About 18 years ago I put a maple floor in my bathroom (you know, the 2-1/4″ x 3/4″ T&G strips, unfinished), and varnished it with some sort of satin polyurethane, no stain. It’s done pretty well.
Now I’m continuing the maple into the hall, and I’m wondering what’s the best way to go with varnish. I know the water-borne finishes have become popular, but I don’t have any experience with them. I’d like to blend in well with what I have, and I want something durable. Also, as long as I’m working on flooring I may as well do something about the few older areas that show some wear, so I need something compatible. Any opinions?
Replies
bump
:o)
Ronflolrotdaliny- Rolling on the floor laughing out loud, rolled out the door and laughing in the yard !
Best part is - hook line and sinker.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
If he ever learns to copy/paste, we are all in trouble
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
piffin,
at least I try not to be repetative or boring.. ;-)
feel free to be repetitive. I've done so many floors with poly, I think I'm gonna try my own your way. At least I'll test it up for myself first.
sarison,
You'll really like it I'm sure.. depth without looking plastic, richness without obscuring grain. class like a fine antique and ease like nothing else you've ever used before..
I really should get some sort of bonus (or at least my next gallon free ;-) hint hint Zinssers........
and I'm doing all this stupid typing (which I hate!) they spend squat advertizing.
It is really disgusting to see Frenchy's diatribe almost every time I tune in to this forum. So he did a floor and didn't completely ruin it in his lifetime and now he's an expert. Most of what he said is wrong and the rest is flat out lies. Anybody who puts shellac in a bathroom or kitchen is not going to be happy long. Frenchy, are you gonna wipe off 600 square feet of old shellac with alcohol? How many gallon and how many hours would it take. If you open the windows the stuff will dry off before it dissolves the shellac and if you shut them you'll die just before the house blows up if you're lucky.Frenchy, how many gymnasiums or ball courts have you seen where the architec selected shellac? I haven't seen any either. Did you get to be an expert while dong 1.7 jobs and looking at it for 1.8 years. I had more experience than that twice a week for 30 years. I didn't think I was an expert for the first 15 or so. What I hate is running down shellac, a fine finish used in it's place but not on a floor. It picks up mud and turns a dingy and ugly color over time and is next to impossible to remove. There are more negatives.Back to 16 penny, when you're ready to finish the new part rent a buffer and screen back the old finish and when you put on the last coat on the new part have the old screened and vacuumed and put on the final coat over everything. Water based urethanes are somewhat troublesome and cost about triple what oil base does. Oil base may stink up the place for one night but you can crack a few windows open to take out the smell. Some people think that oil finishes are bad for the atmosphere but in reality is minuscule compared to a CA fire for instance or the manufacturing process of water base. I would really like to take the time and pick Frenchy's baloney sheet apart limb by limb but I just ran into this thread at 11:30 and I need some sleep. Good luck, Mesic
concurr
Hey, thanks to everyone. I probably will save Frenchy's advice for something a little less permanent than a floor, play it safe and go with the oil-based poly.The Polo-whosie sounded good, but probably not available. Any other suggestions? Any brand to avoid?
You have to mail order it in. At least what I did. But the polo plaz stuff is great. My neighbors and cousin had their floors done and paid some guys good money to do it...they looked good..for a while..I did mine about the same time The polo plaz stuff still looks great.Its tough stuff. 24 hr drying period before recoating and 3 days before you can walk on it and 7 days before you can put yer furniture back on it.
Edited 12/1/2007 7:02 pm by Sancho
Which did you use?
OK OK , i'm a convert, will do next wood floor with shellac.
You are one hell of a spokesman for shellac, who or how did you get sold on shellac?
bobtim
I'm cheap... a real classic titewad. I don't buy untill I am satisfied that there is not a better deal elsewhere. Years ago I tried shellac. There was a movie, The Red Violin I think it was, where a violin was tinted red and shellaced.. That caused me to try shellac.. At the time I didn't know anything but I went into a woodworking store and they sold me some flakes and denatured alcohol. I played around and had a miserable time trying to get the flakes to disolve and then paint them on. So much so that I went back and watched the movie again and noted just how thin and watery the shellac was compared to my pasty efforts..
I remembered a trick an auto body painter had showed me on how to get a smooth finish with laquer, put two and two together and had an extremely satisying result.
skip forward to about 10 years ago when I was thinking of building this timberframe and I decided to try shellac on the timbers.. (by then I'd read everything I could find on shellac and decided that I would use it instead of the varnish I'd originally thought of)
Eager to see what it looked like a shellac one of the timbers as soon as it was up and sealed from the weather (about 5 years ago)
Another one of my traits is I'm the worlds worst painter. I usually spill more than I apply both on me and on stuff around.. In this case I spilled it on the sub floor timbers. I didn't worry because I was stomping in and out all the time and I was sure that weak ol' shellac would quickly abrade and disappear. Well it didn't, it's still there! So much for fragile...
Fast forward about 4 years and my daughter is pregnant and going to have a baby . I rush to finish off her bedroom and put down the finished floor which I have but a couple of hours to finish since I want to ensure it's completely aired out before she comes back that afternoon.
Well, you know the story from there..
IN the roughly two tears since, I've done 1000 sq.ft in my house 1500 sq.ft in my sisters and showed a couple of buddies how to do it as well.. I've got about 3000 more to do in my place before I'm done..
mesic.
Shellac was used long before the various other finishes spent millions of dollars selling their benefits.
to strip a large room you simply get efficent at making the alcohol do it's job.. No you don't do the whoile area at once, either you're really ignorant or your being deliberately provocative.
I'd soak an old towel in alcohol lay it over the shellac and come back with a steel wool pad. I'd start with one of the coarser stainless steel jobs and then once it's lifting off switch to the brass ones and finish with the finer steel wool ones.. At most I'd use two towels one soaking one Im removing the shellac from.
But You'd have to show me where it was required to remove a whole floor to fix a damaged area.. shellac "fixes" to nicely for that sort of treatment.
I fully admit I'm not an expert at gymnasiums. I've never done one nor do I ever expect to do one..
I do know that the rooms I've done with shellac have held up brillantly to use and abuse..
As for shellac picking up dirt, it's harder than most other finishes (I haven't tested every finish so I can't state that catagorically) so why would it MUD more than say polyurethane? (which I know is softer) I do know that you can clean mud/ dirt dust/ grime/ grit and sawdust off shellac without any damage.. I've done it.... a lot!
try it yourself..
as for turning color.. well eventually every thing exposed to UV rays will change color.. but shellac has more natural UV in hibitors than most finishes I know of..
Is it a perfect finish? No! I wouldn't put it on the floor at grand central station, nor would I ever put it outside..
but it's about as perfect as can be for a nice room where a modicum of care is used.
Thanks for the info, Frenchy.
I have an old furniture book that says use several coats of shellac, then apply a final varnish coat for a protective finish. You end up with a "deep down look" in the wood.
Also, do you mix the shellac and alcohol in a five gallon bucket? How long is the mix good for if you keep a lid on? How much area does the 3 gallon mix cover?Well, Guess I have to learn how to do THAT, now!
So all three coats use the same thinning with the alcohol?
rez,
yes! three coats of 1 pound cut shellac..
Pacificbest
Test varnish,, even when dry it's far softer than shellac.. and I didn't think soft would be good on a floor finish..
As for look, well if that were true antque dealers would do that, they don't. It doesn't get better than shellac for a fine quality finish..
(mind you I use plenty of warnish for my exterior black walnut exterior timbers.) The finest Varnish bar none is epiphanes.. just ask boat restoration companies..
I don't use a 5 gallon bucket, I mix 1/3 of a gallon of the stirred up shellac mix and then add the rest denatured alcohol.. exact doesn't matter that much..
You could use a 5 gallon bucket, it would be easier to use than the paint roller tin I use
three gallons of mix covers about 500 sq.ft.
kept sealed it will last an easy year add a little more denatured alcohol and you could squeeze two years out of it maybe.. The problem is the air left in the container. if you have a quart left and keep it in a quart container tightly sealed you might possibly get a little longer life. The test for any shellac is a small test strip shellac it and if it doesn't dry in 15 minutes, 20 at the absolute outside, toss it..
Edited 12/1/2007 6:02 pm ET by frenchy
Mesic
I'm having some questions about who is full of baloney as well? You say that Frenchy doesn't know what he's talking about, I have seen numerous floors that have had shellac on them for quite a few years and still look good. What do you think the finish of choice was back when you couldn't get all that stuff that you say you use today?
Here are some pictures for you to take a look at.
I tore the carpet up in this room, ugly as hell. The pad left a pattern in the floor that I couldn't sand out without a complete redo and since I'm planning on tearing the oak up in a few years that didn't seam to make a lot of sense.
On a hunch I decided to try a little alcohol to see if shellac wasn't the finish of choice. It was!
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I taped plastic over the cold air return and over an arched opening and opened up a few windows to vent the room.
Took me all of 2 1/2 hours to completely clean the floor. When I was done I took the same rags that I used to wipe up the slurry and did a recoat with them- continuously pouring on additional alcohol to keep the rags wet(it does evaporate fast, as you mentioned, BUT NOT THAT FAST).
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When I was done with the wipe down I gave the floors a few more coats of shellac and this is the results of my floor.
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I know for a fact that these floors were shellaced back in the 30's, then carpet was laid over them in the 70's.
The floors were not all that bad but the pad had left some sort of etching in the finish and I didn't like it, to distracting even though the floors will be tore up someday.
I also didn't care for the deep orange that the original finish had so I used clear shellac, I make my own, something I'd suggest everybody do. I know that Frenchy doesn't and that's cool, I like the choices that I can get from the flakes, store bought only offers clear and orange/amber.
All total I'd say I have less then an 8 hour day in all the work, corse I'm not factoring in the time it took for my wife to tear the old carpet up, she hated it more then I!
I also have a bathroom floor that is parquet, walnut and cherry. It is shellac as well. Been there since at least 1935, newspaper clipping clearly shows the floor! The floor is in pretty good shape considering that some so called experts say that it shouldn't/cant be done!
Doug
Edited 12/1/2007 5:28 pm ET by DougU
Doug U
Nice work, I'm glad to see that it came back so nice for you..
I understand somebody who attacks me.. I admit I'm out of the mainstream of things and if you've never done a shellac floor it seems sort of crazy to even suggest it..
I don't benefit in any way from others following my advice. except it's a way of paying back others for the help and encouragement I've recieved while building my home..
You mix your own flakes? cool.. while I've done it on occasion it's really time consuming and a lot more expensive than buying the premixed stuff.
Do you follow my over thinned aproach or a more conventional 2 pound cut approach?
Do you follow my over thinned approach or a more conventional 2 pound cut approach?
You know I don't know what the cut that I use is!!! I know that the guys over at knots would hang me by the toes for that remark but I just sorta mix it and go with my gut.
I have used the store bought, Zinser I think, and I usually just add about 1 to 2 times the amount of alcohol to shellac, depends on my needs I guess. There is know "chemistry" to it.
I can tell if its to "thick" and you cant make it to thin so WTF, that's the beauty of shellac, its so simple, really hard to flux it up.
A friend of mine, good cabinet maker, will thin his shellac down really thin(don't know exactly how thin) and on some cabinet work he may apply 25 coats and then do a French polish over the whole thing.
I do like the flakes for several reasons, one, I can get a more wide varitity of colors and two, I dont have to worry that its setting around aging. I ruined a finish on an antique because I used some "old" shellac.
If I need to precoat/preseal some wood, say alder for instance, I will just go buy a can of shellac at the store and thin it down, pour it on the alder, then give a sand job real quick and apply stain/finish as needed.
Doug
Edited 12/1/2007 6:04 pm ET by DougU
DougU
That's the fun part of shellac.. get experts together and have them tell you their shellacing secrets.
There is a lot of " do it my way or fail" but as you know shellac doesn't care.. it'll work.. Just get it on and get out of it's way ;-)
Mr.fixit found out that the sanding makes more of a differance than the exact cut of shellac..
I tend to try to look at the wood more than try to make the wood look or match something else. So adding color doesn't appeal to me, that's why I use the clear or blonde all the time.. Now that Zinssers has changed the formula you don't often have shellac sit around for three years before you use it. Even years ago I found if you added enough fresh denatured alcohol it didn't matter.. you found out those 70 year old shellac flakes softened just fine with fresh denatured alcohol and you were even able to re apply them weren't you? It's the alcohol that goes stale not the flakes..
you found out those 70 year old shellac flakes softened just fine with fresh denatured alcohol and you were even able to re apply them weren't you?
Never looked at it that way! I will now
Doug
since I've never worked with it and only used poly in the past, Can you tint the shellac or do you need to stain proir to the shellac process.
Dustin
sarison,
yes.. either way will work.. however my preference is to tint the wood. that way it doesn't get darker as you apply each coat.
remember shellac, even clear will somewhat add color to the wood. So keep that in mind as you settle on your color.. definitely do a test area..
Edited 12/2/2007 9:11 am ET by frenchy
I'm another fan of shellac. I think it's one of the most under-rated finishes out there. Zinnser needs to get better PR. LOL
It is a hard finish, but the hardness goes down the more refined the shellac gets. Probably not enough to really make any difference. Therefore amber is harder than clear, garnet is harder than amber.
I used to know a sales rep from Zinsser. I got a couple of quart cans of Seal-Coat free when that product first came out.
I should find out if he's still there. Zinsser's only about 20 miles away from me.
You can tint shellac with a tint that dissolves in alcohol, either dry or liquid tint. I use TransTint.But that doesn't mean you can't stain before you apply shellac. You can even apply a thin cut of shellac and THEN apply stain. this can cut down on the blotchiness of some woods, like white pine.
DougU
Pretty impressive picture story that you posted. I have never seen a whole room removed that way before. I must admit I don't know everything even in the field that I think I know a lot. My way of finishing floors had become narrower and narrower until I [we] would have only one system. That was the system that made the HO the happiest with the least problems and comebacks for us. That system was to sand and then seal the floor with Watco stain. The next day we'd save enough time at the end of the day to come back to that job and screen it with 100 grit screen back, vacuum and slap on a coat of polyurethane. And pick up the check. Very seldom a comeback but many calls of delight and happiness with their floors. Then calls from their neighbors to give them a floor like so and so. Never spent a nickel for advertising and always busy.By saying narrower I don't mean tunnel vision but the eliminations of systems that didn't pass muster or make the HO satisfied. If the HO wanted a different finish we would do it his way and thus check out a different way. After all the experimenting we would always seem to fall back to Watco and urethane. Things change. For one thing I have been retired for over 15 years. I have three nephews each with his own business of sanding and finishing floors. During Thanksgiving week I was deer hunting with two of them. They keep me posted a little on present trends. Some thoughts of theirs. Water based urethanes are expensive and take more coats and are problematic. Watco changed hands and isn't what it used to be. Incidently, I have Watco left over with quite a few colors that I just mixed up for myself using three colors for this house. That stuff must be 20 years old now. Once in a great while Watco won't dry overnight if it's muggy and still. We looked at your job through your camera and thus through your eyes. Now lets look at that job through my eyes. I see a crappy looking floor that's got orange shellac on it. I happen to have a floor sander in my truck so I toss it in and sand the room. It takes me an extra half hour and an extra sheet of expensive #4 open coat sandpaper. I started at eight AM and I have it sealed and I'm eating lunch on the next job. I expect to get the same amount of work done in the afternoon and perhaps the final coat on a yesterday's job. I'd do a little bellyaching about the shellac because it added at least a half hour and cost more wood and paper than if it would have been urethane. Yes, I've developed a hatred for shellac and wouldn't use it on a floor mostly for that reason. Also, it is not harder and tougher than urethane as Frenchy says. Google around and find what's tough. I could go on but we had six inches of snow today and I'm tired. You must have had some of that too. Mesic
Mesic
I apologize for my support of something I've found of real value.. I understand you feel that somehow I'm wrong because it's at odds with your experiance. However as you say, things change. You mentioned your favorite, Watco, had recently changed it's formula.
Shellac was used long before and will remain used long after the other various finishes. In todays green enviornment it has tremendous appeal.
As for durability, well I don't know of any 70 year old polyurethan finishes out there like Doug posted.. Let alone the 100+ year old finish someone over at Knots posted about.
But I'll be fair.. there are no back to back double blind studies that I know of comparing polyurethane finishes to shellac.. so I guess we're both going to have to make our best case and let the readers sort it all out themselves..
With regard your Watco and not drying.. to be fair Shellac should never be used when humidity is over 80% or it will not dry either.. Sorry to hear they've changed the formula.. of your favorite Watco.. But this is the internet and I'm equally sure that someone will come on here and complain about Watco, shellac or both and tell us both that we should be using their secret formula.
I was looking at my left over can of shellac and it says shellac can be used for floors, finishing furniture, or as a coat of sealer on metal (such as tools that might rust)
It also says that shellac will seal odors in floors such as pet ####.
Interestingly it says that shellac may be used on ceramic tile and I was just wondering if you or anyone had used it on tile as a sealer prior to painting it.
We have a lot of old bathrooms with ugly, outdated ceramic tile that no one knows what to do with. Usually it gets torn out.
But I would like to try a coat of shellac as a primer and then maybe a coat or two of paint over the top with a foam roller to get a nice finish.
http://www.miracote.com/index.php?href=productdetail&id=20
This material is said to be able to be applied to a tiled surface (even vertical) and thus creates the base for new tile or other surface treatment. I do beleive they recommend scuffing up the surface a bit first.
Mr. Fixitusa,
I don't see where you can lose.. you don't like the tile for whatever reason. you have some left over shellac , what's the harm?
No I've never done that but a coat of paint isn't that expensive.
as for sealing odors, that's another one of shellac's great attributes.. if you buy a house that has been burned you know how hard it is to get rid of the odor.. well don't bother,, coat all the burnt but solid surfaces with shellac and stink be gone!
Mesic
I'm not trying to sell the world on shellac, it works for me but I can do the work, the average HO cant SO, I'd say that shellac isn't a good choice for that average person!
I'm a firm believer in the adage that there is more then one way to skin a cat and shellac works for me but I'm not advocating it for the industry that you made your living in or that of your nephews. Different strokes and all that good stuff!
I'm not sure that I would have done to my floor what I did but considering the circumstances - it'll be ripped out someday, I didn't need to bring in a sander, just me on my hands and knees for a few hours - that beats the hell out of a big sander that I don't have or have the experience to use well. I've tried one before, wasn't all that fun for me!
Snow, we didn't get as much of that as we did ice/sleet/freezing rain. Several inches I think.
This weekend was the first weekend for shotgun so the deer were plentiful today, next week is second shotgun and then us sane hunters can get back out there with our bows. I'm getting antsy now that its turned cold, don't like to hunt when its warm out so second part of bow season is my favorite time to hunt.
Doug
Edited 12/2/2007 8:29 pm ET by DougU
I began playing with finishes for my woodworking projects roughly thirty years ago. While I love shellac for its ease of repair and such, I often need deep penetrating finises for my wood surfaces, to protect against potential water damage, even after wear has removed the surface coat. The only thing that will do that for me is either straight, thinned oil or thinned (approx. 30%) urethane type finishes. The waterborne finises are alleged to offer the same protection as the oil base types, but don't have the same penetration effect. However, keeping the finish wet (with a heavy coat and removing the excess when you are "happy" with the level of penetration) for longer periods does help. Using thinned oil based poly type finishes, I saturated a six inch thick piece of wood so it was wet on the underside (penetrated all the way through). Thirty years later, in a room shared with a fire place, the wood still has not shown signs of cracking from loss of moisture. To be fair, it did take some time for the thinner to dry off, but the end effect (protection) made it worth the time.
Though I use more of the modern plastic finishes than shellac, I, certainly, have not abandoned it. My first real experience with it sold me on its value. I was one of many working to restore the oldest Queen Ann in Olympia, Washington. The floors were all shellac (amber) over cedar (the whole house was cedar), except for a new maple floor in the front room. More than eighty years after the house was built, the floors were still in pretty good shape, aside from that they had shrunk from moisture loss. Patching the old holes where registers previously allowed warm air transfer to the upper floors was a breeze, since the shellac blended so well. It really is a durable finish. If the wood were well oiled first (shellac is a wonderful sealer), it would swell and somewhat stabilize ((the oil replaces lost moisture, swelling the wood and sealing small cracks, it evaporates slow (even slower, with a sealer over the top) and it inhibits absorbs ion of moisture)
someone named Frenchy will be along shortly to tell you about
Shellac.
I had a similar thread a couple of months ago where I was asking about floor finishes and he
encouraged me to use shellac on my oak floor and I did
and I really like it.
Frenchy must get some kind of kick back whenever someone buys Shellac
Just kidding :)
I've used shellac on furniture before... what about matching/blending into the old floor? (what about repairing the old floor?)
What about if someone spills a beer?
16d
Spill a beer, well for cripes sake wipe it up! what were you born in a barn! Here's a towel, now wipe ! < big 'ol grin!>
OK just for those technically interested beer is what 16 proof? that means it's about 8% alcohol and since you need to use 100% alcohol and soak it for a bit to remove shellac not much is gonna happen right away..
IF I've got my numbers wrong just remember proof is 1/2 of what it's percentage of alcohol is..
So even if you spill that single malt scotch (neat) you've got some time before anything happens.. if anything does happen you can fix it so fast you'll do it just to show off..if that scotch is on the rocks you've got a lot more time..
Fixin' spilt booze spots that nobody told you about..
first... cross them off future guest lists,, what were they born in a barn? <Grin>
second... grab some shellac and thin it to a one pound cut (I'll explain later)
third....grab that stiff old brush that you never cleaned when you finished shellacing and set it in the mixture for a few minutes. It will soften right up and then when it does brush on some new shellac..
you see the new shellac will melt together with the old shellac and become an invisable repair.. doesn't matter if it's last week, last year, or two centuries ago..
As for matching the old floor, I'm sorry shellac isn't that crude.. the reason people use satin finish is because gloss simpy looks too plasticy when you polyurethane something (it's plastic after all) satin reduces that but it also destroys the beauty of the wood.. (you can't see the wood grain)
as for that polyurethane finish, I'm afraid you've got no choice but to sand it all off.. you can't do a partial repair with polyurthanes like you can with shellac..
Besides shellac is harder and tougher than polyurethanes.. honest! test it yourself!
OK here's some other stuff. Shellac is safe.. you've been eating it for years they coat pills and candy with it!
the fumes you smell when it's applied are the same fumes you get at a doctors office!
first coat dries in 15 minutes and then all the fumes are gone anyway!
From start to finish once the floor is sanded and ready for shellac it will take you about two hours to have the floor ready to walk on. It's cheap too! cost you about $50.00 to do 500 sq.ft.
I can tell you about the effects of water too if your interested.. Not much, I had a airconditioner leak all over my floor and made a great big puddle that had to have bbeen there for several hours before I discovered it.. I wiped it all up and expected it to be white in the morning.. Nah!!!!....... no effect.. (oh, except that part of the floor wasn't dusty anymore)
MY 150 pound dog who refuses to clip his toenails hasn't harmed my floor nor has stomping all over it in work shoes ..
If I did somehow cause a scratch I know the magic words.. abra- cadbra-alakazam (I then take a rag dampened with denatured alcohol and rub it briskly for a moment or two and poof scratch-be-gone! To get the full effect have small children nearby)
Better practice up on your magic tricks if you want to top that!
That is a great post Frenchy... You make we want to find something to shellac.
http://www.petedraganic.com/
Discovered a renovation I'm doing has old shellac floors so his technique will be a go, but what I really want to try is some of Frenchy's 16 proof beer.
rez,
what proof is beer anyway?
Beer ranges from about 4 to maybe 16 proof (2% to 8%). Remember the days of low alcohol beer in some states? I think that was 3.2%, called 3-2 beer.
Brayan Sayer
thank you..
It all varies. 8 percent is pretty potent. Don't know if the government has restraints on the classification of beer strengths or not. I'm sure there must be that percentage out there somewhere.
Certain beer beverage malt liquors use to say 6 percent on the can and I've seen some beers recently that say 6 percent on them.
Back in the 70s those 18 to 20year old Ohioans were permitted to drink only 3.2 percent beer
and so the Pennsylvania folks that couldn't drink anything legally till 21 use to travel to the Ohio bars.
rez,
I've drank maybe three beers in my life, never a whole can at once but when the social event calls for you to have a beer in your hand I may have taken a sip if it was hot enough and I was thirsty enough..
Come to think of it three might be an exageration..
I prefer whine er,..... wine ;-)
Maybe a barlywine.
Hi-test fer sure
What about if someone spills a beer?
You make sure he doesn't get anymore of the good stuff.
J. D. ReynoldsHome Improvements
I would continue with the same oil polyurethene.
IMO, the water based poly looks OK on some woods, but makes maple look like plastic formica
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
I use a product that was recommended here called polo plazhttp://www.poloplaz.com/
That's good info, and specifically what I was looking for.
16d
How about it, would you like me to walk you thru the steps of a shellac finish? It's easy, fool proof, and fast!
Well, yes, actually, though I can't guarantee I'll use it on this particular floor. I've got a file going called "Shellac." A little scary to use it on something 'nondisposable' like a floor. Got any pictures? Anything well-used?Hey, thanks.
16d
sure, go to 86920.13 and I think there are some more at 85891.1
Shellac is the only finish that I know of that can be wiped up if you don't like it..
no sanding needed!
fine antiques are done with shellac because only shellac brings out the richness of wood honestly..
shellac was used for centuries before polyurethane were and there was a post over at fine wood working asking how to remove shellac from a 100 year old floor.. Same way as a new floor, wipe it up with denatured alcohol..
we'll assume you've removed all the old polyurethane (hint! use those new square pad sanders they have now rather than those round drum sanders, you won't gouge the wood with those the way you will with a drum sander) I think the pads are about 18 x24
work up to the finest pad they have. I try to get the floor to look a bit burnished for a really great finish.
then remove all the dust etc..
Oops I forgot,,
go to Home Depot or some store like that and buy a gallon of Zinssers bulls eye shellac.. Yellow can says clear on the bottom..
then buy two gallons of denatured alcohol..
Alcohol not thinner or anything else! two gallons of denatured alcohol!
If you are fat and lazy like me I buy one of those lambs wool applicators as well. for $9.00 to not have to bend over with a brush is very nice.. , oh and pick up one of those 3 M sanding sponges, yellow one 220 grit (180 will work in a pinch)
now, back at home...
mix the gallon of shellac with the two gallons of denatured alcohol..
shellac will settle so mix if from the bottom for about a minute. 45 seconds if you are impatient, 90 seconds if you are anal. ;-) before pouring it in..
Now take and put that applicator, or your big old barn paintin' brush, or your stocking feet if you don't mind freezing them ;-) into the shellac mix and flood it on the floor..
Two rules.. 1st never go back over anything, if you miss something don't worry, the next coat will melt right in and make an invisible repair.
2nd. Do it fast,, the Indy 500 of painting! speed is everything!
Just flood it on and let'er go!
Might be hard so try to find a young person and tell them to do it..
Don't worry shellac washes out of clothes so if you slop some on your socks just toss them in the wash and they will come out shellac free..
It will take 15 minutes to dry.. when dry reach down and rub your hands on it.. feel those nubs? those were raised from the alcohol. you have to sand them off.. you can use the sanding sponge for that. it should take you about a second to a second and a half per sq.ft. (less if you have a DA sander and use it) don't try to fix anything.. the next coat will melt all your efforts and you'll just waste your time.. just do a lick and a promise sanding. 500 square feet should take between 8 and 12 minutes.. Honest! check when you are done that all the nubs are gone, sand off any you missed.
then take a towel and wipe up the white residue that results..
(Don't worry I won't tell your wife ;-)
and repeat the painting process.. fast and don't go back!
this coat will take a 1/2 hour to dry.. then double check to ensure all the nubs are gone.. if you missed some you can sand just those spots but remember to wipe up the white residue
Now put on the 3 rd and final coat. fast and don't go back over!
this coat will take an hour to dry..
couple of bits of information.. you can keep on putting coats on but each coat will double again the amount of time to dry plus thicker isn't better with shellac..
It can cause alligator. It took my piano about 70 years to alligator but a floor it might happen a bit faster, it depends on how thick it is..
IF you want to you could color sand this finish and have a deeper look doesn't take all that long.. Or if you are insane you can go ahead and french polish this for the finest finish imaginable.. Give yourself a month or so per 500 sq.ft. you will develop some mighty big arms. and I won't promise you'll remain sane..
Now don't use any product that has ammonia on this. I mean you wouldn't pour battery acid on your car's finish would you? so don't use ammonia windex and other cleaning products have ammonnia in them so don't use windex on your floor..
tell other about this because it's the best finish I've ever found for wood. bar none!
Hey, thanks, Frenchy. I may get brave or crazy and try this. I assume if it alligators you just hit it again? Or, earlier you said, "second... grab some shellac and thin it to a one pound cut (I'll explain later)" -- is this "later" enuf?Also, seems I remember there are two colors of shellac (orange and something?). And there's a date issue, an age at which it's too old...? Refresh my memory please?
16d
You will like it, nobody has complaigned yet and I've been touting this for a while. If it alligators it does it slowly over years and years. It's a problem of wood shrinks and swells with humidity and shellac when it's real thick can't adjust that much so it "cracks" and that collects dust which over many seasons builds up to the point where it's noticable. The only solution is strip it with denatured and use my 3 thinner coats..
yes, if you read the back of the can it's a three pound cut in the can. Add two gallons of denatured alcohol and you are now at 1 pound cut.. That's thinner than they recommend but it works.. it works better because it doesn't cause any grief going on, it's better because it won't want to alligator, it's better because if the shellac is slightly out of date over thinning with denatured alcohol solves the problems of old shellac..
old shellac, if you flip the can upside down it has a manufactured date on it.. new shellac is supposed to be good for three years (they slightly changed the formula) but fresher is better, that's why I use Home Depot or one of those other big box stores.. any questions test the shellac first.. mix as I said and do a small test piece, if it's not dry in 15 minutes, 20 at the outside don't use it! bring it back! (IT'S NEVER HAPPENED TO ME)
Yes they sell both Orange and clear (or blonde) I prefer the clear, it comes out plenty warm without obscuring the finish in any way while the orange doesn't give that same clarity and warmth..In my humble opinion
My experience refinishing my living room floor is as follows. Two or three years ago I sanded the oak floor and brushed on three coats of
minwax polyurethane - oil based.
The finish had bubbles and I was very disappointed. Since then I've talked to other people who've told me they like polyurethane but they stay away from minwax polyurethane.
So I sanded my floors down 3-4 months ago and started over. I rented a drum sander at home depot and sanded down to bare wood. Then I used light stain (oil based) and my floors were looking really good.
I live in the home and wanted to do things as quickly and easily as possible.
So I bought water based polyurethane and brought it home and read the instructions and it said "apply after the stain has dried for at least 72 hours"
I did not want to wait three days so I returned the water based polyurthane.
I then bought shellac and came home and applied two coats in one day and I like the finish. I used a lambswool applicator.
The floor is fine for me, but if I had charged someone for the work I did they wouldn't be satisfied.
I used a lambswool applicator and mopped on the shellac and it doesn't give you a professional looking finish as you have light and heavy spots. I guess you would say there are runs in the finish.
The other mistake I made was the way I sanded the floor. I rented the drum sander and went from heavy to light sand paper and then applied a coat of stain.
I should have rented either a vibrating floor sander or an orbital floor sander and sanded out any blemishes caused when you start or stop any drum sander. But to give myself credit - I couldn't see any blemishes prior to finishing - you can't see them until you apply a coat of finish !
I have debated this with the tool dept at home depot. I said "why didn't you tell me I needed to use a different floor sanding machine after I sanded with the drum sander?"
Their response is "Professional refinishers come in every day and they only use the drum sander". "They know what they're doing and can sand out all the blemishes from where you start and stop".
I disagree and I think most people are going to be disappointed if they don't sand with the machines I described above and in the sequence I listed above".
Anyway, good luck with your project.
Edited 12/1/2007 2:48 pm by mrfixitusa
Mr fixitusa,
go ahead and apply the third coat.. It won't fix it completely but it will improve it. make sure the floor is clean and dust free and the next coat will be an improvement..
You did do the 1 pound cut didn't you?
Yes I bought 3 lb shellac and reduced it. But I reduced from 3 lb to 2 lb and that seemed really thin. So I did not feel comfortable reducing from 3 lb to 1 lb. Maybe I'll try that next time.But I found applying shellac with a lambswool applicator to be like trying to brush on laquer - it just dries too quickly. You dip the applicator in the pan and mop it on and for a foot or so it's flowing and then the shellac dries and the applicator starts "dragging".I may strip mine and redo it - although most people have said the floor looks really good.
mrfixitusa,
I'm sorry I didn't explain things better to you.. thin is in with shellac. you really must do the INDY 500 of painting.. I do mean really really fast!
No carefull painting allowed! don't ever go back over! Flood it on and don't stop because you missed a spot or something. Just flood it on and let the alcohol flow everything together.. another words don't get in the way.
This isn't so much like painting as mopping, or pouring paint..
Neat doesn't enter in. Shellac does the work for you, just don't get in the way because you're slow and careful..