I have a good idea, but it never ceases to amaze me when I see things like I saw tonight, so I thought I would share it with you guys.
I went to look at a deck expansion/screen porch job tonight. One of the desirable neighborhoods in our small town, some of the “better” builders, nice development. I was sizing up the project, and went below the deck to get a feel for structural concerns, and evaluate the quality of the deck we would be extending or building on. Home owner remarks that it was built the last week before closing in november, by a couple of teenagers. I asked if they were amish, and he said they were wearing “funny clothes and hats”. Anyhow, I notice no visible lag/carriage bolts in ledger, and its only sparsely nailed. By the way, house is 2 years old. I think maybe they were tricky and hid the lags behind the joists. There’s enough of a crack between the joist and the ledger to see if there was, nope don’t think so. I go inside to see if I can see any lags through the ledger. About two thirds of the run of the deck is drywalled, but in the remaining 5 feet after pulling away the insulation I don’t see any. Maybe they put the deck joists inline with the house joists, hey I’m an optimist. Doubtful. At least from what I can see, the ledger is flashed correctly, the nails should hold for a while anyhow. I tell the homeowner that this may not be engineered properly. Maybe he should call the builder and ask if they want to come have a look, I think they will respond pretty quickly(like the same day).
So we have a look at the support posts, 6×6’s about 10 feet from grade to beam. I say I’ll probably have to excavate those to ensure that the footings can handle additional loads. He says, they put concrete in them, I’m shocked. Around here its common practice to set the posts on a scrap of 2×10, or dirt for that matter. He says, the holes were full of water, and he watched them pour the concete right from the bag into the water. Mixed it right in the hole. I commented on what a timesaver that was.
Then I’m looking at the joist hangers, and note that they used what looked like maybe a 6d nail to fasten them. Hey at least they were galvanized. Used them for the shear holes too. Never mind that its stamped “use 10d common for shear” right beside the hole.
By this time, the homeowner is shaking one of the newels, and asking if it is a problem to be this loose. I look at the connection to the rim and its got about 20 nails in it and the wood is split to hell. “Yeah, we bolt those on too.”
Makes me feel good about the probably 400k that it takes to run the codes department in our town of about 40,000. The screwy thing is the rest of the deck and the parts of the house that I saw had a pretty decent finish.
We just had a nice deck collapse here locally too. More people have been killed by failed decks than kids killed by front airbags. What’s it gonna take?
Tom
Replies
Amen. Happened here too couple of years ago. Graduation party in Omaha went sour after a dozen some folks on the deck got an unexpected ride straight down. This strikes at an issue near and dear to me, and I don't know if I have the straight answer on it yet. I am continually seeing lousy workmanship coming out of otherwise reputable places. Let's use "Joe" as an example. I've seen the houses Joe puts up, and the aesthetic is grand. Everything to the naked eye looks like a half mil home. So why am I (the remodeling / repair guy) there? In the last year, I've been in five of Joes houses where the windows leaked. In all five cases, the doors, or at least one door in the house, didn't shut properly. In one, two patio doors leaked bad enough when it rained that the water pooled several feet in from the doors. Ive dismantled some things and discovered that common practice for hanging a door around here seems to be walking up to the RO, sticking the door in, and shooting a dozen 3" nails from a framing gun through the brickmold. No wonder they don't work. Not a shim in sight. But this isn't it. Siding where at a corner, they just butted J channel together (ran out of corner?) and put 2 nails in an 8' length of channel, and no backing. Water came in. Patio doors that buck when they open - simply didn't take time to adjust the rollers. Caluking around tubs that splits out after move in - didn't fill it with water when they caulked. So my quandry is - this guy isn't an idiot. He has to know better, and his reputation gets demolished every time something goes wrong in a new home of his. Why does he let this stuff pass, why don't the building inspectors catch more of it, what's the motivation for the subs to do such crummy work? Is it time? The idea that once you bid it, the only thing that matters is speed and the profit?
PROFIT. Basically profit is probably the culprit. My house is a 150k 'custom' built, meaning it is not a 'track' house and also meaning there are no plans or arche drawings of any kind of it. However. All those little things are done right. The deck is solid, the plumbing is all copper and the doors all hang right. (squeak, but I kinda like to know when somebody is walknig around) The floor pops like popcorn in couple places, but it was built in winter and I think the decking got wet. Now, all that to say, I am currently working in a neighborhood of houses that are double the price of mine or much higher. Plastic plumbing everywhere and I mean the tube and clamp type. They leak, or leaked a lot, windows, doors, etc. The deck build quality isn't to my standards and the 'extra' features like hottubs, whole house sound systems, were either poorly installed or not completed.
My builder lives at the end of my block. I stopped by thanked him for the nicer and more important quality features we've got.
Maybe a well written article like this in the local rag with a photo or two. Being careful to focus on the issue without being specific about the offender.
It's no wonder I lose deck jobs to DIY homeowners and hacks for a cheaper price. Two recent examples: ledger board looks like it's lagged to foundation wall but in reality the lags are cut off at 1" and the only thing holding it up is cut nails in the block. The other is a 4th floor condo deck ( 30' up)with roofing nails in the joist hangers.
I also like the main beam joints not over posts.
roofing nails in the joist hangers? Where's the inspector? I kept telling my uncle, who I put up a deck for, that we had to use 5/8" through bolts to bolt the joists to the pier posts. He produced a bucket of 3/8" or 1/2" lag bolts and all but pitched a fit for me to use them. I did, and then waited for the inspector to come and say, 'You'll have to replace those lags with 5/8" through bolts according to the design...yadda yadda.'
Added another 1/2 day, but at least I don't worry about getting a call saying he and my aunt rode their deck down into the pasture behind their house one night.
Oh, and did I mention he bought the lag bolts used for $10 for the bucket at a flea market and then rescued the bolts from his barn fire? Looking at those scorched things I was just afraid it wouldn't stay up long enough for the inspector to get there!
criticize the act, not the person, pif, you are a saint.
Tom
Tell it to Lary
O;-)
Like my halo?
Excellence is its own reward!
This is why I have to put 3/8" X 6" lag bolts every 3" in a ledger.
first it was every 4'
then every 2'
then 16" o.c.
now 6" o.c. in a zig zag pattern or every 3"
Why? Because people are dying due to contractors or homeowners being cheap or lazy.
Now we have engineers over engineering.
That many bolts blasts out the integrity of the wood not to mention how dumb it is to put a 6" lag in 3"-4" of material.
This is one reason your deck cost so much.Bob
"Rather be a hammer than a nail"
Lags every 3 inches?!?
Tell me you aren't serious! You are certainly right that that is a ridiculus practice and I would think one that seriously jeopardizes the integrity of the wood. Who in your area is mandating such a practice and why don't you and all your fellow contractors oppose this? If this is the work of one code official or local code body (city/town) I would be inclined to get up a signed pettition from all area contractors and send such pettition to your State Board of Inspections Department and formally ask them to hand out a written explanation on whether they support such a practice or not. If the State Dept says no to this practice, then they should be able to over-rule your local inspections department.
If it were me, any time a local inspector would demand me to adhere to this ledger attachment practice, I think I'd say "Sure thing. I'll gladly install these here lag bolts 3 inch OC just as soon as you sign this here RELEASE FORM that my attorney drew up for me stating that YOU and your Code Office hereby agrees to assume all liabilities that may be incurred should this deck ledger ever fail, and further that You will hold me and my construction company harmless from any lawsuits that will eventually arise from such failure."
I bet you anything the Code Enforcement Officer will refuse to sign such a document...to which my reply would be ; "If you don't have the stones to put your neck on the line, then don't expect to hang my neck out there.
Yeah, your Code Enforcement Official and I would definately be tangling over that one!
Davo
"Maybe a well written article like this in the local rag with a photo or two."
I think Piffin's right. (That's twice this week!)
Andy, are ya out there ??? Seems like something in the homebuilding world that's causing serious injury to people would be a worthwhile article.
Then maybe on the back page you could have pictures of someone doing a back flip off a 2 story deck..............(-:
I saw a bank that said if offered 24 Hour Banking but I didn't go in. I didn't have that much time.
I don't think the folks building cheap decks are gonna read about how to do it right in FHB. Not always the case, maybe, but I see a lot of decks put up by "Cheap Charlie" after a home is finalled and either the HO does it himself or hires some hack to do it. After all, anybody can build a deck, right?
I like Piffin's thought about going to the local rags with this one.
There was a deck fell off a motel in Eugene, Or. early this summer with a bunch of High school kids on it (no serious injuries). While the decks on the motel were a few years old, it turns out the framing was untreated wood. Further inspections found rot in most of the decks in the facility and they were, of course, replaced.
A local article could cite the one in FHB as a reference for credibility, of course, with it's national status and all.
My thinking was that in the life section of the weekend paper, the people who are doing their own work are getting educated. The people who are hiring teenagers to do the work or cheap charlie's contracting crew are educated enough to keep from getting screwed.
I was just wondering how many of these decks were built by that irish gypsie gang, the travelorsExcellence is its own reward!
Piffin
From what I have read about them I don't think that the Travelers would build a deck. It takes too long. And they would have to order up materials.
Most of the scams that I have heard about they spray or roll on a "coating" so that they can be gone and cash the check before anyone is wise.
I knew that but the ethical comparrison is what I was trying to bring out. These deck builders disappear before the deck falls off the house.Excellence is its own reward!
"Makes me feel good about the probably 400k that it takes to run the codes department in our town of about 40,000. The screwy thing is the rest of the deck and the parts of the house that I saw had a pretty decent finish. "
You mentioned it was put on the 2 weeks before closing: do you suppose the CoO was issued before they put the deck on? That's pretty common in my area, and the code bubbas never get a call.
Tom, I hear ya all the way. I just finished fixing a mess like you have. The home owners couldn't sell the house until the repairs were completed. This was a 900,000.00 home and the deck was part of the original construction. This was as close to comming apart as I have ever seen one and the house is only 10 years old!
There was a deck failure back east a few days ago that made national news on the Tribune/WB station here. Twenty people were hurt. The pictures were from rather far away, and at night, but it did look a lot like the ledger pulled away from the house. Did anybody else see that?
An article in FHB would be a good idea, and then send copies to the TV stations with the suggestion that they do a follow-up on why these things happen.
-- J.S.
Yeah, that was the one I was refering to. Don't recall where it was.
Had a conversation with the inspector who signed off on the deck I described today. I asked him what he was requiring for deck ledger attachment since the code is relatively silent on this issue. He said " oh no, it says that a deck should be securely attached". He asked if I would be using joist hangers. I asked what he likes to see for full joist depth ledger attached to the rim joist. He asked what I had in mind. I asked if nails would be sufficient. He said it would be good to lag it. I asked if he would be surprised if a deck in that particular subdivision was only nailed. He said not if it was securely attached. He said most guys don't use ledgers anymore, they use hangers.
I was on the verge of pissing him off so I stopped asking questions. I'm pretty sure we don't have code guidance here other than "securely attached". That combined with this particular inspector, scares me.
The fun will start when the bad flashing details start catching up to the crappy fastening.
Your deck collapse repair specialist...Tom