report that it went together fine, but it didn't: really looked like s***.
Real wood flooring is milled the way it is for a reason. There shouldn't be gaps in it. Those gaps aren't going to get better over time.
Your decision is whether you are going to be happy with a funky floor or whether it is going to bother you for all time.
Personally, I wouldn't waste the effort on this stuff. It sounds like you'll invest a lot of work and time and end up with a mucked-up floor. *Small* irregularities in the edges will disappear when you apply the appropriate filler before you do your final sand and finish, but I'd be more worried about the lack of grooves on the underside. These are there to a) help the floor lay flatter and b) to allow the back of the boards to breath so both sides will stay equalized in moisture content. Without venting, the boards will be more likely to cup with the changes in seasons, leaving you with a wavey floor -- but, since you're a cabinet maker, you knew this already. ;-)
You can get unfinished flooring pretty cheap -- unless this stuff was virtually free, I'd send it back to the seller. Maybe he can use it for firewood. ;-)
Oh, and if you do keep it, you might wanna check for MC and be sure it's dry before you lay it.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
Everything fits, until you put glue on it.
Well I milled my own from rough sawn lumber which I air dried and.. I then further dried it indoors for another year before milling it. When I milled it I ran everything over the jointer to make sure the edges were straight. however when I finally got around to installing it I had to do a lot of work to close the boards back up. (including using clamps and wedges)
It went together fine and no you don't need the back relief grooves!
They weren't there in most flooring untill well into the 20th century and even really wide planked boards lay down just fine..
If you'd like to see what My floor looks like go to 86920.13 in the advanced search over to the left.
It's random width black walnut that I face screwed and pegged.
View ImageView Image bakersfieldremodel.com
It sounds to me like you'll be satisfied with little less than perfection, so maybe you should change to a better product. But personally, I don't care much for the "perfect" look. Don't get me wrong, I things to be done well. But I like to feel comfortable living in my home and real life means imperfections. I've seen high end floors so perfectly layed and finished that they were almost undistinguishable from that IKEA junk with the "woodgrain" paper picture pasted on the top. In other words - unnatural. It seems a shame to finish natural materials to an "unnatural" level.
What you desribe would not be worth using for me on a professional job. labot to make it right would eat up savings unless the invoice was for less than a buck afoot.
Lack of relief cuts on back does not bother me if it is milled and delivered at 10%MC or less.
It sounds like there is a lack of skill or a lack of concern for quality at tht mill
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Floor boards are milled narrower below the T & G so the top edges get banged tight. Having both bottom and top milled the same will give you more bounce back and it will be tough to get them tight.
As for the imperfections in the top edges. They start out, loose, looking better than they will once installed. If you don't like them loose, you'll hate them installed.
Putty is a solution. It just depends on how much. It can be hard for the novice to get a correct stain match. As a cabinetmaker, this may not be an issue.
Boards which have a lower centerline - T & G not aligned with other boards - will be floating once installed. Not good. Hollow sound when walking over and will eventually squeek due to poor bond/ connection to substrate.
Frankie
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Having made T&G flooring both by router table and a 20K+ wienig 4 head moulder, it seems odd to me that youd get off center tongues AND centered. The off center is so there is more meat at the top for sanding, that is made by a sticker or molder..small shops w/out big equipt. are more likely to make the center tongue, being as they can choose either "face" for grade.
No back relief tells me it was a small shop run, not a flooring sticker. And likely the set up drifted in mid run...I'm a woodworker who has had that happen all too often.
Waned edges on the back are common, often it is slightly less wide on the back so the faces can be laid tight, wane , or saw tracks on the face edges are just sloppy machining.
I'd not want to lay it, and I'd not want to finish it , putty isn't an option for my style of work..I'd be having them come get the material outta my sight, or be darn certain that the waste percentage more than covers the actual unusable or unsatisfactory culls.
If you got 10% figured for waste, and you only have 90% usable, yer screwed...if you got 130% of needed, and 20% is culls, you may be OK. That time culling is gonna eat up some labor cost too.
Time to make two piles and add things up..good luck.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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I don't want any gaps on my flooring. don't settle for any on your's. Did u supply the oak or did the millwright?
millwright provided the oak
Your house in a beautiful place, where is that?As far as your flooring dilema, 1/16" is nothing for a floor sander w/ 36g, the different milling of tongues and grooves is another thing. It's going to be a bear to lay, and it might be a noisy floor when you're done... cheap burglar alarm, though.Did you say how much of it you're laying? How wide are the boards? Could they be remilled?Unless it's particularly beautiful wood, doesn't sound like it will be worth the fight.You also mentioned you're puttin it down with an air nailer...flooring nailer, or finish gun?Is it nice enough to make cabinets?<G>http://www.tvwsolar.com
We'll have a kid
Or maybe we'll rent one
He's got to be straight
We don't want a bent one
He'll drink his baby brew
From a big brass cup
Someday he may be president
If things loosen up
House is in the hills outside Eugene, Or. Solar, that's next learning experience!
I have a Bostich cleat nailer -- made for floors. (You gotta love Craigs list when you're in my position)
Sounds like all you need is some good flooring LOLhttp://www.tvwsolar.com
We'll have a kid
Or maybe we'll rent one
He's got to be straight
We don't want a bent one
He'll drink his baby brew
From a big brass cup
Someday he may be president
If things loosen up
let me add to that I had differances of over 1/4 inch between board thickness. (my own stupid fault)
As for differant heights of grooves see if you can match them to a standard height or two.. then nail all of one groove height down and shave some off the spline or groove of where the next height joins together. (i'm assuming that you can't return them which is the real solution here).
DIY guy here so take my advice with that in mind. I layed a cypress floor that had no relief cuts. I bought the wood in Jacksonville, FL at a cypress mill. The T&G were done centered, and that enabled me to flip the boards to get the best looking side up. It's been down for 4 years in a vacation house that has no AC [mountains of NC] and very drying winter heat without squeaks.
I also made a floor out of cherry that I had sawn then dried in a barn in FL for a year before taking it to NC where I resawed it, planed it and T&G on a router table and installed it myself. No relief cuts. It looks very good because it's cherry, but there is seasonal movement that a cabinet maker would not like. I don't mind because it's a house in the woods and I can look at it and say I made it myself from a tree.
Might have done better had it acclimated to NC house longer.
Sanding will bring everything level, but if you don't have a "personal" involvement in the wood, the other imperfections may not be acceptable to you. Four floors that I have seen pro's install had some putty used for minor gaps and yes on some the putty cracked, but that's almost a given with wood movement I thought.
I thought I'd keep my mouth shut on this one but you are asking for advice so I suppose it won't hurt to take a shot at it, after all, I do speak from a lifetime of sanding and finishing floors. Not bragging, rather complaining!
I hate cracks in floors! Maybe I'm biased, in fact no maybe about it I am biased. Cracks don't belong in floors. They upset the finishers routine, too, even adding a return trip plus some hours of labor to the job. Truth is, I never seen a fix that would last for more than a few seasons. The normal movement of the flooring during the season changes and the walking and vacuuming will loosen the fix up and it will fall away. So yes we could make a customer happy at the time but if you see the floor after a couple years it won't be pretty.
So my thoughts are this. If you can't lay it without cracks, don't lay it. If you can cull out an acceptable amount go ahead and use it. Make sure it's a little drier than your house, humidity wise, and ship the culls back to the mill.
You can fill little cracks, say 2" long or less and chipped corners with tinted window putty.
"My gut tells me that this will not be an acceptable installation."
I haven't checked out your blog yet, but given you have some experience building homes (your second ), and the fact you're a cabinet maker(experienced)...... What's that thing we're always saying to ourselves?......I should of followed my gut......follow your gut, put up the fuss.
Geoff
Edited 7/24/2009 11:50 pm ET by Geoffrey