*
Do all whole house humidifers produce ducts full of bacteria? Are some types worse than others?
Discussion Forum
Discussion Forum
Up Next
Video Shorts
Featured Story
Skim-coating with joint compound covers texture, renews old drywall and plaster, and leaves smooth surfaces ready to paint.
Highlights
"I have learned so much thanks to the searchable articles on the FHB website. I can confidently say that I expect to be a life-long subscriber." - M.K.
Replies
*
Want mine?
*
My previous home had an in-duct humidifier in the forced air HVAC system. I had several room mates and none of us ever had a problem. I now live in a home with a forced air system from which the humidifier has been removed. I am suffering considerably from the desert like air. I have a newborn who is also having sinus troubles (the doctor says he'll grow out of it). I've also had some valuable furniture warp during the last two months.
I need to humidify the entire house but am concerned by recent warnings of mold, bacteria and duct corrosion caused by in-duct humidifiers. Do I realy need separate stand alone units in each room or are there in-duct humidifiers that are biologicaly safe? Are any of the various types more sanitary than the others (by-pass flow-through, powered flow-through, bypass drum, mist nozzle, steam nozzle, etc)?
*
Mike... as you already know from your own previous experience, sometimes a humidifier is just the ticket..
as usual FredL is taken a few specific experiences he has had and projecting it univerasally.....
""
Every house (desert climates excluded) that needs a humidifier is broken. That’s the real story. When the indoor air is too dry, it means that the house is being flooded with outdoor air. The ventilation rate is too high.
""
If the relative humidity outside is 15%, does he mention where the humidity is supposed to come from, perhaps the house has a conveniently uncovered wet crawl space???
But , if not , the humidity has to be introduced mechanically...
I'll continue to watch this thread for inline duct humidifiers , We've got one in our unit and it functions fine, I know the technology is constantly improving...
Once you control the unwanted sources of humidity, then you have to figure a way to introduce the desired level.....
Sorry , FredL , not all houses are screwed up...some actually need humidification......
*That winter air needs humidification if heated is an obvious but irrelevant point. The important question is how much outside air you plan to humidify -- enough to fill the house once, or enough to fill it 10 times an hour? If the former, moisture sources already is the house will suffice; if the latter, the house will never be comfortable, the humidifier will be running full tilt, and excess moisture in the cooling, escaping air will be condensing out in the structure of the house. The humidifier will at best mask the symptom, rather than addressing the problem -- excessive leakage.Choose an expensive band-aid or a money-saving cure, it's your choice.
*............Andrewd.....don't be silly...who the hell is building houses that get 10 air changes an hour...sounds like bs to me...read it back and see how it sounds to you ?and what is irrelevant about needing to humidify indoor air if that is what the question is about... sounds like you agree that we need to humidify if we have controlled the air leakage, yeh, we do agree after all.....come on , buddy, lets keep the hyperbole to a minimum, hmmm?
*Well, 10 was hyperbole meant not to describe an actual house but to illustrate the point that air turnover and not the dryness of heated winter air is the relevant problem. Some houses "need" humidifiers primarily because some houses leak expensive warm air like crazy. Now that I'm starting to know where to look for the leaks, I've amazed at how much air is moving through them. The humidifiers are overmarketed, expensive, and can bring introduce problems of their own. By saving some of warm, moist air I improved the comfort of our house very quickly and cheaply. (I then pulled the roof off for an addition, but that's another story. From experience, making the house leak more -- we likely have those 10 changes/hour even with the seal I set up between 1st and 2d floors -- definitely makes the air drier!)
*
Up in Canada here, a great number of houses with forced air heating have a humidifier. (long cold winter eh) I haven't heard of the bacteria / mold problem yet. Anyone have more info or locations for info on this. Thanks.
*
FredL said: << If you have a gas fired furnace, there is a 50% chance that your baby is being poisoned right now with combustion gases.>>
I believe it is extremely irresponsible to make such a statement without supporting it with objective information. Such statements can cause undue alarm and even panic.
My own experience in doing CO analysis under the BPI protocol, and that of the the other Carbon Monoxide Analysts who I know, does not support such a claim.
About 98% of the homes we inspect in NW Ohio/SE Mich have GFA. Although we have only been offering the CO analysis since last fall, and thus have not developed a large statistical base for analysis, the number of homes we have done which have _any_ measurable CO above outdoor ambient is probably in the range of 2% - 5%, including those with a 001ppm difference (which is probably under the accuracy range of our CO meters.)
There is no universally accepted minimum figure for "acceptable" CO levels: For healthy adults, 35ppm is considered by most to be the "action level."
Note, infants, elderly, the infirm, and those with prior CO poisoning are at risk at lower levels.
Note also, I don't want to minimize the risks: CO poisoning can have very significant health effects, including chronic exposure to "low" levels. I believe it is very important to be sure your appliances are adeguately serviced and tested (including draft tests with a draft guage testing over time and operating other drafting devices during the test - bath fans, opening doors etc.) I'm merely disputing FredL's "50%" percent chance. (I also suspect his draft testing procedure is deficient.)
FredL is right that few Dr's will properly diagnose CO poisoning.
Bob Walker
Carbon Monoxide Analyst
*I wouldn't use an evaporative drum type humidifier, I see to many really ugly ones with all sorts of gunk in them.Also, FWIW, although I'm not aware of any hard info on the subject, the evaporative drip type (with the metal mesh plate and the drain line at the bottom) visually seem to be much cleaner and less likely to produce molds and bacteria.Whatever type you use, be sure to service it regularly.Bob Walker
*......Andrewd....do the math...in a 2000 sf house we have apx. 16,000 CF...at One air Change per hour (16,000 / 60 min) = 266 CFM,that's quite a blower, never mind a leak....how about this one..b ..2,666 CFM, that's the leak you describe at TEN air changes per hour....taking a note from Scott (Canadian standards) we WANT .33 AC/H or 89 CFM.....that's what we are trying to condition in a well designed , well constructed house.....
*
FredL & AndrewD,
thanks for the input, you raise valid points regarding leakage and how much air I will be humidifying. The house was built in '72 so is not as tight as those built since the '80s. I have pull-down actic stairs and some drafty windows that I have been working to seal up.
Fred - I had someone come in and test the gas furnace with some fairly sensitive equipment. The 1.5 year old furnace is burning very cleanly, the furnace room has good air quality and the flu is working well - so exaust gas is one problem I don't have. I'll revisit the furnace once I make some changes to tighten up the house.
Meanwhile - my orriginal question goes unanswered. Lets assume there can be legitimate reasons for humidification. The questions remains - Do humidifiers really introduce bacteria? Are certain technologies better than others?
Thanks,
Mike.
*
......FredL...you are such a piece of work...
you went back thru every post on this board and deleted anything you could be challenged on, including the ones in the archives....problem is you left pecker tracks all over the back seat....
now you're telling a guy living in a house you haven't seen, being advised by a Doctor you don't know, that he's got serious problems and you can fix it sitting in front of your computer....
..and then you tell a certified inspector that appears to be very concientious that he doesn't know what he's talking about....here's one of your , you've used it twice in the same post...
"""So when you see people suggest that there are legitimate uses for humidifiers, you still have to ask the question: Where is all that water going? And that leads to the undeniable conclusion that any house that needs a humidifier (outside of deserts), is broken. ""
Unless of course, they have already controlled the inflow of humidity and have no sources of water migration, and now need to mechanically add some....
BTW, FredL...since you want to play Dr. Welby...what level of RH should we maintain in our homes???
and how many air changes per hour should we be getting for good health ??? or even CFM per Person ????
*Michael Webb,
Joseph FuscoView Image© 1999"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle
*Mike, I think I see a stick figure cartoon in your future.Hope it loads quick,well said.Vince
*Yes. . .! Fire your doctor. . .
Joseph Fusco View Image© 1999"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle
*Michael, you are right that no one is listening to your question very closely. Sorry for my glib dismissal of humidifiers, but once I started to explore what was really going on I was pretty upset at the industry in general. You're still reading, so I'll assume you are interested in knowing WHY you're getting a humidifier.As you've stated, you have forced air minus a humidifier. The in-line evaporative type are pretty much standard issue now (April-Aire etc.) and bacteria etc. should not be a problem if you maintain the system. Basically, this type of humidifier drips water over a mesh exposed to the furnace updraft; a portion of the water evaporates and the rest goes down the drain. The humidifier should be controlled by a humidistat, typically placed in the return plenum. You ought to be able to get a decent system installed for a few hundred, esp. since the water and electrical connections are likely still there; this is a trivial installation.One of the first things I did when we purchased this house was have the broken humidifier replaced. Once I started to understand the house as a system, however, I came to question where all that introduced moisture -- GALLONS of it -- was disappearing to. Really, this is the important question, and should be addressed first -- find the air leaks, check for backdrafting and the like (e.g., a remarkably common error is putting a return vent too close to the gas-burning appliances -- we have one inches from the water heater) and THEN determine your need for a humidifier.Low humidity is not the problem, it is a symptom. Fix the problem. If you still want a humdifier, that's ok, I would sincerely be interested in selling you ours, in pristine 2-year-old condition, for, say, $100 + shipping.
*Michael Webb,
Joseph Fusco View Image© 1999"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle
*Fred,
Joseph FuscoView Image© 1999"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle
*Fred, it would seem to me that the Webbs have thier child's health well in hand, after all they did call a Dr. not a dence pack installer.And while we're wondering ,don't you think you're getting just a little full of yourself.Anyone you think is disagreeing with you gets the full Fred L treatment.Mike Smith didn't get the cartoon but he got the attack didn't he,So did Bob.....Micheal Webb I don't have an answer to your question ,but neither does Fred.
*Fred,
Joseph FuscoView Image© 1999"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle
*Fred,
Joseph FuscoView Image© 1999"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle
*Michael,Fusco's an ass, as his posting at 3.1 demonstrates. No substance, just protruding tongue and childish graphics. My dad always installed humidifiers in the furnaces of the many houses we lived in during his Air Force career (a lot of them). My grandmother used to put pans of water on her radiators. Thus, I grew up with the conception that houses needed extra humidity during the winter, regardless. I'd had enough early winters with a dry, bleeding nose to believe this. Consider my surprise to find when I owned my own houses in later years, ones that were new, well sealed and insulated, that when I installed and ran the same type humidifier my dad had all the previous years, my windows were like waterfalls, even at the hunidistat's lowest setting. Now I work to mitigate interior moisture during the winter.Bottom line -- you got a leaky house, as did my dad and grandmother.
*Weeks,
Joseph FuscoView Image© 1999"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle
*Fred,
Joseph FuscoView Image© 1999"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle
*............Gee ,FredL , sorry I touched a nerve...but you do sound like the schoolyard bully, with a copy of "Winning Thru Intimidation " in your back pocket...And you're still not volunteering the answer to my two basic questions.....What Relative Humidity level should we try to maintain in our homes ???and...How many Air Changes per hour (or CFM per person) is required for a healthy home ???And of course... the corollary to those is...How do we achieve those levels ???....And I have used blower doors , and pitot tubes , and manometers, and designed and sized more systems than you have , so ????I assume that with all your vast knowledge and experience, I can still learn something from you...yes even you!!It would be easier if you edited before the fact, instead of deleting your mistakes after...And it would be easier if you gave your fellow professionals a little of the respect you so much crave yourself...so lay off with the bombast, and try to have a dialogue, ok , I don't make my living by writing, or giving seminars, ...but I am still the primary source of information for my customers, and I know where to hire the expertise I need when I get beyond myself......is it too late to qualify for one of your awards at Petefest2k ?
*Joe...I used to love the flames....The cartoons are great too.....You know what....we, and I think I can speak for everyone...we really like you...you are the master of your domain.Everybody now, I want you all to join with me and email Joe with all our love for him....Joe, my greatest wish for all of us here at Breaktime, is that someday soon,the Editor's at Taunton discover the wisdom of your every word.May you and all your's dine heartily on lobster from all the traps so carefully constructed and approved by you...The master of all domains.Out training my lobsters, near the frozen stream,aj
*Jack,
Joseph FuscoView Image© 1999"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle
*Fred,you need some therapy, really, Micheal just asked about bacteria in humidifiers and as ussual you've turned it into a personel attact on me and anyone who doesn't jump on your band wagon, you didn't see his home or test anything and yet your only answer is to fire his doctor and seal his attic.You are a jerk that needs help.Vince
*Fred,I still challange you to support your assertion that <>You seem to be a fairly bright guy with a lot of experience, but I start to discount everything you say when you post such a claim (widely exagerated in my experience) and fail to provide anything to support it.I take my work seriously and recognize that I have people's lives and health in my hands. My experience might not be as long as yours, but I'm willing to dislose the basis for my beliefs and conclusions. <<Low humidity, recurring illness, and the presence of anair handler are all glaring clues, that you have missed in this case. That leads to backdrafting. It might not happen continuously, or with CO production, or when you are there waving around your meter. But we can tell for certain that the combustion appliance venting is compromised.>>Sorry, I don't see how those three "clues" lead inexorably to the conclusion you've reached. I certainly agree that further investigation is warranted, but so far as I am aware, that can only be done on site.Bob Walker
*...Mike ...I think AndrewD gave youthe state of the art answer on current humidifcation equip...FredL...it's a little late, would you mind not deleting your current post until I have chance to read it...I'm sure that the answers to my questions is buried in there somewhere...(you remember, CFM/person & RH range ???)Thanks again, Mike
*FredLAt this point, I don't care how long your posts are; I'm not bothering to read them because you're avoiding my question.Again, since it was way up the thread, you stated:<>I believe that figure is widely exagerated, and have asked twice for you to support it. You have failed to do so.You apparently don't understand that you lose a great deal of credibility when you make such unsupported claims and then fail to either support them or acknowledge their inaccuracy.That's really too bad, because I think some of what you say is probably valuable, but I'm not gonna take the time to separate the wheat from the chaff.The reason I believe it is irresponsible to post such a message is that if anyone relies on it, and in seeking medical treatment or analysis of their house, repeats it, their own credibility will be questioned and the chances a CO problem being properly evaluated diminished. It's tough enough getting Dr's and contractors to recognize CO as an important problem, without undermining credibility.Bob
* Fred,
Joseph Fusco View Image "The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." -- Plato
*Fred,my first post was a statement to Mike Smith,however "inane", that he was about to receive an angry reply to his post.(Which he did receive)It makes no mention of my agreement or disagreement with him or you.I was then personally attacted by you,I don't see this as provocation,therefore, I think you owe me the apology and you can donate $20 in my name to your favorite charity.Put your money where your mouth is.Vince
*Bob - I have attempted to skim this whole thread minus Fusco's posts - and I believe the "you" in "if you have..." refers to the Michael Webb situation and particulars - not the general population which is the way I read it at first also and which I think is what you question. If nothing else, would one of you be specific as to what set of furnaces the "50%" applies to? Thanks!
*
Joseph FuscoView Image© 1999"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle
*Bozo & The Clown, sounds like a TV show.
Joseph FuscoView Image© 1999"It is better to be feared. . . Then loved!" Machiavelli
*.....gees FredL .. more B**S**.....no wonder you go back and delete your previous posts....it's so you can come forward and wiggle out from underis that why your post #3 preceded Mr. Webb's post #11 where you stated......"" FredL - 09:31pm Feb 18, 2000 EST (3.) Reply | Add to Your New Messages | FredL's Homepage Dear Michael, I love this topic but I hate your doctor. Fire him. Babies need habitable indoor space instead of lectures about toughing it out. Every house (desert climates excluded) that needs a humidifier is broken. That’s the real story. When the indoor air is too dry, it means that the house is being flooded with outdoor air. The ventilation rate is too high. Heated houses ventilate themselves naturally by blowing warm, moist air into the attic. So sealing the top of the house will raise the humidity dramatically. I’ve accidentally taken a dry house to 70% RH while working to solve an ice dam problem. We often associate forced air heating with dry houses. The real link is to bad ductwork. A couple of things can happen. The return ductwork is often very leaky or even directly connected to the outdoors. Sucking in 30 degree 50%RH outdoor air and heating it = desert. Also I’m always suspicious of attic run supply runs. Leaks here, and there are plenty, will blow warm air out of the room. This leaves a vacuum inside and forces high rates of outdoor air infiltration (drafts). And then there can be a problem of blocked registers. Andrew had a find example of this where closed bedroom doors disrupted the flow of air from supply to return registers. This creates different pressures in various rooms with the net effect producing excessive ventilation, temperature variation, and the dryness. Fixing these problems will return the house to normal, comfortable humidity levels of 40-50%RH. There is one other concern about dry houses that I want you to be especially sensative to. When a house, and particularly the furnace room becomes depressurized by passive or mechanical forces, the flue is prone to backdrafting. If you have a gas fired furnace, there is a 50% chance that your baby is being poisoned right now with combustion gases. Not one doctor in a thousand will diagnose this, so you’ve got to do it yourself. Check for soot and crud around the burners and flue. Any carbon is bad news. Then set your interior doors to normal sleeping mode. Smoke the draft hood as the burners light and watch the gases spill out of the furnace. If you don’t see strong flue suction within a few seconds, you’ve got blockage or huge attic bypasses. Continue blowing smoke as the air handler starts. Many units will instantly start to spill as the gaps in the return ductwork compete with the flue for exhaust. Once the gases enter the returns, they’re delivered quickly right to the bedrooms. It’s a nightmare, but very real for thousands of homes. CO detectors are not sensative enough to pick up this problem because so many of the early alarms went off, that they had to dumb them down. Air seal the attic, assure balance flow through the ducts, and grow healthy babies. Happy 00’, Fred """where's the part where you're only talking about Mr. Webb's house ??
*...hey Steve...service brat myself...so I know wat you mean about leaky houses..and my grandfather's house in Michigan was a leaker , too...but yours isn't ..you said so yourself...so why do you have such a condensation problem on your windows ??When you mitigate the interior humidity, what are you doing ?? same thing we all are ? vapor barrier in the cellar? bath exhaust to take the shower moisture? what kind of windows do you have? any surface that is below the dew point will be awash with condensation...but if the Relative Humidity is below 25, then it's not a question of too much humidity, rather it's bad windows....if the humidifier is on the lowest setting then you are below 25%RH...and your windows are still dripping....Any other surfaces with condensation on them ??Do you have wood floors ?? are they shrinking???It's all well and good to seal off the top of the conditioned space....we all do that ...but then what???Do you have a strategy ?
*I don't have any experience of my own to offer here but I did have some time to do some Web browsing related to Indoor Air Quality (IAQ) and humidity this afternoon - I don't draw any conclusions from this but here's some of what I found interesting:American Lung Association's "Health House" http://www.healthhouse.org - They advocate airtight construction with mechanical ventilation/HEPA filters and dehumidification to keep the RH between 40-60%. Not much backup on why they make these recommendations, but I think it's a credible organization. I wonder if the dehumidification to 40-60% is based on cooling season.The Residential Energy Efficiency Database (REED) http://www.its-canada.com/reed/iaq/humid.htm - Recommends humidity levels between 35-45% and claims that the average household releases 10-15 kg (22-33 lb) of water per day. They also suggest that adding a humidifier is a last resort after eliminating uncontrolled air leakage. (This site has a number of other interesting pages)For reference I calculated the following based on a 2000 SF house with average indoor temp of 70F and 0.3 ACH (80 CFM):Assuming that the RH of incoming outdoor air is 10% after being heated to 70F - the amount of water required to raise it (and maintain it) to 35% RH is about 1.33 lb/hr or 32 lb/day. It would require about 66 lb/day to keep it at 60% RHAlso, check out the Indoor humidity model spreadsheet offered at this site http://www.energytools.com/freesoft.htm (note: I found this after I did my calcs above, but it correlates fairly well)I'm sure there's a lot of other information out there; especially from major organizations like ASHRAE - but they don't seem to publish much online.John H
*...Thanks , John, those are the same figures I've used over the years...and ASHRAE.. which is where I got 'em..66lb is about 8 gallons, so , if you are controlling the moisture comming into the comfort envelope..then you have to articially ADD 8 gallons to the air...which is the function of a humidifier......
*I just click the "List All Messages By Title" and don't click those messages by Fusco or Martel.With so many posts having having nothing to do with the original query, it is sometimes hard to focus. I could understand how Bob was confused but - like Bob - knew better and knew there must be a communication breakdown.
*Mike,OK, but before you start pumping 8 gallons in with the humidifier, shouldn't you also calculate how many gallons a person adds: Breathing, bathing, laundry, dishes,....? I don't know the numbers, and maybe you would i stillneed the humidifier. But I'm betting you don't need the full 8 gallons.Rich Beckman
*
Bob,
thanks for your input. The more I research the more it seems that drums are to be avoided. Also thanks for sticking to the thread topic!
Mike.
*
HELP!!!
Can we somehow cut through all the self-serving arguments and stick to trying to help someone make up their own mind? Some of you are still trying to convince each other of their errors and general character deficiency. Haven't you figured out yet that this has moved beyond entertainment and into making you look like childish fools?
============================================================
MIKE WEBB: In your original post you don't say where you live so I don't know how humid your outside air is. If you live in a fairly dry climate a properly maintained humidifier can be really helpful. After all, if the outside air is dry to start with and you further dry it during the heating process somehow you must restore healthy mosture levels. This can be done by cooking, bathing, etc. But sometimes a humidifier is needed too.
I have installed and used humidifiers and have found no problems except the additional maintenance to keep them clean and functional. Even when they get pretty bad the ducts if properly sealed just carry the air on through and no problems result.
Now if you live in the South Georgia swamps and are having an interior humidity problem....
*Bill:Ah, that helps, but I'm still uncomfortable with FredL's assertion. Even if the sentence is read as "if you, _Michael,_ have a gas fired furnace, there is a 50% chance that your baby is being poisoned right now with combustion gases"At that point in the thread, we knew that Michael had a dry house, his baby had a sinus condition, and some furniture had warped. [Post at 05:59pm Feb 18, 2000 EST, response (2.) ]Fred L then responded, inter alia:<>I question whether one can jump from Michael's post to FredL's conclusion. Certainly the house is dry because we're seeing too many air replacements, but I don't see how he can conclude the furnace room is being depressurized from that. It is certainly a concern and possibility, but 50%?As an aside, why did it take so damn long for FredL to clarify this "confusion" when I challanged him on it? If it was so darn clear from the context, I would have thought he could have easily cleared it up when first asked.FredL<> You're the one who keeps harping on CO measurement; the BPI protocol also calls for flue draft measurements over time. Although that might not be a comprhensive weatherization type analysis, I believe it should indicate whether despressurization issues are present. <> To whom are you referring?Bob Walker
*...right on Rich... the 8 gallons is from all sources..so maybe the humidifier is going to provide about 5 of them and normal activity the other 3...in any case the humidiifier is runnins off a humidistat, which the Owner monitors and controls (nothing is foolproof , is it?)If the humidifier can't provide this makeup, then the house has other problems which FredL has enumerated....a modern , well designed , energy conserving house, with a good comfort control system should provide the best enviornment for its occupants....all these systems can be overwhelmed by poor workmanship, bad components, or bad maintenance...
*......FredL... when you get rested up... maybe you'd like to accept this olive branch to nail to the top of your next customer's house...believe me...olive is better and more healthy than hemlock...still looking for my certificate of attendance ...Mike
*Bob - I can't explain his answers and I could read it like you did. You seem like a reasonable fellow and I know red is - all I could do was point out what I thought might be a miscommunication. It took an entire retreading of the whole thread to figure it out. At least most of red's post were about the issue and not about other posters. I hope we all learn.
*Bill,You old Chicagoan suffering the recent demise of professional sports in your area, I'm happy to see you post here once again instead of spending all of your time with the old house worshippers. I think the most succinct opinion voiced thus far was andrewd's #5 on 2/19. All else (mine included) has been superfluous.
*Steve - I'm a White Sox fan - so it isn't recent.
*Succinct? Kudos! Thanks. :)
*Lugano,
View Image © 1999-2000"It is better to be feared. . . Than loved!" Machiavelli
*Lugano,
View Image © 1999-2000"It is better to be feared. . . Than loved!" Machiavelli
*Hi Joe. Reluctant as I've been to intervene in Breaktime, I now feel compelled to do so. It appears that you've copied and re-posted one of Fred L's deleted posts in this thread. Breaktime is set up so that the original poster can delete his own words. Re-posting another's words is an end run around our intent. You've in effect made it impossible for Fred to delete his own post. I don't have the time or the inclination to police everything that passes between you and Fred, but this is a step too far. I would have preferred to have you remove your own post, and in fact e-mailed you to that effect earlier today. However, my e-mail to you came back as undeliverable. I regret that I was unable to handle this matter more discreetly.Regards to all,Andy Engel
*Thanks Andy. Wish it hadn't taken you so long to finally step in. I'll wager that I'm not the only reader that wishes you were more active in policing the board. The trash posts of a few sort of spoils it for many.
*Mr Engel,
View Image © 1999-2000"Whenever, therefore, people are deceived and form opinions wide of the truth, it is clear that the error has slid into their minds through the medium of certain resemblance's to that truth." Socrates
*Andy,When someone else did the exact same thing to Joe, you ignored it. But when Joe does it, you scream "foul". go herePay extra close attention (in the link) to post #11.1, and post #11.1.1.1 as posted by Andy Engel, SYSOP. You actually speak volumes with your post here, and then you turn around and do this to Joe Fusco. Something smells fishy. The post by JJ says volumes in itself. It is how I feel about the censorship thing, and how a lot of the posters here feel too (by their own admission over several posts, over several months)This would definitely seem to be censorship of Joe Fusco. If it were not censorship of Joe, you would apply the same rules even handedly across the board. I have seen many times when someone reposts a thread, and you have done nothing about it. What's up with that?James DuHamel
*James, I believe that there is a huge difference between the two threads. In this one, Joe copied and reposted a thread that the original poster had deleted. People can delete their own posts on this board, and Joe's action circumvented the intent of your host.The thread to which you refer was reposted from the archives. To the best of my knowledge, the original had never been deleted. If you know differently than this, please tell me.Regards,Andy Engel
*Andy,As a prior participant in this thread, I think it has gotten a bit virulent and perhaps could use some intervention.OTOH, I'm not sure that Joe's reposting of one FredL's posts was inappropriate in this case. FredL has made some pretty questionable claims and arguments, and he has deleted a large number of those posts. In such a case, one has to question what his intent was and whether it was inappropriate _in that context_ to repost. (OTOH Joe hasn't been the epitome of a "delicate sensibility" himself )Certainly, one should have the right to reconsider whether one's message should remain on the board (although I personally wish on-line folks would do that _before_ they post), but when that "right" is used to delete many posts, it becomes questionable, IMHO. I believe people who post messages should be held accountable for their words and opinions. It seems to me that deleting posts wholesale is an attempt to avoid that accountability.Bob Walker
*Andy, other people's posts are reprinted in these threads all the time. Once they're posted aren't they in the public domain. If I want to go back and delete a post I can but if it's been used to make a point by someone in another thread, oh well, I have no control over that. Many people quote others all the time Does this now mean that if I've been quoted and I go back and delete my posts All posts that make use of my quoted words will be deleted. don't think so,this does seem like censorship to me. Vince
*Vince,
View Image © 1999-2000"Whenever, therefore, people are deceived and form opinions wide of the truth, it is clear that the error has slid into their minds through the medium of certain resemblance's to that truth." Socrates
*To rephrase what I said earlier, in the hope that my meaning will be absolutely clear, individuals are allowed to delete their own posts. When anyone on Breaktime reposts another's deleted post, they are circumventing the intent of their host. You're right that I won't go back through all of the discussions looking for infractions; life's too short. But if I encounter other examples in the future, be sure that I'll delete them as well. Have a good weekend. Andy Engel
*Andy,
View Image © 1999-2000"Whenever, therefore, people are deceived and form opinions wide of the truth, it is clear that the error has slid into their minds through the medium of certain resemblance's to that truth." Socrates
*AndyDumb move!Talk about double bloody standards.Fred's deleting of all of his posts is just silly, childish petulance - willful destrutiveness like an angry teenager trashing his room ("I'll show them").Your protecting hisi rightto do so is ludicrous in this context, as it flies in the face of the "spirit" of the delete option! Posts that he had contributed to are now so full of holes and out of synch that they are mostly worthless! Obviously this is his intent.. .and you are playing right into it! Being the pompous abrasive personality that he is, he manages to highjack many threads with his verbose opinionating.. . but it does make for wide ranging discussion as others with more specific knowledge and experience are drawn in to question the validity of his "statements". Much can be learned from these exchanges as a whole.What do you see as the purpose of collecting and saving an archive??If you had real concern for the b integrityof this board you would leave the reposts alone! Fred doesn't need your protection or encouragement. What he could use are your prayers and the referral to a good shrink with a lot of time to spare!disappointed in you-pm
*Andy,I don't suppose this board is democratic, but if it was, my vote would be let a quotation of someone's post(in part or in whole) stand. I agree with the right to delete your own post, but if someone saved it there should be no barrier against quoting.Is your decision based on your business relationship with FredL? Sometimes perception is reality.John
*Andy:>Host? Sorry, that's not the least bit clear.If you meant the person who deleted the post, so? They did post it and invited the world to read it. If they've had a change of heart and want to amend its meaning or effect, let them do so honestly and forthrightly. If they can slip it out of view before anyone notices, more power to them, but if not, what ye sow is what ye shall reap, so to speak.Frankly, I'm alarmed at the tone of your message.Bob Walker
*What's not clear about Taunton being the host here and providing, at no cost, this service? It's there "house" and we should abide by their rules. You are of course free to establish Bob's Bulletin Board - and make your own rules.
*Mr. Bill
View Image © 1999-2000"The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." Plato
*Andy,I think you're trying to enforce civility, which is something that is lacking in our society as a whole. Although admirable, you will find your position untenable.I would not quote from a message the author had deleted, but it should be my right to do so. What is said, cannot be unsaid. (I've learned that one the hard way).OTOH, Your game, your rules! ;-)Good Luck,Jerry
*Andy,It's obvious that you feel like these two instances are much different. Unfortunately, you are probably the only one that does. You censored a poster to Breaktime. You said you would never do that, and you did. Your people promised us that you would stay out of these types of situations, and then you do this. What's next? You gonna erase every post that has the word ass in it? How about some other words? How about Democrats? Republicans? Canadians? Texans? Who's next, and what will make you censor them? Once you open the door to censorship, it will remain open. You will not be able to go back and just "undo" it. Think hard about this before you make any more censorship decisions. I see the situation a lot different than you do. 100 pennies, 4 quarters, 10 dimes, two 50 cent pieces, or one paper dollar - all equal $1.00 You can try to decipher it, give it new meaning, explain it any way you want, but the fact of the matter is that each one still makes up a dollar any way you slice it. So these two instances you speak of may look different, but they both add up to the same thing (which would make them the same thing in my humble opinion)James DuHamel
*Bill,I should have been clearer: earlier (I believe) Andy had referred to the intent of the person posting a message and their "right" and "intention" to delete. When he then referred to the intention of the "host" it was unclear to me whether he was referring to the person posting the message or the entity hosting the board, i.e. FHB/Taunton.I've given more thought to this question. "Intent" is a very slippery word. Determining someone else's intention in doing something is difficult.I post message. Later I delete it. What was my intention? You can only form your own opinion as to what my intention was by looking at the whole context. We can only "guess" what another's person intent was from their actions anc the context.Let's say I post a message libeling "John Doe" (I intend that to be a fictional character, not anyone who has posted on the board or anyone else, for that matter.) Let's say I claim that "John Doe" has killed someone by his actions on the jobsite. Then, sometime later, I delete the post. What is my intention in deleting the post? Is it to avoid responsibility for my libelous action? Should I have a "right" to do that? Say a debate arises in a thread about, oh, let's see, use of humidifiers. I post a number of messages making various arguments with which other's disagree. What was my intention in making those posts? This one's "easy:" it was to tell the world what my views and opinions on the subject are. Later, I delete those posts without explanation. What was my intention in deleting those posts?Do I have a "right" to delete those posts? Yes. Can I "erase" them? I'd say no. I have published them and I am responsible for them. If someone else wants to resurrect them as part of the thread to make their own argument or to maintain the continuity of the thread, I believe they have a right to do so.I am concerned with the tone of Andy's post. I read it as "I'm in charge here, I'll decide what's right and what's wrong and no discussion will be tolerated." Perhap's that's not what Andy intended, but that's the way I read it.I agree entirely that it's their house and they can make the rules. I also we should abide by them or go elsewhere. I will go elsewhere if I find the rules unreasonable. I like the board and find it very useful, and would prefer to try to convince the host to change the rules which I consider unreasonable before voting with my feet.Bob
*Bob - Thanks for your reply. How nice that we didn't have to resort to name calling.We agree on who is the host and all you said in your last paragraph.But - and I'm not sure here - I question the arguements about copying and reusing other peoples posts. If you called me on the telephone and I recorded it and later broadcast it, I think I may have broken a law. (Need I mention Linda Tripp and here recording of telephone calls.) And I kind of doubt that anything someone posts here would ever hold up in court as a basis for libel. (If it does, please tell me - I could become rich!)One intention of the poster who deletes a post is clear - he doesn't want anyone to any longer be able to read his post. Is it okay to deny that individual that right? I'll respect that persons right because I believe it's the civil and social thing to do. I wish that there was an alternative place to discuss these issues where civil discourse was the rule and discussion would focus on the issues of building. A Camelot version of Breaktime.
*Bill,How can a private phone conversation possibly be compared to a post on a discussion board? Apples and oranges!John
*Bill, do you honestly think a "private" phone call is equal to posting somthing on a discussion board on the internet? Once posted it's available to anyone with a computer and a modem, in the entire world!Chuck
*Chuck and JRS - gotta love this board and stayin honest.No, posts here and telephone conversations are not the same. But they are both forms of telecommunication and they are not covered by all the same regulations as broadcast. It will be interesting to see if the courts in US do eventually treat bulletin boards the same way as print media. Then the chat rooms - not much different in some ways from the bulletin boards but then.....Regardless, I'll concede my analogy was weak.I wish you had addressed the other issues.Bill
*Bill, I have addressed the other issues:1) I believe in the right of a poster to delete his post.2) I believe in the right of someone(anyone) to quote a post in part or in it's entirety even after it is deleted. If one is worried about being misquoted, then LET THE POST STAND! If one misspoke or erred in their statement, then CORRECT AND/OR APOLOGIZE! If one is worried about harming someone, or litigation, then DON'T POST!3) I think Andy erred in exercising his ability to censure. Because he(his magazine) has a business relationship with FredL there is the appearance of favoritism in this matter.4) FredL's wholesale deletion of his posts flies in the face of the spirit of this board. There is no question that that activity is more disruptive than flame wars. It also speaks volumes about the credibility of FredL.Any other issues you would like me to address? I would be happy to reply.John
*...Fred.... I think you're mistaken......that is merely YOUR intepretation of the ruleswhen you say..."To those who say they own my words because I wrote them here, I say HANDS OFF. Have a ball with my ideas, but my words are mine. This is not a public domain. It’s fun to be casual about that because we’d like to spend more time reading posts instead of reading fine print. My messages were posted under the presumption that I could control them. """au contraire: this IS a Public Domain, and you can't put your words out into the ether and still maintain control over them... so don't carry this to the height of absurdity...if Andy thinks the rules were violated because your POST was reposted, that's his perogative as SYSOP, but he never said , and the board rules don't state, that we can't copy & paste to our hearts content.. sorry pal, but if you want control over your words , you have to control them at the source....b IMHO....Kermit
*Fred, I'm not here to trade insults or disagree with you.This is a larger issue then any petty name calling. I wouldn't want to see you, your family or your empolyees put in any jeopardy because of anything said here.But if you quote me in one of your posts,which you have done, and then I delete my posts and you don't delete your's are you saying that my words are still mine and you will delete because I did.If you don't, does it mean that you mean to harm me in some way.Or should the use of someone elses words not be allowed in any posts but their own?I'm trying to understand and like you said come here for fun.I mean you no harm in any way,I don't even know you.I'm trying to understand what words of your own could be able to hurt you. Vince
*JRS - Thanks for taking time to respond.We will have to just agree to disagree.I'm a strong believer that a person has the same right to control their own intellectual property just as they ought to be able to control their own personal property. I think Andy was protecting that right. I don't think its disimilar to how a magazine can quote lines of a book in a review, they can't reprint the book. If I lend you a hammer and then take it back, are you thereafter entitled to use it for life? For my livelihood, intellectual property is my tool of the trade.How one determines what the "spirit of this board" is escapes me, but I'm fairly certain I never agreed to your interpretaion of abandoning all rights and being subject to namecalling and verbal abuse by someone who doesn't agree with me. That's counterproductive and uncivil.The flaming is at the heart of this - so it is the most disruptive. Without the flaming, I'm certain Fred wouldn't delete his posts. Also, more people would post. I miss the frequent and informative posts from Gene Leger and Bill Rose - true pioneers in this business - but I'm certain discouraged from posting by the bombastic flaming of a few. Is that the spirit your seeking - quelch the free exchange of ideas for the loud mouths that will validate the way you are doing things now?But our biggest disagreement must be over the logic - or lack there of - in how whether or not Fred's post remains affects the truth or falseness of the statement. Because it's removed does not make it dishonest or untrue.No - there's no other issues here that I would like you to address unless its how you can support someone who posts profanity but condemn someone who is the target of the profanity for withdrawing.Sincerely, Bill Conner
*Bill,Once you post on this board, it is no longer your "intellectual property". That is Taunton's rule for participation. Andy was not protecting that right, because that right does not exist on this board.(Or any other that I am aware of.) Our messages here can hardly be compared to a book, where the author clearly owns his intellectual property.As to the flaming. I am not an apologist for Joe's flaming. Why are you an apologist for FredL's flaming? I've sparred with both, and witnessed both in action, and believe me, Joe has no monopoly on verbal abuse and name calling. How you can deny this aspect of FredL's on line personality?Your comment that I am for quelching the"free exchange of ideas for the loud mouths that will validate the way you are doing things now" is so far off base, I hardly feel it necessary to rebut. You don't know me well enough to make such a statement. I absolutely stand for the free exchange of ideas. That is the point of my comments.You say I suggest that deleting posts indicates the post is dishonest or untrue. Of course I don't believe that. Such a statement is absurd. What I do believe is that, by deleting posts on such a grand scale, undermines FredL's credibility. Period. Explain to me why this is not true. You act as though FredL's deletions are only in response to Joe's flames. This shows me that you are either hiding your head in the sand or just not well informed. They are everywhere, and do not directly correlate to Joe's posts.Best regards, John
*Dear Fred, I have no idea if the posts on this board are public domain legally speaking, I just assume that practically speaking they are. This is just my personal view. Once I click "post my message" and give millions of people access to it's contents I figure it's out of my control. Not much different than hooking it to helium ballon and letting it go. I just dont see any feasible way of taking it back. I've also printed out a few posts for future reference. Is that wrong? If the original poster later decided to delete that post should I destroy my copy as if it never existed? I certainly had no evil intent when I printed them out, actually never gave it a thought that the words belonged solely to the poster. It seemed no different to me than clipping an interesting article out of the newspaper. I replyed to Bill's post because I thought his analogy of a secretly recorded phone conversation was quite a stretch, he later agreed. As to what someone does with my words after I post, I have no control over that either. I think Taunton printed one of my posts awhile back, they certainly didnt okay it with me and I wouldnt expect them to. If anyone has any use for the trivial stuff I post knock yer self out. As to you deleting all your posts, thats your business, I admit I'm curious and dont understand why anyone would post something knowing they were going to delete it. But like I said, your business. I hope you dont take this as hostile or combative, thats not my intent. Just figured I owed you a response since you included my name in the header on your post. That's it, I'm all done. Chuck
*Dear Fred,Are you baiting me now? ;-) Seriously, I hope I made it clear in my (loosly worded) apology to you (in the combustion venting thread) that I honestly beleived I had fairly quoted your words. I took care in choosing the words so as to retain their original meaning as I perceived it. I suppose my perception may be part of the problem here. Hopefully, in the future, you will prove me wrong in using your words as I did, and I will understand your horror.Sincerely,JerryTo all,Bill, Chuck, FredL, Vince and others have touched on the real problem here a Breaktime. It's not whether Andy excercises his editorial rights or Fred his right to delete and control his words or Joe his right to repost the words of others. It's about treating each other with mutual respect and civility. It's about answering to a moral and ethical responsibility that's above what's legally right. Is it OK to deceptively advertise because of loophole in the law? Is it OK to screw a client because of a flawed contract? Because you have a right, doesn't make it right. I think most of the combatants here deal honestly in their day to day lives but somehow feel less responsible when dealing with a faceless person they don't know. Unfortunately, I can only offer the problem (as I see it), not the solution.After two years of mostly lurking on Breaktime, this issue has driven me from the woodwork. It is slowly gnawing away at our society and will be the demise of Breaktime.I'll Be Quiet Now,Jerry
*Bill,I thought about starting some name calling in this sub-thread, but all the juicy ones were taken and somehow "you're a civil discourser" doesn't seem to have the manly, sneering tone required hereI don't think any hard and fast rules can be easily adopted on the re-post issue. Elsewhere, FredL has compared the board to a chat room, and expressed his belief that messages posted here should have the impermenace of a chat room post. Personally, I don't buy the analogy. A Board and chat room are entirely different. The very fact that threads from the boards are officially archived highlights the difference.I think there's a difference between a poster deleting the occasional message for whatever reason, and wholesale deletions.I believe wholesale deletions should be discouraged for 2 reasons. First, the message threads can be a valuable resource for "lurkers" (i.e., people reading the thread and not participating) and future readers. Wholesale deletions break up the continuity of a thread and dilute, if not eliminate, its value.Second, I believe it is cowardly to post a number of attack messages as FredL seems to do when anyone disagrees with his pronouncements, and then delete them. I've lost a lot of respect for FredL because of that.I suspect there are some technical copyright issues here (e.g., the difference between quoting/copying major sections of a copyrighted wrk versus quoting smaller sections under the "fair use" doctrine) but I don't know much about it.<> I think I've read that some libel suits have been brought arising from messages posted on the internet.I don't buy the telephone analogy, a message posted for anyone in the world to read is entirely different from a telephone conversation privately held between 2 people. (Also, I _think_ the laws vary from state to state on recording phone conversations.)I believe you and I completely agree on using civilty as a measure for the appropriateness of actions. It gets a bit complicated in applying the standard, though.I also agree with your earlier message to Andy; it was about time some policing was done on the board. (I'm not a member of the "no censorship cabal sounding off in another thread.)I've been on-line since '92, and have seen a lot of flame wars in my time. While I think the nature of the folks who hang out here should aloow for a bit of rough and tunble, I also think the childish bickering which regularly erupts should be dealt with. Of course, that's far easier said than done.Bob Walker
*FredL<>Careful, that first sentence could be taken 2 ways Personally, I think completed threads can have some lasting value, so long as readers recognize that particular situations are being discussed and don't think that a conclusion in one case will apply to all.Often, in answering questions, people will voice "general rules" and then describe how they apply to the particular situation. I believe this can be very valuable down the road.Although I don't agree with many of the positions you've taken, I do believe they have a value in that people should recognize that there can be many ways of looking at a problem. Also, of course, I do agree with some of what you say and positions and explanations you've given.Bob Walker
*Hey breaktime buddies....the lobsters are ready....come and get it!!!near the stream, laughing at the siliness of all the yak in this thread!!!aj
*Sysop....idea 1....archive threads like this after a week in a flaming folder so as to cool things down quicker around here....idea 2....Fred and Joe voluntarily meet somewhere, put each other in a head lock and give each other noogies till they both tire and cry uncle...idea 3...Lets take the flaming to Fusco's board since Fusco is involved as a main particapant so often.Fusco...We love you man...with all my love, near the stream,aj
*Beer's on me over at the tavern....near the stream,aj
*Andy,I hope you are not new to running a board, but if you are...There must be a sysop manual that explains flaming, and in general bully behavior...(The schools in NYS now just ship the bullies off to separate schools, not that things are better their but it sure makes the regular classes easier to manage!!!)There's the real answer right there...Start one a board or folder that's exclusively Fusco's...b Fusco's Folder... Ask This Top Dog Your Top Questions...I'm sure Fred would agree to not post in or about any of it's content...Then if more wars break out with Fred then you'll have to give Fred his folder to(o).b Fred Lugano... One Man's Opinion on all your Weatherization Questions...This could really work!!!....Are you taking applications for b sysop zsar??? (just kidding Fusco!!...really Joe, we all love you!)Love, peace and groovieness, near the stream (and if all that fails I'm buyin the beer!)aj (applicant for new sysop zsar position)
*Another idea...those who want a flame post to be "put out" b fillibuster it!...Kinda like what I have done this morning...just keep on typing out as Fusco says..all kinds of yak that just bores the h*ll out of all to the point that no one bothers to post due to zero interest in rebutting someone like me who tries to be so wrecklessly sideways of the issues!!!More lobsters ready for the pot...lets steam-um and eat up!near the stream pullin lobsters....aj
*I just watched a child psychologist explain to a group of parents why one does not explain to the kids the why of their decisions...the answer is always because I'm the parent and I said so...then just walk away....When the kid wants something from the parent sometime inthe future, you'll see that they suddenly like you again...Sysop...this is Taunton's board...Your rules are set...you don't have to explain your reasoning to resonable people...We're all kids for our whole lifetime...some kids are bullies, and some are angels...We love em all but good parenting means sticking to the rules!near the stream,aj
*OK - I'll play by your rules for a minute. I'll copy and post articles from FHB. Please explain the difference. And if you raise the issue of copyright, then I'll simply append that symbol and notice to posts as I do some of my other written work.***Handrails and CodeBuilding a staircase can be expensive and time-consuming. so when I tell my clients that they'll need a wall rail for the stairs to pass code, they often balk. Sometimes they ask me to install a cheap rail that they can remove after the building inspector has signed off. My response is that a permanent railing, built and installed properly, enhances the look of the staircase, and also that the railing might be all that stands between them and serious injury.A graspable handrail is reauired for all stairs with four or more risers (UBC) or three or more risers (CABO).The handrail must be 34 in. to 38 in. above the slope of the stairs (UBC), or 30 in. to 38 in. (CABO). Graspable portion of the handrail must be 1-1/4 in. to 2 in. wide, or an equivalent cross section that can be gripped. Handrail must not project more than 3-1/2 in. from the wall and must be at least 1-1/2 in. from the wall. Handrail ends must return to the wall. ***According to you, this is in the public domain and anyone can use it for anything they want.Regarding your last issue, I believe Fred when he says he is deleting his posts because of Fusco's flames; you seem to be saying that Fred is not telling the truth. Isn't this the same as insisting that Fred is lying? And I know Fuscos flames are quelching other posters. Perhaps you have a different definition for "credilbility". To me it relates directly to being truthful. I find nothing dishonest in his posts.Sorry - we're on different sides. I'd change if you could substantiate your assertions - and I admit you may be able to on teh public domain issue - but I don't see it yet.Regards, Bill Conner
*... hey Jack.. u said the weather brok and u wer goin bak to werk...b**l .. you were layin up thinkin all that witty stuff u yust posted , huh?yu still my main man..what do you do when the beavers dam up yur stream?
*I luv beavers!!!!!!....I'm a dam builder from way way back...I once flooded an entire neighbors lot by mistake...My usual curbside damming technology (started as a toddler) was to(o) dam good I guess, especially being that I was probably a teenager when I built "the dam of all dams"...and then there's beavers...once you see one...near the stream,aj
*John, to answer your question, my decision to delete Joe's post was in no way based on our business relationship with Fred. He's quite capable of defending himself.In my earlier posts, when I said host, I meant Taunton. Breaktime is set up so that Fred or you or Joe can delete your own posts. This gives everyone the chance to reconsider, recant or restate their position. I don't know why Fred deletes his posts, nor are his reasons relevant. Honestly, I wish he wouldn't do that. But that's a condition of this board; everyone is allowed to delete their own posts.In the same way, I don't understand Joe's motives in reposting Fred's deleted post. It would have been understandable had Joe reposted and gone on to rebut Fred's opinions, or if Joe had quoted Fred for some reason. Joe didn't do that though, he simply reposted an entire post that Fred had previously deleted, with no comment other than words to the effect that there were more where that came from. Since the new post was Joe's, Fred had no way of deleting his own words; words that he had previously deleted, presumably to recant, reconsider or restate. Joe's move effectively deprived Fred of the control of his own words, control that Taunton allows everyone who posts on this site. That's what I meant when I said that Joe had circumvented the intent of his host, and that's why I deleted the post. Andy Engel
*Andy,
View Image © 1999-2000"Whenever, therefore, people are deceived and form opinions wide of the truth, it is clear that the error has slid into their minds through the medium of certain resemblance's to that truth." Socrates
*Bill,Obviously, copywritten material remains copywritten wherever it is quoted.(BTW- I never used the words "public domain") I am simply refering to responses given on this forum-they belong to Taunton, according to Taunton's rules. They are not the poster's intellectual property anymore-as some have found out (to their embarrassment)when Taunton reprinted their remarks in Fine Homebuilding Mag. without their permission.Just a little checking will show you that FredL does not delete only posts that involve Joe's flames. Just go to the Energy folder and check: Building a sleeper roof********Vapor Barriers..the latest wisdom********Testing Building envelopes for air leaks****** and any other number of topics. You will find a multitude of deletions that don't involve Joe at all. Again, I don't dispute FredL's RIGHT to delete. The incessant deletions strike me as being akin to someone who makes a lot of statements everywhere he goes and to anyone who will listen, and then denies that he said anything. That's what I mean by credibility. If he wants to answer the posts privately, he could just e-mail an answer, and draw no attention to himself whatsoever. But, in my opinion, attention is the one thing he craves.I will ask you directly-you don't believe that FredL is one of the notorious flamers on this board? His style is different than Joe's, but it is cutting, sarcastic, and full of inflamitory rhetoric. If you don't agree, then your exposure to him is truly limited. I would refer you to a number of his posts, but they seem to have disappeared.Sincerly, John
*John-I work a lot with building codes, am on several committees, attend a lot of code hearings, and submit proposals for changes. In submitting changes, I give the code group free use to my words - "non-exclusive royalty-free rights". They can use them without paying me. Others can't - they're my words. I strongly disagree with the statement that because they are posted here that they are no longer the poster's intellectual property for the same reason. If in order to share through posting one has to give up their property, it will discourage the free exchange of the best information. That is why the codes do it - I am familiar with the legal proceeding that established that principle.Your final question has too many negatives in its structure for me to be sure how to answer. I don't know if its a ploy or simply your normal conversational manner. I assume its not a ploy and simply say I believe Fred does flame - and he is very good at it - never having to resort to name calling or profanity and demonstraing a mastery of innuendo and puns. Along with that, its important to point out I beleive that a complete reading shows Fred has only "flamed" in response to attacks from others. Also, it started when Fusco showed up in the "pressure plans" thread and made such an easy target of himself over that silly barometer business. Its too bad the board crashed and there isn't a complete record of that, or at least one I know of. It was about 100 posts long, with an excellent conclusion by JT - another poster who I believe doesn't post here because of the wrangling and flaming - a true loss for all of us. Finally, Fred's posts primarily address the subject - not so of most of the flamers. If you read through the humidifier thread, there was barely a post save 1 or maybe 2 that addressed the question. Nearly all of Fred's posts did.But if you don't like Fred's style, don't read him. And don't respond. You have no right to his intellectual property. You read his answers and complain that they aren't the ones you wanted to hear. Just don't read his posts. I don't read Joe's - its very easy. And you certainly may choose to not read mine either - you probably won't miss much. Its just too bad that the type of flaming that Joe typifies discourages others from posting here - a loss for all.Sincerely, Bill
*et al,
View Image © 1999-2000"Whenever, therefore, people are deceived and form opinions wide of the truth, it is clear that the error has slid into their minds through the medium of certain resemblance to that truth." Socrates
*So, Michael, I hope this answers your questions re humidifiers? ;-)
*Andy,Thanks for the more complete explanation.Bob Walker
*Bill,<>That's not my impression. My impression is that FredL goes on the offensive when the views he presents are questioned by others. I believe that FredL does not recognize that in many of these matters, reasonable people can disagree, and he seems to take disagreement with his views as attacks.It's too bad, because much of what he says has value, but I, for one, have trouble distinguishing his wheat from his chaff.Bob Walker
*Bob - How far can we go to the right (of the display)?Your point regarding disagreement and reasonable people is understood and I agree with it. And there have been times when I wished Fred had just ignored a response and trusted the readers to see it for what it was worth. BUT, I wish that the people that disagreed brought some research or critical thought to the discussion. I've not seen much in responses that invalidates his positions - but then I'm generally skeptical of manufacturer's recommendation that result in that manufacture's financial gain and I also distrust the "that's the way I've always done it and it works for me" approach. I can't get away with such anectdotal evidence in my work.And look at the threads - there are many responses that don't even rise the standard of it works for me but simply use Fred's posts as a reason to spew profanity and incivility. Someone posted a thank you to Fred and two other posters jumped in to say it was not warranted.Posters suggest manufacture's conditions of warranty for venting roofs but when Fred simply posts a manufactuers condition about the temperature of the combustion air, its dismissed as totally unecessary. No consistency.I mention in a post that warm air rises and get attacked. The same attacker in a recent post said warm air rises!I am certain that with very few exceptions if any of us met in an airport or bar and chatted about these issues we'd probably become firends and comrades in arms. But there is something about this medium that causes a lack of objectivity. Like the issue about "50% of all furnaces" that was simply misunderstanding. Every instance of that statement that was questioned was in a response that was clearly addressed to the original poster. Yes there was room for confusion, but a careful reading showed Fred was commenting on the specific case. Did Fred purposely construct this trap? I don't think so but of that I can't be sure.So, we can disagree and please call me to task if - after a careful reread and objective mental review - you believe I am off base or incorrect or misunderstood something. I just ask that you tell me in a civil manner - it will be easier for me to hear. And I will try to do the same for you.If I have been anti-social or profane in disagreeing with you or anyone - I apologize. I may have been but I'm certain the record will show it's very rare and not very recent. I enjoy learning about these issues and sharing my experiences so that other's can learn.Sincerely, Bill Conner
*Bill,About your words, you say, "They[the code group] can use them without paying me. Others can't"-so how much has Taunton Paid you for your words here at Breaktime so far? We certainly disagree that FredL only flames in response to attacks from others-and there are many other reasonable people here who agree with me on that one.I certainly have no desire for the rights to FredL's "intellectual property". What gave you the idea that I did?You state "You read his answers and complain that they aren't the ones you wanted to hear." That's an odd statement. I never made such a complaint. I simply disagree with some things that FredL has to say. I have no particular affinity for flaming in general. Some of it is entertaining, and some of it isn't. When someone tells me that my building practices are custom made for destroying houses and killing the occupants, yes, that gets my dander up. You know and I know that's simply not true. BTW-I don't boycott anyone's posts here. Why would I want to? (that's just a rhetorical question)Regards, John
*Dear BillI seem to have lost track of this thread due to a continuing glitsch in my "subscription lists". Mostly others have echoed my sentiments quite eloquently, but I would like to reply to several things you said in your post <> that seem to have slipped by.i ". . . Fred does flame.. . never having to resort to name calling or profanity.. . "This statement is completely erroneous, and I object to it remaining uncontested. In my world, calling someone a liar constitutes name calling, as well as slander. Repeating this slur while purposely making no attempt to site any examples is not only quite slimy, but is also a form of character assassination. I have been the subject of this sort of name calling, by Fred, very recently. While you are obviously enamoured with Fred's supposedi ".. .mastery of innuendo and puns"he remains quite capable of slinging profanity. During a previous i tiltwith Joe, he referred to him several times as a i bullshit contrarianand ani loud mouthed asshole.Sounds like profanity to me.i "Along with that, its important to point out I beleive that a complete reading shows Fred has only "flamed" in response to attacks from others. Also, it started when Fusco showed up in the "pressure plans" thread"Bill, this too is completely erroneous. I have had several disagreements with Fred over the last three years. Without exception, they resulted from actions of i his towards others that I considered to be unnecessarily low blows. Several happened before Joe showed up on the "Pressure Plans"(sic) thread. In fact my introduction to "Internet flaming" was courtesy of Fred. . . solo. .. on Breaktime!!! About three years ago!I do believe you were also in attendance!The first time I ever spoke up was in reaction to a particularly nasty, and completely unwarranted attack Fred made on another poster (name long forgotten). In the early days of this board Fred was a swaggering know-it-all who seemed to think that he was holding court amongst a group of mostly know i nothings.This particular poster made a statement and/or drew a conclusion in reply to a thread (not directed at Fred in any way) that Fred not only ridiculed, but then procedded to run the guy off the board with a lengthy condescending diatribe about how the guy had reduced the level of discourse with his dumb post and how he was playing in the big leagues now, and if he was going to post here (BT) he had better do his homework, or expect his ideas to be held up to ridicule. My rendition is much nicer than the original.I answered Fred's post by simply asking if he thought that i his post had elevated the level of discourse. . .out came the knives. .. out came the vitriol. . .out came Fred!!!In another thread I mentioned that Gary Wheeler once posted a series of unwarranted Fred vitriolin response to Fred, or someone like you, trying to deny that he ever did such things without i duecause.That too pre-dates any flaming by Joe.So too does the personal story that George Carpenter mentioned on another thread recently.I think that it is comendable that you choose to speak out in defense of your friend, but you'll have to stop using his tactic of selective amnesia, it tends to colour the perception of everything you say.regards-pm
*Bill,If this goes much farther, the messages are going to start showing up on the right speaker of my PC I agree with most that you've said, and completely with your attitude of civil discourse and discussion.Personally, I wish more opinions cited the basis on which they were reached, but that's fairly foreign to most of involved in construction, in my experience.Bob
*Humidifiers....Yes...one Breaktimer could humidify at least 2 to 3,000 sq ft!!!!near the 100% humid stream,aj
*
Do all whole house humidifers produce ducts full of bacteria? Are some types worse than others?