Here we are again in our continuing saga of truss-related problems.
Once again, you’ve just set a house full of beautiful trusses made of perfectly straight lumber. (Hey, this is all made up, right?)
As you walk through the house afterwards, this truss catches your eye. You whip out your cell phone, call your truss supplier, and tell ’em you want them to send someone out to fix this truss.
What was it you saw?
Q: How many Microsoft phone help technicians does it take to change a light bulb?
A: Please hold, your call is important to us.
Replies
Wow!
That is one helluva truss. I've never seen one that busy before.
Have to say I've never even touched a truss before, I'm a stick frame guy, so I realy don't know much about them in terms of design requirements.
The only obvious thing that catches my eye, besides the WOW factor, is a plate missing at W13/B6. Again, not sure if it's even required.
That sir, is one helluva truss.
Well, dang - That didn't take long.I figured that making the truss complicated would cause everyone to focus on other stuff besides the missing plate. Obviously that didn't work. .Missing plates are unfortunately something I deal with on a fairly regular basis. Sometimes they aren't too serious, like in this case. But occasionally they are. Just last week I got a call about a girder truss. It was a HUGE think that carried part of the 2nd floor over the garage, as well as the roof above it. It carried a total of something like 28,000# total design load. And the plant left the bottom chord splice plate off one side.So if you get trusses with plates missing, call the manufacturer and give'em hell. This is a constant quality control issue that never seems to be solved.
You can measure a leader by what it takes to stop him.
Boss don't give away your answer so quickly. Wait about 24 hours. It will give more people a chance to look at it. More educational for us and more entertaining for you.
Thanks
DaneI will always be a beginner as I am always learning.
so does a machine set those plates or the guy who had an argument with his girlfriend and went home drunk to his wife the night before the one responsible for putting it in place?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
"...oes a machine set those plates...?"
Everything on the assembly tables is done by hand. There are no machines involved except the press.
They've toyed around with the idea of robotics, but they just don't work. (yet)
Robots like things that are things that are consistent in size. As you well know, lumber is over and undersized, as well as being cupped, twisted and/or warped. Wane is also a problem.
Basically the guys build trusses on tables. They nail scraps of wood down to form the perimiter of the truss, and to keep them as consistent as possible. The chords and webs are put into place first. Then they use the claws on their hammers to pick each joint up enough to slip a plate underneath.
The top plate is then laid in place, and a corner of it tacked down with a hammer.
Sometimes they forget to put the plate UNDER the joint, I think. They're typically only left off one side of a truss. It's pretty rare that we send out trusses with plates missing from BOTH sides of a joint.
If the effort that went into research on the female bosom had gone into our space program, we would now be running hot dog stands on the moon.
"Wane is also a problem.";)You know what I'm going to say, don't you?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
If Wayne is a problem, fire him, and hire his dog spot to bark the wood
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
> The top plate is then laid in place,
Where are the plates just before they pick them up and put them in place? Are there boxes or stacks someplace handy to each joint, or are they passed out from a central supply? What I'm thinking is that if they're staged near to the joints, maybe those for the leftmost joint could be spray painted red ahead of time, which would automatically give you an orientation mark visible from both sides.
-- J.S.
They generally throw a few loose plates out on the table near the joints. I honestly have no clue what you're getting at on the painting stuff. Spray painted or not, the plates on the bottom side of the truss are STILL hidden under the lumber. So I don't see where that would make any difference. Wanna take another shot at it?
If your dog is barking at the back door and your wife is yelling at the front door, who do you let in first?
The dog, of course, at least he'll shut up after you let him in
I was thinking about the orientation problem, not the forgetting a plate problem. If, say, the left side gets plates that are pre-marked with paint, the guys setting the trusses have an indication of which way around they go -- for straight ridges and flat planes....
-- J.S.
>> so does a machine set those plates or the guy who had an argument with his girlfriend and went home drunk to his wife the night before the one responsible for putting it in place? <<
I actually worked in a truss factory for a while... 25 years ago. Best thing I got out of that job was when the boss called me into his office because I was 10 minutes late. I think the few bong hits on the way to work had slowed me down a bit... Being late was a mortal sin. The saying was "YOU WILL BE IN YOUR PLACES WITH YOUR HAMMERS IN YOUR HANDS WHEN THE BELL RINGS". Anyway, he says to me "we gotta talk"... Thinking quickly, I got to use that phrase "you can't fire me because...." :-)
Seriously though, in "our" factory, the guys set the precut members in the jig, set the plates and then got out of the way. Then the jig clamped all the wooden components in place, and a giant roller rolled over the truss and squished all the plates in place...
Boss: why not take a few pics in the truss factory and post them so some other people will get an idea of how it's done... Matt
"why not take a few pics in the truss factory and post them so some other people will get an idea of how it's done..."
I thought of that after readin Piffin's post. I may try it, but it will take a while to get the pics, shrink 'em down, and post 'em.
And I have to remember my digital camera first. (-:
People are more violently opposed to fur than leather.
It's easier to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs.
>> shrink 'em down, and post 'em. << Just take 'em at the lowest res your camera go to and let 'em rip...Matt
Again with my uneducated eyes I will try.
Some of the plates that fasten the joints together look a bit small for the job or are not placed properly.
Fastening plates at both ends of W11 look a bit small.
NO plate at all at B6-W13
The plate at the junction of B3-B2 with W4-W5 could be moved over to the left a little to include more of W4.
B5-W8-W10 the plate is again to small.
If I could see the other trusses that were laid out with this one, then the answer you are looking for might stand out more to me, as I would have something to compare it with. To just look at a drawing like this makes it difficult. But! Please keep them coming as I and others are learning from them.
FHB could add a new article in there rag called "Brain teasers" or "What is wrong with this". Not only you could submit items but electricians, plumbers, framers or concrete guys, with the lay out of rebar, could as well.
Again many thanks for taking the time to be a teacher.
Dane
I will always be a beginner as I am always learning.
"Fastening plates at both ends of W11 look a bit small. B5-W8-W10 the plate is again to small."
The plates are all sized for the forces that are in those particular members. For instance - W11 has very little force in it, so the plates are small.
Something like plate sizing and location are probably more difficult than I would want to get into in these threads.
"NO plate at all at B6-W13"
That was the problem, as I pointed out in post #3.
"The plate at the junction of B3-B2 with W4-W5 could be moved over to the left a little to include more of W4. "
The plates are suppose to be centered on the intersection of the webs. The program extends them in both directions until they catch enough of all the members. That's supposed to be less confusing for the plant. The plate on that joint is O.K. as it's shown.
"FHB could add a new article in there rag called "Brain teasers""
Actually, I'd like to see someone else try some of these with the stuff they do. Like plumbers, electricians, etc. I'm running out of ideas. (-:
Diarrhea is a hereditary illness. It runs in the family.
Or even adding a level piece with gussets?I know it creats a big HAP/HEEL cut effecting the overhang but is it possible so you don't have to have a low pitch vaulted ceiling?Joe Carola
The first sketch you drew up won't work. Trusses typically have to be triangulated, and that one isn't. The parallel chord truss in the 2nd picture would work, as long as the span wasn't too long. Something around 20' or so would probably work. But anything much over that would probably get into forces that were to high as well as deflection problems.The level piece you drew on the 3rd one wouldn't make any difference. (Too much to explain here esaily)
I'd give up chocolate, but I'm no quitter.
joe...
View Image
the name for that truss is " VAULTED PARALLEL CHORD " truss..
the webs are usually VERTICAL & HORIZONTAL (plumb & level )
basically...if you can imagine it.. boss can build it (or we'll fire his aZs and get someone who can)Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Sorry I didn't respond earlier but I can't seem to get on this sight. It started last night I click on the sight and then click on Breaktime and it takes forever just to get on the Login page and when I do the color is all black and blue and when I click on Login it takes forever and the same thing everything is this funny looking black and blue. So I don't even know if you will get this post.
Joe Carola
"I'm running out of ideas. (-:"Does this mean your fifteen minutes of fame is up?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Boss,
I don't know anything about trusses but I'll give it a shot at this one section outlined in blue and red where the tray ceiling is ion the left side I was thinking that there should be a vertical 2x first and then the horizontal piece going across the whole length and then the angled pieces for the tray all with gussets but I didn't draw them in. Would this be possible?
Also, I drew this and posted it a while back about Vaulted Trusses/Scissor Truss with a higher pitch let's say a 9/12 on the outside and a 6/12 on the inside. I drew this picture with the pitches being the same on the outside and the inside.
You said something about it might work depending on the span. I guess my question is how far of a span could you go depending on the pitch and snow loads if this truss is possible?
No connector on W13
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Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
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Well Boss, it looks like you finally got the plates in there correctly.
I don't see any heel heights, but by now I've figured out that I'll need to pay you and extra 1k or so to get that type of heavy information.
The only thing my pea sized brain would question is the need for lacing on the w8 member and none on the w7 or w9 or w 12 member.
I'm not even going to ask for the plate height at either end because I know that would be too complicated to ask for too. I can't afford another 1k for that information either.
Oh yeah, I noticed that there isn't any indication of which is the front or rear, or left side or right side, but oh well, we'll figure that out somehow.
Send me those dog bones from the first few truss questions!
blue
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
"...question is the need for lacing on the w8 member and none on the w7 or w9 or w 12 member."
W4 and W8 are in compression. W7 and W9 are in tension. W12 is in compression, but the forces are small enough it doesn't need a brace.
"I'm not even going to ask for the plate height at either end because I know that would be too complicated to ask for too."
I cut the heel heights off because they weren't relavant to this problem.
Your smart-a$$ed cracks about paying for additional info are not appreciated or helpful. As I told you, I would be HAPPY to provide this info to anyone who asked me about it on the jobs I work on.
If you're having trouble getting info out of supliers up there, you're going to have to talk to them or your GCs. Bitching at me isn't going to help.
I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure [Clarence Darrow]
Your smart-a$$ed cracks about paying for additional info are not appreciated or helpful. As I told you, I would be HAPPY to provide this info to anyone who asked me about it on the jobs I work on.
If you're having trouble getting info out of supliers up there, you're going to have to talk to them or your GCs. Bitching at me isn't going to help.
Umm Boss, take a chill pill. If you cant take a little joke, just say so.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Thre's no way I could have told from the tone of your post that you were kidding around. I cna ony take a joke when I KNOW it's a joke.
There's too much blood in my caffeine system.
Boss, I thought the 1k figure for the five seconds of information was outrageous enough for you to know that I was being facetious.
Like I've said many times in here. Some of the truss companies put out a very thorough package of info and we are their biggest proponents. Other companies treat the dissemination of information in a cavalier manner and they get badmouthed at every opportunity. Some of the lumber companys continue to use their favorite truss company, and I explicitly tell lumber buyers to check out the competition and explain that the truss suppliers deliver superior service and less problems occur during the rough frame process because of that superior service.
In that regard, I'm not joking.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
"I thought the 1k figure for the five seconds of information was outrageous enough for you to know that I was being facetious."
Being as I told you repeatedly that it's a lot more than 5 seconds worth of work, I didn't see any humor in it at all.
Like I said, I'm always happy to provide info whenever asked. But it's not something that takes 5 seconds.
"Some of the truss companies put out a very thorough package of info and we are their biggest proponents. Other companies treat the dissemination of information in a cavalier manner and they get badmouthed at every opportunity."
Works for me. The people who are helping you out deserve some word of mouth advertising. I hope you've also told THEM you appreciate their efforts.
Q: What is the difference between a flashing red traffic light and a flashing yellow traffic light?
A: The color.
I hope you've also told THEM you appreciate their efforts.
If I ever see or talk to one of THEM, I'll certainly commend them for their good deeds and chastise those that hide the facts. I'll also ask them how much time it adds to calculate their heel heigts. I just thought it was a basic figure/fact needed to build the trusses. I'm guessing that it's a number that is automatically calculated within the software somewhere, but they are choosing NOT to print it out and send it on the spec sheet reports.
I find it odd that they started automatically sending out the spec sheets with the trusses, so the carpenters will have some paperwork. Yes, they send a truss layout plan too. In the spec sheet, they include about 50 line items of information that we DON'T need, yet fail to include a coupla of key items that are CRITICAL to our installation. I also know that the truss salesguys/engineers/planners/designers/ dont like to come to the jobsite and advise us of how we screwed up. It's a waste of time that they don't get compensated for, yet, they somehow don't ever figure out that CLEAR, LEGIBLE, UNDERSTANDABLE, THOROUGH information would go a long, long way toward eliminating needless mistakes.
Someday, I'll take pictures of the two ends of the spectrum that I'm talking about. One truss company sends a comprhehensive booklet that includes every bit of information that I could possibly want. They include a large color coded layout. They include a schedule of hangars and the location of each is easy to follow and understand as indicated on the layout sheet. All the plate heights and heels are clearly stated. Internal bearing walls are noted and colored. Telephone numbers and contact people are stated. The book is clearly printed and not copied for the 100th time. Every letter and number is legible. They even include a separate list of each truss, with it pictured and all the pertinent details (heel, plate height, span, pitch,). This allows me to quickly take a peek at the truss of my choosing and I get to quickly make jobsite decisions without having to flip through a 200 page wad of spec sheets that are prone to blowing away on a windy winter day.
Yes Boss, I think I remember praising that particular truss guy and I also remember telling the lumber company that I prefer using that truss company and would be refering them to anyone that asks.
I won't even go into the other end of the spectrum. Suffice to say that we are lucky to get a truss layout plan and if they do include any numbers that might indicate the heel heights, they probably won't be legible.
Oh well, another day in the life of a guy crawling in the mud.
blue Just because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!