*
Above message deleted by David. I meant to post it as a reply to Patrick’s post rather than as a new post.
David
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*
Hi Patrick,
The Taunton Press had nothing to do with FredL's name disappearing
from his posts. If you look again at any of those deleted posts, they
all say something like:
(Deleted item originally posted by
size="6">. on 08:25pm Mar 8, 2000 EST)
FredL has changed his user name from FredL to size="6">.
Anyone can change their user name just by going into their
Preferences. When you change your user name, any post or deletion will
reflect that name change.
David
*This would be funny if it wasn't so sad. Can it be true that the same Fred Lugano who once ran off at me about using a "fake name" is now using "." as his name? Say it ain't so.His actions speak for themselves. As I said the last time though, its unfortunate that his tirades are allowed to sidetrack and ruin the board for others. Please, ".", no flag-waving response about freedom of speech. I know the drill. You do have the constitutional right to do what you do. If I were president of this CLUB, however, your membership would be revoked. Behavior consitutes reasonable grounds, no?
*
......Hah, hah, hah...... this is ridiculous
does my use of ..........constitute plagiarism now?
egads
b .
*To all the FredL(or . ) apologists out there, and you know who you are,What do you have to say about this? I too was ready to jump down Taunton's throat about the missing FredL labels. I was ready to assume it was because of his relationship with Tauntan. I would think that by now they would be pretty embarassed about his actions here on Breaktime. But what has happened is that FredL has shown us just how slippery he is-CREDIBILITY. He lost his, in my eyes, last year in several threads on venting and shingle warranties after he flamed me. When I went back through to search his posts on other threads, I noticed that many were deleted, and I commented on it. His supporters gave me the standard answer that I shouldn't judge the content of his message by the style of his posts. And these are the same people that criticize other flamers on this board. It doesn't matter how nice a guy he may be in real life or how successful his business is, for those of us who only know him by his words here on Breaktime, IMO, his credibility gap here is almost insurmountable. I believe anyone can redeem themself(I know I've tried on more than one occasion). Hopefully in the future he will let his words stand, like most of the rest of us do.John
*"." or the posting person formerly known as FredLHmmmm, I guess that correlation would make "." a copyrighted name. Intellectual property. So ............ would not be plaguerism, it would simply be saying "FredL" over and over and over.LOL :-)
*Wait, this could be way cool. All of us old timers, who've been around for say a year, could switch to glyphs, kinda like "the artist formerly known as prince."From now on, just call me «¿=¿»
*How about from now on, anyone that wants to use the word a**hole substitutes b "."instead. . . kind of an appropriate i in joke!!-pm
*•™ think I'm gonna change mine too.......to ºº™Joe H for now, but soon to be formerly
*.....Andrew... careful , yur gonna start a mad rush fer the rights to evveryting on the QUERTY keyboard.....aye , mateys, well Jim, ya see, we giv 'em the black spot,, hah , hah, hahb .
*Wow guys.....don't all groups need someone to sacrifice to the Gods....I see this in every group I have been near....It's one of many reasons why I am never fully an insider of any group...including here...What a bunch of "men" we are that we have to keep hashing out Fred L....Yes he has a huge ego...and yes "we" must deflate it...When is the job done boys....Us boys...we sure are willing to gang up and stone another to death....Did anyone notice the lack of females taking part in this manly "sport"...My lobsters are gonna turn on ya all soon if we don't start seriously punishing the beer keg more than any one individual....Flames that never end suck....Let's stop feeding this fire soon....the lobsters keep gettin overcooked and noone likes that!!near the stream thinkin we all need a hosin down!ajOption two....Rip me up for awhile...I'll take ya all on boys...Beers on me, then lets rumble!!!
*geeesh....jack.....lighten up....her's paddy given the sysop hell and the sysop cums bac with the real poop.... if yu can't see the humor in that ... well 'scuse me...i'll agree wit ya that it's unfortunate that one guy catches it ... but absurdity is as absurdity does....i still got reservations fer us at Lobstermania cum May & JLC.....
*JackieYa know I luv ya (like a bro), but I don't recall you callin "." off when he was mercilesly ridiculing Gabe right off the board, or trying to do the same to Joe.I'll forego my Canadian i nice guy thing long enough to say this guy deserves everything he gets. ..he's got some serious dues to pay as far as I'm concerned although I remain surprised that others seem to feel that way too... t'wasn't always the way around here...how the mighty have fallen!Easy on the Lob's, don't go burnin them outa spite!!-pm
*Listen up ya bunch a wanna be "."heads...(just kidding!!!)There comes a time with me anyway that a sporting beer...a big night of volleyball....a job well done (and paid for)...and last but not least, a peak into here with less "." hangings are where I would rather be...but...You boys have hung him...dragged him from your bumpers and now are wondering what to do next to what little there is left of "."Just a "."!!!!!OK I'll finish for us all " "That's it... now he's gone...Am I "in" with ya all now?Near the stream drinking the kool aid,ajBartender...way more beer please!
*Jack,It was not my purpose to 'rip' anyone at all. I started to make a post in support of the 'one rule for all' post, but then thought better of it because it would probably sound like I was ragging on FredL. I do not take either side, and I won't. In hindsight, not making that post was a very good move, since it turned out the sitch was not what it seemed at all. Given that, the situation seemed more funny than anything, and it reminded me of 'the artist formerly known as Prince'. I posted what I did as a foible, a joke, something to laugh at. It was in no way intended to be an insult. Nevertheless, it has turned out to seem that way. I can see your point. I take this opportunity to apologize. I am sorry if I have stepped on anyone's toes. I further want to state that although I don't think FredL will win 'prince charming' award this year, I don't think he is a 'bad' person. Nor do I think so of JoeF, or any other person posting here.Regardless of circumstances, I am not one to knowingly or actively take part in lynch mobs. Again, my apologies to anyone who may have misinterpreted my intentions.
*Luka...nice thoughts to share on this religous day of the week for many of us...And it is after twelve here....bartender...near the stream saying thanks for post Luka...my day's nicer now.aj
*....yeh , aj... cum on over to the shed and help me wit those dam republicans....they'r gangin up on Al....and the Canadians keep gettin their nose outta joint..sigh....whats a guy to do?
*Politics...I can get in big trouble!!!!...Just a minute....I'm comin Mike!!Got a Lewinsky,near the stream...aj
*You all can change your names to any punctuation you like. I'll still know a ":" when I see one.
*Better watch it Ryan, you keep hanging that out there and you might get ":" cancer.Hmmm, I wonder if there's a proctologist around here with a rubber glove handy ??? Run, Ryan, run. See Ryan run. See the doctor run. See the doctor slip. See Ryan laugh. Isn't the doctor funny ?
*Jack,Maybe this isn't so much a lynching as it is a little poetic justice. Don't you remember that "What can be done about Gabe Martel" thread?That was pretty ballsy on FredL's part, I must say. I don't think one person can control what goes on here. Or five. Does this mean Breaktime's down to three flamers? (I never did figure out exactly who the fifth one was)I do respect the way you try to moderate the flames at times, but I gotta tell ya, sometimes you do have a way of sprinkling gas on the fire!John
*Well, you know firemen....We do like fire!!!near the stream, thinking it's a good day for the season's first barby,aj
*
I will try to make this short and sweet.
1) I am not an advocate for censorship in any form. That is just the way
I was raised. I think that 'censorship' is contradictive to the
American way, Bill of Rights and what we here in the US of A have come
to cherish.
2) One or more of my posts here at Breaktime have been used in Taunton's
FineHomebuilding magazine without my consent. Not that I mind, they
took them from the public domain. I was personally embarrassed beyond
reproach when a builder I did business with (who does not have access to
the internet) tossed his copy of the printed mag in my face.
I had no idea that the
comments I made on this friendly internet site amongst friends/foes
would or could be 'sold, distributed' without at least a warning. That
is the risk you take when you express yourself
in printed form. I no longer do business with that contractor.
I do not think that Andy should exercise his or his publisher's supposed right to censorship of any 'quoted material' when Taunton themselves have taken liberty themselves to 'reprint' certain material without 'permission' for the benefit of profit. Actually, I went to Wal-Mart and tendered the price of the magazine to discover within the cover that my words on this 'free forumn' were within the cover. Certainly, I did not expect this to happen, nor did I expect to have those words used against me for whatever reason in this printed form. But, because I can't have my cake and eat it too, I respect the right of free speech and other's right to quote my ramblings. This I guess is a small price I pay for expressing my thoughts.
Andy, I have nothing against you, Taunton, Joe, Fred or the source of material that you choose to compile information and entertainment between the covers of your magazine.
But double-standards are not conducive to the aura of trust when on the one hand you can cultivate material for your mag and on the other hand you place a website and invite the public to post and then determine what is appropriate for quoting and reprint.
Think about your benefits/responsibilities/opportunity for gain, which you folks at Taunton have taken the the liberty to exercise, before you decide what constitutes ethical and moral behavior in your mind's eye.
I guess it still goes to say "You can't have your cake AND eat it too."??
Respectfully,
Jeff
*Jeff,
View Image © 1999-2000"The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." Plato
*Lugano,
View Image © 1999-2000 "The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." Plato
*Fred, You really just don't get it do you?Dan
*Dan,
View Image © 1999-2000 "The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." Plato
*I'd like to comment on the rules of engagement, perceived or actual.Taunton did post some site usage rules and, as is often the case, slanted them to be in their, the site owners, favor and apparently to be a bit ambiguous, or sloppy, which gives latitude and confusion in interpretation.This latitude manifests itself right in the first paragraph where they state, "This is a free and open forum. Comment to Breaktime will be posted within seconds, b UNEDITED OR SUPERVISED BY US."(emphasis added). They then qualify that, effectively negating that statement, with the exceptions: "...to remove postings containing obscene or otherwise offensive language, or personal attacks." It seems to me that they are now a day late and a dollar short to be just now deciding to edit or supervise.Jump on over to the Policy statement page and you will see that anything you post IS NOT PRIVATE. Furthermore, Taunton can do ANYTHING it wants to your post, as they say, "...to use, reproduce, modify, translate and distribute..." Taunton can also "...review, edit, move or delete any material...", "...B IN ITS SOLE DISCRETION."There is, however, no policy statement here that says if YOU delete YOUR post it is then a non-entity. What you will find it a straightforward sentence at the bottom of the "Post a new message" screen that says, "You cannot rewrite history, but you have 30 minutes to make changes or fixes..." And, I have yet to find policy regarding what is supposed to happen to the information contained in YOUR post if YOU should happen to want to use the delete function.So, going back to the Policy statement: "Postings to the site are not private", should be fair warning to all that once you hit enter, you are S.O.L.Another consideration is since Taunton claims to have the unlimited right to anything you post and to do anything at all with it, does it not also follow that the post now becomes proprietary to Taunton and no one, without prior permission from Taunton, may re-transmit (it's written as that in the policy statement) anything posted by anyone? And, does it not also follow that IF they can claim proprietary rights then once you are posted you no longer have the right to delete something that is theirs?How 'bout them apples for discussion? Convolutely, Ralph
*Fred,What "other" problems with Taunton are you referring to?I have no problem with Taunton. They were 'my words' that they chose to print in their magazine. Make no mistake Fred, they were definitely my words.Just because the words I wrote may have been objectionable and available per coincidence to one of my clients who deemed them offensive or objectionable does not mean that I condemn Taunton for using them without my permission. My objection is with the double-standard issue that Andy finds himself in the midst of. It is pure hypochrisy that they stand in judgement of what JoeF did and at the same time they were doing much the same (I don't believe there was malice intent in my case).For the record, I can't stand Joe Fusco. I dislike him probably as much or more than anyone on this forum. What I value about Joe Fusco is his right to expression, his right to quote others who have spoken their piece and his rebuttal to public comment on issues brought before this public.In the same context, I value your right to burn the books you have written Fred. For whatever reason you deem plausible. But Fred, you produced and distributed too many copies freely to expect sole ownership. As I see it, you now have the privilege to discount and correct any comments that disparage your original intent or are/were taken out of context.All the petty name calling and other horse-shit antics I consider just part of the game. I think I can separate fact from fiction when it comes to discussing personalities and intent.For many, much is lost on conflict, so little of subjective matter is remembered.Hope to see you at Affordable Comfort in Columbus, Fred. I will be there for the sake of curiousity directly implanted by your deleted posts. You have certainly awakened my sensitivities. Now it is my responsibility to confirm or dismiss what I remember of your sermons and attitudes.Respectfully,Jeffie
*Jeff:Well....I must be pretty dense. I don't get it either. Perhaps if I knew specifically what you referring to in your original post above... Maybe issue # and page#???I thought it when with out saying that Taunton had rights to whatever you (we) put out on this discussion site. Not to mention that it does expressly say that in the "content policy" statement. This i is Taunton's house!Also, I kinda surprised me that you don't subscribe to the magazine???Please fill me in.
*I have an inntresting perspective for you concerning the use of the internet and information posted, sent, and published in these forums.As a recruiter I was giiven classes on the internet and how to use it as a marketing tool. One of the lessons heavily discussed was the legal issues concerning writen information.Here are some key points as recognized by the federal commnications commission and taught in or class.1. The FCC does not consider internet Chat boards and E-mail to be under their direct control or jurisdiction. Though this is under constant debate, The reason is the word is WRITTEN. In most states you cannot record a phone conversation without notifying the party being recorded. As to the nature of the Internet it is known that what you write IS RECORDED and retransmitted by others. There for what you write is considered to be the same as what you mail or fax, and only considered to be a different way of delivery.*** My summary here is Fred basically mailed copies of his letter to all who had access prior to his deleting it. As do all of us. Tanton has the write to do what they do and print what we send because they publish a mag. Any of us also have the write to reprint what we recieve as long as we properly do his. That is a topic for copyrite and plagerism laws. Any reprinting of a written word must give credit to the origiona;l author, BASICALLY.2. Laws have been passed concerning hosting sites like these. Though I do not know them they cover things in the areas of pornography and fraud and other crimes. Though I did not read what was delted by Andy, Taunton does have the responsibility to police this site. As an open forum I do not believe that wite goes as far as forbiding someone from using this site.*** I feel that though it is wrong for Andy to have stepped in after not being involved for so long, as the representative of Taunton and thus the host he is not stepping out of the bounds as far as policing the site. I do feel however that in stepping in now he has shown bias but not censorship. For me censorship is only alowing the publication of your views. That is not going on here. I do agree though that the standard is most definiely double at this point.In short, and this is a quote from my insructor, MSG Johnson at Ft. Jackson SC," Once you send it you can't get it back so make sure you send only what you want to be held accountable for."I have addressed the deleting posts issue and though I do not agree with doing so, unless you double post, I cannot change the abilty or choice to do so. I feel strongly about our rights and do not take them lightly. I feel it was wrong for Andy to delete someone elses post. In essence though it is no different from taking a quote from someone, printing up flyers and pinning them on a bulitin board at the library or work. Yes someone may tear the down but what are you to do. They have that freedom as well because once you put them out there they to are no longer yours, but public domain. For me this happens daily. I put up fliers and have them torn down. It pisses me off. So what do I do put more up, not yell and scream.Joe, I have to disagree with you all on this one I really don't think it is as bad as censorship, though I would be pissed if it were me.Fred, I hate o say it but once you put it out here it is out, so maybe be more selective.Andy, I would use more discretion or maybe explain more why you pulled the post. For you my friend consistency should be your watchword. Don't worry though in life we will step on others toes.As far as I am concerned If you want privacy you are not going to get it on a public forum. You can try E-Mail but again don't expect it. Though most do recognize that as more private, I for one do, don't expect it to be.Finally, if you say it I feel you should be accountably and show integrity and honesty when questioned about it. If you don't its your choise, but don't be pissed when someone calls you on it. My Humble Oppinion,Dave
*Sorry you don't get it Matt. I don't know how nor wish to explain what I wrote above in 'other words'.As for me not subscribing to FineHomebuilding, I just choose to pick it up at the newsstand, grocery store or Wal-mart.Strange as it may sound, I receive no less than 15 industry specific periodicals free of charge every month. I think they only offer these trade specific rags to those who are bonafide industry practitioners.As for my habits of spending money on publications within and directly related to my specific industry......over $5,000 per year, oftentimes at an issue price of over $150.00 per volume. So as you can see, the difference between the subscription price of FH and the Wal-Mart price is inconsequential. Besides, I can pick up the latest Martha Stewart, This Old House and Old House Remodeling issues at the same time. As you can clearly tell, Fine Homebuilding is not really the professional, industry oriented periodical it once was.[g]Jeffps: I do enjoy the adv. for the latest/greatest gadgets immensely.
*Andy:I presume that you will be reading this and the topic I posted under the Breaktime Suggestions category.Like it or not folks this is Taunton's board.As for Andy's intervention I think it is too little too late. The vituperative comments that have raged on this board have interfered with my use of the board and with the free interchange of information. On top of that we have a couple folks who use this board in a vain attempt to drum up business. If their comments had higher quality and were given in a professional manner they might succeed. Instead the interchange is more like a bunch of children squabbling.So, Andy keep up the good work and don't let all the discussion force you to become legalistic. Keep hands off unless things get out of hand. Then jump in just like you did.
*I too, am confused. Why would you lose/stop business with a contractor over something he read in the mag.? If it was a conflict in building styles/ideals that simply should have been handeled. I actually use the reprints of my comments as part of my presentation. I have them copyed and keep them in my portfolio so customers can see them. Seema most folks think if they see it in print, it must be right! Or at the very least, this guy may actually know what he's talking about, his name is in a trade mag. I just take it for what it's worth. But I don't know your exact situation. I only type in my opinions and beliefs, so I'll stand behind them to anyone that asks. I think I'm missing a part of the story. Jeff/Buck Const.
*I don't understand the debate. It seems so clear to me that it's Tauton's house and we need to follow thier rules no matter if we like them or not and we follow their interpretation no matter if it's leveled evenhandedly or not.this is not a democracy. We don't get to vote. Our opinion about this is not that relevent.If Tauton decides to ban me tomorrow for no reason other than they don't like guys from NJ, I might get mad but I have no recourse and shouldn't.We're getting this service for free. They have spent alot of money and time putting this together, trying to make it better for us, and we're going to complain?Don't come to my house if you're gonna bitch about my rules!
*Jeff:Oh, OK.Didn't mean to step on your toes about the subscription thing. I guess I just assumed that most all of the "regulars" around here subscribed to the mag as a convenience - as opposed to picking up at the store. Assumed - good word - but a bad thing to do! Also, I guess I was off topic with that portion of my post.
*Well, this is a fine kettle of fish, isn't it? Geez, we (I) used to think the vent/no vent discussion was interesting.It is clear that Taunton can do what it likes with what we post. The fine print leaves no doubt. And it is also clear that Taunton grants the right to posters to delete their posts at any time in the future. Personally, I think that is strange and I do not understand why it should be so. One question as yet unasked here is can Taunton publish in their mag a post that has been deleted? I would think that Taunton would do well to address this issue in the fine print.As for reposting someone else's posts, I think a useful perspective is the fair use copywrite laws. If someone publishes something (a pamphlet for example) then someone else cannot republish it without permission. However, it is acceptable for someone to quote small amounts of the pamphlet without permission but giving proper notice of having done so.Now, I have no idea if that law applies in this case or not. But I think it is a useful anology. To me, Joe's reposting of Fred's entire post does "feel" wrong. I think the difference in scale from quoting a small portion is great enough that it has become a completly different thing.The weird thing here for me is that I cannot fathom why Fred would want to delete his posts and I think it is unfortunate. Further, to me, every time Fred does so, it is a victory for Joe. But then Joe snatches defeat from victory by reposting Fred's post! Andy steps in to save Joe's win and Joe cries foul!Folks.i Thisis entertainment!Rich Beckman
*....you're right Rich... very entertaining... right up there with tag-team wrestling.....come on Paddy... I'm dying over heah......(PUFF, PUFF)...FredL... I think you should rethink the way the internet works and for that matter , your own PRIVATE emails...the entire world is doing CLICK, CUT, COPY, ...PASTE..and they're goig to continue doing it, and they do it to yur private emails too...(never seen it, bet you wouldn't dispute it)..Andy's silence on this point is deafening...I'm sticking with the LOOK & FEEL line in the sand..I think you and i can develop a working relationship jsut based on not dissing each other.. i think your theories have merit... if i see something i disagee with, you'll hear about it.. but this issue is self defeating..the more you protest, the more curious people become..have fun at your conference, I'd love to come, and finally get my certificate, but paying the bills is #1 here.. and i'm looking forward to JLC in Providence in May... and PeteFest2K in August...but go ahead and delete... not only does Joe have every one.... but ECHELON has it all too, ... ......dum,da-dum-dum..and don't forget, there are 9 million stories in the naked City, ad Joe Fuscoe is only one of them..if i died tomorrow, and Joe did , and you did, the board would limp along without us.. and the same personalities would return with different names...each unique.. and that is what makes it interesting..hey FredB... who are these nasty people who are advertising on the Board?... shud i be looking in the mirror?b all three of us agree on this one..b Kermitb Pogob & Mike
*Deletions...editing....I have done both...As these words are gonna be available and quotable and savable by anyone who happens upon them here, in the magazine or anywhere...Last year I deleted quite abit as I realised this...I read my posts pretending to be a client or a friend of mine...thinking all the time is that who I want to appear to be?...This is a public board and it is Taunton's and they do not need our permission to reprint us in their magazine. They state that clearly for all to read in the terms of use blah blah section...Too bad you lost a client Jeff but you did learn a lesson...That client could have read it here just as easily as he read it in the magazine you silly boy so now you know...Sysop ..as many who do not flame here have said many times, go right ahead and squelch them anyway you see fit as most of us that understand english know this is b your board and your "living room."near the stream ready to buy beers for anybody that wants to go to Centerfolds during the JLC event!near the stream,aj
*whats the centerfolds? you come to providence i'll take ya to "Lobstermania" in East Greenwich.. is that the JLC event yur talkin about?
*
View Image © 1999-2000"The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." Plato
*This board is unique in terms of how far things are allowed to go. Many appreciate the ability to occasionally cyber-yell at a fellow poster when warranted. That said, while it may be nice to vent at a fellow poster once in a while, it shouldn't be an everyday thing. That only serves to turn this forum into a parody of what it is supposed to be.Other forums may be "dry" and lack "personality" when compared to BT. However, those other forums also maintain what BT, on occasion, loses...professionalism and civility. This place does get a bit cartoonish at times. Too much of anything detracts. Too much rigidity, too much freedom to post what you want. We need a balance...People deleting their own posts? BT offers the ability to do so, so why not? If it makes a conversation one-sided? Who cares? Is it really that important? Andy/Taunton doing the deleting? It's their forum. And what actually are they deleting? Useful postings? Vengeful rants? If they detract from an actual building thread, Taunton is hurting their own forum. Tough. If they delete a cartoonish rant, they're hurting someone's feelings. Tough.This is Taunton's board. Their end-goal is to use it as a marketing tool and revenue enhancer to Taunton's bottom line. The fact that is serves my purposes for education, entertainment, and a "sense of community" are offshoots of that. They pay for bandwidth. They allow me to use it. They use my postings to bring more people in. More people means more advertising link hits, more possible subscriptions, more money to Taunton. What do I get? A chance to learn from others. Material sources, building techniques, construction theory, etc. I, on occasion, help others. We each give, we each get. But it still belongs to Taunton...As to them using postings in the magazine...that's their game. While they could have, nothing should have been used until we were forewarned regarding the possibility of having postings appear in print. It's not required, it's simply good business. Grandfather all previously existing threads, for instance, as off limits. I think, based upon the structure of the board, postings over at the Woodshed should be off-limits to inclusion in the magazine. They certainly can use them if desired, but considering that Taunton encourages us to go to the 'shed and "relax" with a beverage and off-topic conversation...In the end? Let the poster beware...You want total control? Set up your own web page or start your own forum. It's not tough to do. Getting traffic and hits is. Will you allow an "anything goes" atmosphere your site? Even if it drives off hits and costs you money?Censorship is bad. In context. Any of us can write what we choose and post it on the web on our very own pages. Any of us can go out on the street corner and, within reason, spout off from atop a soap box. We won't be jailed. We won't be dragged off to a back room and beaten. Avenues are available to those that want to get their words, their thoughts, out in the public domain. Please don't start with the argument that "Andy's action is just the first step towards limitation of speech." Never, in the history of mankind, has their been more "freedom of speech." All courtesy of the internet. Taunton is simply doing what they have the right to do. They're trying to limit undesired behaviour, with "undesired behaviour" being defined as they choose. It's their house. Were Andy's actions one-sided? Too little, too late? Too much, too soon? He just took over here as forum-guru not too long ago. BTW, we shouldn't need somone checking the quality or context of our posts. We should be doing that ourselves prior to pressing the "Post My Message" icon. It goes past professionalism. It's more just part of trying to be a better person. Personal accountability.To Taunton, this forum is a "business". They'll keep it in its current form as long as it makes money, or at least doesn't detract from their image and bottom line. For us, don't think you have a right to post here. It's more a privilege. Think of this forum as a "toy" you're allowed to play with. Consider Taunton is the "Daddy". If or when we break this "toy", or make enough noise with it that we piss "Daddy" off, he's going to take it away. Absolutely horrible analogy. Sorry! But it is a toy. And it is a privilege to play with it. Make sure you don't break it.I want my posts to do a couple of things...add constructively to conversation, and not embarrass me should my little kids happen to read them.
*Yikes!20 posts in two days! what a hot button!Jeff,I've been quoted in the breaktime column in the mag a couple of times too. In one of the first ones, I think.So I was aware early on that everything you put out here is out here for others to do as they will with. Like it or not, it is Taunton's toy to do with as they will. Just understand the nature of the beast and think about your words very carefully before you send them into the ether.It's good practice for acting like a professional.There are quite a few posters who I would never hire to work for me based on the tone and content of their intercourse here.It's not just other contractors who come by either. Clients and potential clients are everywhere. As my wife says, you have to dress well everytime you go outside, because you never know who you'll run into.Small-town life is good traing for that.Steve
*I was just at the JLC site. They have a box to uncheck if you don't give permission to print. The technology is there, I just think it's unneccessary. Edit yourself first, type second. Jeff/Buck Construction
*Some see an open door policy as one that invites and encourages abuse. Well, if you break enough things in someone's house they're eventually going to padlock the door and put in a peephole to see who's knocking.It would be nice if the "open door" was appreciated for what it is. An invitation to use, not abuse.You've referred to another forum, "Badger Pond"(?), and lamented at how the sysop over there controls things a bit too much. I'd hate to see Taunton either be pushed down that road, or choose to take that path of their own volition.
*Jeff, I don't recall the magazine inclusion that you're referring to. However, there was one of your posts that should have been in there.A while back, a poster asked about noise in his hydronic heating system. I remember you essentially rebuilding his setup in your shop and troubleshooting along with him. Someone else (could have been you) even offered to send him a piece of PEX to isolate his pump from the copper.If there was ever a post that oozed "over and above the call of cyber-duty", I though that thread was it. You've had quite a few other gems as well.That's one that should have made it. If it ever does, toss it back at your lost customer. His loss.Later, Mongo
*... jeff, it must have been something he ate....you still alive out there Jeff?.. hows it commin?you ready to ship that boiler?... good, ah huh, i see...yup...me too..well, i'm workin on it...ok bye..
*Joe...now you've burnt the b lobsters buddy!!!!Listen...I put em in...when the water reboils, give em another b ten minutes max!!!....Then you gotta turn off the heat buddy!near the stream fishin for a new batch....I may have to let a couple "big uns" out after ya!Really now Joe, really...we love you man...we all do...near the "steamed"...(hee hee), gettin my butt r**med!!!aj
*b ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ. ..Wha?...huh?...Oh man, whata weird dream. . .kinda Fellini-esque. There were all these people jumpin around chantingb Yo Freddy!! and then out of the crowd there was Fred himself, lookin just like that picture that Jimbob mentioned, waving this placard that said in big bold typeb Burning My Booksand leaning right into my face he said all serious likei "I feel that trying to capture and preserve an idea destroys it"I love the way every thing is exaggerated in dreams. Like when you know something about someone, like Fred and his bafflegab, and it gets totally over the top in a dream.It's such a blast. .. getting a guy who loves the sound of his own words, and who has published magazine articles, and plans to publish a book to sayi "They were useless, dead words that nobody was interested in, until they were gone."That theatre of the absurd stuff is always so great... buti that one was some weird. Yo, Harold Pinter!Wonder what Dr. Guido would think?Ya know if I hadn't awakened I woulda asked him why he'd ever bother posting in the future... but it i wasjust a dream... I can't imagine Fred sayin something i that dumb in real life.I love dreams. You can make people jump around like idiots and say totally dumb shit.Say.. . that dream would make a good video for the i Freddy Rap.Wonder if Fred would make a cameo appearance???Yawn!
*Wow, if you guys bitch and moan as much on site as you do online you must be a real picnic to work with.
*Mongo,
Mongo - 02:49am Sep 17, 1999 EST ( 5.1) Dickie is now working for Joe. From what I heard they got into an argument about building nomenclature. You know, casing vs architrave, metal wire-like things that are pointed on one end and flat on the other vs nails. Anyhow Joe took Dickie's internet priveledges away for a while until he gets his vocabulary up to speed.
© 1999-2000"The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." Plato
*....Scott...just feel free to jump right in where angles fear to tread....in the meantime...perhaps u cud come over to the tavern, bend a cupl albows and 'splain this joke to me.."Why did the the California Blondes stop playing frisbee? It was ruining their teeth. " man, now i got somethin real to bitch about...
*Mike, They...were...catching...the...frisbee...with...their...teeth. You don't happen to have blond hair do you?Just kiddin'Scott
*Jeff, I don't know the content of Your post or why Your customer took offense. I'll be glad to look it up if You email me the issue it was in. I don't feel I could comment on it without the specifics. I appreciate the forum that Taunton has provided here and those that contriute to it, yourself included. As this is a public board it should be treated that way. I might add that there could be some note to let everyone know that their comments here may end up in print but it is their house. For what it's worth. Skip
*The post that caused the ruckus between my contractor and I was a concerning my firing my father.I wrote it for several reasons. The first because I thought it would be entertaining. Second, it was sort of a public apology to my father whom I have a great relationship with. I showed him the post the next day and we had a great laugh. It resulted in a great evening of BS'ing about the old times when we were both younger. At the time this event occurred, we were both trying at each other's nerves as is typical when many fathers and sons work together. We are/were both extremely stubborn and set in our ways. Being Scotch/Irish tosses another Christian in the ring.Third, I am sure that many of you who read my post could relate via your own experiences working with your own fathers and/or grandfathers. I for one wouldn't trade those experiences for anything in this world. My father, myself and anyone who was present for some of our knock-down dragout rants and situations have some really interesting tales to tell. One thing is certain; we could always separate business from blood after the workday(well, sometimes it was the workweek,[g]).Sorry I can't find the original post in the archives and I don't covet my past issues of Finehomebuilding in one place (I have been reading them for at least 10 years now.) If anyone finds it, post it here. I think it was in the 1st to third issue that they started using posts from Breaktime.My point in starting this thread was not that I had somehow been "wronged" by Taunton. That is simply not the case. I was simply comparing the right of JoeF to quote FreddyL in comparison to the right of Taunton to lift a post from Breaktime and publish it in a magazine for their benefit. Any logical person who was to read this piece could obviously recognize that I was making light of a very humorous and human incident that is part of family working together. That the article was published in a magazine circulating to the trade or public was also of no concern to me then nor now. My contractor client could not see through the hidden message within nor the atmosphere in which I posted it and decided to take the words I had written literally and personally without so much as a miniscule amount of thought process. He is so narrow minded to have passed judgement that we would have probably parted ways over other issues. What he read in Fine Homebuilding, and the way he interpreted it, was only an indication of our incompatibility in working together. As a matter of fact, we had had several heated discussions concerning my way of doing things and "the way HE had always done them in the past and it always worked". If it would have made a difference, I would have reminded him that it was he who sought me for my expertise, not I who was soliciting work from him.Enough of my ranting. Pops is getting ready to leave for a month's vacation in Florida. He's dead set on going to Plains Georgia on the way to the CART race in Homestead to spend time with my younger brother at his avocation and of course satisfying his own addiction in supporting Payton/Coyne racing and generally getting in the way and offering his wisdom to ensure they have a profitable season.[g] He wants to go to Sunday school at Jimmy Carters church on Sunday. I was having a couple of beers with him this evening and told him "that would be a GOOD THING pops, going to Jimmy's Sunday School class" just so he could attone for his sins and get forgiveness for the 4 or 5 times he "ran me off the job" when I was a young buck.We had a good laugh and cracked another Rolling Rock. I will certainly miss him and worry that he makes it there and back safely. He probably won't call every day to check in and he still thinks all this new-fangled cell phone shit is just bogus. Guess I will just give up on trying to teach the old man new tricks. He's gotten along pretty well without my advice for the last 69 years. I trust he will turn out OK, I guess.
*Skip:Re your statement:i "I might add that there could be some note to let everyone know that their comments here may end up in print but it is their house."From the b Content Policy subfolder, the b Content policy states: i "USE OF MATERIAL POSTED BY YOU: Postings to the Site are not private. You grant Taunton the unrestricted right to use, reproduce, modify, translate, and distribute any material you post to the Site in any medium (now in existence or hereafter developed), and for any purpose, including commercial uses, and to authorize others to do so. " Not sure how much more clear that could be.
*Jeff:The picture is now much clearer. Your point is well taken.
*MattG.,
View Image © 1999-2000"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle
*I should explain, in Taunton's defense -- or more specifically in defense of their corporate counsel -- that internet law is a chaotic and inhospital place. The courts ask, is it like the telephone? The public bulletin board? Private mail? Newspapers? You get the idea -- the novelty means laws need to be written and rewritten.If Taunton edits the site, they may be exposed to a libel lawsuit -- the plaintiff will say, you published this person's defamation of me and therefore you too are a libeler. By taking responsibility for content, they are also liable for it, just as they are liable for the contents of the magazine. (Including, in the print form, jj's posting!) I know the idea of anyone HERE suing for libel is incredible, but...If Taunton stays entirely hands-off, the place may go to the dogs... also, they -do- want to assert a property right in the postings -- they are -not- saying the postings are public domain, rather that the postings are -their- property! Fair enough, it's partial payback for their efforts. Now ... if the place goes ka-boom, so much for all their work building a site image.IMHO, but not in a professional (liable!) legal capacity, Taunton has adequately disclaimed their liability and set forth the implied assent of participants to forfeit any proprietary rights (copyright) in their writings ... that Taunton says it may edit at will doesn't mean as much as what they actually do ... so now, as they foray into editorial discretion, they do so at their risk. I recommend Taunton leave things well enough alone, and that participants practice and preach civility. Take the profane disputes 'outside' to e-mail, which most recognize is private. (Unless you send/receive it at the office ... another privacy topic....) If Taunton begins to edit selectively or recklessly, well that's probably their worst possible choice.jj, you're a good guy, keep on posting. And hang on to that dad of yours.
*If it's the short story about a tub removal and finding a lost mallet...it's on page 14 of July '99. If that's the one, you're right, you and the builder were fighting about more than that! I hope, for his sake! Seems innocent enough to me, assuming that's the post refered to. Jeff/Buck Const...look up "hidden treasures" in search. Comes up in a reply to "Brewskie"
*Thank you Andrew(my favourite barrister).I happen to have taken a flight between Denver and Chicago this evening and the conversation amongst those of us between the left side of the plane got around to construction. I mentioned FineHomebuilding and lo and behold, both of these guys have been 'lurkers' on the Breaktime site.Guess whose name they brought up?You guessed it Andrew!!! It was you. These weekend warriors(Chi-Town corporate types) have been fans of yours. Go Figure!!!?? An attorney turned woodchucker?? I got the impression they were secretly hugging a Shopsmith babe on their offtime.[g-agin]Small world isn't it Andrew?And don't you worry about my pops, we been doin' some heavy duty fightin' about him learning to use the calling card to call home every nite. A little pleading from his grandaughters cinched the commitment.BTW, how is that new addition of yours performing.....Mr. Mom???Respectfully,Jeffie
*I guess I never thought about us being quoted in the magazine without being asked. So far, two of you have had your words used against you because of this. I'll definately be more careful what I say now. I guess this isn't the safe, comfortable place I thought it was.Expect some deleted posts from me now ala Fred.
*Ryan,Always keep your shirt tucked in, your hair combed and don't go out wearin' those jeans with the holes in the ass--at least not without wearin' biege underwear. Ya never know who ya might run into ;-)Steve
*All smiles... The new addition is a gentle wonder.
*I just discovered, while catching up on the i "CAZ Outside. . ." thread, that all of FredL's deleted posts are no longer identified as having been his, however other deleted posts have b their authours name still attached.I imagine that Fred requested this so he wouldn't contiue to look like the jerk he is to any newcomers. A year or more ago, when he was getting equally preferential treatment during another i controversy,I suggested that FHb actually stood for Fred's Homeboard! Not much really changes where this guy is concerned.Welcome to the ongoing saga of i Taunton Double Standards.Hey Andy. . .how along are you gonna ignore our questions here???Just to be clear, I think it sucks that the content of the archives can be undulyi influenced by one childish, petulant individual.I think deletions should have a time limit, and certainly not more than 24 hours, plenty of time to check facts, see things differently, regret an outburst, whatever!!!One rule for b all.Identify the authour of all deleted posts.Increasingly disappointed in you-pm
*Above message deleted by David. I meant to post it as a reply to Patrick's post rather than as a new post.David