I am going to build a storage facility on my client’s property, next to his home.
There will be one bathroom, but no bedrooms or kitchen. I assume IRC therefore does not apply. I have only built owner-occupied homes in the past.
Can I/should I define a room as a bedroom, and does this pass muster to define the building as a guest house and then I can apply IRC? If not IRC, which code would apply???
If it means anything, this is no simple storage shed. It will be 6,500 square feet and be all conditioned space. From the outside, it will look like a house.
Thx for any advice.
Dan
Replies
6500 sq ft sounds like commercial use (unless you're building for junkhound or rez)
what's the inspector say?
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter WFR
"But when you're a kibbutzer and have no responsibility to decide the facts and apply the law, you can reach any conclusion you want because it doesn't matter." SHG
I am concerned about just talking directly to the code official because I may not like his answer. If he says commercial code, which I know nothing about, it will cost me time and $$$ to become knowledgeable. And then since he will know that it's really a high-end storage facility, I will not be able to try to redefine it as a guest house. Maybe I am too concerned about non-IRC codes. Is it hard or time-consuming to apply commercial code principles if one is onle (but very) familiar with IRC?
This facility is for a "collector." It will not house a commercial enterprise and will not be open to the public.
I think I would still talk with them, to find out what rules do apply.
system.... do you really think all the locals just fell off the turnip truck ????
man.. depending on juriscictions you could be running afoul of zoning, planning , septic, wetlands, and or coastal
building one thing and CALLING it another doesn't change it's legal definition... most code rule agencies have figured this out 20 years ago and closed all the loop holes
unless you like living on the edge , i suggest you find out just what is allowed and what isn't , and which permits you need and which you don't
which building code pertains is probably the least of your problemsMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,
Thx for your thoughts. Since I don't like "living on the edge" I just called the building code official. I was told (I'm paraphrasing here) that any ancillary structure on a building lot which already has an existing home, and is over a certain size (1,000 square feet) for said ancillary structure, must comply with IRC. So unless I misunderstood big time, looks like the storage facility will be inspected according to IRC just as a home would be.
Regards,
Dan
we used to have a building inspector who played games .... and encouraged game playing
but the one we have now has been on the job for about 15 years... he's certainly kept me out of more trouble than he's gotten me into..... he doesn't play games... just explains what can be done and what can't..
'course , he has to walk a fine line.. being helpful without giving the impression of playing favorites
but my take is he appreciates the builders who play it straight and that appreciation pays off in the long termMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
"building one thing and CALLING it another doesn't change it's legal definition"
Over the years we have been able to do this very thing... with the collaboration of the building inspector. It often required a series of phone calls from our local guy to the state office where some very knowledgeable official could find a way to classify a space that would allow the project to go forward. Two of these cases involved assembly spaces and renovations which were not the usual perview of the local BI.
the usual attempted dodge around here is adding rooms to houses on septic systemslibraries.... family rooms.... dens... whateverpretty soon.. homes built with two bedroom septic systems are resold as 5 bedroom homesThe RI DEM put a stop to that.. they now require submittal of RSSD showing existing floor plan and proposedanything that meets the DEM definition of a bedroom IS A BEDROOM they usually come back stamped ... redesign septic systemMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
When I got the "septic letter" (the sign off) they took into account the total square footage of the home with the addition, not just the number of bedrooms. (Lee County Fla)That did not include accessory buildings or garages.
in RI , it's strictly the number of bedrooms, which is why DEM defines what constitutes a bedroomif you are selling a three bedroom house, it has to have a three bedroom systemMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
here's the DEM reg....... they are discussing tweaking it .. but this is the one in effect...
(From DEM ISDS Regulations SD:1.00:)
"Bedroom: The term "bedroom" shall refer to any room in a
residential structure, which is greater than 100 sq. ft. in area,
which is susceptible to present or future use as a private
sleeping area and which has at least: (1) One window; and (2) One
interior method of entry and egress, excluding closets and
bathrooms, allowing the room to be closed off from the remainder
of the residence for privacy.
Note: In determining the number of bedrooms contained in any
residence, it shall be presumed that all residences contain a
living room, kitchen, bathroom, and at least one bedroom.
Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Just out of curiosity how do they define bathroom? Does it require a shower/tub or just a toilet and sink?
they don't care about bathrooms... septic sizing is based on bedrooms ( occupancy ) in RIMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Same here in NJ
Jeff
so many people here try to build out of code. everything should be built to code, no matter what it is. You are professional, at least that what they say at jlc.. Code is common sense
Thanks for posting.
There is a case here in Virginia that is still not completely final, involving a spec house built with an alternative (=$$$) septic system sized for three bedrooms. Building permit was also for three bedrooms. The house was sold as a five bedroom. The septic system failed shortly after the owners moved in. No really good solution for fixing the septic system.
Department of Occupational & Professional Regulation fined the builder ($10K, IIRC) and took away his license. Fined the realtor the same amount, but didn't take away the license. Civil suits by the buyer against the builder and realtor are still pending. The buyer is asking the court to force a the other parties to buy the house back.
wow... bet the lawyers love this one !
talk about failure to disclose
of course, in your case cited, the builder was also the owner and the seller
usually it's the homeowner trying to convince the builder to help hide the true nature of the project
Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 7/26/2008 12:02 pm ET by MikeSmith
Yeah, I hear about instances where the homeowner tries to enlist the builder in a misguided attempt to save money. And I have a lot of respect for the builders who do the right thing.
I'd rather hear the bad news BEFORE I built a 6500 sqft building. Just pick up a commercial code book.
Is this building for private use or will the public be wandering through? If its private I would think it would be residential anyway.
Are you going to have an overhead door?
If so, I would submit the plan as a residential garage. I would have to believe you would need C-x zoning to be able to call this a commercial building.
I bet zoning will be the hang up if they won't let you call it a garage or storage building. Usually they won't let you put two dwellings on a lot zoned for one (at least around here).
BTW I have seen a garage that was that big. The guy was a car collector and made a hurricane code building for his cars. He had a grease pit and a big shop in there too. It was still residential.
If general principles apply:
If the house is in a residential zone and this structure is permitted by ZONING ordinance in the residential zone then it is a residential use - ie an (albeit large) accessory building. Think about a farm - it could easily have a barn of 6,500 SF or more - still residential. You can have a party in the barn with hundreds of people - don't need exit signs or emergency lighting or anything else (might want to, but not required).
Put the same barn on a property owned by a corporation in a non-residential use area and you can't do that. It's commercial as defined by its use.
Jeff
I would call it an accessory building to an R-3 occupancy, but you can't know what it's occupancy type is until you know what is being stored within.
Where I live, if this were a private garage, for the parking of private vehicles, with no fueling or repair work was done, it would most likely be a Group U division 1 occupancy, with an allowable area of 3000 sq feet. Anything bigger would require area separation walls. Depending on it's location on the property and proximity to other structures, it might require some exterior wall and opening protection.
Any other use is limited to 1000 sq feet and has to be classed in the occupancy group that it most nearly resembles.
This is a very generalized description of how things are in California. In Pennslyvania, where SystemBuilder is from, things might be entirely different.
I haven't read everyone's replies but as a former building official, I would think your AHJ (authority having jurisdiction) is going to tell you what they want to see based on the intended usage with regards to EVERYTHING from fire rating to bathroom usage.
And if you lied and told them one thing and then did another, its going to bite you later on.
Just my two cents of course...
Mike
Hey system builder.
What town?
It should be considered an accessory building to a residential property so it would be covered under the IRC unless the property has a mixed use zoning under the municipal code for the town.
Is it truly a shed/barn or is it for commercial use?
If it is a a mixed use property and the client is going to use it for commercial use, the BI/BO will likely require you to use IBC (international building code) which is what covers us for commercial buildings under the UCC here in PA
That should give you the info you need. If not, bounce me back some more info. You are in my back yard so I should be able to lead you down the right road
Jeff in Chadds Ford (and Wayne, and Exton, and Wilmington, and West Goshen and Lower Prov etc, etc etc) Darn Commonwealth Laws!
Jeff,
As I think I said in one of the posts, the use is strictly for personal use. There is no commercial purpose, and the public is not going to see this building. The building code official told me that IRC would apply. It will be neither shed nor barn, but rather a private art museum and storage of same.
In the townships where you work, does it matter what the size of an auxillary building is? I have only built homes, never a commercial building or even a shed or barn. In PA, is it a local (township) zoning and code issue, or is this something statewide?
I will be speaking to the Zoning Officer on Monday.
Dan
Hey Dan: I did not read the later posts about use until I had already posted. Too late then.
Sorry bout that.
Re. the zoning, it is all driven down to the township level. ("Commonwealth Law")
Each township will have their own requirements for aux buildings in residential.
I would suggest you get into the townships website and see if you can download their zoning ordiinance and read what it has to say before you talk to the zoning guy.
My guess is that I would call it a conditioned barn/garage.
Whatever the client intends on displaying in there is their own business so long as it is not for the public.
If you say it is a studio or museum or use any different terminology, depending on the town, you could dig yourself a hole that only a zoning hearing can perhaps dig you out of.
What area are you in?
Closer you are to the cities, the more interesting it gets.
If client has a lot of acreage and you are within the building restriction lines, most of the time the biggest driver to how big you can build your barn would be impervious ground cover, similar to the new construction stuff.
Jeff,
As I think I said in one of the posts, the use is strictly for personal use. There is no commercial purpose, and the public is not going to see this building. The building code official told me that IRC would apply. It will be neither shed nor barn, but rather a private art museum and storage of same.
In the townships where you work, does it matter what the size of an auxillary building is? I have only built homes, never a commercial building or even a shed or barn. In PA, is it a local (township) zoning and code issue, or is this something statewide?
I will be speaking to the Zoning Officer on Monday.
Dan
Jeff,
Thx for the input. The locale is not in our area (SE PA) but rather upstate PA. Sparsely populated area, therefore township not very web savvy and nothing available on line unfortunately. Not even zoning maps. With 100 acres to play with, impervious is insignificant. I take your point about what to call it. Private museum seems too interesting and locals may want to ask a million questions. "Storage" , for whatever, is not misleading in my opinion and that's how I intend to characterize the use. Whether, or how often, the owner wants to look at what he is storing, is irrelevant.
Regards,
Dan
Dan:
Upstate eastern Pa, for the most part, is pretty lax as long as you give em a heads up.
As long as you have the acreage, it is an accessary building/barn and they are pretty easy for the most part.