What’s the deal about getting quotes?!
OK, I’m putting on an addition.
One part of the addition is a walk-in bay, with a bay window.
The window guys recommend getting that as one unit so that it’s all finished nice on the outside, no piecing trim, all factory clad on the outside.
Trouble is, you can’t really order something like that until the base wall is framed and you have ACTUAL measurements, not just drawings.
So we wait until the framing is done to order windows.
We ordered windows from two sources…Eagle windows because we wanted a particular option that apparently only they offer. Those came in in about 4 weeks.
The other windows, the majority, we ordered from Loewen, including the bay. Original ETD was 6-8 weeks. It is now 12 weeks and counting. The brick guy doesn’t want to do the outside until the windows are in. the drywall guy ditto (especially as we’re looking for drywall returns 🙂 ).
Meanwhile we’re trying to order doors. From Simpson, from Kolbe, from someone who can give us a wood door, with special glass. Trouble is, is getting an actual quote from these guys. We went to Menards to look for screen doors, closet doors… While we were there we saw a kiosk for Mastercraft doors. Looked like an ATM. Tried it out. Basically had their catalog loaded in it and all you had to do was punch in your door model, color, glass options, background (was it going to be set in a brick wall or clapboard) and viola! it immediatedly spit out a quote, with a picture of the door in your wall, with a price, all the codes needed to order with, the works.
Call up a Simpson or Kolbe dealer, and no lie, I know this from real life experience, but it will be 5-6 days before you get a quote back from them. Even if you call up, feed them their very own model numbers, use their own names for the glass option, and request a standard 32″ x 80″ door size. AND then! If you want to get a quote on a different wood species, or an extra bore, or whatever, it’s ANOTHER 5-6 days for the new quote!!!!
Are we not living in the computer age? Why can I peruse their catalog online, but can’t select the options I’m interested in online and finally just get a quote online, immediately? Why does getting a quote take so long, and seem so hard? If the quote-people are overwhelmed, then why NOT just offload the quote function onto the buyers?
What a ruddy joke. How many CNC machines are they controlling and have linked to their order system? They can’t link a quote routine into their catalog?
I’ve never gone through the addition deal before, so maybe I’m missing something fundemental, but it seems to me that there are major points/issues/areas that need to be rethought/re-engineered and just plain changed.
So right now? We’re waiting on the Loewen windows, the addition being framed out, electric done, HVAC done, kitchen cabinets are ready and waiting, appliances ready and waiting, everything else seems to be ready and waiting, just waiting on the windows, and the latest quote on a couple of doors, which in addition to the one week lead time for the quote itself, we’re told will have a week lead time where the order just sits in their system queue, and THEN a 4-6 week lead time for production. That’s eight weeks, from now, to get a fairly simple, standard-sized door.
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The window guys recommend getting that as one unit so that it's all finished nice on the outside, no piecing trim, all factory clad on the outside.
Trouble is, you can't really order something like that until the base wall is framed and you have ACTUAL measurements, not just drawings.
So we wait until the framing is done to order windows.>>>
never heard of that before..
we get our specs from the window mfr and build our framing accordingly..
when the window is delivered ( 2-3 days for distributor stock.... .& .... . 4 - 6 weeks for factory order )
the window goes right into the opening...
so.. if you back everything up.. and place your orders when you need to, there should be not delay in your progress ( in a perfect world )
as to quotes... we get all our quotes from our lumberyard... once i give them the specs i can get a quote immediately for stock items or 2-3 days for special items
Pella would have sent a rep to your place the week you called.
Maybe its because every client thinks that their job is a trauma, Im a trauma center, but I can only handle so many traumas at one time, so youll have to go into Que like the other patient people who have been waiting for tier turn.
Its not my intention to be rude, but its hard on our end when everyone is mad at you, and you are working 7 days a week to keep up since April.
-zen
Maybe your Loewen window delivery problem is just Loewen; I tried for months to get a catalog with detailed window fenestration data from them to no avail. I had $20K+ in windows to order and seriously wanted to consider them. Finally I went elsewhere.
My guess is they're just not hungry enough (yet).
You are your own GC, right?
Doing something you have never done before, right?
And you know very little about procurement and scheduling, right?
And you don't knoiw how to build to a drawintg and window specs,
but this is a chance to complain about how somebody ELSE does their business, right?
I'm glad I'm not involved in your job. Right now, from what you present here, the biggest problem you have is you. This is a good time to grow up and learn that instant gratification is not part of the home improvement world. Learn it now or learn it later. Your choice, but the sooner you leartn, the more satisfying the addition will be for you and yours.
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"You are your own GC, right?" - That would be wrong."Doing something you have never done before, right?" - Wrong again. I haven't dealt with door or window suppliers other than Home Depot/Menards/Lowes, no. But I have changed out windows (custom to my measurements, not 'standard' sizes from a manufacturer), ditto doors, vinyl siding, roofing..."And you know very little about procurement and scheduling, right?" - 3 wrongs and still no rights. I am regularly responsible for scheduling, ordering, and building, just not houses. MUCH more complex structures."And you don't know how to build to a drawing and window specs", - sorta right, I've never actually built to a drawing, just sort of eyed the project, measured twice, and got building. So this is indeed something new. But I have a GC, who has framing sub's, and this is his recommended process. In his defense, he's never had to deal with window suppliers like Loewen, or door suppliers like Kolbe or Simpson. He recommended Pella, and Pella reps were indeed on my doorstep quickly and eagerly. But we looked at Pella windows, and were seriously unimpressed."but this is a chance to complain about how somebody ELSE does their business, right?" - 2 right in a row! RIGHT. The way Simpson/Kolbe/Loewen are doing business is a crime. What other business ticks off its customers on a regular basis and then makes the customer feel bad? When, obviously, there are better ways to do things. As I posted above, Mastercraft has obviously invested some capital and, more importantly, some THOUGHT to the order/customer interface issue and come up with a significantly better solution. I will indeed complain, if only to help the hapless multitudes that will follow me down this path."I'm glad I'm not involved in your job. Right now, from what you present here, the biggest problem you have is you. This is a good time to grow up and learn that instant gratification is not part of the home improvement world. Learn it now or learn it later. Your choice, but the sooner you leartn, the more satisfying the addition will be for you and yours." - I'm glad you're not involved also. Obviously you're a 'don't rock the boat' type of guy, who wouldn't work with new products or procedures. Obviously for someone like me, you'd be a constant thorn with all your 'it can't be changed, just deal with it' attitude. I'm not asking for instant gratification, I'm asking that when I order something, and they tell me 4 weeks or 6 weeks, that it doesn't turn into 12+++ weeks with no apology or explanation. I'm asking that, in this age of computers, when they have their complete catalog online, that I should be able to get a quote on a product listed in their own catalog, with options ditto listed in their catalog, in a standard size, faster than 5 or 6 DAYS. My addition will be very satisfying for me and mine, BECAUSE I wasn't requiring instant gratification, because I went with the best products, rather than taking Pella because they're cheap and easy.Again, glad you weren't involved.
well, i'd certainly agree about Pella.. unimpressive
what about mainstream.. like Andersen ? or Marvin ..
how is Lowen distributed... thru dealers ? sounds like the kind of problems i used to have with Weathershield until i just refused to ever deal with them again...
same reason i won't deal with windows comming out of HomeDepot.. i really hate the part about twisting in the wind
i think the key is the distribution system... unless the company is just plain screwed up.. like weathershieldMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
You've made as many wrong assumptions about me as I might have made about you and your job. I work a very dynamic team, I am almost always the first of my local peers to use new technology and products, but only after exztensive research.
So I'll tell you right straight out, after thirty five years in this business, that any GC who trys to frame the place and THEN select and order windows is a loser, inexperineced, or an idiot. It is hard to beileve that he is in business,matter of fact, iof he is a GC worth his salt, all this headache should be on his shoulders, not yours. That is why your first post signals that you are the GC, because it is obvious that he is not doing his job.but then, mayube you are the type who won't let him.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I hate to jump on the bandwagon here but I kinda agree with everybody on this one. I am about to start building a house myself with the help of my father who is a "little bit" experienced. I will be acting as my own GC and I started reading books and asking questions almost a year ago. The foundation has not even gone in yet and we already have all the windows. I figured why risk it, buy what I can get now and frame around them. We've been waiting for the foundation guy over a month now and it may be another month, but yet all the building supplies are already sitting on the site. It just made more sense to me. Plus where I live supplies are getting hard to come by due to the huricanes. Everything is being shipped there. Could be why it is taking so long for you to get your windows. Anyway, I'm gonna step off the bandwagon now and mosey on out. :)Johnny
Edited 10/5/2005 10:47 am ET by Johnny1985489
Sounds like we got us an "engineer".
Poor guy cant be helped.
He may be an "engineer", but he's dealing with bubbas, and Bubba don't do much that makes sense or looks like it might be in any way efficient. When Bubba's busy, he blames his customers for all his troubles. When Bubba is slow, he blames his customers for all his troubles. Bubba's world would be great if it weren't for those #!@% customers.And why should Bubba put prices online when he can sit in a nice air conditioned office and flip through those fat catalogs? If too many folks start lookin' through them books, they might learn a thing or two and wham!, Bubba be out on the street. No sire, them books be pro-pry-e-tary. You want a quote fast? Well that means you get to wait three extra days, Ask again and Bubba will make it a week.Gotta love Bubba...
dand buddy, what put a burr in your saddle ;)?
the 3 "p's" to residential construction:
be persistent
be practical
be patient
Sorry Raokman, your inexperience got you.
You made the mistake of listening to a window guy, to make a general contractor's decision. Those of us that have been out in the field know that 2/3 of all advice given is wrong.
You shoulda been asking questions in here a coupla months ago, or hired a consultant.
blue
Sounds like you should listen to Piffin. A good builder is worth his weight in gold. Enjoy the headaches and stress and pray for good weather.
My wife and I built our own house over the past three years, and we went with Loewen windows. My wife handled the design and ordering of the windows, and had some difficulty with one of the local Loewen reps' knowlege and ability. She bypassed him and ended up dealing with the regional rep, who was great and provided all the info we needed. Yes, the pace of the design and ultimately the ordering of the windows was very slow, but since we started months ahead of schedule, that wasn't a problem. I did our final window cutouts the week before they arrived (SIP construction) and was ready when they arrived. Our process was incredibly challenging and time consuming, but then we were acting as the GC and should have had to make a time commitment to it. A good GC probably would have had far less trouble, but they stiil would have had to put some time into it. (My wife's decision making process would have driven a good GC nuts!) As it was, the windows came in as ordered, we installed them without a hitch, and they look fantastic.
To make a long story short, Piffin is right (as usual). Why isn't the GC handling all the headaches? Why did he wait until the windows arrived before framing? Why weren't the windows ordered far ahead of schedule? I agree with you that a modern, efficient company shouldn't have such long lead times, but they are what they are. If you want Loewen windows and Simpson doors, you have to deal with Simpson and Loewen business practices. We found it managable because we planned ahead, were patient, and followed up with the distributors and manufacturers. We could afford to be our own GC because we had a flexible time schedule and I had the skills to do 90% or the work myself (and the humility to know what I really couldn't handle). Short of that, a good GC is priceless.
"Why isn't the GC handling all the headaches? " Exactly how would he 'handle' them? All he can do is wait. What headaches? I'm not screaming at him for problems out of his control. The window rep recommended this procedure/order of construction. I should be taking off my GC's head? The GC is doing as much as he can in the interim, including laying down a second layer of 3/4" ply on the floor to stiffen things up to my liking, wiring, plumbing, HVAC, roof and roofing. The windows were ordeed the instant the underlying framing was done in the walkin bay, and before even the roof was framed out."Why did he wait until the windows arrived before framing? "He didn't, and the windows haven't arrived."Why weren't the windows ordered far ahead of schedule? I agree with you that a modern, efficient company shouldn't have such long lead times, but they are what they are. If you want Loewen windows and Simpson doors, you have to deal with Simpson and Loewen business practices. We found it managable because we planned ahead, were patient, and followed up with the distributors and manufacturers."Per Loewen's rep's recommendation, we waited until the stub wall below the walkin bay windows, which are composed of several double-hung units, was done and precise measurements were availabe as Loewen would be assembling the series of double-hungs into one unit, with a factory cladding at the two angled points. In a brick wall, the opinion was that site built 'cladding' would be dodgy and not as enery-efficient and not as maintenance-free as the rest of the windows.We ordered Loewen windows for the majority of the openings, but ordered Eagle windows (owned by Andersen?) for 5 openings. We went with the Eagle windows as they had a beveled & leaded glass option that Loewen didn't. The Eagle windows arrived in 4 weeks. We're still waiting on the Loewen windows. Compare and contrast:Eagle single-hung windows (the beveled/leaded sashes are very heavy so only the lower sash opens) with custom glass = 4 weeks Loewen windows, in standard sizes, in standard double-hung configuration, with standard glazing = 12 weeks and counting. This is a lousy business model, in my opinion. And honestly, the Eagle windows we have, compared to the Loewen windows we've seen are very comparable in quality, and price. Based on customer service, I'd recommend Eagle windows over Loewen windows wholeheartedly at this point.Then there's the simple business matter of doing what you say you're going to do, when you say you're going to do it. To tell us that the windows will be here in 6-8 weeks is nice, and helps us schedule. But to actually deliver the windows in 12-16 weeks (I hope) just means that as a company, as a business, you are not to be trusted.
Edited 10/5/2005 6:51 pm ET by Raokman
Why isn't the GC handling all the headaches?
Exactly how would he 'handle' them? All he can do is wait. What headaches? I'm not screaming at him for problems out of his control. The window rep recommended this procedure/order of construction.
In your original post, and again here, you say that the window company rep insists that you build (pretty much) your entire house, then order the windows. Any General Contractor who is worth spit would have told that window company to take a hike. Either you have a house plan, and can tell the window guy what you need, or you're flying by the seat of your pants.
And he would have told them that 12 to 14 weeks ago, because good GC's know that window lead times can be long. He would have known to be checking with suppliers that far in advance. And he would have weeded out any that insisted in design superiority.
It is apparent that both you, and your GC don't have what it takes. In my opinion, you are getting what you deserve.
After all, if you plant squash, then you'll get squash. No amount of hoping for peas will help. And you planted squash.
Unless you're the lead dog, the view just never changes.
Try to follow the thread:Window rep recommended this process, design superiority if you will, as the way to the best fitting, best performing, best looking bay window unit.We were informed of the lead time, at the time, and 6-8 weeks did not seem unreasonable. We agreed to this process, knowing the lead time (at least thinking we knew the lead time).This lead time was not foisted on us, it was known to us, it was part of the schedule.Now follow closely here: The actual lead time wasn't 6-8 weeks! This threw off the schedule. I'm sure the smug all-knowing ones reading this would be saying to themselves that we should have just known that it would be longer.
Well, let's look at that thought: That would mean that you would have to believe that you are regularly lied to (misled) in your dealings with fellow members of your industry. Nice industry. Think that'd work for Visteon or Delphi?We knowingly and willingly agreed to the process. Naive sheep that we are.However, IF these windows actually fit the way 3-4 MONTHS of production work should make them fit, we will not, as a consequence, have as much caulk and shimming as you might consider normal. We will have a tight fitting, well sealed, factory clad window unit that will precisely fit the opening. I'm happy about this. We are dealing, we are coping, we will have not only peas, but steak and potatoes as well when it's all done.Yes, lead times are long, I don't understand why, especially when obviously, some companies can do the job faster and more efficiently (like Eagle). I accepted the stated lead times. I was happy when the Eagle windows arrived in 4 weeks. I was ok when the other windows passed their original ETD by a week, even after two weeks. Now I'm not so happy. Not because of long lead times, I can deal with them, IF I KNOW WHAT THEY ARE.I am not happy about being told one thing, and then, without explanation or apology, experiencing something else.
This I consider a very poor business practice. A close kin of bait and switch. Definitely not what I'd expect from the Mennonite.Let's just agree that Loewen windows are a poor choice for anyone who's not squirreling away building materials for next year's project and that their business processes and practices leave much to be desired.NEWS FLASH!! I was allowed to order TWO Simpson doors today. That brings to THREE the number of doors I've managed to get quotes on and actually get ordered in the past 6 weeks!!! No word on lead times; was told lead time won't be known for 2 weeks, PLUS the actual production/shipping/distributing time of course (these are standard size, and model, Simpson doors). Still one door to go...day 5 of waiting for the new quote.
raok.... i think something is being lost in the translation here..
why don't you post a picture of you bay window area.. it sounds a lot more involved that most of us are picturing..
bay windows come as units and mfr's have all of the dimensions neccessary to frame everything prior to the windows being delivered..
for some reason Lowen is buiding something non-standard to fit a site-specific walkout bay..
it sounds like the cart before the horse...
this is why you are getting so much grief.. it is just contrary to the way things are usually doneMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I don't know where you're from because your profile is blank, but I'm a G/C who has dealt with Simpson a lot with positive results. The home I most recently finished had Simpson entries, and a pile of custom interior stain-grade paneled and glass doors.
Quotes were given within 24 hours on all, even on some odd-ball sizes and lead time was the promised 6 weeks.
Knowing nothing about you, I really have some questions about your G/C. He's the one who's supposed to be your advocate and bird-dogging these items. In my case, I deal exclusively with a contractor rep at a local yard who I trust and who is MY advocate on orders and purchases. On critical items, like doors and windows, I deal ONLY with him because I know he will follow up and keep me in the loop. (If he dies, I'm toast!). Incidently, he made 5 site visits to this last project...we had a lot of interior shear walls requiring extra wide door jams and the HO got crossed up with the electrician and the door-handing had to be changed on several doors due to light switch placement.
In my experience, the big box stores offer no such customer service or foresight....
My take on your tale of woe (and woe is me from the sleepless nights and unbilled hours I've logged so that HO's like yourself CAN sleep and have your steak and wine), is that your G/C doesn't have a chain of contacts that will work for him, or he's alienated them somewhere along the line, OR, you live somewhere where customer service for various mat'ls is poor.
I did have a customer from hell a couple of years ago who became so demanding and arrogant and involved hands-on on his home that I simply lost interest after awhile and, while I fulfilled my contractual obligations and built to my reputed standards, I did NOT do the little extra things I normally do to make the experience positive for the HO.
I might add, that despite your poor experience with your suppliers, this is one of those examples where sh!t actually can be flung and rolled uphill. Any G/C and/or contractor rep knows that a sales rep for a wholesale supplier is the bottom of the food chain....telephones are a terrific device that can be effectively used to climb that food chain....especially if your "advocate" has the nuts to punch the speakerphone button.
Edited 10/5/2005 7:32 pm ET by Notchman
Not being sarcastic in the least. You will notice that no one else here is surprised by your problem. Why? Happens all the time.
I ordered a shower stall from Kohler and was quoted a lead time of 3 weeks. I ordered 5 weeks early as I have been fooled before. 2 weeks before the job starts I inquire. I am told that they are now 13 weeks out. Job gets put on hold for 3 months. I put a new floor in my house because it is too late to book anything else.
Another time I ordered counter top 4 weeks out and was told it would be a 2 week lead time. A week before the job starts the counter top is now 3 more weeks away. Unusual laminate I am told.
The inference that your GC is not that knowledgable is a good one. But it sounds like you are the lead guy in this deal and probably straw bossing the guy so he probably is more like a lead worker than a true GC or he would have gave you more guidance. Probably saved some money with him though so what the hey.
Sorry you don't like the industry. I know all the other industries I have worked in were great! Everything on time, under budget. No one lied at any point. When I worked in prison.........wait.......none of that was true there.
Ok, when I taught school everything was smooth and there were no issues and books arrived when the vendor said so..........wait........that wasn't true there either.
Hmmm. Well.....when I worked at an engineering firm all work that was contracted by us was done by the promised date and all drawings were accurate to a fault...........wait..........we were late a lot and had a lot of screw ups which is why they hired me to do QC.
Ok, ok......I also was a maintenance engineer in some large hotels and everything we were promised there came right on time with no issues and always at the quoted price and people responded immediately.............hmmmmm............well again it didn't happen.
I guess you are the only one in an industry where it all comes as promised promptly. Well....pat yourself on the back for being so much smarter than the rest of us poor shmoes stuck in the back of the woods profession where we know so little and are left in the dark not knowing how to deal with issues because we are so technically challenged.
Or maybe its just you and your GC don't really know this industry at all and you simply don't know what you are doing well enough to know when to order and when not to. Well.......when in doubt ask the window salesman! DanT
P.S. Sorry, the sarcasism slipped out.
<Let's just agree that Loewen windows are a poor choice for anyone who's not squirreling away building materials for next year's project and that their business processes and practices leave much to be desired.>
That may be your experience, but I don't think one can make that generalization for all others. While I didn't have a perfect experience with them, I would buy their windows again for my next project. If your experience was typical, I don't think they would be in business very long. Besides, they are the only manufacturer I know of who makes windows out of Dg. Fir, and I love that look. I have fir trim and Simpson shaker style fir doors, and it definitely looks special.
"...they wouldn't be in business long..."If Eagle, with Andersen capital behind it now, gets going, with the customer service I've experienced, that may be a very prophetic statement.I too like the look, else why am I going through all these hoops and hurdles to get them. I too am getting Simpson fir doors, and the last one I'm waiting to be quoted on is a craftsman style. The original point of this thread was my problems getting quotes. I'm still having problems getting quotes. People who get quotes in 24 hours are gods to me. Tell me more about how that's done.As for the Loewen lead time issue, I'm not one to get ticked, I'm more of a 'if you can't do anything about it, don't worry about it' guy. I'm also a guy who likes to fix things. Something at Loewen and the distributor-based door companies like Simpson needs to be fixed.My GC never dealt with Loewen before, and after this, probably never will again (talk about losing customers). My GC has actually been pretty good about things, including the extras. He has enough other projects to keep his crews working while he waits for my windows, so he's not too stressed out. Actually no one's very stressed here, bemused and amused and slightly askew is us.So, since no one's giving me an actual clue on how to speed up the quote process, and everyone seems to generally agree that Loewen window production is slow, but worth it in the end, I don't see any point in beating this dead horse any further.Thanks for the laughs.
man, this is a hot one...
considering the circumstances, there are times when we have waited until the framing was complete on a certain aspect of the job to order special windows. it sounds like that's what we have here. a large factory custom mull and there was concern about the exterior clad trim interfering with the brick veneer. am i correct ?
in this situation, if the supplier assured me that the lead time was going to be 6-8 weeks and that fit into my schedule, i might choose to do the same thing, order the windows after the framing was complete. this saves the cost of doing a mock-up to ensure that you've got it right. unfortunately, loewen's double hungs have been running 12 weeks +. the casements and awnings are running about 8 weeks. our local supplier is great, he gets us a delivery confirmation date within 48 hours of our order. and that date is a lock. i'm sorry your supplier wasn't on the ball.
as far as the Simpson doors, it's understood that a lot of their stuff takes 6-8 weeks to get. why weren't the doors ordered sooner ?
carpenter in transition
It's a walkin bay, the foundation is bay shaped, there is a short vertical wall over the foundation, under the set of ganged double-hungs. There are other sets of ganged double-hungs as well, but their dimensions weren't as critical as getting the angles right on the bay.
We've been trying to order the Simpson doors, for 6 weeks now. Apparently they don't need the business, or 12 doors is too small an order for them to care about. I would have preferred all fir in the addition, windows and doors. Since Simpson seems to be pretty much the only game in town for fir doors, I've since switched to cherry doors and other sources, which even Menards carries.
I haven't spent a lot of time in the alternate universe called construction, but more power to all of you who spend your lives there. What a loony bin.
Since you've gotten a lot of chuckles here and have come to the conclusion that you've been dealing with a "loony bin" and since you've apparently not gotten a response that floats your boat, I assume you will continue to search for a solution for your dilemma, so I request a favor in return:
When you find your solution, would you share it with us, please?
Many of us, while probably regarded as knuckle draggers in your eyes, really do make an effort to do right by our customers.
In the event we do run into the hardships with vendors you have described it would be great to learn how such dilemmas are resolved in your world.
(jist tryin' to stay on the leeding eg.)
When you find your solution, would you share it with us, please?
Many of us, while probably regarded as knuckle draggers in your eyes, really do make an effort to do right by our customers.
In the event we do run into the hardships with vendors you have described it would be great to learn how such dilemmas are resolved in your world.
My solution is to stay the course on the windows and doors I've managed to order.
It is day 8 by the way, waiting for the latest quote on a catalog-listed Simpson fir craftsman door.
I have found a competitor of Simpson, in Oregon, who actually picked up the phone himself; gave me a number within 2 minutes of my telling him what I wanted, telling me a joke while he was looking it up, and gave me a number that was very competitive with anything Simpson, with it's layers of non-doers, has given me to-date. And better yet, his lead time was 3 weeks!
I regard no builder or worker in the building trades "knuckle draggers", except those with nothing better to do than to try to start a fight. It is the ones back in the air-conditioned offices who are the keepers of the super-secret-special-for-our-eyes-only catalogs that I have a problem with. I mean, how hard is it exactly to run your finger along the line next to the catalog number I've given you to the price for that door? That takes 8 days (and counting...it's the weekend)?!
My problem is not with my contractor or any of his workers, or anyone here that isn't a quote-hoarder. My contractor and his crew have been great. It is them I feel sorry for because after my brief tiptoe through their world, learning a little bit about what they have to deal with on a daily/hourly basis, I get to leave, but they remain with the catalog-control freaks and the factory managers who've been running the same factories, making the same products, day in and day out for years, but who still don't know how long it really takes to make a door or window despite their multi-million dollar investments in software and CNC equipment.
How things are resolved in my world is word of mouth. This experience will be repeated, complete with names, for years. It will be listened to, probably repeated, remembered and influence future purchasers. One of my listeners is a venture capitalist. It's not my money, but I'll certainly let him know my opinion about the opportunity available to a company that can be timely, stick to a schedule, and focus on the customer.
And, how things are resolved in my world, and in yours too I'm sure, is I go elsewhere. There's almost always someone else, they're just harder to find, and harder to check out, but they're there, as I've found with Craftsman doors. I signed orders, I agreed to prices, I thought I had deals with certain vendors, but they didn't uphold their end of the bargain. This time I take it, but next time, I and/or anyone else I tell about it, probably won't. Survival of the fittest doesn't just apply to living creatures.
You have been let down by the people who told you lies to get the order. Don't matter who you are, they stink!! Cancel the window order and go elsewhere! And get your doors from those who care!
Edited 10/8/2005 10:12 pm ET by USAnigel
"One part of the addition is a walk-in bay, with a bay window."
Is your floor framing cantilevered out past the foundation at 45° angles shaped like a bay?
I call those walk out bays and framed them like I described above with the walls at 45° (sometimes 30°)and frame all the walls at 45° with headers and then get a center picture window and two side windows all separate.
I've never seen a walk out bay with a bay window like an Anderson or Pella or who ever that would sit on those 45° walls. Am I reading this wrong?