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I am the frustrated wife of a finish carpenter, and would really appreciate some feedback.
We live in a rural area and my husband is currently employed by a local contractor. Over the years he has purchased anything he ever needed to do whatever he had to do. When we first moved to where we are 10 years ago, work was hard to come by, so he worked independently, and did odd jobs here and there. When he needed a tool or bit for a specific project he just went out and got it. As time went by, he got picked up by different contractors who always ask in their interview – what do you have? Or the ad for the job would say must have reliable transportation to work and “basic tools”.
Once he wrote a list of the tools he had, and the employer was a real jerk – “If you are so experienced and have all that stuff, why don’t you have your own license and your own company”?
What it boils down to, is he isn’t a business man – he is a carpenter. Tell him what you need to be done and he does it. He doesn’t estimate or make bids or sell. He just builds and solves problems. He doesn’t want to shop around or deal with the financial stuff, he just wants to get it done.
We figured out that income was more steady if he just went for wages, as friends that were “independent contractors”, bid jobs and usually came out on the short end of the stick and couldn’t always satisfy the tax man.
In the meantime, he loads up his truck and takes his compressor, hoses, chop saw, router and bits, laminate trimmer, nail guns and pinners, finish blades, and all the other goodies that he needs to the job site. His foreman is the kind of guy who thinks the company should provide all the tools and won’t bring any of his stuff. Then he ends up borrowing nail sets, extension cords, levels and squares, chuck keys, you name it – pencils! And a lot of it ends up missing in action. So we get more, for our projects… and those blades and bits are expensive! The boss doesn’t want to pay more per hour just for the tools, so the wages are at this time still rural – about $12.00 an hour below in city fare.
And life goes on… There is still the cost of running the truck back and forth to the store to pick up materials, and hauling stuff home from the jobsite so it won’t get ripped off. The other guys just have cars or little trucks without canopies. We also pay our own insurance, as this is not a company truck. And when it comes home I use it to go get groceries, with all the jobsite stuff in it.
So lately, he has been electing to not take his tools to the job. Because he doesn’t like the other guys using his metal sawhorses when he needs them and trashing them till they can’t fold up, or having them unplug his extension cords when he is making cuts. He doesn’t like people using his finish hammer to dig up rocks under posts and leaving it in the dirt. He doesn’t like his battery drills being tossed off the roof or router bits disappearing along with batteries, chuck keys, carpet knives, nail punches, and speed squares. And all that kind of stuff…
So we got to wondering, is there a “LIST” of what all is considered “basic tools”, and what all an employer should in good conscience be providing. It is nice, when you bring specialty stuff to the job site, and then they offer to buy you a new blade or bit every once in a while, but as far as I know this is a very sensitive subject. No one seems to want to discuss it and I thought it would be a great topic for “Breaktime”.
We really want to feel out the general consensus – from both contractors and employees. Who should provide the tools, if pay is standard for the area, (not DOE), and what makes up a list of “Basic TOOLS”?
Thank you for your time and feedback! We look forward to hearing from you!
Replies
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Okay, I'll comment. As an employer and framing contractor I only require my guys to supply a saw and cord and basic hand tools, a hammer and tape and nail puller etc. If he has a nail gun, hoses and a compressor, that is worth more money to me. I also take care of any repair while he is in my employ. My lead carpenter has a pickup fully loaded with tools and gets top dollar for our area. I do think that if a guy is bringing specialty tools to the job he should be compensated in some fashion. I base the hourly rate on all these factors; experience, attitude, production, and the ability to just do the work.
*If others are a problem, take only what fits in your tool belt.Jon
*Lee,It sounds like your husband is one of those guys who is taken advantage of because he won't stand up for himself. There is probably nothing to be done until he does. For our company we only require basic hand tools, no power tools, cords, ladders, etc. That said, some of the guys have tools just as your husband. There is no expectation that these tools be used on our jobs, but often they are. These tools are not for general use, though can be used with permission by the owner. It is a delicate matter for some and no big deal for others. The important thing is that the owner of the tools is comfortable with the situation. Your husband will have to establish his own set of rules and enforce them himself. He could start by leaving his tools home until his boss appreciates just how much they are used. Good luck.
*I am sorry for your troubles. We can't always pick our bosses or our co-workers.....an imperfect world.I agree with Schelling, your husband must stand up to the boss, (more money and tools) and stand up to the co-workers, (Don't Touch!) Having said that.....Bring only what the others are expected to bring....If your husband is getting paid the same as the others, bring the same tools they do.Bring a belt, loaded with basics......Let the boss and that pathetic Lead figure out how your going to cut the wood, and on what, (no sawhorses) get power to their power tools and don't lend out your basic tools.Luck
*Lee,Lead carpenters bring in all the tools your husband has and get paid more than a carpenter with a belt, tape, hammer.As to sharing tools, never share with someone who is without tools and always share with your best friend who has as much invested and recipricates shares with you! Set your sharing rules, explain them at the first meeting with any and all jobsite coworkers and stick to your guns!That's all your husband needs to know.
*Your DH is being used horribly but as stated, he may be helping. He should keave all but the basics at home or look for other work with the competition, All I require is the basics: hand tools, circ saw, drill/driver cords to drive them. Routers, bits planers, tablesaws are for me to get on the job. That said, most of my guys bring their own portable tablesaws, mitre saws and routers anyway. We get along well and borrow each others stuff. Men who will mistreat ANY tool, regardless of who it belongs to, will also do crappy work, kick their dogs, cheat on their wives, and fail to pay the taxman. He needs a new peer group. BTW this scenario is why a lot of us become independents even though we don't really want to do all the business paper work. Some guys have wives who help with that end of things. Others need to keep the wife out of the business because she'll spend all the business capital on curtains for the house. Where do you fit in? Are you the bossy wife type? or a supportive home maker. Sounds like he needs assertiveness training regardless of what way he goes. For the time being he should keep the major tools at home and practice assertiveness by firmly explaining to the boss what is going on and why he reached this decision. It is costing the employer money to have a bunch of jerks ripping him off. Maybe I've read too much into this but my fifty years on this earth have taught mer a litle bit about people. How you all find your niche.
*Dear Mrs. Rife,Tradesmen require tools and their tool compliment often reflects their skill level and pay. Mechanics should be fully equipped with tools for the tasks at hand. You need to submit your receiptsfor purchases to the employer, i.e. blades, bits,abrasives and other consummables. Some companies havea policy regarding this aspect of the business.Sharing your stuff puts you on the road of good intentions. We all know where that leads.
*Have your husband put a mouse trap in his bucket of tools
*Mrs Rife,Dan-O brings up a good point. Does your husband know Exactly what the company policy is. I know in rural situations things are different then in urban/suburban situations. A lot more is required in Rural as steady work is harder to come by. There is a lot of barter type work but work for a paycheck is a premium. He needs to have a long sit down with the boss and explain in a nice way the situation and what his feelings are about it. Maybe come to some sort of agreement with his boss/ owner of the company.
*Lee,I don't expect our crew members to bring any more than the basic stuff. Having said that, the basic stuff is a pretty good chunk of change for a trim and cabinet man.I supply table saws, planers, jointers, ladders, compressors, hoses, mitre boxes, saw horses, router bits, saw blades, sawzalls, the specialty stuff too much to mention, all the throwaway stuff like glue, sandpaper, sawzall blades, knife blades, anything that can be used up in the process of building.I expect a good man to have his own skil saw, jig saw, router, drills, nail guns, edge and hand tools like levels, chisels, screwdrivers, planes, etc.I pay for repairs and sharpening. I also replace tools worn out over time.Your husband sounds like a good guy. If I were to hire him, I'd make him leave a lot of his own stuff at home. But a lot of the people in our company prefer to use thier own stuff. And that's OK too. Who they loan them to is out of my hands.Small town work is hard to find. You know that. He probably feels that without certain tools, he can't do the job as quickly or as easily. I agree. That doesn't mean he has to lend them out to the whole crew. I think he should take to work just what he needs for that day. Not enough for everyone. If someone says, "Tomorrow would you bring your planer because I have some wood to plane down" he should say no, with everybody using my tools they are getting used up and who is going to replace them when they're broken down? He sould just say that it's not his job to provide for the whole company. His boss has got to agree with that and understand that if he wants your husband to supply certain tools for the crew, he has to pay for that or buy the tools himself. A small raise in pay won't cover the cost of three or four major tools a year. He'll just break even.My wife does the books for our company. It's not easy, but it's not rocket science either. We have a method that works and we stick with it. We put everything we can back into the company to allow for cash flow and it works.I didn't want to start my own business either. Now I wouldn't go back.Good luck,Ed.
*I want my lead guy to bring his whole arsenal but I'm paying him $20/hr (rural) , my $12 guy brings his nail bags and a saw if he's got one , my $8 guy just brings his nailbags and a good attitude.I bring everything else.Dave
*Aj, it's amazing how I've formed similar attitudes such as yours. I'm never afraid to loan or share my tools with a guy that has a lot of tools. I'm always unwilling to share or loan to a guy that doesn't have anything. I just say NO! I won't even lend them a pencil for one second!blue
*Lee, there are many ways for your hubby to fix the situation. He can learn to say no. That's usually the easiest policy. He can offer to do the job, with the tool that is being requested. For instance, if a young fella asks to borrow my knife, to sharpen his pencil, I refuse to hand him my knife, but offer to sharpen his pencil. If asks to borrow my nail puller, which is in my belt, I ask him which nails he needs pulled. I'll pull them for him.When someone asks to borrow a tool, ask them where theirs is. If it's in the car, tell them to walk out and get it. If they don't own one, tell them where the nearest Home Depot is and tell them to get in their car and go buy one.Like I said, it's easier to say no. After a few no's most crewmen will take the hint and quit asking. If I see someone using something of mine, without permission, I immediatly take it out of their hands and tell them I don't appreciate someone going into my box. I recently had a young kid mention that he went into my truck looking for something. I explicity told him to never go in there again, for anything. I also have a crude bartering system that involves his girlfriend-you know, the use of my nail puller for a night with her....In short, just say no.blueps Send a request for repayment for any and all lost or stolen tools that are a result of other company members using his stuff.
*Lee,I agree with what others are saying. He should be compensated for using his investment on the job, and he's gotta work out something with the company and the foreman. If he's making the same $ as a guy that only brings his tool belt, then he's really making less, as you've found out. Good luck.
*I'm in a rural but high end market so I come into contact with a large number of workers. I bring in lots of personal tools. Three things seem to work: Everything is CLEARLY marked to be mine. No confusion since everybody's speed square looks alike.I try not to loan anything out of my sight.I pitch a fit every now and then. I hardly ever lose anything.
*Lee,
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*Joe, You just said exactly what I have been thinking the past couple days, but couldn't actualy gell out of the corners of my brain.Mr Rife's boss and co-workers are happy with him in the box he is in. They are not going to be happy at all if he tries to change. Especialy since if he changes, that will mean that the money suddenly has to come out of someone else's pockets.Even in an area where jobs are very difficult/impossible to find, it'll be easier to change jobs than to try to change the boss' stripes. Or those of his co-workers. If Mr Rife cannot afford to go on paying for what the company should be paying for, then he cannot afford to go on working for this particular company. He'd be better of being a pencil salesman.
*I agree with Joseph. It's gonna be hard to change when everyone expects him to bring all his tools. It will either get ugly or they're gonna work on him being a nice guy and talk him into bringing his stuff in to work. Dave
*Yah. Everyone is right there...If I hire a guy up as "my" employee as day-labor or to work on a long-term project, I provide all the tools other than normal stuff (hammer, toolbelt, water, etc.). If I hire a subcontractor, I expect them to have everything they need to do the job. Tell your husband to stand up on his own two feet and say enough is enoug; either no speical tools on these jobs, or charge a heck of a lot more for the work.
*What a great post!I can't answer the question, because I don't know what kind of work he does, e.g., finish, frame, residential or commercial.A basic carpenter in my area (SoCal) brings only hand tools, e.g., whatever he can fit on or inside a belt. The boss supplies anything that plugs in.I like Blue's idea of what to say when people borrow tools.If the guy still wants to bring all his goodies, and not get reimbursed for breakage, then hey, thats up to him.
*Joe, That's what I thought I said.
*I'm glad to be working out of the union hall, the working agreement spells out exactly the tools I'm expected to bring on the job(basic hand tools) and the contractor supplies the rest.I'll never get rich working by the hour, but neither have a whole lot of employers I've seen come and go.
*Lee,A few companies that I have worked for actually handed me a paper with just about every tool you could build a house with listed on it and was asked to check off each tool that I had in my inventory. The more tools you had, the more money you made and in the long run it worked out good for everyone. Don't let him "enable" his boss to take advantage of him. cc
*I always take everything I might possibly need to a job. That way I can stil work if the boss goes to get something but has what I need in his truck. I do however get annoyed with those who have only the basics and see me as a way to earn $$ with no responsibilty and no outlay. After repeatedly asking and then telling one guy I worked with to not go into my tool bag, I finally told him I would bash the daylights out of him with a hammer if he did it again. He didnt. Lee, sounds like the opinion of some others is the right one. If your husband gets a job with someone else and lays down the rules right from the start, this situation will probably stop. In all likelyhood the ones who use others tools and damage or loose them have probably been told to get lost many times befroe anyway. Telling them again wont hurt.
*Sometimes, I feel like i'm that guy! I go and buy all my own tools cause the boss supplies me with junk tools...out of square mitre saw, shakey old tablesaw, half dead drills with duct tape hanging...you get the picture. Now, I don't get paid too bad, but it just doesn't seem like enough for suppling the tools (albeit I wasn't asked to). My solution is to go back to school for business. hopefully, I'll learn enough to have my own business or take on a partner. Hey, the future is what you make it...you can go on complaining or you can do something about it...I'm doing something about it!Gabe Keway
*It sounds like this guy's work is worth a lot more than he gets paid for it, because he doesn't have the business chutzpah to to get himself the best deal he can. Actors are a lot like that, and that's why they have agents.Perhaps he could slowly wean the company off of the tool borrowing. Bring less and less each week, and if somebody asks for something he used to provide, he can tell them that he loaned it out and it didn't come back or it got broken....-- J.S.
*It sounds like this guy's work is worth a lot more than he gets paid for it, because he doesn't have the business chutzpah to to get himself the best deal he can. Actors are a lot like that, and that's why they have agents.Perhaps he could slowly wean the company off of the tool borrowing. Bring less and less each week, and if somebody asks for something he used to provide, he can tell them that he loaned it out and it didn't come back or it got broken....-- J.S.
*xjohn,But then he has to take up lying to deal with someone elses irresponsibility - standards go down and every body looses that way 'cause it becomes a habit. I'd rather clear out than let'm downgrade me to their level like that.
*I hire people, I supply the tools outside of their tool belt. I subcontract people they supply whats needed. Hubby should just show up with a basic supply of tools in the belt, just like everyone else. If anybody asks he can just let them know that he is simply an employee like them and is tired of being used and abused. If his co-workers dont like it they can be told to p**s off, he's tired of supporting them. If the boss doesn't like it he can bring up the point of wages, tool allowances, subcontracting etc. Or he can continue to be abused. I speak from personal experience. In the last week I had to tell two people, both close to me and one who probably qualifies as my best friend that I don't loan my tools. My personal policy is simply that I don't ask to borrow your tools, don't ask to borrow mine. This is sometimes hard to explain. After continual requests I finally said, "look, quit asking to borrow things, then I don't have to say no." I hate to say no, but I have never had a positive experience loaning tools out. They come back abused, ill cared for, broken or just too late. My policy is based on my personal experiences. I had just had a friend ask to borrow a tool, I refused. They got upset cause I had one and they stated that they couldn't afford to buy one. Between the husband and wife they make about three times my familys income. But what really burned me is that I was told they couldn't afford it after hearing about their week long ski vacation for the previous half hour. I can't afford to take the family out of town to ski for a week but I buy the tools I need (want?). Their priorities and mine are different. But if my tool is abused the money won't be going for a new tool. And I know I'll hear about the latest ski vacation. In summation of the above diatribe. Have him take only the tools to the jobsite that he can keep in his belt, and thereby keep under his personal control. If the boss decides that he isn't showing up with enough then its time to talk about raises, tool allowances etc. If his standard of work goes down have then the boss needs to know about the poor tools he is supplying. Scott
*Ah, yes, piffin -- As George Burns said, "The most important thing in this business is sincerity. Once you learn to fake that, you got it made." ;-)-- J.S.
*xJS,and don't my customers know it!;-)
*Scott, I get real tickled when someone gets mad at me because I won't loan them my tools. Of course, if you immediatly ask them to borrow the same tool from their supply, they'll be puzzled and tell you they don't have one. I suppose they would also be puzzled if you were mad at them for not being able to use their tool. I don't really care if I get someone mad for saying no. Usually, the madder they get, the less inclined they will ever be to ask again. Mission accomplished.blue
*I used to carry a surveyors tape measure (tenths of a foot) and whenever someone wanted to "borrow" a tape I would lend them that one. Then I would watch them try to use it. Within 30 seconds it would be returned and they would never ask again.
*Great trick Mike!.....I still want a metric tape that is just metric...I may just have to buy one now quick to use as my loner!!!!I like the can I borrow your tool rebuttal too!A wee bit wiser for just a moment of so, near the stream,aj
*We appreciate everyone's comments and advice! It came fast and timely and I am happy to say the problem has been resolved. The employer was contacted about the issue, and his response was positive. He said he understood completely and to say no more about it. He informed the rest of the crew that these tools were off limits, and they responded favorably too, as they all felt the same way! Thanks fellas! Thank you Fine Homebuilding!
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I am the frustrated wife of a finish carpenter, and would really appreciate some feedback.
We live in a rural area and my husband is currently employed by a local contractor. Over the years he has purchased anything he ever needed to do whatever he had to do. When we first moved to where we are 10 years ago, work was hard to come by, so he worked independently, and did odd jobs here and there. When he needed a tool or bit for a specific project he just went out and got it. As time went by, he got picked up by different contractors who always ask in their interview - what do you have? Or the ad for the job would say must have reliable transportation to work and "basic tools".
Once he wrote a list of the tools he had, and the employer was a real jerk - "If you are so experienced and have all that stuff, why don't you have your own license and your own company"?
What it boils down to, is he isn't a business man - he is a carpenter. Tell him what you need to be done and he does it. He doesn't estimate or make bids or sell. He just builds and solves problems. He doesn't want to shop around or deal with the financial stuff, he just wants to get it done.
We figured out that income was more steady if he just went for wages, as friends that were "independent contractors", bid jobs and usually came out on the short end of the stick and couldn't always satisfy the tax man.
In the meantime, he loads up his truck and takes his compressor, hoses, chop saw, router and bits, laminate trimmer, nail guns and pinners, finish blades, and all the other goodies that he needs to the job site. His foreman is the kind of guy who thinks the company should provide all the tools and won't bring any of his stuff. Then he ends up borrowing nail sets, extension cords, levels and squares, chuck keys, you name it - pencils! And a lot of it ends up missing in action. So we get more, for our projects... and those blades and bits are expensive! The boss doesn't want to pay more per hour just for the tools, so the wages are at this time still rural - about $12.00 an hour below in city fare.
And life goes on... There is still the cost of running the truck back and forth to the store to pick up materials, and hauling stuff home from the jobsite so it won't get ripped off. The other guys just have cars or little trucks without canopies. We also pay our own insurance, as this is not a company truck. And when it comes home I use it to go get groceries, with all the jobsite stuff in it.
So lately, he has been electing to not take his tools to the job. Because he doesn't like the other guys using his metal sawhorses when he needs them and trashing them till they can't fold up, or having them unplug his extension cords when he is making cuts. He doesn't like people using his finish hammer to dig up rocks under posts and leaving it in the dirt. He doesn't like his battery drills being tossed off the roof or router bits disappearing along with batteries, chuck keys, carpet knives, nail punches, and speed squares. And all that kind of stuff...
So we got to wondering, is there a "LIST" of what all is considered "basic tools", and what all an employer should in good conscience be providing. It is nice, when you bring specialty stuff to the job site, and then they offer to buy you a new blade or bit every once in a while, but as far as I know this is a very sensitive subject. No one seems to want to discuss it and I thought it would be a great topic for "Breaktime".
We really want to feel out the general consensus - from both contractors and employees. Who should provide the tools, if pay is standard for the area, (not DOE), and what makes up a list of "Basic TOOLS"?
Thank you for your time and feedback! We look forward to hearing from you!