Got a BR window that has had enough water leaking in that it rotted out the sheathing. My inclination is to scrape out the old, hard caulk along the bottom of the window and replace it, but I don’t know for sure if that is where the leak was coming from. The caulk on the other windows looks about the same and they aren’t rotted out.
So where’s the leak?
jt8
“One of the fondest expressions around is that we can’t be the world’s policeman. But guess who gets called when suddenly someone needs a cop.” — Colin Powell
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Get out the hose.
Looking at the pics I'd be more suspect of the brick then the window.
Where's the tarpaper?
So you're saying to stand outside hosing the heck out of it until water shows up somewhere inside? Hmm, I like the idea, but it is about 10F right now and getting down to -3 tonight.
And I haven't found any tarpaper yet. Black fiberboard crap and plywood.
jt8
"One of the fondest expressions around is that we can't be the world's policeman. But guess who gets called when suddenly someone needs a cop." -- Colin Powell
No tarpaper?
Well there is a place to start... brick ain't waterproof.
Supposed to get above freezing Monday, I'll try the hose test then.
jt8
"One of the fondest expressions around is that we can't be the world's policeman. But guess who gets called when suddenly someone needs a cop." -- Colin Powell
west wall? or south? - wind driven rain/moisture infiltrating?
it's gotta be coming from under the windows, since the sash/frame don't show deterioration and the overhang would preclude water entering at the top - - is the slope on the brick going the right way?
do I see a bit of plastic in the second pict, between the window frame and rough framing? what's up with that?
west wall? or south? - wind driven rain/moisture infiltrating?
North wall.
is the slope on the brick going the right way?
I want to say yes. I think I checked all the slopes on the window brick shortly after buying the place, but I don't remember for sure, so will check that.
jt8
"One of the fondest expressions around is that we can't be the world's policeman. But guess who gets called when suddenly someone needs a cop." -- Colin Powell
Check for felt/dripedge under the shingles overhead... that soffit looks suspicious and you may be getting H2O running in behind the facia.
Troy Sprout
Socialism in general has a record of failure so blatant that only an intellectual could ignore or evade it."
-- Thomas Sowell
I hope to redo that soffit when the roof gets done. I kinda like overhangs even if it is the north side. jt8
"One of the fondest expressions around is that we can't be the world's policeman. But guess who gets called when suddenly someone needs a cop." -- Colin Powell
I love big soffits... mine looked that way in a few places and the cause was missing felt coupled with missing dripedge and a threesome of a painter who left the nails exposed from his roof scaffold.
IMO Every house should have big old soffits. Troy Sprout
Socialism in general has a record of failure so blatant that only an intellectual could ignore or evade it."-- Thomas Sowell
I'd like to put a really large overhang on, however I don't have enough freeboard to do so. The roof is too low.
Somewhere I've got a book that lets you calculate your overhangs so that you can pick the day of the year (twice a year) when the sun will begin to creep in. So if you're trying to keep the summer sun out but let in the winter sun, you can do so. Which I've never utilized because I like to be able to get stock soffit materials. ;)
jt8
"One of the fondest expressions around is that we can't be the world's policeman. But guess who gets called when suddenly someone needs a cop." -- Colin Powell
John,
Here's a stab in the dark. Are there any other fixed sash in those other windows?
Specifically in Marvins, there's the same vinyl weatherstrip in the fixed as in the operating sash. When the strip fails, water comes in. If it can get behind and out the bottom of the frame it could wet the sheeting. Usually the frame shows deterioration, but in some cases it don't.
Or, the brick ledge doesn't go back under as far on this window and that caulk sure looks bogus.
A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Specifically in Marvins, there's the same vinyl weatherstrip in the fixed as in the operating sash. When the strip fails, water comes in. If it can get behind and out the bottom of the frame it could wet the sheeting. Usually the frame shows deterioration, but in some cases it don't.
They are Pella double pane windows with removable inner pane (circa 1971). They may suffer from the same issue as the Marvins. Is there any simple way to figure out if the weatherstripping has failed. If the stripping on that left window failed, that might explain why that section below it is rotted out and the stuff to the right looks like it has gotten wet.
In the second pic I can see plastic/poly in the rough opening below the window. My guess is that they took a strip of poly from the underside of the window, in front of the 2x4 of the rough opening and then it stopped and the rot starts from there down. Seems like an odd detail to include if you weren't going to just tarpaper or plastic that whole section. That much tarpaper wouldn't have cost $1 and wouldn't have taken 5 mins to tack up. I just don't understand people who take shortcuts like these.
jt8
"One of the fondest expressions around is that we can't be the world's policeman. But guess who gets called when suddenly someone needs a cop." -- Colin Powell
If it were me (thank God it's not) I'd be looking at the top more.
Gutter looks high, roof looks ?able + that just seems to be where I find 99% of leaks
NAIL IT !!!
I hate those brick sills.The 70`s condo complex where I was maintainence manager for a short while had all their windows done this way.A lot of them had water penetration problems.By the look of the moss on the brick in your picture,I would say that this area gets hit hard when it rains and stays damp for a long time(out of the wind and sun).Use a sealant on the brick(don`t remember product`s name) and for gods sake fix your caulk. Salutations from the great white north.
John,
I like the hose/leak test. Maybe March. I would start by stripping all of the old caulk. Sometimes the leaks are above the window then shows up at the window.
Charm and beauty of an old house. You can fix it if you find the source.
Chuck Slive, work, build, ...better with wood
a brick wall can wick a lot of water.In second or third photo, I think I see water stains on the inside of the brick. no tarpaper as there should have been. Rotted sheathing and moldy walls are a common thing when brick veneer walls are done that way, especially when weepholes are ignored.
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a brick wall can wick a lot of water.
I replaced the cripples and sheathing underneath the K/DR window due to termite damage, however there was one spot on the sheathing that looked like it had gotten wet. When I pulled the old sheathing out, I found that when they had mortared the bricks in that spot, a large amount of mortar had squeezed through and was in direct contact with the sheathing. That is probabaly a good wicking example. Right through the brick/mortar and into the plywood.
I think I see water stains on the inside of the brick.
Yes, I think there are water stains on those bricks. And possibly the ones on the left are more stained. I can verify that tonight. Does that staining mean that water is running along those bricks and not just wicking through?
no tarpaper as there should have been.
As I mentioned to Calvin, I just don't understand why people take shortcuts like that. What did it save them, $10? They wouldn't have used a whole roll of tarpaper to paper all the plywood sections (corners & under windows). And it wouldn't have taken an hour to tarpaper all those areas. I can understand putting $100 windows in instead of $1000, but I don't understand $10.
jt8
"One of the fondest expressions around is that we can't be the world's policeman. But guess who gets called when suddenly someone needs a cop." -- Colin Powell
Because $10 x ten houses = $100.00, and then 100 houses =$1000.00
Then you figure you can save ten dollars on every step of the building and build 100 houses and retire to the Bahamas on you sail boat, or make your investors rich .
Done all the time.
Can you see the back side of the brick sill from the hole inside? The mason more than likely cut the sill bricks in his hand with a hammer rather than a saw. I've seen some that were cut so that they just barely protrude back under the window. When the caulk fails, all the water has to do is what gravity wants it to do. Drip. With no felt behind it there's no second line of defense. And as was mentioned, brick will saturate when subjected to enough water and drip out the other side.
http://logancustomcopper.com
http://grantlogan.net/
It's like the whole world's walking pretty and you can't find no room to move. - the Boss
I married my cousin in Arkansas - I married two more when I got to Utah. - the Gourds
Can you see the back side of the brick sill from the hole inside?
I can see 'em between the rough opening and where they built up the ro opening. I'll see if I can take a measurement there and down below and figure out how far back they are.
View Imagejt8
"One of the fondest expressions around is that we can't be the world's policeman. But guess who gets called when suddenly someone needs a cop." -- Colin Powell
John. The only true way would be to remove the fixed sash, and then examine the weatherstrip. To do this on pellas...........and I can't be real positive-might check the detail in the Big #### 'd Manual that shows it (they have one at pella according to year).
But, in many cases, the inside stop comes out (again, can't be sure on these) some are glued and nailed. If you can cut the paint line of the shaped stop-it is wide and runs right up to the sash- and slip a putty knife in there for starters, then the thin Red Devil bar-more than one and proceed carefully up the stop.............either the heads or the sides are coped, they are not mitred. I can check in one of my later manuals if you want, as to which one is coped-do that one first. Once the stops are removed, there should be clips that can be unscrewed and the sash will come out-be carefull it doesn't fall out.
BUT!!!!!
there are some pellas' that they screwed the fixed sash from outside the jambs making it impossible to remove without destroying something.
I would look very closely at the brick sill not being back up under the window far enough-FIRST.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
the peple who do energy audets use smoke pencils to find the source of air infiltration, i have watched them do it and the pencils work real good
This is the kind of stuff we do all day (only on larger commercial projects). Lately I have started to do a lot more investigations on residential communities and condo complexes with extensive water infiltration and damage. A lot of my work is on masonry, stucco and EIFS homes.
Some other possibilities to consider -
Often the joints between the jamb and sill are not sealed very well and can be a potential source of water infiltration (looks like yours are heat welded?). More of an issue of double hungs with butt joints, but there could be a similar situation or failed 'weld'.
Also, are those individual windows that were mulled together in the field? If so then there is often a direct path for water to travel between the window frames (behind the snap cover) and drain behind the cladding. This is a very common problem in EIFS. (it's always blamed on the EIFS though, of course....) it could help to remove the snap cover, seal the gap and set the snap cover back in a bed of sealant.
Head flashing or drip cap is usually necessary to direct water traveling down the secondary barrier (felt, tyvek, etc..) out of the wall system, however the lack of a drip cap flashing shouldn't be too much of a concern in your situation because of the relative protection from the overhanging soffit.
Any idea how the window is flashed (if at all) to the sheathing? We like to see flexible flashing adhered to the sheathing and lapped over the nailing flanges or to the window frame. Is there perimeter sealant between the window frame and the brick? If so, what condition is it in?
Is there any evidence of moisture damage at locations other than under windows? As others have mentioned, if there is not an effective (or any) secondary barrier combined with a proper flashing and weep system, then you could simply have a case of the moisture traveling through the bricks (they're not waterproof) and getting to the sheathing where the gap is bridged by mortar droppings, etc. Flashing and weeping a cavity wall is critical for the proper performance of the cladding.
I'll second the vote against the sloping brick sill. Bricks do not make a good roof. At the least, that detail should be backed up with a fabricated metal flashing pan.
Is your white coating on all the remaining framing andd sheahing because of an existing mold problem or were you just being cautious?
Is your white coating on all the remaining framing andd sheahing because of an existing mold problem or were you just being cautious?
The house had been sitting vacant when the waterline froze and cracked open. The water ran for a few days before a neighbor called the law firm in charge of the property. Then they weren't too quick on getting someone over there to clean it up. So lots of mold. Then all the moist, moldy wood acted like a beacon to termites who had free reign for several years.
The IDPH guidelines for mold cleanup were to scrub the effected areas with a detergent, then come back and spray a disinfectant. I sometimes go overboard, so I scrubbed ALL the framing below the attic, they sprayed the bleach mixture disinfectant, then added my own waste of time/$ step of coating everything in Zinnsers anti-mold paint. That is the white you are seeing.
This window's area of damage looked like an isolated instance. It wasn't due to the house flood and wasn't due to the termites, so it has had to wait until the other two items were dealt with.
are those individual windows that were mulled together in the field?
I don't know if this window unit was created at the factory or in the field. From the inside it looks like three individuals joined together. Some of the outside trim goes across all three without a seam, but I don't know if that trim was added later or came that way.
Any idea how the window is flashed (if at all) to the sheathing?
I haven't yanked one of these units out, so don't know how they have them flashed. I can see a bit of plastic below the window, but that doesn't tell me anything.
Is there any evidence of moisture damage at locations other than under windows?
Not that I've noticed. I know there aren't any tender spots in the non-window plywood sheathing (because I'd hit it with a scrub brush, paint brush and would have found them). But keep in mind, they mostly used the black fiberboard crap, not plywood. They only put plywood where they had to.
then you could simply have a case of the moisture traveling through the bricks (they're not waterproof) and getting to the sheathing where the gap is bridged by mortar droppings, etc.
A spot I removed under the K/DR would fall under that description. On that piece, it looked water damaged, but was still solid (but was removed because of termite damage below it). The mortar had squeezed through and was in direct contact with the un-tarpapered plywood sheathing.
I think the window in question must have been leaking water into the room at some point, because the drywall was removed from that spot before I bought the place and started my journey.
View Image
jt8
"One of the fondest expressions around is that we can't be the world's policeman. But guess who gets called when suddenly someone needs a cop." -- Colin Powell
John, explain the discolored areas below, right and left on that window picture above. Was this what you saw when you first got there? Is this the same window we have talked about?A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
That last pic that shows drywall is the 'before' pic before I started working on the house. I go through and take a series of pics when I look at a house and then more pics prior to starting work so that i can start mapping things out. Having a lot of pics can save you a trip out to the house.
Yes, it is the same window. Since that is the only spot where the drywall was kicked out and rotted wood exposed, I was thinking that it must have been leaking or something to draw attention to it.
The discoloration on the wall could be from window leak or from when the house was flooded.
jt8
"One of the fondest expressions around is that we can't be the world's policeman. But guess who gets called when suddenly someone needs a cop." -- Colin Powell
John,Is this a new project house?Chuck S.live, work, build, ...better with wood
Is this a new project house?
No, this is the one I've been working on for over a year. I had to get to the big stuff (mold, termite damage) before I could get to the little things (leak around a window). This is BR2's window, and it is the only room I haven't run the Mooney blocking in. I wanted to make sure I identified the problem and solved it before it got covered up.
I've got about 200 of these little items, so it isn't like I have to fix any given one TODAY.. but if I don't get to them in the near future, they might hold up progress at some other point.jt8
"One of the fondest expressions around is that we can't be the world's policeman. But guess who gets called when suddenly someone needs a cop." -- Colin Powell
Looking at that I see a complete area of high potential water entry. Not just at the corners, but all along the bottom of the window. Check the depth of brick under the window and even the slope on that brick. Do a Mike Smith and hold the short stabila in one hand-take the picture with the other.
thanks.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
i don't know cal.... the skill-set for the one handed stabila / picture shot is a pretty big order
and he doesn't have his SAG card for the finger pic.
hey, sick of the dome yet ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike, early bird tomorrow morning. First Hour-10 bucks-all, and I mean all-you can hit. Lob Wedge Holiday.
so yes, sick of it.
be a month for you can stick a tee in the ground-if it got well above freezing tomorrow.
Current temp-maybe 10.
How bout you, go up to the one by Spring Hill?A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
no, i hate the dome.... maybe next week we'll catch a break in the weather and go back over to that par-3Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
If it wasn't for the snow, there'd be some good roll.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Just about everyone was right on this one. As Grant mentioned, the back of the brick sill looked like they had been roughly wacked with a hammer. The brick on the far left was about an 1/2-3/4" shorter than the others.
Sledge's hose test confirmed that this short brick was a problem area. Water just poured right in, and with the funky globs of old mortar, it spread out and would have been in direct contact with the sheathing in places.
After I'd dug some caulk out, I found another spot which had been plugged with caulk that was probably a problem in the past. Missing hunk of mortar where you could probably get a pencil through.
And then I stuck a light on the inside and looked for spots of light from the outside (it was after dark). That turned up a spot on the window trim that will also need caulk. I couldn't get a pic of the light test, so I simply circled those two spots in red on pic 11.
The window silicon caulk I've got wanted temp above 40, so I didn't get it re-caulked last night. Supposed to be in the 50's on Wednesday, so I will try to get to it then.
View Image
jt8
"Being powerful is like being a lady. If you have to tell people you are, you aren't. -- Margaret Thatcher
Silicone caulk is not the best choice with the masonry.
Find a high grade gunnable polyurethane, it will be compatable with the wood window and the masonry.
Vulkem, Pl Premium are just a couple of what is available.
AMEN to the Urethane caulk. Tremco Sealants (of which Vulkem is one) have quite a few colors for your enjoyment. Bonds to metal, wood and masonry real good.
Keep the tube warm and use a good gun. A bit of a learning curve-more is not better.
In a perfect world, you would get those brick off and reset deeper under the window.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
AMEN to the Urethane caulk. Tremco Sealants (of which Vulkem is one) have quite a few colors for your enjoyment. Bonds to metal, wood and masonry real good.
I've got a couple tubes of Vulkem116, but it is grey (and I was using it inside). Do you have a favorite that comes in white? (and that I might find at Lowes or Menards). I don't really care what I use as long as it works and doesn't look crappy.
Keep the tube warm and use a good gun. A bit of a learning curve-more is not better.
Dang.. more is easier. ;)
In a perfect world, you would get those brick off and reset deeper under the window.
In a perfect world, I'd replace the 30yo Pellas and rip out that brick sill and replace it with something else.
jt8
"Being powerful is like being a lady. If you have to tell people you are, you aren't. -- Margaret Thatcher
I'm going to assume that either of those would have PL in white, but can't guarantee it. Do you have a good masonry supply over in that neck of the woods? Might have to go get it at lunch.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Throw out your favorites in the order you like them and I'll try to get one as near the top of the list as I can find (assuming white).
jt8
"Being powerful is like being a lady. If you have to tell people you are, you aren't. -- Margaret Thatcher
John, if you can find Geocel 2300 caulk, it works great for this stuff and is paintable so you don't need to get hung up on color.http://logancustomcopper.com
http://grantlogan.net/
It's like the whole world's walking pretty and you can't find no room to move. - the Boss
I married my cousin in Arkansas - I married two more when I got to Utah. - the Gourds
You know, I was looking for Geocell yesterday at Menards. Couldn't find it, so I picked up the silicon instead. But I've used Geocell several times in the past for penetrations (like for cable or such) and it seems to hold up really well. I've never tried it with brick though. Don't even know what it is...just know the name. Didn't even know there was more than one kind. And never tried painting it.
Either way, it sounds like I'm taking the silicon stuff back.
jt8
"Being powerful is like being a lady. If you have to tell people you are, you aren't. -- Margaret Thatcher
John, Vulkem from Tremco is a bit grainy'r than Dymonic from Tremco. I use Vulkem when I am going to want to go concrete / sandstone to brick-gives more of a mortar look. The Dymonic would be a smoother finish. These are what I can get easily and always fresh in the tube. There's PL white if you can find it. A bit harder to get out of the tube I think. Might be shelf life. There there's Sherwin Wms. They usually have white and "aluminum" here. Really hard to get out of the tube. Might be a struggle.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Yeah, that stain looks like it's leaking all the way across the window sill.http://logancustomcopper.com
http://grantlogan.net/
It's like the whole world's walking pretty and you can't find no room to move. - the Boss
I married my cousin in Arkansas - I married two more when I got to Utah. - the Gourds