Ive been wondering that for a long time why there are so many threads on drywall here when normally its subbed out.
In your own words , what do you think?
Tim
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Just a guess.
Around here anyway it's hard-impossible to sub out small jobs and repairs, so more people have to learn how to tackle it on there own, prompting the vast number of questions.
and I have a question on DW, I saw some sort of "low dust" mud displayed in the front homedepot the other day, anyone have any experience with it?
There was a thread about that stuff a few weeks ago.
Seems some found it to be less dust, but still not no dust.
Joe H
It's cuz drywall is such a pita for us diy-ers. I remember a fella who explained mudding as,
"first you mud, then you sand,
then you mud and then you sand,
and then you mud
and then you sand
and then you mud
and then you ................................................................
For a DIY drywall is a lot of work. For people with bad backs and neck problems hanging the drywall is not worth it. Taping and texturing is a bit of an art form and if you mess up that job the entire house looks like crap, and this is the only thing other people will ever see. For $3000 we were able to pay someone to come in and hang it, tape it, and texture it. Thats a deal if you ask me!John
Small house?
My last drywall sub bill came in around 21K
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That seems like a lot. My last sub bill was $4,400 on a 2100 sq.ft. house, garage, 20% 10 ft. ceilings. The mexicans come in like hornets and are out in 4 days. They get $16 a board, intall, and mud. That's $16 for a 4'X12' sheet.
What do your guys get and where are you located.
This is N.C.
A little over 3500 sq ft of floor space in this, but all cut up cape with sloping cielings on three floor levels with one room going to 14' high.No imported labor and includes trans to an island. Sprayed primer on too
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And what is their rate?
I have the guy walk through, he uses his tape, and gives me a total price.
He never changes it, he does the work on schedule, and it is always primo work. I would have to go measure how many boards and divide back to know his piece rate.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
How do you estimate for something like that?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Walk him through it. He gives me the estimate.Last job before this was 25K.One before that was 18K , go back another one and it was 14K. Several smaller ones at 5-11K. We have a history and I can guess him within 5%In remodeling older homes like this a standard qft price is worthless to either of us. Every job is different. Third floor with angled shapes is way more than a walkout basement with all standard sized rooms. A 14' cathedral cieling ain't cheap.He ain't the cheap DW guy around either, but he has the same crews for years. And I write a check when he hands over the bill. He never asks for an advance. Another builder here was bragging how he had found a DW guy at 60% of the price Irv had quoted. Six weeks later, a third of his SR was hung, he was nervous about how far behind scedule he was because of the hack, the guy wanted an advance, and the finished job three months later was poor. We were already well into trim by then.
But he had quoted a great sq ft price!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
" He ain't the cheap DW guy around either, but he has the same crews for years."
That says quite a lot and thats one of the main things I look at when I'm deciding who I want to do business with, whether its subbing out drywall or buying groceries.
Sometimes thats a hard sell to my customers because it means they are usually gonna pay a little more. I t also means that if there's a problem, somebody is gonna take care of it. It means that the guy I bought the window from has been around long enought to be on a first name basis with the guy on the other end of the phone who takes care of the warranty issues. It means that the person who made the window makes a semi decent living at it and knows the job.
I want to do business with people who run a good show and take care of their employees. I try not to bargain shop my neighbors out of their jobs!
Rant!
Tom
We thought you were just into framing, given the discussion on 10/0 walls and window sizing?
You building two houses? One just now framing and the other just finished sheetrock finish?
if he's doing al that sanding in between, he has no idea how to mud
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
It's cuz drywall is such a pita for us diy-ers. I remember a fella who explained mudding as,
"first you mud, then you sand,
then you mud and then you sand,
and then you mud
and then you sand
and then you mud
and then you ........................................."
Norm,
That's the problem. You never go in expecting to sand......feather it, sponge it. last coat maybe.
WSJ
Edited 11/25/2005 9:49 am ET by WorkshopJon
I'm with you there. My philosophy is to mud with the expectation that I wont have to sand at all, and then wind up sanding only minimally. It has made me a fairly good hand with trowel and knife.
Tom
Used 15 gallons "low dust" compound last week.
Be advised that it does not produce less dust than any other compound. The only way to make less dust is to sand less. The better your initial troweling of the mud, the less sanding you will need to do.
My experience with this material is that it produces less airborne dust, when sanded the dust has a tendency to drop straight to the floor and fly around less.
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
Well one thing attractive about it is inexpensive materials. And it doesn't take a lot of expensive or complicated tools. And the process itself IS staright forward.
Plus, it's not structural like concrete or framing so if you screw it up it just LOOKS bad, it's not dangerous. And it's not the flashy work most people pay attention to as they walk into your house, it's a background element, so the differences between an excellent and a pretty good job aren't as obvious as they would be in, say, the cabinetry or woodwork.
Plus, I agree with what an earlier poster said about the difficulty getting a professional to hang and tape a few sheets.
So, all in all, I think the average DIYer thinks "why not? I'll give it a try.".
Twice this week I've disagreed with you. Hope yopu don't get the idea I'm picking on ya -" it's not structural like concrete or framing so if you screw it up it just LOOKS bad, it's not dangerous."Ever see a cieling fall down?anyways - have a good turkey
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Yeah, that's because they used those stupid drywall screws
Little off subject but I highly recommend purchasing a drywall carrying handle. I bought one a year ago and it makes carrying heavy drywall much easier. The handle is plastic and costs about $6.
Ive been wondering that for a long time why there are so many threads on drywall here when normally its subbed out.
In your own words , what do you think? >>
It relates directly to other carpentry skills and there are times when you really have to hang and tape a few boards yourself.
Case in point; I'm doing a complete bathroom remodel right now, solo. Demo to the framing, replumb and revent, electrical, sheet rock and tape, fixture installation, tile and....a small amount of carpentry. I even checked out renting a board lifter today, so I won't have to beg an hour's help from a friend when it comes time to hang the ten or so boards.
Also, being good at drywall application gives me another trade to work at, when things are slow and times are tough. And...it's inside work.
Because mostly it's an art form that requires time to learn properly. One needs and artistic hand to master it. I've heard from many remodelers that "I can do anything on a new house, but I can't finish."
Drywall installation also requires more time to learn than say doing a patio deck. One does just not cut the board and nail it.
Also because the lack of excellence in the craft shows..not like in framing, electrical. Compare it to a master cabinet maker and not to the factory made cabinet. Simply, there is more to it than meets the eye!
"Drywall installation also requires more time to learn than say doing a patio deck. One does just not cut the board and nail it."
I got news for ya.building a deck involves a WHOLE LOT MORE than that. I'd say I've done an equal amt of both decks and finishing DW, and I can definitely say I use far more skills and brains in the decks.not to say that DW is brainless or unskilled. you have to pay attention every minute to get it right and there is plenty that can go wrong or that an unskilled taper can do to cause himself grief
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin,
I helped once doing a patio deck, it was the only time. I'd say if I watched him only doing it that I can do the next one without any help.
I'm sure you can watch a hanger hang the rock and do it it pretty well, you will probably make some minor mistakes that can be corrected by the finisher.
Watch someone finish 40 boards from the beginning to the end and then do the next one yourself if you've never done it...the drywall will have to come down and start again.
same thing with building a deck. Watch once and then try to design and built it, and it'll be sloppy and deangerous to use. I'm giving credit for SR being a skilled job. You can do the same for building decks, because I'll gaurandamntee that you cannot do a good job if the only training you have is watching/helping on one.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
You got to know how it's supposed to be done so you can make sure your subs are doing it right.
I think because is the finish.
And nothing like a good finish.
Back to the dust and sanding?
I'm wondering what happen to the D-Mix?
Maybe we should take a poll? :)
Ill add a little .
Since Ive got quite a bit of time thinking about it .
Really there are several questions but for drywall to get the billing it does is weird to me .
I dont remember a thread about some one pouring their own concrete floor and finishing it . Thats an easiar curve than drywall .
Or someone digging and pouring their footings. You might do it but I dont hear about it .
No one makes their own trusses even for a garage? No one talks about it .
No one does any dirt work? Was Frenchy right about that ? All these carps and no one brings them out of the ground?
I dont ever remember a thread about laying blocks , bricks , rock. No masons here?
All these builders and no one has a portable batch plant?
I dont remember the last thread about bending metal for faciers and soffits. Come on , they rent the brakes.
How long has it been since weve had a good thread about cabinet making ? I know there are several that do it but nobody talks about it and no questions from newbies. That is home building.
Does anyone have a lumber mill? Any loggers? Anyone plane large amounts of lumber?
Is there any one that cuts the trees they build with?
Lots of subjects there .
Tim
Interesting thread.
I think brownbagg does concrete work. Maybe he'll check in with his $.02
I don't do masonry, unless its a VERY small repair. Just never got enough experience to get comfortable doing it. I also was "loaned out" for a week to a mason, by my dad, when I first started. I decided I didn't want to work that hard all my life.
I've done a lot of rock. We used to hang and finish on every addition we did. I'm not sure why my dad did it that way, but I did learn to tape pretty well. Now I'm doing smaller jobs, where 8-10 sheets are all I need, at the most. I still like to tape and spackle, just as long as I don't have to do it every day. And I can manage everything on my own schedule.
cabinets.That's another thing I really like doing. I built all my own kitchen cabinets(cherry), and bath vanities, and bookcases.
Maybe us BTers are just too refined for those mason types. Kinda like the folks at Knots think we're a little rough around the edges.
Is there any one that cuts the trees they build with?
Do you remember a guy named Bob Smalser or something like that? He used to post these long photo laden essays. Some of the stuff he was doing was mind blowing. Stan Foster-ish!
He was building a home in Washington state I think with all with lumber cut on site.
Anyone know what happend to this guy??It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
[email protected]
I think a tree fell on him.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
That's f'd up!!
Would be pretty ironic though..............It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
[email protected]
Bob Smalser just had an article in FWW's annual Tools and Shops issue, on chisels.
It says, in his bio, that he and his wife are building their retirement home in Camp Union, Wa.
Cool!
I'll have to look for it.It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
[email protected]
Does anyone have a lumber mill?
I do - Blodgett might by now - - Hey Jim! told Kathy yet?
Any loggers?
I fell trees, tho I have never hired out for that job -
Anyone plane large amounts of lumber?
many thousands of feet, but*...
Is there any one that cuts the trees they build with?
I do - build and finish** -
*10 miles north of me is the largest hardwood operation in northern Indiana (there's a couple of bigger ones down by the Ohio river) - $6million bandsaw mill - they will process more in a day than I will in my life - so - as I make the claims above, remember that I am the smallest of the small - but it's still great fun - gonna head for the woods this afternoon, got a half dozen trees down, my deer hunter and his sons are processing firwood and I'll drag the logs to one of the cutting stations -
**90% for myself - I've never furnished a framing package for a job - I can't compete $wise with comercial suppliers - a few sticks to match existing and specialty items in renovations and such - did provide the new rafters and strapping and fascia for the mill when the old roof was blown off - that was a pretty good job - http://www.stockdalemill.org/
"there's enough for everyone"
Here here .
I made the statement that in the old days we cut and hauled timber we built with and I think it was disbelieved.
We live in the middle of Southern Pine country and used to have an old town mill that would process what ever you brought them for a board foot price. We cleared land and hauled them the trees before building . Not a logging operation though. Later when we had a lumber yard we bought timber and hired it all milled and dried.
If anyone wanted anything lumber wise cut all they had to do was haul it to them . That was fun. We hauled Oak and Walnut regularly at one time with a pulp wood truck.
Those days are gone . But the band saw mills are making it possible again.
Tim
"I do - Blodgett might by now - - Hey Jim! told Kathy yet?"
Making another (a little higher) offer on one today, David. Made up my mind.
Traded some work to a local landowner a few years ago for a nice pile of old growth Douglas Fir logs with center rot that the mill wouldn't take. Spent a couple weeks sawing it in a specific way so as to maximze vertical grain and stacking the lumber in a pole building we have.
Over the past couple years I've used that fir to build all the windows and doors for our new house. Used some of it to mill the 3+1/4" t&g floor for the living room. Made all the door jambs, and will be milling the casing and base soon (that is, when I manage to settle on the casing details).
I hope to take a similar approach to a house on each of the other three lots we own. We'll see.
I'll say this, a day spent sawing up your own logs, for your own use, is a good day. Don't get very many of those in the course of a career.
when normally its subbed out.
because pro's use subs ...
and this place used to have alot more pro's!
bet there's alot of drywall Q's on TOH and Family HandyMan too ...
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Probably brought up here because a lot of DIY's get in over their heads.
The walls, be they drywall or plaster, are the most visible finish in any room and if done incorrectly they can be a real eyesore.
I believe the walls should not be the focus of attention, letting the trim or even the form of the walls be what catches the eye.
Then there is also the problem that everyone seems to hate the rockers, we are so uncouth! <g>
Mike
Trust in God, but row away from the rocks.
I read just about every thread on drywall because I do small remodeling jobs and it is necessary for me to do it. I can eventually do a passable job, but it takes me longer than someone who is a full time drywall man.
Drywall for me comes at the wrong time in the job.
Its past the point where the customer and I are excited at the start but not close to the end.
Also, many of my customers have unrealistic expectations about drywall. You can "throw up a few sheets" and "a good finish man can cover up a bad carpenter". They really need David Copperfield or Penn and Teller rather than a remodeler.
I am glad to learn everything I can from guys like you because it can ease the headache.
Heres some more.
I was standing in line yesterday waiting to be checked out.
Theres a conversation going on in front of me.
Young guy is building a house and is buying fiber tape . 10 rolls up there on the counter. Sales manager happens to be ringing him up so the kid is being tested. He asks whos doing the work and he says his whole family. Sales guy tries again and says are you having any materials delivered? No, hes been hauling all the material himself offering no more information.
Guy says I need 10 boxes of lite weight mud too. They talk about that for a bit and he intends on taping with it using fiber tape.
No body says a word about it . He rings up and pays his bill and walks out to get loaded. Meanwhile Im staring at the sales manager. But nothing is said.
That guy is ruining his own house this weekend and doesnt know it . I dont think he would have scewed up so big on a deck, but I could be wrong. Maybe I need to see the house hes building .
How many times a day does that deal happen?
Tim
I just visited a callback (hopefully the last of this kind) for the co. I am working for now.
The boss has one of the carps do the drywall and taping. He's not good at it, he hates doing it and it does not result well.
Why he has this guy doing his dw I have no clue.
Anyway, he taped all the flats with fibatape and green mud. It's the joints perpendicular to the framing that have failed.
Do I need to finish?
I've gone over a couple of the joints with setting type compound, but something tells me I'll be back eventually carving out the joints if not removing whole boards.
This guy has close to 30 years in the trades, go figure.
EricIt's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
[email protected]
The guy's better off not getting advise from the HD salesman.
Some of the worst DIY advise I've come across is when I've overheard a HD or Lowe's salesperson telling a customer how to do something.
I don't know that DW gets any more attention here than F/C siding or housewrap or concrete, but that it does pop up a lot is probably due to most folks inexperience and frustration with it.
As far as masonry (concrete, stonework, CBU's, etc,.) I suggested sometime back to the Forum moderator that a masonry category be added to this board, but I got no response. I do visit a couple of masonry sites, but, if folks here think our tavern is rough, it's like a salad boutique compared to the discussions on the masonry sites!
I do recall that a handful of people here either own or have employed portable mills. I owned and operated a Woodmizer LT40HD with a lot of assessories for 14 years and posted a few photos and info over time. Sawed out my own log/timberframe house and a few others, along with barns, sheds, additions, beveled cedar and redwood siding (nice OG VG stuff!), sailboat masts, flagpoles, gunstock blanks....ad nauseum.
But the range of interest here seems to shift over time. Seems a lot of the regulars have gone away, or I don't recognize new screen names since the last registration thingy.
I mostly lurk anymore....a gentle uncoupling I guess.
Good post and thanks .
Lets see if I can draw you out of the shadows?
If you wouldnt mind Id like to start a thread on wood mizing. But I dont feel it needs to be done here and Id like to give it a full chance for maturity of a good thread. You may end uip being the speaker . <G> I cant wait.
Tim