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Discussion Forum

Who should pay?

| Posted in General Discussion on June 13, 2000 07:30am

*
I am a new contractor (18 months self
employed) and have run into a problem. I
took a job laying an interior stone
floor, 2000 sq ft. The design was from a
very respected cabinetry
builder/designer. He also selected the
stone, and a sealer. I had never before
done an instalation of this nature, and
the owner has been very flexible and
understanding concerning the price. The
job looked great, I made some money,
everyone was happy.

Three weeks after the sealer was cured,
it began to “dryout”. In a period of
about two weeks, 60% of the floor looks
like it was never sealed. I had spent
roughly two weeks on my knees sealing
that S.O.B. The sealer is very tricky,
requiring two or three wipe downs to
avoid milking. Anyway the manufacturer
is very helpfull, and is willing to
refund the amount of the sealer used,
send additional sealer at no cost, or
send another sealer at no cost. BUT,
they will not compensate me for my
labor. If I end up using less sealer
than at first, to redo the floor ( it
would be the fourth coat) they are
willing to reemburse me the difference
between the original amount, minus the
new amount used. is that clear? But
suppose I use as much sealer as before?
Who pays for my labor on a callback that
was not my fault?

Scott Davis

P.S. The Manufacturer, upon describing
the project and how I applied their
product, agrees that the fault lies

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Replies

  1. Mike_Smith | Feb 05, 2000 09:42pm | #1

    *
    .........Scott...what did your "spec" say in your sub-contract? 3 coats sealer.......4 coats sealer....didn't say ?.....assume this to be change order..you applied the finish , it was accepted, now for "appearance" someone wants another coat...oblige them...write up a Change Order, including your labor and material, overhead and profit, and a nuisance factor (you can't be on the other job you are supposed to be on) submit the CO to the person who pays you, hired you.....receive payment before you start.. and then cheerfully go do it....

    b all part of the service , mamm

    1. Dan_Dear | Feb 06, 2000 01:28am | #2

      *I agree with Mike. A smile on your face at all times. Worse comes to worse, it the lost labor monies, and then too, with a smile. Your rep and future referrrals is wrth much more. It will also serve to this client and their friend your ability and desire to accomodate them whenever possible.Now increase your overhead by 1% to cover guarantee work. Each week write out a check of the monies put into your check book for the week, regardless it that money is deposits, payouts or final payments and set up a separate reserve account as a savings account for those checks. A couple of hours here and there will not hurt you, but should a serious problem occur, that reserve will cover your paycheck that week.Remember, everything we buy, TV, truck, refrigerator, are all guaranteed, and guess who pays for it - we do. It's built into the price. You do the same.While you're at it, also add and other 1% as a separate reserve for bad debt. For obvious reasons.

      1. Mad_Dog | Feb 06, 2000 03:08am | #3

        *Well, at least you're getting some help from the manufacturer. I'd proceed as Mike and Sonny suggest, and if your client won't kick in some labor money, you may have to suck this one up and chalk it up to the experience learned in a new facet of your capabilities, but there should also be some accountability on the part of the guy who designed this. Worth a try.MD

        1. Rich_ | Feb 06, 2000 11:14am | #4

          *I think I have been very careful about reading your post. I'm more concerned with issues not addressed in your post or those of the respondents. I'm going to take a different tack then Mike or Sonny. You say you are a new contractor and have never before done this type of installation. You also say the designer selected the type of sealer as well as the finish material. Later, you say the sealer mfg. has been very helpful.Some questions: what propelled you to take on the job of sealing? Was it part of your work contract, a change order, or a nice thing to do? How familiar were you with that specific sealer, when used with that specific stone? Why has the sealer mfg. stepped in?In the state of CA, once a workman actually begins something, he is liable for his work to a large extent. If he "buried" someone else's defect or he didn't have full knowledge of what he was doing, no matter, he is liable.Hence my question about your knowledge of the sealer. Also, it is not unreasonable to question the designer's knowledge of the sealer/stone combo. Maybe he didn't know enough and you merely went along with it. Purely speculative, but these are questions I'd want answers to if it were my money. The reason I dwell on this issue is because I have seen multiple botched sealing jobs. I think the consensus is "anyone can do it, just wipe on, wipe off". I think the mfg. stepped in as a pre-emptive strike to show good faith. ie, they are concerned and not waiting for finding fault. They have a reputattion to protect. Then again, during winter things freeze, such as sealers, which is a big no no. Perhaps, the mfg. knows there has been a rash of this happening.I read from your post that you would like to correct the defect, establish liability for labor payment, and come out smelling like a rose. You'd also like to know if further effort on your part is going to accomplish these goals. At this point you don't know. I suspect, what you do know is that if you allow this to drag out over time you will have some mightyly pissed customers. It is imperative you keep open and timely communication with the owners.I realize this is more problematic than Mike's neat response, yet I see a bunch of unanswered questions. No one's gonna' just fork over the cost of another seal coat on 2000 feet of stone, especially when they don't know what the results will be. Let us know how this progresses.

          1. Ryan_C | Feb 06, 2000 06:36pm | #5

            *Scott:I'm not sure what the relationship was between you, the owners, and the designer. If the product was bad, it's the manufacturer's fault. If the choice of product was bad, it's the designer's fault. If the application was bad, it's your fault. I guess this is obvious.If the home owners hired the designer and told you what and how to install the sealer, and you did it right, you are right to politely and with a big smile expect to be paid for your time. If the home owner wants to go after the designer, that's not your business.If the home owner hired you and you were the contact with the designer (meaning the home owner never hired the designer), then the problem is yours. If you were hired to provide a good finished product and you found a bad designer or a bad manufacturer, you can try to go after them but don't make the home owner get involved.I've returned epoxy that didn't work as I was told it would after I opened teh package and used some. I recently returned an oil pan gasket that I had completly ruined because it didn't fit my truck like the parts guy told me it would. I was told that They couldn't take it back because it was no good to sell now. I told them that the problem wasn't mine because I bought exactly what they told me I needed and it didn't perform as promised. If they had bad info from the manufacturer, they could feel free to go after them but that's not my problem. The point is, I hired them to provide something and no matter why it didn't work out, I still expected it to be delivered.If you were supposed to provide a finished project for a fixed price, you need to do that no matter how much time it takes and how much money it costs. Sorry. I've been there and I hate it too.

          2. chuck_a_crawford | Feb 07, 2000 05:46am | #6

            *Well said Ryan.

          3. Scott_Davis | Feb 08, 2000 08:22am | #7

            *Thanks alot for your input guys. Rich, your questions are good. You read into the situation pretty good. More background: The homeowner hires the designer to do doors for him, and help him with aspects of design. The designer knows my work, and believes that this project lies within my abilities. He suggests the stone floor and refers the homeowner to me. Upon seeing the job, I tell the homeowner, this is a new application of my skills, but I can do it. I tell him that I do not know how I should bid the job. He allows me time into the project to tell him the final cost. The designer has overseen similer applications and gives me a ballpark figure for the bid. I bid lower than his suggestion (fear of speaking five digit price tags), but upon seeing that the sealing process is much more time coonsuming than anticipated, the homeowner allows me to raise the bid (approx 8%). The designer has seen the sealer used, and loves it, recommends it, swears by it. At the time the installation is complete and (so we thought) fully cured we are one big happy family, me with sore knees, but satisfied.I have since resealed a couple of spots in the worst areas and am observing what happens. It's been about three weeks since then, about how long it took to fail the first time, and it seems to be holding up. It has been speculated that the porosity of the stone coupled with the radiant slab, have led to more latent absorbtion. The manufacturer has also suggested this. Communication on the problem (homeowner is out of state) is regular and complete.The homeowner has implied that he would be open to paying my hours resealing the floor. He knew that my experience with the product was second hand, and has been from the start amazingly understanding and helpfull. If his reputaion had not been such, I would not have taken the job. But because of his flexability, and that this was just one of several jobs that he hired me for, I want to spare him whatever extra costs I can.So now you have seen into the most intimate corners of this contract. I know that alot of this is very unprofessional compared to what happens in more urban areas, but I am living in a very sparsely populated county, where integrity and communication take the place of lawers four times out of five.And the only time I don't smile, is when the coffee runs out.Thanks bunches, listening to all of you, I think I am on the

          4. Ryan_C | Feb 09, 2000 04:02am | #8

            *Scott,Sounds like you;ve got it under control and everybody stood up and no body played the blame game. Great.That's why I moved back to the country.

          5. chris_Boland | Jun 10, 2000 04:46am | #9

            *I've recently passed the California Contractors license exam but the license will not be issued until a workers compensation policy is issued. State Fund (a workers compensation provider) has quoted a rate of 48%. All the research I've done seems to hugest that this rate is 2 to 3 times higher than it should be.Should I bite the bullet and hire one worker for a year, declining work that would require more?

          6. sssSonny_Lykos | Jun 10, 2000 08:25pm | #10

            *Chris, check with an employee leasing company. I hae taht set-up for myself and my one employee. It costs me about 2% of payroll but I get a great sorkers comp rate since the rate is base on the total membership amount of the leasing company. Teh other attributes is that I only pay them one check each week and they take care of all of the IRS forms and all taxes.My total is 18% of payroll - I'm in Florida - which covers their percentage, W/C, state and federal unemployment and FICA. I consider it to be a deal!

          7. greg_martin | Jun 13, 2000 07:30am | #11

            *Chris - I specialize in insuring custom homebuilders and know how frustrating it is to get started. My best advice is to look at your one year business plan, the total number of employees and annual payroll by trade, then divide it in half and present it to SCIF (State Fund) that way. The key is the trades you are using and the hourly rates you will be paying. The base rate of a carpenter under $20 per hour is $27.86 per $100 but pay them over $20 and teh rate goes down to $16 (close to that anyway I did not bring my rates home - I'm not that sick). Call me tommorow if you like and I'll walk you through the options - you don't need to buy from me - its free advice number is (310) 543-9995 Greg Martin

  2. Scott_Davis | Jun 13, 2000 07:30am | #12

    *
    I am a new contractor (18 months self
    employed) and have run into a problem. I
    took a job laying an interior stone
    floor, 2000 sq ft. The design was from a
    very respected cabinetry
    builder/designer. He also selected the
    stone, and a sealer. I had never before
    done an instalation of this nature, and
    the owner has been very flexible and
    understanding concerning the price. The
    job looked great, I made some money,
    everyone was happy.

    Three weeks after the sealer was cured,
    it began to "dryout". In a period of
    about two weeks, 60% of the floor looks
    like it was never sealed. I had spent
    roughly two weeks on my knees sealing
    that S.O.B. The sealer is very tricky,
    requiring two or three wipe downs to
    avoid milking. Anyway the manufacturer
    is very helpfull, and is willing to
    refund the amount of the sealer used,
    send additional sealer at no cost, or
    send another sealer at no cost. BUT,
    they will not compensate me for my
    labor. If I end up using less sealer
    than at first, to redo the floor ( it
    would be the fourth coat) they are
    willing to reemburse me the difference
    between the original amount, minus the
    new amount used. is that clear? But
    suppose I use as much sealer as before?
    Who pays for my labor on a callback that
    was not my fault?

    Scott Davis

    P.S. The Manufacturer, upon describing
    the project and how I applied their
    product, agrees that the fault lies

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