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Thanks for the reply Gabe. I don’t think we are quite on the same page. I think from your reply you are talking about after the contract- I am looking at before- when you are questioning every fact and figure- and just know that there are ten guys just as good as you and maybe they bid a dollar a foot less and how in the hell can you compete… when do you know that you are at that critical point where what you say gets you the job?
Honestly- I am as good as it gets in the field- I have the patience to achieve perfection- but I suck out loud on the bidding/ promotion end. My way or the highway don’t sell many jobs- so how do you know when your bid is right and when to shut up?…
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thanks everybody.
everything you've posted I already know and it's good to see you feel that way too...still I am slow and have a hard time charging what I should. I continue to learn...
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> I continue to learn...
Join the club.
Rich Beckman
*When no one gives you any work then you know you are to high. The art is getting just short of that point. One thing I missed is the connection between patience and perfection.An old man I once worked for said anyone can build you a chair if you give them long enough.The longer I'm in this business the more there seems to be to learn. Skip
*Hi Doug,I've grown up in this business and have earned my living doing it since 1966 and I can honestly tell you that the feeling of questioning my quotes and trying to second guess my competitors is still with me.I think that I've even qualified for the record regarding mistakes in a tender, but life goes on and I still worry about every price that I submit.Sometimes, clients will want you and only you to quote a job, and I still worry about my prices. I do the work and find myself doing extras because I'm concerned about giving value to the client.We strive for quality and we live under the pressure of maintaining our honesty and integrity.Hang in there,Gabe
*doug.... one way to GET OVER IT..is to go back and job cost some of your projects....when i do that i ALWAYS find that i did not make as much as i had originally figured...i always go the extra mile... or their was some cost that i can't recover.. or the labor took longer than i had figured...this helps to reinforce my confidence that MY numbers are right and everyone else's numbers are just THEIR numbers.. they have nothing to do with what i am bidding on...(((paint a door))) i'm bidding on scraping , priming, caulk and two coats finish with my carpenters...if they wanted a painter, they should have got a bid from a painter...if my competition hasn't been in business long enough to know his cost of business... why should i try to match him...if someone is bidding roofs based on the going rate.. why do i want to do that roof ?everything i bid is based on my estimate of what it will cost US to do the job.. and cover our overhead.. and make a profit....if the customer thinks they can get teh same job for less... they're wrong... or the contractor is wrong..it ain't the same job.. or the contractor is not getting his price...it took twenty years of looking at my tax returns to wake up and figure that out... if you can't get your price.. don't do the work...if they pay your price... they're getting good value for their money....b but hey, whadda i no ?
*Doug,I think Gabe has, as usual, summed up what most of us go through trying to stay competitive and still do quality work.It's just part of the life we lead,and if you care about what you do get used to felling this way.Vince
*This has got to be one of the best thread subjects I have ever seen here. I am in my 13th year of self-employment and I still kill myself over this stuff. Although I learned abig lesson once when I was so busy that I didn't want any more work so I started bidding high on the new stuff coming at me. Funny thing was that I was getting the jobs. So now if I think I am high, chances are I am right on the money.Ever wish you could review the bids against you, just to get a better understanding of it all? Then there is the point of bidding to do a job the right way and the next guy bids the job the quick-fix way. I got a story about this but I ain't in the mood to type the whole thing now.Pete
*This is great! I'm normal- who woulda taken that bet? Gabe absolutely nailed everything I was thinking and what I constantly go through when bidding.Quality, quality, quality- it ain't everything- it's the only thing. It becomes distressing to strive for excellence, achieve it and find out you forgot to pay yourself.I changed my bidding thought process because of info from this forum. Again I continue to learn...I walked away from this most recent bid thinking it was ridiculously high, came back two hours later and reviewed it- added five hundred dollars and submitted it. ( thank you Jim Blodgett) Went to bed certain that I would not get it- I just came home with the deposit check and signed contract- also want me to replace some windows and build some bookcases...This whole making money thing is kinda fun...
*I would guess from your change of heart that you wouldn't mind buying a round for the rest of us that still feel the way you used to.
*Doug, At the risk of oversimplifying the answer ( and believe me I overcomplicate everthing ) you get over that feeling that your bid is too high when...( and this goes along the lines of what Mike said ) When you have the confidence and experience to give a bid that is your bid. Honestly, I could care less what the other bids are. I won't bore you as to why they are irrelevant. Tom
*Cal-I'm certain I will go thru this on the next bid and the next and the next- no change of heart- just easier to take with the promise of profit at the end... step over to the tavern and drink up my friend...
*Working on it TB. That confidence can be elusive till you track jobs closely- I've never done much of that...changing , changing ,changing...
*Gabe:Never made the 50%; but had the distinct pleasure of returing from a bid opening and telling my boss that we got the job for a little over 6 million. The the bad news... the engineering estimate and all the other bids were clustered just over 8 million.He did start to clear out his desk.Just thinking about the good old daysBob
*i . . . confidence can be elusive till you track jobs closelyI think that is a big part of the learning curve--making yourself track jobs. Database/spreadsheet s/w makes it a lot easier. If that tracking thing is boring to you, you're likely to push it aside. Hire a high-school math/computer "whiz" to set it up for you.Another thing I've found (being on both ends of this type of situation--i.e., buying or selling), is that integrity counts, and people w/integrity know this. You do have to live w/yourself, after all, and you are not in business to lose money. Sure, some jerks overbid and underperform. A good job done at a fair price will, according to some, translate to at least three word-of-mouth recommendations, while a bad job done at any price will spread to at least 11. When bids come in w/wild variations, the consumer should make sure apples are being compared w/apples; when that is so, the consumer should inquire why, and the contractor should be able to explain. (This happened to us re printing--one bidder was subbing and didn't tell us. And that sub was also subbing!) It's too bad people don't have a flourescent mark or something when lying.
*Gabe said something several posts ago that rung true. The extra stuff we add it that we weren't planning to do but had to be done to make the job perfect kills me somethimes. I've got the whole job planned in my head and then I should be done, might be done by the other guy's standards but I end up seeing something that's not quite right. So I'm there an extra day or two. Not making money.So I bid high now and once in a while, I get to a job and breath a sigh of releaf that I've got the time and money to do it right. That's a much better feeling than having to hurry and worry about getting done to get paid.
*For the record, I agonise over every price I submit, rolling it this way and that, coming at it from different directions. And that period of finalising a price, submitting it, and selling it, is my least favorite part of the business. I hate it.Anyway, a friend got to know a fairly high profile lawyer well enough to ask him how the hell could he justify asking the rate he did. The guy said he kept a picture of his family on the desk, and he'd take a look whenever he got any qualms about what he was about to charge some one. I've got a picture of my little girl as a screen saver on my computer; when I go to write in the price, I take a look and try to fight down the urge to knock some off.It's really hard; coming up with a price for something that's never been done before, and being fair to both parties.
*DougLike everyone else, I still get that knot in my stomach everytime I submit a bid wondering "Is it too high, Did I forget something, ...." and then I think to myself "Self..it's too late to start worrying now."The thing I make sure I do is list everything I'm going to do. Take a re-roof for instance. List everything.. New flashing, new drip edge, list brand name of shingles, warranty period, (if I notice some bad facia in places, I list replace damaged facia. List everything so they know just what they will be getting. We quality builders have a tendancy to repair something on a job that others may not and the homeowner needs to know that. Like others, I have some horror stories about bids I lost only to have customers call me later to say that they should have gone with me or can I come back and fix the other builders screw-ups.Vince
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I'm printing this thread to show my partners. We have this discussion before we bid on any decent size job and usually a couple of times on the job site. We're learning, but still wondering why a waitress in a bar (though she might ahve a graduate degree in political science) can make more money than we do, with over 100 years of experience in our trade among the four of us. Carpenters never get tips, you know.
*Doug (and all of my self-employed brothers) Sometimes I think that all of us need to stop, clear our heads, and think about what we are doing to ourselves. DO WE REALLY WANT TO BE REMEMBERED AS THE LOW BIDDER? IF WE WERE THE CUSTOMER, WOULD WE WANT TO ENTRUST OUR HOMES AND HARD EARNED MONEY TO THE CHEAPEST GUY IN TOWN? SHOULD WE STUDY OUR COSTS OF DOING BUSINESS AND OUR OVERHEAD AND PRICE OUR WORK ACCORDINGLY REGARDLESS OF WHAT OUR "BID CRAZY" COMPETITION IS DOING? WE (MYSELF INCLUDED) NEED TO STRIVE TO WOO OUR CUSTOMERS IN BY OUR HIGH QUALITY WORK, GOOD DESIGNS AND IDEAS, AND OTHER PROFESSIONAL TRAITS, NOT OUR LOW, LOW, DISCOUNTED, BARGAIN, ROCK BOTTOM PRICES THAT ONLY MAKE US GO BROKE, KILL OUR SPIRIT AND OPTIMISM, AND DEGRADE OUR TRADES AND PROFESSIONS. Enough of this philosophy cause I got to get the hell going. Sealed bids are due in at 9:30 sharp! See all of you guys in the poor house.
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Someone once told me that if you get every job you bid, you're not charging enough. We all know that feeling of satisfaction when the job is done and the customer is happy and we always hope that we have been properly compensated. We all dread getting to the end of a job and knowing that we have been there too long and haven't figured in every little thing. I do a lot of remodel work. I always try to include in my sped everything that I have foreseen that needs done and try to include disclaimers to cover what is unseen. There are a lot of uncertainties, and we must cover ourselves for them. When you look at the guy who works on your car or runs your phone lines or all the other things you see daily that you are being charged $40-100/Jr, just imagine the bargain your clients are getting for hiring you. Imagine in this day and age, paying fair money for someone to show up at your house and conscientiously do what is requested to the best of their ability and look out for your best interest.
SHUT UP DHILLON, You're BABBLING!! Sorry, got a little carried away. You know what you are worth, so charge it. It makes a much better working relationship when everyone knows where they stand. Enough said.
Kimball
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Years ago when I was installing yard barns for this company my helper and I did get a $20 each tip from the homeowner-- we put up his barn in a cold drizzly rain but got it installed when he wanted it.
There is a remodeling company in our town that's always busy. Their name, "WE AIN'T CHEAP". They attract a lot of attention with that name and have built a reputation that when they do it it's done right.
*As someone who tries to know her limitations, I have been the person who is soliciting bids for those things I cannot do. My advice is to bid your price, but be informative to the homeowner as to what is included in that price. When I look at bids I throw out the bids that are way too high (don't want the job) and too low (want it too much) and look at the middle. If there are bids which are well broken down, they float to the top of the pile. People who make it easier to get references (good ones) are worth more to me, and I'll pay more for their services. I would think that most quality contractors do not want to be the low-bidder. This is more likely (I would think) to net the cheap customer who will nickle and dime you to death, withholding payment on imagined problems.
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When do you get over that feeling that your bid is too high- what were you thinking- nobody will pay that much but you can't make any money working for less- crap CRAP CCRRAAPP!!!!
*Hi Doug,Your question - When do you get over that feeling that your bid is too high?Answer - When you find out that you were 50% lower than the next 5 guys who only had a 5% spread between them.Believe me, this is the exact moment that you start to sweat about what you may have forgotten in your costing.GabeIn the bidding war, some days are diamond and some days are coal.
*I usually get over it temporarily right after I give them a price and without hesitation they say "when can you start?" But the feeling seems to pop up again for the next bid.I think part of my problem is I'm thinking there is no way I would pay that much for someone to build these cabinets, that deck, hang this door etc. Well of course I wouldnt, I'm a carpenter, I can do it for myself. I have kind of a skewed perspective of what something might be worth to someone who has no clue of how to do it. I'm always amazed at what people will spend on luxury's in this business.A friend and I were talking about this subject once and he summed it up with "I'm starting to realize there are a whole lot of people with a lot more money than me"
*Chuck said it....I keep having to remind myself, that it only seem like alot of money because I would never pay someone else to do it. After all, it is easy (relativly speaking), if you know how.
*Thanks for the reply Gabe. I don't think we are quite on the same page. I think from your reply you are talking about after the contract- I am looking at before- when you are questioning every fact and figure- and just know that there are ten guys just as good as you and maybe they bid a dollar a foot less and how in the hell can you compete... when do you know that you are at that critical point where what you say gets you the job?Honestly- I am as good as it gets in the field- I have the patience to achieve perfection- but I suck out loud on the bidding/ promotion end. My way or the highway don't sell many jobs- so how do you know when your bid is right and when to shut up?...
*I have to agree. I thought maybe I was the only one that felt that way. I've been in business for over 15 years, and still get that feeling once in a while-"I sure wouldn't pay someone that amount of money to do that project, it's so simple". But when the client smiles from ear to ear and says they are really satisfied, what can you say.
*doug,How often do you bid a job and not get it? The last job I didn't get I almost took the wife out to celebrate! I know the guy I was bidding to tends to want cheap, but still good. Now I know I have some numbers that are probably realistic.Generally, everytime I get a job, I go back to my base numbers and raise them (although the $260 per square for roofing is probably unrealistic...that was just dumb luck). When I don't get a few jobs in a row, I'll guess I'm too high.The above points about "it seems like a lot of money only because you know how to do it" is very true...it has taken me a long time to figure that out.A further point is that some people won't hire you if you come in too low. They believe you get what you pay for, and if they want the best, they're actually hoping for a high bid.Finally, a good friend told me once that if you're getting every job you bid, you will soon be broke.Rich Beckman