Hi Y’all,
I went looking for a new framing square and found a nice, dark-anodized aluminum one with hi-visibility markings.
Only thing was, it wasn’t square, and neither were the other ones on the rack.
There were some steel ones that were square, but without the easy-reading of the aluminum.
Does anybody know of a good square that, unless abused, will stay reasonably square, and is easy to read? Aluminum would be nice too, but not absolutely necessary.
I do know how to ‘ping’ a square back straight, but think it reasonable to want to buy one that is square to start with.
Thanks and good health, Weogo Reed
Replies
Can you explain to me how to "ping" a square back into square? Never heard of that before.
Lay the corner on an anvil
To close it up a little, ping it with a hammer on the outside corner
to open it up a little, ping it with a hammer on the inside cornerKevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
Can do the same trick on a concrete floor using a nailset.
Hmm...
I have a concrete floor that is out of square, I'll give it a try. :)
Well..........................
You have to hit the nailset with a jackhammer to correct your concrete floor.
Best I ever had (square-wise) was a Malco...great sq. with ALL the tables..that no one uses. Spray it with yer favorite day-glo paint let it dry then lightly sand away the paint till just the etchings or stampings are painted. The 100th scale doesnt like it too much tho. My buddy thought it was a nail file..
never heard of a square not being square, sitting on a rack in the store. Im sure it has happened but all of the non steel ones? Youre not confusing squares with p traps are you?
square not being square
Except for a few Starrets, nothing is 'really' square on the shelf. Everything needs to be pinged or filed, esp. framing squares, so might as well buy the cheapest* framing square there is and fix it.
* there be some good quality (other than not square) tempered Al squares out there that are not cheap even though they are not square.
While on the ping subject, one of the hardest to master "pingings" is straightening of saw blades (any type) - you ping'em on the concave side, somewhat counter-intuitive.
ok.....Im sure if you measure the squareness of most squares with some type of NASA laser they woudnt be absolutely sqaure.....but they are square enough for any of us to use in our everyday work.
so...what's the easiest way to tell if a square is square?
hold it to another of different brand
so how do you know which brand is out/ Does it work with four foot levels too?
The best employee you can have but you wouldn't want him as a neighbor " He the shifty type"
BB -
Since you opened the Pandora's box with respect to levels, I'll vent my frustration on them as well.
I spent a good half hour going through practically every 4' mason's level at one of the better mason's supply houses picking out my third 4' level. Did end-for-end checks on every bubble. Found one that was as close as my eye could detect to being accurate for both plumb and level on all but one bubble.
I've treated that level with kid gloves. All the previous ones, too for that matter. Recently I've noticed with this last one, one of the level bubbles is out at least 1/16" in four feet. No idea how it got out of whack but it sure bugs me.
I finally got a lenght of hose, a platic jug and some clear plastic tubing and made a water level. Works around corners, too! (grin) At least I have three reasonably good 44' straight edges.
...........
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
Get a stabila level. Made to take a beating and very accurate. Even make one specificly for masons with pads on top so you can tap on it when you are adjusting your work(never used it though).
"hold it to another of different brand"
But if all squares aren't truly square...?
Since "ping" was referred to in this thread already, we'll use that term rather than 'Peen'.
classic method is a staight edge laying on a sheet of steel or aluminum covered with prussian blue (straight edge calibrated by eyeball calibration - do some web research and see how accurate the eye can be for straight!)
Scribe a very fine line with an exacto knife or old silver pen or some such with the leg to the left, flip, scribe second line with leg to the right. You will see either an open angle or crossing lines, very rare is the framing square off the rack that will have both lines lie on top of each other. A really good eye (not mine, but a deceased uncle had one such) could see the separation and do a 3 ping triangle with a 24 oz ball peen on the anvil and have it come out dead on.
Oh yeah, we are assuming the legs of the framing square are straight - NOT! a prerequisite for squaring is to straighten the legs with preliminary peening (oops, pinging). Not even to mention the miniburrs on the edges that are another topic also.
Per handle, may buy junk, but after a few hundred dollars worth of manhours, it is worth about $20 MORE <G>
lay it down and put one edge on a straight edge of ply, draw a line,
flip it over and see if it matches the line you just made, if it doesn't your square ain't square.
Ah! That makes sense.
A quick check that you can do at a store is to get 3 of them. Any brands and any combination.
If A & B match, then B & C matches, and then A & C matches then all of them are square.
I don't think that's going to work unless all of them happen to be square which according to the first poster it's not going to happen. Then what if they are all out of square by the same amount?
Tom
I am talking about putting them face to face (so that the two are an inverted T).
Say A is 89 degress so that B would have to 91 to match up with it.
Then match up B to C and C would have to be 89 to match B.
Then A (89) and C (89) would have a 2 degree gap.
Find a straight edge (usually the bottom of a steel rack); take out your .5mm mechanical pencil; do the flip test right there on the floor and look for run-in/run-out.
Fast way to tune a square is with an edge sander. We've used a marble threshold and 3 sheets of PSA sand-paper when nothing else was available.
The only squares that are more or less guaranteed to be close are pro-quality "engineer's squares"..
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
...or all 3 are equally out of whack.
Pete
C'mon people...
It takes about 10 seconds to flip a square to check for square. It takes about a minute to peen it if it's off.
It doesn't take very long to check a level for level. Depending on what you have, you may or may not be able to adjust it to spot-on.
If the plate on your circ saw was cutting at 88 degrees instead of 90, wouldn't you take a minute to set it right?
This ain't rocket science...this is about as back to the basics as you can get.
That said, I do like the idea that someone offered of spray painting the square then sanding it to leave the paint in the grooves. I may have to try that.
there's a story (which or may not have actually happened for all I know) told in the engineering and machining trades about the proud Swiss(?) machinists union that sent their German(?) counterparts a super tiny screw and nut as a demonstration of their mechanical prowess. the Germans sent it back with a hole drilled and tapped through and a screw threaded into it.
m
after all the nano technology stuff nuthin would suprise me anymore..btw you are in WNC right? The guy with the wire (now deceased ) was in Franklin. I lived there for 9 years....how it all happened to come up was on a real cold nite..his motor home next to his house lost all water..I saw`a garden hose feeding it..solid as a rock. I said here's yer problem Ted, It dont take a rocket scientist to know it would freeze...That's when he said dryly..."I am a rocket scientist". And for the next 4 hrs. he proved it over and over and over...miss the ol coot.
i'm in mills river- a few miles sw of the asheville airport. i knew some guys in the astrophysics lab at CU- Boulder that built some amazing stuff. my favorite was the gravimeter (device to measure gravity for you business majors) that was so sensitive it could sense the difference in the force of gravity between a base reading on a floor and then putting a piece of plywood under it.
m
I think I need one of those..don't know what for but by God if I had one...I'd figure out what to do with it...Another NASA story...when I was building Guitars up in Pa., we hired a guy that was a Machinist...He said " I worked for NASA we work to a .005 of an inch tolerance " I said "well, we're luthiers...we get it right on"....pull a .009 guitar sting to pitch, it IS a straight line.
Nice area Mills River...more populated than where I was..winter work slowed way down...and forget having helpers during deer season, or bear, or trout, or tourist.
Our bumperstickers "If it is TOURIST SEASON, how come we can't shoot 'em?"
> we work to a .005 of an inch tolerance
By machine shop standards, that's loose and sloppy. Average work is .002", high precision work is done in tenths of a thousandth.
-- J.S.
In the original version of the story, the machnist probably said .0005 and somewhere along the line somebody copying it looked at it and said, "That can't be right," and dropped a zero.
Thats me..new brain, tryin to break it in..<g>
I was told that story in hogh school only it was the British and the Prussians, and involved Queen Victoria's Diamond jubillee and needles. The story was that the Brits were boasting about their machining skills and sent the Prussians some fine needles. The Prussians sent back the needles only with them cut in half, and hollowed out with finer needles inserted inside.
Who knows if it is true!
An ex-boat builder treading water!
Hate to bug ya'll about this, I know the question has been asked before. I want to know how I can true up my square. I'm a very visual person, however, so it would be fantastic if I could have pictures to go along with the explanation. Thanks all.
>>That said, I do like the idea that someone offered of spray painting the square then sanding it to leave the paint in the grooves. I may have to try that.
Why make things so complicated, just rub the paint into the grooves. I did that to my rulers when I was in primary school.
Heck, most of us just use a felt-tip pen to blacken-in the markings.
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
felt-tip pen? I was talking about time before ball-point pens, I thought felt-tip came after ball-point, not?
In practical terms, the felt-tip pen and the ball-point are tied:
ball-point invented in the 1880's, usable in the 1930's, mass-production start in the late 1940's, widely available in the 50's
Felt-tip invented "?", widely available in the 1940's as an artist's tool or box-marker.
Both predate my need to touch-up a steel framing square..
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
>>While on the ping subject, one of the hardest to master "pingings" is straightening of saw blades (any type) - you ping'em on the concave side, somewhat counter-intuitive.
Because you're expanding/stretching the metal on the pinged side.
Measure the triangles on the square for example, hook your tape on the 3" mark and then measure diagonal to the 4" mark and it should read exactly 5" or do it with the 6" mark and measure diagonal to the 8" mark and it should measure exactly 10" or measure from the 9" mark to the 12" mark and it should measure exactly 15".
Look on the framing square where it says "COMMON RAFTER LENGTH PER FOOT RUN", look to the right of that that and you will see numbers, sum in decimals and there all under every inch up to 18".
What those numbers mean is for example under the 5" mark you will see 13. The 5" mark represents for cutting rafters that for every 12" of run the rise is 5" and the rafter length would be 13" so if you drew a Triangle with 12" on the bottom and came up 5" on the side the diagonal would be 13".
So if you take your tape hold it on the 12" mark on the bottom left side of the square and measure over to every inch all the way up the right side of the square the measurement should measure what every one of those numbers say underneath the inch marks in that "COMMON RAFTER LENGTH PER FOOT" column.
Joe Carola
I like the FATBOY, I'm not sure who makes it but is about an 1/8" thick, feels good in your hand. When you see one you'll know.
I agree with the fatboy. 'straigtened' the edge once by passing it over a jointer. set it to remove abought a 1/64"(digital readout) Worked slick, got rid of burs and clear coating goop. And yes the blades were fine.
I understand your concern, but we're not building furnature here are we???
My life is my practice!
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
I understand your concern, but we're not building furnature here are we???
Andy, Is that a real question or a facetious one?
I'm not building furniture but I fairly routinely need to cut a square cut on a granite countertop where it butts up to a stove. None of my aluminum squares will stay square long enough for me to trust them. 1/16 over 24" where it butts up to a stove will jump out at you even if you have bad eyes.
If anyone has recommendations like the Fatbob (or whatever the extra thick square is) I plan on checking it out.
This is a good thread, keep the ideas coming.
Karl
Well, just a second, Andy.
No, it's true I am not building furniture with a framing square, but when I'm building stairs, I use a 1903 Nicholson which I determined is ABSOLUTELY square - and I keep it in a box to make sure it stays that way. (got it from my neighbour who's daddy bought it before he was born)
I hate setting up templates for gang cutting with one degree of error.
Same with my new level. I took my Stabila 72" with me to get my 24" job. I went through EVERY level in the rack, from Fat Max up. One, in the whole store, matched the accuracy of the Stabia on both horizontal and vertical. The store, BTW, was the Vancouver store of Home Depot. The good part is, I paid half of what my favorite lumber yard would charge me for a 2' Stabila. The bad part is, that a non-aware buyer will think his Stanley is level (or square) BECAUSE it's a name brand.Quality repairs for your home.
Aaron the HandymanVancouver, Canada
thats why I mentioned furnature..just to get the point accross as to where carps do need perfection such as countertops and stairs.
Thats "almost" furnature now isnt it?My life is my practice!
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
You get "Square" squares the same place you get accurate tapes, levels that are dead on and Boards that are straight.
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Get some for that special project Today!!
There is a 90 day lead time on these for the special milling, but you will be spending all that time fussing with your imperfect tools, so it will all work out.Mr T
Do not try this at home!
I am an Experienced Professional!
I had a customer who actually was employed at NASA..they had to job out a thinggy they were noodlin on...what they wanted was a drill bit type thing to make a hole for a Real small wire (like less than a human hair)..they sent said wire to the "job shop" secret kinda place somewhere..and the wire got sent back with a HOLE drilled through IT...like a pipe...job shop said is that small enough?...I saw magnified photos and a hunk of the wire, How day do dat?
Check out estate sales in your area. i find some really great squares in some of these sales. Thick steel framing squares with really interesting tables etched into the tongue and body. They take a little work to get square and a lot of cleaning (rust and corrosion) but you end up with a great tool for usually $1.00.
You might just as well get in the habit of checking your framing square occasionally, they get banged and pinched, and distorted pretty regularly. Just like the table on your Skilsaw (don't forget to check the oil in that, while you're at it.
Recalibrating a level with a bad bubble is easy too, but it takes a little time - place the level against a flat surface, take the beater chisel out of your nail bags. Carefully place the cutting edge of the chisel/screw driver/prybar against the surface of the offending bubble (you have long since removed the glass lens that "protects" the pair of bubbles because you can't see through it). Now carefully take your hammer out of its loop, strike the rounded end of your chisel/screw driver/prybay smartly and bust that bubble out of your level.
When you get down to one good bubble for plumb, and one for level, it's time to buy a new level.
And seriously, "framing squares" are for framing. We got half the people on this forum saying they don't use squares to mark framing lumber anyway...hell, we even have people saying they just eyeball plumb cuts on rafters and they're considered "framing pros". If you get it close, and check it about once a month, peening it as needed, it will last your career and the career of the young buck you hand it down to because your own kids are way too smart to go into this profession.
If you are looking for a durability, Lee Valley sells a stainless steel framing square. Couldn't tell you how "square" it is, though. I guess I'd just pick one you like, with the tables you want, and make it square. Starrett also makes framing squares, but I haven't seen them in stores much.
The two I've got both came from estate sales.
-Kit
ROAR!Any jackass can kick down a barn, but it takes a carpenter to build one.
Hi Y'all,
Thanks all for the comments and suggestions.
Junkhead, yep, it is peening, not pinging! Hopefully I haven’t introduced into some poor soul’s head yet another variation of an already somewhat obscure word!
Thanks Kit for the Lee Valley tip. It is the only square I have run across that gives numbers for accuracy. Here it is:
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.asp?SID=&ccurrency=2&page=32587&category=1%2C42936%2C42944
Good health, Weogo
http://www.leevalley.com
has a great stainless steel square, mine was perfectly square and straight, not cheap though
caulking is not a piece of trim
Hi Steve,
Yep, somebody already pointed that one out, and it looks like the one to get.
Is it pretty easy to read? Do the markings look durable?
Thanks and good health, Weogo Reed
Yes, and their little book is a worthwhile collector's item too (about $5.00).
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
its a great square, easy to read, plenty sturdy and has a guarenteed accuracy
im not a framer so the tables are of no use, but i use it for machine set up, layout lines etc etccaulking is not a piece of trim
Now this is a great topic...
BTW I am a funiture maker... along with being a regular buyer of very rundown houses.
I can't stand those out of square "squares" they sell any place these days. The best square I have is square down to a 1000th of an inch at 3' out from the center.
of course I had to make it myself 1/2" thick and 3' on both legs.Christmas is coming..... should I buy the wife that new tablesaw ....hmmmm
Recently went shopping for a level 'upgrade'. I had like 4 of them that disagreed with each other.
I was amazed by how many on the shelf were off the mark.
Storing the new one in a 'custom' 3-inch PVC pipe case with foam padding.
Might help. We'll see...
I have the Lee Valley square and it is was dead on when I bought it ( I think it needs a tune up as we speak ) and yes I have used it to build furniture.
I also have a Starrett 32" level CW laser that has calibratable sp vials & laser.
Point being tools that you can calibrate are the way to go.On a hill by the harbour