Hello All,
On another list I am on one of the folks had this to say. He said that somehow the local Home Despot was getting all the higher quality framing lumber and the local independent lumber yards were getting lower quality stuff. Eventually they all went out of business because they could not compete with the big orange devil.
Could this be true? Who gets the better quality lumber? I would like to think that the local lumber yards that all the pros use have better stuff but is it true?
Now don’t ask me what makes for a better quality piece of lumber. When I am picking lumber I look for would that’s straight, knot free and free of checking-or as close as I can get.
Daniel Neuman
Oakland CA
Crazy Home Owner
Replies
Not around here.
Assuming you are speaking of framiong lumber -
There are some advantages to having it kept under cover in the building, that much is true.
I know of one loval yard here that shops pricve only and uses the brokers and mills that provide the very cheapest that can make grade.
I know another that owns their own mill and consistantly delivers the best lumber availabel.
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The Home Depot here in Calgary only stocks crappy finger jointed 2 x2' s . I usually go to Totem Lumber for better quality wood
The Home Depot here in Calgary only stocks crappy finger jointed 2 x2' s . I usually go to Totem Lumber for better quality wood
Wha? Your HD doesn't carry any framing lumber?? Really?
Daniel Neuman
Oakland CA
Crazy Home Owner
that guy must work in HD's PR dept.
"the best" lumber around here is to be found at the independent yards.
Costs a little more ... but using crooked lumber costs even more in the end ...
and standing there picking thru rack after rack costs time/money.
aside from running in for less than 10 sticks ... all HD and Lowes "top choice" stuff is good for is rocking horses ...
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Hi Jeff,
that guy must work in HD's PR dept.
"the best" lumber around here is to be found at the independent yards.
Costs a little more ... but using crooked lumber costs even more in the end ...
and standing there picking thru rack after rack costs time/money.
Yea you'd think that wouldn't you but he doesn't. How is it decided which yard gets which lumber? If its all on an independant basis with the lumberyard deciding what to buy from where then why would they nessacarily be better than home depot? I would hope that they would be but you never know I guess??
Daniel Neuman
Oakland CA
Crazy Home Owner
What a crock of crap.
The big boxes are mainly price driven, and buy the cheapest stuff they can get.
But -
You can buy from a good mill for years, and get bad loads of lumber from them.
And you can buy lumber from a bad mill for years and get good lumber from them at times.
.
I've heard the same story a million times - Lumberyard "A" stocks lousy lumber, but luberyard "B" stocks good stuff.
Then the next day someone else will tell me that lumberyard "B" stocks lousy lumber, but lumberyard "A" stocks good stuff.
So pardon my if I'm a bit cynical about the whole thing. But I'm tired of hearing BS like that. It's kind of a hot button thing for me.
What a crock of crap.
The big boxes are mainly price driven, and buy the cheapest stuff they can get.
But -
You can buy from a good mill for years, and get bad loads of lumber from them.
And you can buy lumber from a bad mill for years and get good lumber from them at times.
So are you saying that in general the independants will have better lumber or that they are all as likely to have crap? Since I don't buy giant amounts of lumber I can still pick thru and try to find good ones. I have been to one local place and you go inside and tell the guy at the desk what you want and they load it up for you but you don't get to pick the lumber. I have not been impressed with the quality of framing lumber from this place.
Daniel Neuman
Oakland CA
Crazy Home Owner
What I'm trying to say is that no one yard or company ALWAYS have good or bad lumber. But I do believe any place can get better or worse lumber than they typically get. There's no way a place can check every board in a semi load of lumber when it comes in. I think that in general the big boxes have worse lumber, as their buying is based almost completely on price. The people who buy the lumber aren't the ones who are out there meeting the customers on a daily basis.But smaller yards who deal with their customers face to face are going to tend to have better stuff. The guy who buys the lumber may be one of the guys who works the counter on a daily basis. So he's going to hear quality complaints on a first-hand basis.
Nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission. [Eleanor Roosevelt-]
I have spent too much time at Menards picking 2x4s
At Hoffrickters I could just load and go ,for the most part . I did find some bad stuff there . But I also found some good stuff at Menards.
They do buy from differant suppliers Not all local yards buy good lumber . Some do.
On the other hand the big boxes are a force to be reconed with , If they wanted they could demand good lumber and get it .
For framing material, I don't deal with the big boxes because they don't stock everything a builder needs - and what's worse, one orange box might have 105" studs this week where as the orange box across town never heard of them... I don't believe that the any of the local orange boxes sell Advantech floor sheathing. None of the big boxes around here stock 14' framing material or long 2x8s. Also, once I get the builder's volume discount at the yard, the prices come out about the same. Free delivery too. Big boxes cater to homeowners, lumber yards cater to pros. I'm speaking from a new construction point of view here. If I need to order a few houses of windows, I need knowledgeable sales people, and don't have time to wait in line behind a lady who wants a piece of plywood cut. As far as the quality - don't see much difference. If about 80% of the lumber is good, another 15% can be used for blocking, bracing, etc, and the rest can be send back - free pickup too!
Lumber is a commodity. The price changes every day if not several times a day. Most yards here have buyers who do nothing but watch the market and try to buy when the price is down. I pay 12% above the current inventory average of what ever they pay so there isn't a lot of wiggle room on the price of framing lumber and I'm at their mercy on quality. My supplier does listen to complaints about quality and buys accordingly but you get bad stuff from all of them at times. At times we have to spend huge amounts of time culling and at other times we only throw out about 10% of a hack of studs.
The way I see it: When they can buy OSB or plywood from Weyerhauser for $.15 per sheet cheaper than LP this week, we'll be using Weyerhauser next week. Same for studs, SYP, etc. I've seen a tractor trailer unload 1/2 a load of studs at store A then 2 hrs later see the same truck unloading the balance at store B, and remembered hearing someone say: "don't buy you studs at store A cause they're crooked and store B has straight ones. Bottom line is that store B is getting theirs from the same place as store A. Store B has to do the same things as store A to be able to compete on the open market. Larger areas may not see the swings as often as they buy in larger lots.
Shipping has a lot to do with it also: i.e. Can I get a truck of this from there to here? Or do I need to order it from another place because I can get it quicker. The exception here is SLOWES and probably HD. Lowes has a contract with mill A to supply them with thousands of studs with their little "top choice" stickers on them for a set price for a set amount of time. That's called buying power. I saw OSB at SLOWES for $15.89 per sheet when I was buying it at my supplier for just shy of $22 per sheet. There's something to be said for loyalty, and service, but that almost, almost broke the rubber band. SLOWES and HD can't service a contractors with lumber here. Most of their contractor business is the Contractor A needs a case of Silicone and Contractor B needs 3 sheets of sheetrock, type of business.
This is the way I see it and it is certainly more complicated than this, but it's the general idea.
k
Edited 6/15/2005 9:04 pm ET by kcoyner
Maybe in NoCal but here in SoCal I go to Ganahls family owned since 1890's and its a little bit pricer but the quality exceeds that of the Home D&(&do
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I work for an independent yard, and have a broker that does our buying. we have been at this long enough to know which mills have a track record of quality. That said there is always a few boards out of every lift that arent worth a damn except for building boats. Home dissapointment and blowes on the other hand have buyers at the corporate office that are just administrative people most have probably never seen a stud and wouldn't know the difference anyways.
I would pay a buck more per stud if they were all premium, I know it would save money in the long run. Think of the time sorting at the yard, on the job, replacing the tossed ones. As they say, Times Money!
RU
I used to work for a 150+ store building supply chain and was told by the buyer that per government (?) regs a bundle of lumber with a particular grade could contain 10% of the next lower grade. So if the yard man didn't cull the lower grade which kept rising to the top as people picked through the pile the whole pile would look kind of bad.
That may be the case but when I buy a hack of 2x10s, #2 SYP ( 80 pcs.) for headers, ceiling joists or rafters, about 10% of them will have a #1 grade stamp on them. When I used to use 2x10s for floor joists, I would buy #1s. I don't recall seeing any #2 stamps. The reason for this is that #1 will pass code where #2 won't but it doesn't work the other way around. I will say that I would be amazed at times how some 2x10s made the #1 grade. So maybe the case could be made that many times #2s get stamped with the #1 grade as you say.
>> So if the yard man didn't cull the lower grade which kept rising to the top as people picked through the pile the whole pile would look kind of bad.
I cull my own lumber at the yard or at my sight. I never cull by grade either. #1 grade joists aren't always useable. There were as many culls from those #1 2x10s I used to use as there are from the #2s I use today.
k
You need to look at the grade marking on each piece of lumber and understand what that means. The higher the grade, the straighter, less knots, no wane, less checks, etc. Of course, the better the grade the more it costs. You get what you pay for, no free lunch.
butch
I get totally acceptable stuff from Lowes here in KY.
BUT..I hate pushing a cart around..and I don't need to have them chage me for a small delivery if I choose to have it sent out.
My local place, will send out 2 2x4 16's if that is what I need NOW..and it is free delivery. If one of them is questionable, they send 3. The last order I called in...was a mixed bag of stuff..some PT, some SPF, A door, some felt, some nails. It was here when they said ( same day) and if I ordered 8 2x10 PT @12'..and 8 2x6 SPF @ 8'...I got 9 or even 10. That was service. The only thing they messed up was sending a roll of tyvek tape in lieu of vycor...a simple mistake.
It would have taken me hours to get the same stuff..wheeling a buggy around lowes, and unloading my truck so I could drive there and load it, then unload it at home.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Insert your favorite George Harrison song HERE.
Fun issue to comment on because everybody has their issue and everybody has their pet peeves..
I don't use any middle men, I buy direct from small to medium sized saw mills.. Around here I get hardwood, like white oak for example cheaper at a sawmill than I can buy pine (or "western white wood") from Home depot..
For example I buy oak 2x4 8 feet long for $2.13 now I don't use oak 2x4's for anything I just gave you the prices so you can do a little comparison shopping..
If I want I can stand at the end of the sawmill and hand sort or just take as they come off the line (that's called mill run and the best way to get the really interesting wood like burls and flame hearts etc..)
Ash oak basswood poplar, heck most woods are about the same price, only hard maple, black walnut and cherry really seems to command a premium.
To give you an idea of the potential price savings, The wood to build a double timberframe (timbers inside and out every 4 feet, black walnut on the outside and white oak on the inside) with all of the trim wood and hardwood flooring material for a 6000+ sq.ft. house. cost me under $25,000.00 that's black walnut, cherry, hard maple, and some really exotic woods like burls and fiddleback...
lumberyards Ha!
Around here I have found the standard grade framing lumber at HD to be of absolutely no use. The higher grade stuff is a little better. I might pick 1 good board out of 3. This is for 2x4s. Results are slightly better for wider boards. Their pressure treated stuff is a complete joke. Maybe 1 in 10 for a straight 4x4, for example.
Lowes is somewhat better for lumber quality, but I still would not want a load of it delivered. I would have to pick my own pieces.
There are 2 smaller suppliers geared towards contractors where nearly every board is perfect for only slightly more money. Of course their hours suck, and it is too much trouble to go to them for just a few pieces. For larger loads delivered this is the way to go.
Daniel
The "big orange devil," does purchase a, "Premium," lumber as to a 1&2 like must real lumber yards. Although you will find that a good local lumber yard will take much better care of their product, because there is a pretty good chance the guy that works in that yard cares how it looks.
Professionals buy at local lumber yards for the service and quality of product. I am sure that if any local yard could afford a multi million dollar ad campaign promoting a grade of lumber that they more or less invented, they would. But, that local guy is too busy standing at the counter answering your DIY questions, and providing you with the service you deserve. He can't get out and raise that kind of money, but he is probably more than happy to exchange a couple of 2x4's if you are not happy with them.
Do I get the feeling that HD lumber is garbage? Yea it is, but if you want to take the time, you can high grade it all you want.
Only if nothing else is available.
Hey Everybody,
I want to make clear that I have no problem passing up the local Home Despot to go to a real lumber yard and pay a bit extra for the wood. I just want to make sure that the wood really is better. Some of you seem to be saying that the grade stamping at the big boxes is made up? Which 'real' grade stamp should I be looking for? keeping in mind that I do not mind paying more for wood that is actually higher in quality.
I wish the lumber yards around here had such nice delivery policies. They will deliver for free if the order is above a certain amount-but the ones I have dealt with won't run a couple of 2by4's out to you.
As a HO remodeling my own Victorian house I do not usually need to make giant purchases of lumber (well besides when we built the deck) so I don't mind going on down to the real lumber yards and picking thru the bins for the good stuff.Daniel Neuman
Oakland CA
Crazy Home Owner
Madscientist,
Grade stamps are just that, somebody looked at the board and graded them at a certain rate.. few outside the industry can understand what they mean. In addition the grade stamp is approximate. The average grader has a few seconds at most to determine the quailty of the board before him and mark it accordingly.. mistakes happen..
10% is tolerance and more or less depends on a lot of factors..
If you want a real arguement ask someone here what a piece of 2b western white wood should be and how it's graded differantly from Doug Fir.
Then there is old growth verses new growth or north side versis south side and finally there are so many regional differances that it will drive you nuts trying to figure it all out..
One of the great Myths is that such and such a lumberyard has better wood..
Well when they are all tightly strapped together they all look great but put a bunker of lumber in a store and the average amature can't avoid picking them up sighting down one and rejecting it for one reason or another.. eventually all those rejects tossed aside begin to add up and a pro who's in a hurry comes along and looks at the mess and decides they are all junk..
What he doesn't know is that the supplier of the same junk wood also delivers to the smaller yards as well.. The reason the lumberyards seem like they have better wood is that the guys who fill the orders don't sort, they just pull the number required and leave the pile nice and straight..
One final point is the wood itself.. See the grade stamp? it will tell you if it's kiln dryed or dry's in shipping.. What a crock!
KD 19 or SD 19 are common. what that means is that wood is supposed to have 19% moisture as it comes from the Kiln or 19% moisture when it arrives at the location where it's used..
Since normal wood is between 20 and 25% moisture in the summer /fall/ winter (higher in the spring) often the only time a board goes thru the kiln is on the rail car as it's pulled out of the yard.(but they get to stamp KD19) SD 19 means that they saw the wood and it dries to 19% moisture in transit.. Hmmm. dries to 19% in shipping? The tolerance is again 10% thus 20% even 21 or 22 percent seems to get by. The heat from sawing will dry the wood out a few points and having the wood apart however briefly dries it another point or two..
Now what does all thatmean to you with your old Victorian?
Simple, the wood in your house is currantly around 6 or 7 percent moisture (depending on where you live) Thus when your new wood dries out to the level of your old wood it's gonna shrink a bit.. How much? well length wise not a lot but it sure will as far as thickness or width goes.. In addition the wood you buy today is not the wood that your old house was made from..
Today's wood is nominal thickness (another words a 2x4 isn't 2 inches by four inches. it's 1 1/2 x3 1/2
Shocking huh?
well there's lots more if you want to know about wood..
I don't know how they go about buying the stuff ...
but the lumber yard I deal with always has good lumber. It's not hit or miss ... it's always good.
There are times when a bunk will have more crap in it ... but they also have yard guys that know when to toss in a few(or more) "free" sticks to make up for the crap.
and if you call for a small load ... they cull it as they load the truck ... so all the useful lumber U can ask for.
As far as telling "who" ... don't know?
That's why I stick with them.
even small loads make sense to me as far as delivery goes when I consider the $40 or $50 delivery charge vs my time spent running around.
I still make the dreaded trips to HD and Lowes for smaller/last minute loads ...
But even then ... every now and then ... if I call midday ... for 1 2x4 ....
my counter guy understands .... and if there's a truck heading anywhere near my site ... they make a courtesy side trip. I don't make it a habit.
Maybe because I don't abuse the priviledge ... or maybe it's the panic in my voice!
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
If you're in the Oakland area, I would spin up to Berkeley on a Saturday and go to Ashby Lumber. If they're too far they may be able to recommend someone closer to you. I did some work in Emeryville on my brother's house when I was out there. The Depot is OK if you like McDonald's but independent yards like Ashby seem to consistently beat them in terms of quality.Good luck.
Dave
To give a little back ground - I have just completed framing and closing in my house and am now doing the interior finish. I quickly found that HD provided the best lumber and prices by far. Their prices were at least 25% less on the bottom line and the lumber was of the same quality or better than any of the local yards. For rafters, 24 and 26' 2x12s were no problem and were exceptionally straight for instance.
How do I get the quality and price. Simple - I use the 10% certificates available and gift cards purchased through reputable spots like pawn shops. Say on a $6000 lumber order, I have 3 10% off certificates for $5400 cost and then cards that cost me $4650. The same lumber at contractor's prices in two local yards would be about $6500. In my mind, I can do a lot with the savings. Oh I forgot - to deliver HD costs $50 so my total savings is $1800.
How do I get high quality lumber. I found a "knowledgeable and friendly individual" at the pro desk. As part of my dealing with them for my lumber, it was agreed that if I received any lumber that I was not satisfied with, I could return it. So you say - what's new about that - well when HD would have to send their truck to pick up the reject lumber, they are very careful to deliver good stuff. I will say that there has been less than $100 worth of lumber that was not satisfactory- split board, warped etc. When I called to have them pick it up, they always said use it as you can - come down to the store and we will give you credit.
Just my 2cents
"When I called to have them pick it up, they always said use it as you can - come down to the store and we will give you credit.'
Oh yeah ... that happens ... ALL the time .....???
free lumber ... they always do that. Nation wide policy, I think. They're non-profit now
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa