I want to get the opinions of the think-tank here at BT. I am looking to hire someone and those that are interested are responding via email. <!—-><!—-><!—->
My concern is with the ability (or lack thereof) of applicants to write completely and coherently… and follow instructions.<!—-><!—->
I ask for contact information which virtually none of them include. These responses are rife with simple spelling errors which indicates to me that the applicants do not care enough to make a good impression upon me now and I worry about how they will continue this trend in the future as an employee.<!—-><!—->
I have received 10 responses so far. Of those, one was well-written. The others do not even address me and are one run-on paragraph as though it were a pal dropping me a casual email.<!—-> <!—->
Am I being too harsh, too exacting, too particular? I may very well pass on the perfect guy due to his poor communication skills or I may hire the wrong guy because he is more literate. I don’t know that there is a failsafe way to separate the wheat from the chaff. Maybe some of you can lend me your input.<!—-><!—->
Here is one of the better, not the best, replies so far:<!—-> <!—->
I am a seasoned carpenter who is reliable and proud of my work. I have been working in the trades for 9 years. I am very confterable taking any job from blueprints to completion while meeting demanding deadlines. I like a challenge and I am a believer in anything can be accomplished. I hate excuses. I’m diverse and have ran entire homes with electrical and plumbing but my strongest skill is finish carpentry. I have done allot of framing and am efficient but I do take a little more time on complicated roof lines than a person who frames full time. I am extremely knowledgeable and skilled but im never to stubborn to listen to some one else. I have worked alongside some amazing carpenters and have learned something from everyone . I have all top of the line tools, reliable <!—-> <!—-><!—->Toyota<!—-> <!—-> Tundra and a new hallmark trailer. Fell free to contact me and we can go over my references and job history I fell you will be impressed.<!—-> <!—->
When you’re this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
Replies
I'd hire that guy in a heartbeat.
Unless he's lying.
Maybe the perfect guy's out there somewhere, but a guy with tools who can cut a roof & do finish AND speaks English is a good start.
Joe H
He might be exagerating a bit - who doesn't when they are proud of themselves and the work they do?but I don't think he is lying. Two things tell me so - he is not afraid to tell of his shortcomings right up froont along with his long goings, ande he has tools enough to need a tool trailer and has invested enough in his trade tools to be that far along. That means he has had the kind of good jobs that pay enogh to get there. That tells me somebody else along the way has had some success with him.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
A carpenters tools are a hammr, and sawz, not a kyboard. So what if there R a few spellink errors, if the doude says he can do what he sayz, hire the persun.
Pete,
Firstly, take every resume you read with a grain of salt. Prospective employees will always tell you what they think you want to hear, that's their job. In this case, this fella is doing his best to describe himself to you. Although it is clear he is not very comfortable typing, and his spelling is terrible, he might actually be a good carpenter.
He claims he has a nice new truck and trailer and all the toys. That could mean he is successfull at what he does. Or it just means he stole it. I would be curious why he's not working for himself.
At my present state of mind, (depending on what you are looking for of course), I would be inclined to go to the local trade college and pick up some young fella that isn't full of himself yet. I'm still a little bitter from my last experience. LOL
Here's something you could try. Hire three or four. Tell them all that only one position is available. They are competing for the position. Let them work for a week, paid.
Then pick the one you want. It's a little cold but it will sure bring out the true nature of each applicant. Stick a little camera some where and see if they try to sabotage each other. Hell, sounds like the making of a reality T.V. show. You'll make a fortune. Don't forget my 10%.
Dave
I wouldn't base my hiring on typing and sentence structure alone, some of the best guys who have ever worked for me barely made it through school. What they did posess though was a strong grasp of the trades and a work ethic.
I would invite each of the potential hires in for a face to face interview and take note of how they present themselves in appearance, verbal communication skills, and overall work experience.
See what they have to say about prior supervisors and the things that they both liked and disliked about those jobs. This to me shows in a way how my customers will perceive them, and like most things in life perception plays a huge role in everything.
I would personally rather have a guy with a good attitude and work ethic than one who has an degree and isn't willing to learn...
Are you hiring a carpenter or an editor?
I think that many folks who get involved in the trades as a career were turned off by the traditional academic learning track in school and their abilities in these areas reflect this.
The email you posted suggests someone with an above average vocabulary and good conversational English, but lacking spelling, punctuation and other editing skills. These indicate that he is likely more than adequate in terms of communicating with customers and co-workers.
I can't imagine not hiring a candidate for an editor's job because his carpentry skills were inadequate. I think the inverse is also true.
I second the notion that if this guy is telling the truth, (my guess is that he is, from the way things are written) then he is certainly worthy of an interview.
Good luck.
"My concern is with the ability (or lack thereof) of applicants to write completely and coherently"
Are you the editor of the local paper or a contractor?
Choose the best, have him start working and you ought to know if you want to keep him in a couple of hours. If it is not working out, call number 2. Unlike most office jobs which involve writing ability, it is hard to fake it in the trades. Good luck in finding your man (or woman).
Yeah, I figured I was being too particular...
I have to admit that poor writing in these emails is a turn-off though..... along the lines of first impressions.
BUT
I agree with the sentiment that these guys aren't applying for editorial positions and by passing them for lack of literate skills may be a mistake, as I expressed that concern in my original post.
I will put literacy aside and interview those that seem to be well-rounded enough in experience.
Thanks to all of you for bringing me to my senses.
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
http://www.petedraganic.com/
Pete,I struggle with the same thing as you. I want everyone who works for us to be clean-shaven, eloquent, and well read. In reality, I probably don't even measure up to all of those criteria.Along the lines of what FatRoman said, I was tempted to reply to your post saying "it looks like _____ or ______ (BT regulars) applied for your job".I didn't do that, because I didn't want to come across in the wrong manner. Still, even if their spelling is not perfect, I would jump at the chance if they ever came to me for work.One other point- I think a lot of people automatically view email as a more informal communication method. I won't say that I'm meticulous about every email I send off, but I don't often send a one line email that does not start with a capital letter and end with a period. Many, especially younger people, do not seem to have the same viewpoint. Maybe that's why the email you received was not as polished as you were expecting.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
You and I are in the same boat on this one.
My ad does say that you shouldn't reply if you can't put together complete sentences.... lol.
Here are excerpts from the ad:
Please reply with a brief history of work experience, desired compensation and why you are right for this position. If you cannot write in full sentences, please don't bother applying. You should be mathematically proficient. Please include your address and all applicable contact numbers. I am a decent guy to work for but I do insist on keeping a respectable and professional image with clients. We will not work with shirts off or loud music on our jobs. We will remain professional and produce good results.
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
http://www.petedraganic.com/
Interesting post....
The customers I deal with would not tolerate anything less than perfect diction for the most part.
That being said I would not expect that from one of my crew. Otherwise he would be doing my job..........
I do alot of project management and deal with quite a bit of money. They want to know you are on the ball.
On a hill by the harbour
Your customers have much in common with mine, and I suspect that is at the heart of Pete's concern. He wants each employee to project that his is a quality business.I never hear my customers speak ill of a person or competitor who does not speak well, butthey do make positive comments to me like, "I love working with you because I know that you understand what I want" or "This That design captures what I wanted exactly. I could tell you were listening when we spoke." or "thank you for expressing that so concisely." or "I've never worked with a contractor before who could say so much and still be brief. You are very efficient with your words and my time."They see these things as signs of an organized mind and assume that mind will be working on their behalf, organizing the job to flow smoothly as well.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
"thank you for expressing that so concisely." or "I've never worked with a contractor before who could say so much and still be brief. You are very efficient with your words and my time."
That's one I've never heard. Note to self."This is a process, not an event."--Sphere
I know some great carps that can't make a sentence........... When I talk to them about how to build something they always seem to make sense of my explanation.
This begs to ask the question just because they can't compose a sonnet doesn't mean they can't understand how to build something.
On a hill by the harbour
Don't hire that guy.
Send his contact info to me instead and I'll deal with it for you.
In all seriousness, I understand what you're saying... if they don't care enough to push spellcheck during what amounts to a first impression from a potential job opportunity.... then how good can their attention to detail really be?
Even still, that guy is at least worthy of making it to Round 2 so to speak. I'd follow up on that guy and find out if he is truly 'as advertised'. Like the other guys said.... at the end of the day you're looking for a pro nail banger, not a pro key banger.
Well, let's take the example of this forum. I've seen some spelling and grammatical errors here that would make an English teacher blush. Maybe the poster was typing too quickly, or maybe they can't spell worth a darn to begin with. But you know, I'd hire most of them without hesitation to do some work for me, because I can see that they have a passion for making the job a successful one.
People in the current day of email communication are also a little less formal and breezier in their tone than they used to be in the days of letter writing or typing. Not saying that's good, but just what I've noticed.
Take another example of a friend of mine who is an attorney. Bachelor's, Law and Master of Law degrees and he can't spell his way out of a paper bag. I nearly fell to the floor in laughter one day when he wrote me about this new item in his bathroom, the pedalstool sink. But if I have a legal question regarding my business, I go to him because he knows the law, cold.
I remember hearing a comment about Terry Bradshaw being so dumb that he couldn't spell 'Cat' if you spotted him the 'c' and the 'a'. I'd still want him on my football team.
So, unless this guy is going to be writing contracts for you, I'd take the one that gives you the best gut reaction. If he's just talking with your clients, what difference does it make if he can only spell seven out of ten words correctly? It will probably turn out well. And as someone above pointed out, if not, there's a waiting applicant pool.
Good luck. Hope it turns out well for you.
Pete,
when I was a young man converting from the truss/block shell framing of Florida to the stick framing of the north, I worked for a guy who never failed to have a bit of wisdom for every occasion.
From his point of veiw.....
a. you can tell a Carpenter by his saw horses
b. you can tell a man by what he drives
c. Anyone can buy NEW tools.
His interview process was easy. What do your tools look like? too new? No good.
your car/truck? Could be old, but was it clean and taken care of?
If your looking for a detail oriented project manager, That E-Mail might not be the best sign.
looking for a Carpenter who might turn out to be a good job foreman?
Hey, he has a relatively new truck, a computer and has paid his bills regularly enough to have internet access. And even if his spelling isn't perfect, it is english.
Best of all, if even 3/4 of that is true, he's learned a good part of the craft as opposed to being a framer who trimmed a house one winter or a trimmer who helped a friend frame a roof one time.
Hey I've got a van that generally always looks like a disaster. I'm also the boss who doesn't have time to clean it out often. I like to think I'm a decent carpenter especially since I pay more attention to the job than my van."it aint the work I mind,
It's the feeling of falling further behind."Bozini Latini
My concern is with the ability (or lack thereof) of applicants to write completely and coherently…
me,me,me,me,me,me,,..!
LOL!!!!!
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
http://www.petedraganic.com/
Pete
There was a guy on here a while back that was running for gov of some state, dont rememeber which one.......he posted a link to his website and someone pointed out a gramatical error, was that guy qulified to run for gov?
Hell I'm just glad that Brownbagg is on this site cause that way I dont look like the only guy that missed a few comp classes!
There are some guys on here who cant spell to save their lives, me included, others who's spelling and sentence structure are impecable but niether have anything to do with wheather or not I'd hire one of them.
Doug
Hell I'm just glad that Brownbagg is on this site cause that way I dont look like the only guy that missed a few comp classes!The bad part about is. about ten years ago, I wrote a column every month for a oil field trade magazine. I is a publish author, over thirty times. I did this for about three years.
'Bagg, that's not surprising. I've worked in several different capacities for two different publishers. The "before" version and the "after" version are sometimes a bit . . . ah, different. <G>I've always maintained that one of the hallmarks of editorial greatness is the ability to preserve an author's voice while producing an article that is concise, easy to read, informative, and factually accurate.Tht's not as easy as it sounds sometimes. <G>
I,m busy writing my non fiction novel right now " the command of conversation"
Aaaaaah! Ack cough prrrrttttttttttthhththppp gag sweat shake fall over backwards out of the chair thump head on flooroops, you need a new editor now, the old one just died.
"concise, easy to read, informative, and factually accurate."Would you please go into mainstream media? Just once, I would like to see them hit all of the points you posted, especially the accurate part.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Me; Hell I'm just glad that Brownbagg is on this site cause that way I dont look like the only guy that missed a few comp classes!
You; The bad part about is. about ten years ago, I wrote a column every month for a oil field trade magazine. I is a publish author, over thirty times. I did this for about three years.
I wrote a paper for my college history class that was published, the prof said that it was the best paper submitted that year!
It took me three days of constant rewritting to get that 1 1/2 page paper right.
When I'm on here I dont put enough effort into making sure my sentence structure and spelling are correct. If I'd known I was going to be graded I would have tried harder!
My comp II prof told us that she was terrible at spelling, said it was because she was so used to seeing misspelled words that it tainted her, dont know if she was pulling our leg or not.
Doug
I have a "thing" about no unintended errors, so it can take me an hour to write a one page post.
Which is probabley good for you guysd or ti awould come out spomething like this and no one would understand em at5 asll/
SamT
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. [Einstein] Tks, BossHogg.
I guess I'm more relaxed about it here - I do proof and rewrite about three times for client communications.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I was in the HS GATE program ...
gifted stuff.
that got me outta the basic english requirements.
so I fast tracked it thru HS english.
that got me past basic college level english.
so I ended up in the advanced wrighting classes.
that teached liked me and my buddies idea about Fri classes at the bar.
seriously.
underage .. we knew the manager. He didn't know we were underage.
we scammed a back table for our "graduate class" ...
'cept we were mostly freshmen.
wrote as well as I BS'd.
passed that writting class and others ... with lotsa BS
back then ... I cared who read my BS.
Now .. not so much.
I used lots more words then too ...
and remember it took way longer to prove a point.
thinking I used my quota of words?
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
so I ended up in the advanced wrighting classes.writing
"I used lots more words then too ..."You mean you used to fill in all those white spots between the lines with words?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I'm sure her standards were lowered by the influence of her students. After years of correcting the poor grammar the kids brought home from school, I found my self using some of the same after they had left.
Same here. I say things and use grammar on this site that appalled me a few years ago. We are each the product of whom we choose to influence us to some degree.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
<<My concern is with the ability (or lack thereof) of applicants to write completely and coherently… and follow instructions.>>
Following instructions is definitely a bona fide occupational qualification in the trades, but I wonder about the "write completely and coherently" part.
It's worth reflecting upon a bit. Do they need to be able to do this? Are you hiring an estimator who will be generating written communication? Or is this person just filling out a timesheet?
I'm all for literacy, but it's important to maintain perspective. Of the four best employees I've ever had, two had Bachelor's degrees in science, and the other two are functionally illiterate. All four are superstars on the job.
One of my guys is so illiterate his wife fills out his timesheet for him. But I bet we'd be hard pressed to find any two people who could keep up with this young man on a good day. He is everything you'd ever want in an employee. He listens, watches, thinks, learns, always takes the initiative, is intensely intelligent, loyal, and works until you tell him to stop.
Conversely, I could write you a great application letter. I've got a great truck, plenty of well used tools, and good references.
I guarantee you'd fire me before the week was over. <G>
I'd give some of the more enthusiastic ones a chance. If they show up with some callouses on their hands and the right look in their eye, who cares if they can write?
Pete
It must be the internet or the fast times we live in, because my grammar has regressed over the years, also.. This applicants letter sounds from the heart to me and I would give him a look.
I was very much impressed that salary demands weren't mentioned, he is a serious candidate, in my opinion.
Greg in Connecticut
I am a minority here.
When I first started on this board I paid no attention to punctuation, spelling, or grammar. The more time I spend here, the harder I try to do things right.
Lead by example, hire the guy and teach him to write and spell. Insist that time cards and such are filled out properly, so as to provide him a chance for further advancement.
I do not always do things right, but I try harder now then I did in the beginning.
Jeremy
The bad news is you've done exactly the right things to be exactly where you are today. "IdahoDon 1/31/07"
I agree, this board has been a positive influence on my general literary skills.
Although, I've always taken that seriously, this board is great exercise in maintaining it... because it used to be that you'd be crucified for spelling and grammar mistakes here.
BTW, you should have said but I try harder now THAN I did in the beginning
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
http://www.petedraganic.com/
Funny thing is, I typed that three or four times, (insert "than" or "then") I gave up.
Still confused.
JeremyThe bad news is you've done exactly the right things to be exactly where you are today. "IdahoDon 1/31/07"
Think "now and then", "then, he went to the..." or something like that. Then has to do with sequence of events and/or time.http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/thenThan expresses difference in comparisons- larger than, more than/less than, louder than, etc.http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/than
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
When? Then."This is a process, not an event."--Sphere
Better then than now.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
This forum has been great practice for me. I can now type three times as fast as I used to.And every now and then, I remember to proofread before hitting the "Post" button!;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin, I can type a hundred times better than I did before I started posting on the net.
blue"...
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...."
From the best of TauntonU.
I know where all the little widgets are now.
Used to know where the letters lived, but puncuation & all the little doodads were stop and look for them.
Joe H
You hiring a finish carpenter, or a paper pusher?
blue
"...
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...."
From the best of TauntonU.
Why are you looking on the 'net for good spelling, punctuation, sentence structure and grammar? That's about the last place I would look, based on what I have read and it's not just one site, forum, or message. Online news, TV shows and commercials- if I was an English teacher, I would probably shoot myself and no, I'm not going to use 'If I were'.
A dozen generations ago many of the very best carpenters who have produced works of art that we still admire today couldn't read or write.
I can introduce you to a finish carpenter that has a portfolio as good as any anywhere. He's bright, articulate, looks like a craftsman, interacts great with clients, takes direction well, has top of the line tools well worn with years of careful use, and is the first guy on site and last to leave. He's also slow as smell and can't keep a finish carp job.
I still say give those young fellas a test drive.
Good driving.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Reminds me of the period half dozen years back when applying for a job in our town consisted of building a set of sawhorses. It was supposed to show ability to layout, cut accurately, assemble quickly, blaw, blaw. What it did test was how well a guy could make a sawhorse, provide contractors all over town with free sawhorses, and not much else.
On larger crews I was the lead carp that got the rookies and enjoyed mentoring young carps and watching them rise up the totem pole. One of the things they'd be taut is how to play the application game: how to guess what the guy is looking for, what to watch out for, and finally how to build a set of saw horses that would knock their socks off.
I called it a 16-32 to make it easy to remember. Legs are 32" 2x4s with compound 16/16 degree cuts on both ends to splay them out a bit. The top is a 32" 2x6 with 16 degree bevel all the way around and the legs butt under it. OSB reinforcments are nailed to the ends and sides and amount to trianges 16" on the major edges.
These are quick to build from scraps, can hold a couple bunks of osb if needed to win a bet, are easy to remember, relatively light weight, look good, stack well, never loosen up with hard use, weather well, are quick to build and, most importantly if it's a test, they win time after time.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
I have a foreman who works for me who wrote this note to an electrician named Jeff. It was so funny I put it on the wall in my office.
"Gelf, please finsh al you wirein on the basmet so we fram the walls don ther. I taled sieding gy toady. he is com on tuday so he need yur boxs in for the lites.
He is a great capenter not a great speller.
U sure that guy wasn't named Mike Smith?
U usta type lik that.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Dear BT advisory board,
Thanks for the input. I just got off the phone with the guy that sent the email that I showed you all. His was one of about 15. I really liked what he had to say and will be meeting with him this week to discuss coming to work for me.
If this works out well, I'll have to tell him about the folks that changed my attitude about him.
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
http://www.petedraganic.com/
you wouldn't hire a surgeon based on his ability to type would you? since when do carpenters need to type well or be eloquit speakers?