Where does the plumbing and electric go?
leftisright
| Posted in General Discussion on
Just bought a new house that’s going to need some work. It’s on a crawl foundation and I know the first big project is going to seal up the crawl space and create a conditioned crawl space.
Anyways, since there are no stupid questions…..what is the usual practice in crawl space construction for hvac, plumbing, abd electrical. Looks like this one has the wirng in the attic, plumbing in the crawl and the ductwork in the attic. Is this the best practices way to do it?
Answers and comments welcome
Replies
Your question very well could benefit from knowing where in the world you live.................region wise.
Fill in the profile.
thanks.
A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Overland Park, Kansas the 3rd biggest city in Kansas....west of Kansas City MO.
I'm just curious becasue it is all going to need to be redone at some point.
Supposed to have R45 or something in the attic but only got about three inches of cellulose now and need to address the ventiliation problems first.
But......we're not worrying about that since it will be covered in eight inches of snow tomorrow.
"But......we're not worrying about that since it will be covered in eight inches of snow tomorrow."Not according to Gary Lezak.Personally I think that it is a big mistake putting insulating the attic and then put the HVAC equipment in unconditioned spaced and then venting the attic so that you have "outside air moving over the leaky ducts and poorly insulated HVAC equipment.Best to seal the vents and insulated the underside of the roof.If you do that you can put plumbing up there also. At least the supplies, drains don't work too good..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Well I'm up in Chillicothe MO tonight so I don;t know what Gary Lezak said but I have run into him at the Depot and Lowes in Shawnee,
Hope I dont have to follow a snowplow home tommorow.
I haven't decided what to do with the rook yet as there are ventilation issues and we need an attic exhaust fan.
Not according to Gary Lezak.
I don't know Mr Lezak but I hope the hell he's right!
I'm heading to the panhandle of OK tomorrow and I don't need to see 8" of anything white in the state of Kansas!
Doug
Carry your snow shoes.That was only for the immediate area.The forecast was for a dusking to 2", but just south of here 4-6".Today I was working about 10 miles north of my house and only saw a few flurries. As I got closer to home the snow was comes down enough to leave tracks on the road. And the traffice report mentioned a place about 15-20 SE where a road was closed do to near whiteout conditions..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
a road was closed do to near whiteout conditions.
That'll work well for me, no way to hit anybody if the roads are closed!
I don't have a choice, gotta be in the panhandle tomorrow night/Saturday at the latest.
Doug
leftisright, couple of up front questions and a couple of answers.
How deep is your crawl space? Is it ventilated or insulated in some way? I'm assuming that your furnace/AC in is the house(attic space)? How old is the home? Is it a single story? Does everything work right now? Is the crawl space dry or protected from moisture(plastic sheathing or concrete)? Main floor insulated? Lot of questions but necessary.
As to "normal", a lot depends on the builder of the home as to the use of the crawl space. The plumbing is a given in that all the drain lines can be dropped down and connected with ease. Same with the water supply(properly insulated). Electrical can be down there as well but needs protection from moisture. Probably why its coming down from above. Depending on the conditions down there the HVAC can be, as you have, dropping in from above. Do you have a ducted return under the floor? [Probably not].
The most you may want to do is seal/dry up the space, properly insulate it, check for "bugs" and critters and upgrade your systems as you can. That is unless you are thinking of some future changes. Most of what you described was pretty normal
Just a bit of info. Hope it helped.
ciao, ted
It is a one story over a crawl about 24 inches deep. Everythinh works but not well. The current crawl is vented but poorly. Have some drainage issues under front stoop but tore out bushes in front of foundation and regraded to get water to drain from house.
Only major issue right now is that there is nu slope, none in the laundry room drain. Pukes everytime washer runs. Line cleaner guy says the floors gotta come up to fix. This laundry room is part of garage floor slab.
"This laundry room is part of garage floor slab."
Ouch! That could get ugly. I'm guessing but you probably have cast iron drain lines with a minimal slope. Do you know if these drains run into the crawl space and then out to the street? Do you have a separate laundry room in the garage?
With 24" of crawl space, poorly vented and probably moist, it's pretty obvious that the utilities were laid out so they don't have to go through the crawl. (The way it was done back in the day).
3" of cellulose is as good as none. [Found it in my current home] And with the duct work up there you've got few choices. I'm quessing again but I'd venture to say that you have a draw thru type furnace and that the return is in the crawl and the main supply is up in the attic...and the returning air gets nice and cold as it comes back...probably the same in the attic. Are your supply air registers installed high on the walls in your rooms? (That would tell you that the ducts don't go down too far. So unless you want to redo all the ducts from below and then run them into each room...well, you can quess the rest.
Installation of insulation in the attic comes down to the attic's use. R-38 minimum. Laid out on the ceiling and over the ducts, no problem. Ventilation by fan. In between the rafters makes it a bit more complex unless the rafters are 2x12s...allowing for venting from the soffits to the ridge. It wouldn't be a bad idea to start by taping the ducts as necessary and then wrapping or covering them in the attic batt You can always "unwrap".
Back to the crawl for a sec. Is there a "ground cover" of some kind in there? Plastic or concrete or whatever? How much venting do you have. A couple of these cast aluminum, 8x12" types or something larger? The builder may have anticipated a lot of moisture down there. [As you said the ground is kind of flat around the house]. If you want to seal up that space you will need to control that moisture some way.
Running long again. You got your Home work. :-}
ciao, ted. (formerly stationed at Fort Leonard Wood, Rolla, MO)
The floor drain is cast iron and runs under the slab and then hooks up under the crawl with the drain for the kitchen. Had to have this line snaked and the plumber said, "Looks like there's no slope to that drain line in the laundry room". To fix it will require $$$$$$. Think I can live with a little gurgling of water up through the drain.
The crawl has an approx 4 X 16 vent every ten feet. Have of them have been blocked off. There is no vapor barrier of the ground but there is plastic stapled to the floor joist and insulation stuffed between the floor joists.
There is so much #### in he attic that it is hard see what insulation there is. the only current ventilation is trianular vents in the end wall with a fan that doesn't work in the end wall. There are alos two wind turbines. It may be possilble to add venting to the soffits but they are very narrow. Attic temperatures know exceed 130 degrees in the summer.
"Attic temperatures know exceed 130 degrees in the summer."
Ouch again! Sounds like that kind of heat has been a problem for a while. Had the same problem and one solution is to find a way to get soffit vents in there somewhere. Assumption on my part would be that you have about 2 to 3" of overhang and a gutter on the face of that. Tough call. Making sure the existing vents are clear is a no brainer as well as getting a working fan but the venting will still be limited (clean air has to be drawn in from somewhere).
Is your home all siding, or brick on the main level with siding in the end gables? I have seen a home with the horizontal vent installed above the wall bearing height and concealed under the siding. Bit radical.
You have "well vented" crawl space. Unless a ground cover can be installed that doesn't cost an arm and leg then you may have to live with it. Someone has already done the option that allows for a more liveable space above and provides moisture protection. If you were to seal all the vents then the ground cover is a must. Kind of a tough call there.
Once you get up in that attic a bit more I'm sure you'll find some answers.
ciao. ted
You must live close to me. The eaves are about 2-3 inches deep and then the gutters. The siding is actually the best part about the house, it is cedar shakes and is original to the house. All I gotta do is figure out how to get all the crappy azz paint jobs off to get it painted good this summer.
As fars as the attic goes there is one vent on the sidewall with a HUGE old fan that doesn't work anymore and another vent on the other end. From what I've researched it doesn't seem that the fan would be adequate to get fresh air in.
Sigh........and there was no snow today to cover up the dirt that I call my front yard.
J.
Supposed to get a bit more than a dusting tonight over here in Northern Ohio but....around here anything less than 4" is a dusting. But we have awakened to 8" of partly cloudy on the ground too!
As to your eaves. I make a living as an architect but I also do some construction management. What I like to work on are older historic homes but I study details and time periods of any house I work on and some I just drive by. Good for business. Your home was probably built sometime in the late '40's or '50's. Good construction, comfortable for the time, for a family. Everything you've told me about the crawl space and the utility locations lead me in that direction. There is little doubt in my mind that the rafters end at the face of the sheathing and a one or two 2x's and a 1x fascia board were nailed up for the gutter. If you are of a mind I would suggest a little exploration at the first opportunity. You may be able to cut out a few 8" wide sections without cutting into the rafters and install a screen and then put back a new section of 1x. A lot of the solution depends on what you find.
Suggest you throw out your question as to how to remove those layers of old paint as a general question in the Construction Technique forum. I did when I was/am painting my place. Difference for me was that the siding was white cedar clapboard and it is 170years old. Incredible resource and great solutions. Results so far are excellent! Hey, maybe better, or quicker, there must be archived articles from FHB or forums in here somewhere.
Those triangular vents at the ridge. Their effective area is minimal. Installed more as a token compliance than anything else. That old attic fan may have been something used somewhere else. Assuming a roof pitch of 8/12 or less an attic fan with a capacity of 1100cfm will handle an attic sq. footage of up to 1300sq ft. One of the "mushroom" (flat, round, looks like a low...well you can quess the rest) types is about 18" in diameter, 14" diameter roof opening. Or...for inside mounting find a unit that has about the same capacity, voltage. Their usually about 14"diameter in their own housing. But you will need to install a bigger gable end louver(at both ends).
You can hit one of the big box retailers and find one, direct drive unit, standard house voltage. See if you can remove the existing ridge louvers and replace them. DId you say you were thinking of a new roof? Definitely a continuous ridge vent for the whole length.
Did I mention that its been in the single digits around here for about the last two weeks? I will take a foot of snow and high 20's over this (expletive deleted) cold. My wwho-haa is going to break off one of these days.
ciao, ted
Don't forget that he has HVAC in the attic.I have no idea of what condition that it is in. If the equipment AND DUCTS are in bad shape then he might end up wanting to relocate this to the crawlspace, if there is enough space.But with HVAC in the attic the last thing that you want is more ventalation.He needs to look at the whole picture. If HVAC is to see in the attic then look at a sealed attic space with no ventalation to the outside..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
One thing that hasn't been established is if his unit is in the attic space. I'm inclined to believe that he has a small utility closet on his main floor with his supply going up into the attic and his return either in the crawl or he just has a louvered door to the utility room.
If in fact his unit is in the attic then his decisions are going to be different...and so will the advice. Yes, ventilation up there then becomes almost a non-issue. He should have some just to keep the summer temps down under his stated 130degrees but also to control the inevitable moisture that would get trapped up there.
Had a house with all the HVAC units (4each, huge house!) up under the roof. The Owner had all kinds of problems, first the A/C wasn't good enough in summer and the heat of the units kept the space so warm that he had huge ice buildup problems in the winter. In spite of the very confined space we were able to isolate/contain the units and insulate the ductwork (much more effectively) and...then....get ventilation through there. Worked very well but it was expensive. (House sold about a year later for 4.5 million...wasn't worth that much)
Tough call without seeing the space and studying the layout and circulation pattern.
ciao. ted
A laundry sink can cure the washer problem.
Put sink next to washer and run the washer drain line into the sink, sink drain into washer drain. You will probably need to cut the washer standpipe to install the sink outlet.
This is common in older houses, the washer empties a lot of water quickly into a small old pipe. The sink will hold what the drain can't handle.
Joe H