I will try to report this verbatim—except I will change the name to protect the guilty.
A couple of days ago I recieved the following message on my answering machine
“this is Mark Johnson, you can reach me at 330-223-4567.I am buying a house,it’s a FHA deal and I need to have the roof certified.I know the roof needs replaced and I will be doing it myself later this year,or next spring at the earliest.In the meantime I need to have the roof certified that it is going to last at least 2 years in order for the loan to go through. I need to know if you do FHA certifications and if you charge for that. I would appreciate a call back”
now,this prospective homeowner thinks he has made a perfectly reasonable request—-and will never understand why 9 out of 10 contractors will simply hit “delete” after hearing his message. most of my fellow contractors have already spotted at least the following—-
1)FHA—-signals a probable lack of money situation
2) planning to do the roof himself—-also signals a prob. lack of money
3)knows the roof is bad and in fact is planning to do it himself—-but he wants me to sign off on a document certifying that the roof is good.
4) wants to know if I charge for this service—-this is the absolute kicker—this guy is in fact asking me to certify that a roof he already knows is bad,will last 2 years.by so certifying—I will be liable for any leaks for 2 years.AND—this guy apparently thinks there is a chance I would be willing to assume this liability for free!
5)He doesn’t want to pay for a certification—-and he has told me upfront that I won’t be replacing the roof when that finally happens since he is gonna do it himself.
now the surname ” johnson” was changed. in reality the surname was an un-common one—-the same as the surname of someone my wife works with—and I thought it might be a relative. So I called back,luckily got the voice mail,and simply said” this is Stephen Hazlett with Hazlett Roofing and Renovation Ltd.We don’t handle Fha certifications,but I want to thank you for the call just the same. Good luck with your project.
I have to believe that most of the folks that come here complaining of contractor who won’t return their calls——-really and truly believe they have made a reasonable request.I believe they have absolutely NO idea what they have ACTUALLY said.
Replies
It makes perfect sense to me. People don't understand the difference between what you say, and what the other person hears. To you it may come out as a perfectly reasonable request, but what the other person hears is. "I'm a moron and I want to drag you into my world of stupidity, please hold my hand while I drag us both down."
Who Dares Wins.
Gunner,
Your point is well taken here.... A little OT but in this same vein....
I am an engineer not working in my industry because of the economic times. So I took a job at a remodeling company. Just my boss and me. Great work and fun. But my father, who knows my boss well, was speaking to him one day and said something on the order of...
"well, it's great that Rob is working with you now but you know it's only until he gets a real job"
I love my father but he can be a real #### sometimes.
Rob Kress
LOL
I've been driving nails for 35 years now and still looking for a real job.
Actually it was about 14 years ago that I realized this was my calling. That's the day I started to enjoy it and to make money at it.
So that attitude cuts both ways. We can put ourselves down aas much or more than customers do..
Excellence is its own reward!
Try being a farmer. Farmers have an even harder time getting any respect from society in general than the trades represented here may get.
Amen.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Farming would be my first choice if I could afford it. You know the old joke, Ask the farmer what he would do if he won the lottery? He said he'd keep farming until it was all gone!.
Excellence is its own reward!
With the exception of big agribusiness, farming is one of the few business buys all it's supplies retail and then sells all it's production wholesale.
Gabe
I perform service work, as a sub-contractor, for a nationally known window company. I went to a HO's house and saw that all the windows were brick bound. He asked me, straight out, to falsify a report so he could have monetary compenstion to repair/replace his windows. I explained, in a nice way, that this was unethical. It was as if he were deaf...he continually pressed the point.
I finally got out of there and I called and left a message the next day that I wasn't interested in doing any work, of any kind, for him.....ever. He called back and left a message how he was easy to work for and couldn't understand my reasoning.
This guy had absolutely no clue.
I cringe every time I hear someone complaining about contractors......it's not right to assume that of everyone in our trade as a rule. They world is full of nuts... accross the board.
jocobe
That kind of call I like to make in writing..
Excellence is its own reward!
Hey if you that for that guy ..How about Co-signing for this boat I want to buy , Its only a 200' cabin boat that id be using only on weekends.....:>)
Darkworks: No Guns No Butter squilla and the bling bling.
Edited 8/18/2003 12:23:06 AM ET by RonT
The other old farming story is about the guy who had a tractor for sale. No seat, no steering wheel. This was back in the grain embargo days of the Jimmy Carter Administration. It was a " Jimmy Carter Special ", for the farmer who's lost his a## and didn't know which way to turn !
Greg
I kind of fell into a similar situation as you. Only I was tired of being on the road all the time. I took a job with a local real small electrical contractor, and learned the trade. The guy was good and so was his other electrician who taught me a whole lot. Anyway after I got my Masters license I think everyone realized I wasn't farting around at a temporary career change. I work for a different company now and get to do alot more then just electric which suits me fine but I still smile when I think back to how upset my wife used to get that I wasn't out applying for real jobs
Who Dares Wins.Who Dares Wins.
I've always wondered about people who will ask a complete stranger to tell some sort of lie to save THEM money.
Let me get this straight, you want me to lie/cheat/steal so you can cheat your insurance company/you taxes/or who knows? And in exchange for that I get some miniscule job out of the deal?
Sounds good to me, where do I sign up?
Joe H
you ought to call this guy back and tell him the same thing you point out above. this guy has got audacity if nothing else, and needs a dope slap... my 2¢
Gentlemen,
I wish that I could report that this is an isolated occurence----but it is all to common.
the sad truth is that I will receive 2or3 of these EXACT same calls each week----plus several other calls from landlords or realtors etc. that leave me equally incredulous. It's a dailey thing.
I try to return all the calls----and I used to politely try to give them the " dope slap" ( love that term ,bear).It's too much of a time waster.Each one of these calls that I recieve and return STEALS a minimum of 2-3 minutes from me----add in the dope slap and I have wasted another 5-10 minutes,plus I then have someone who is p.o'd and telling everyone they know what an azz I am.
( now--it's true, I probably am an azz----but I try to usually keep my azz-holiness less publicly discussed)
So---I generally call back the "homeowners", and hope I get an answering machine so I can give a short,polite message.( really most of the homeowners in this situation are simply ignorant of what they have really asked me to do----no need to be rude or nasty)Realtors and landlords however do not get called back----they knew they were trying to pull a fast one on me in the first place and so do not merit the slightest polite consideration.
after the typing the reply i realized the time to wasted time ratio wouldnt be an efficient way to spend that precious time after 10 hours at work and another 4 hours at least at home wading through the nonsense . i still agaw at somepeople's lack of respect for people in the construction industry , and how our we are called on to compromise are professional ethics . " go ask the dowdy construction fella . he'll do anything for a dollar". kind of attitude, the release and satisfaction to hear or see that just once whether it be me or you or someone else .would give this "dowdy construction fella" a little satisfaction. but alas......bear
bear
And that takes us back to the thread about the home owner with four bathrooms and sorta scolding the contractor for being late for a FREE estimate...
where I had said that he'd never have done that to his doctor after waiting an hour in the waiting room and paying for a diagnosis.
We're just smelly dirty little men with the intelligence of a pinhead....lol.
PS..stop by sometime, you wont recognize this place. Concrete's being done this week by the guy "you found me : ) "
PSS...If you ever need an excavation guy I found a "great" one!
Be well
andy
In his first interview since the stroke, Ram Dass, 66, spoke with great difficulty about how his brush with death has changed his ideas about aging, and how the recent loss of two old friends, Timothy Leary and Allen Ginsberg, has convinced him that now, more than ever, is the time to ``Be Here Now.''
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Edited 8/17/2003 8:37:52 AM ET by Andy Clifford(Andybuildz)
hey andy mean to stop by or even call but this spring/summer been real busy hope things are well......b
I'm laughing at this thread about why contractors are in no hurry to call certain callers back. Why? Because I was one of them and now I'm terribly ashamed of it (though it honestly was done out of pure ignorance). And while I"m laughing at this thread, I"m also feeling more ashamed now that I know what most contractors think about such calls.
I used to be just a Joe Blo homeowner. Still am, but I decided to make my cut in the contracting/remodeling biz. But prior to that...I bought a house that was in bad need of repair plaster-wise. So bad the bank wouldn't give the money. But I wantd the house. I found a drywaller and told him up front that I needed an estimate purely for the bank purposes of how much it'd take to get the house in good enough condition dyrwall-wise to satisfy the bank. I told him up front that I and a group of guys were doing the work, but the bank wanted an actual contractor estimate...of course it was a free estimate.
Well time went on never heard from him. Finally it got down to the wire and the bank was demanding the estimate or no deal on proceeding with processing it thru. They also required the appraiser to inspect that the work was done. Of course we were doing the work, but for whatever reason the bank needed that "official" estimate on file. So I called the guy, never returned my calls. Finally I got p.o'd and told him that he came over and looked at my property and at least conceded to giving me an estimate in the face of knowing I was doing the work myself and he owed it. He coughed it up at the last minute and I got the house.
But for shame of me, I honestly DIDN'T know what I was asking for. Ijust figured it was nothing to him to come by, take a 5 sec looksee, cut me a preprinted form with some dollars on it and voila....all is happy. Maybe he came over hoping I'd give him the job, and changed his mind, I dunno. But I was one of those "dopes" who hadn't a clue. TodayI know better. Being in the biz myself, if I smell the slightest fishiness, I run. I was burned a year ago by a guy, I smelled "money strapped" but gave him the benefit of the doubt being a small job. I bought his sob story about the prior contractor breaking his wrist and unable to finish the job and if I did a good job he owned a lot of rental properties he'd throw my way to keep me busy. Being a SUCKER (!!!!! hey,I learned my lesson ok) I offered to do it with nothing down just to sweeten it and ensure I'd get the job so I could "prove" myself to him and then collect my money on completion. He looked at the completed job and called me to tell me it was the best damn work he'd seen. But...I Did the work, free, cuz I never to this day seen a penny of what he owed. I HATE CROOKS!!!!!
Pyrotechie,
I want to thank you for your response. The homeowner you once were---is the reason I started this.
ultimately---I don't hold it against the average homeowner because they simply don't know what they are REALLY doing. From their perspective they are being quite reasonable.that doesn't mean I have to accomodate them at my expense.
If I prepare 10 proposals and make the accompanying 10 sales presentations without getting a deal closed---it's my fault. not the prospects. and if I get shot down 10 times I know I had better make some adjustments to my sales methods.the market place has given me a clear signal
It's the same thing for the homeowners complaining no body will return their calls.the market place is sending a clear signal.See---when a homeowner initially calls a contractor the HOMEOWNER is the one making the sales call.the Homeowner is trying to sell the contractor on the idea of taking on his project.Later of course the roles are reversed---but initially it's the homeowner trying to sell the contractor on the idea of their project.
so if 10 contractors won't call you back----it's not the contractors fault---it's the homeowner. chances are the homeowner shot himself in the foot during that initial sales call.but the homeowner didn't even realize he was even making a sales call.
Just a couple of thoughts on this...
"this is Mark Johnson, you can reach me at 330-223-4567. I am buying a house, it's a FHA deal and I need to have the roof certified.” Personally, I don’t see a real problem with this introduction. But what do I know... The customer is the one leaving a message on an answering machine...
“I know the roof needs replaced and I will be doing it myself later this year, or next spring at the earliest.” Fine... the house has been or at least the roof has been either neglected or its time to replace. I did not see the age of the house mentioned although I can appreciate your opinion of an FHA house.
“In the meantime I need to have the roof certified that it is going to last at least 2 years in order for the loan to go through.” This is fine... it’s a requirement. I do not see anything unlawful at this point. Just stating the fact in order for the loan to go through the roof needs at least two years of life. I fail to see where anybody is asking anybody to lie!
“I need to know if you do FHA certifications and if you charge for that.” Was not the homeowner inquiring about a FHA form sighting the inspection and your validation? Yes Sir, I do charge for that. For roof inspections, I normally charge 100-200+ (whatever) depending on the square footage. If your roof falls short of the 2 year requirement, I would be happy to provide you details on what could be done to meet this obligation. I will also charge a $20 fee for the FHA certification.
“I would appreciate a call back." No problem, cause you may decide in 2 years that your too busy at work to re-roofing the house yourself and give me a call!!!
Lastly, I would believe if you did not want the work that a reference to a building inspector would do the trick and you still might just get that call for replacing the roof.
Not looking for an argument just more of an understanding.
Again, it’s just a thought...
LeeSorenson
Dealing with the public can be trying under the best of circumstances... If it was easy, who would flip the burgers???
No disrespect intended...
Lee,
1)the immediate mention of FHA tells me a lot in a hurry.And the immediate mention of a FHA cert. tells me that the roof is in horrible shape. How do I know this?I have never,ever ,ever,ever EVER been asked to provide a FHA cert for a good roof.In practice they are not required for a roof in reasonable good shape----only the roofs with obvious problems.
2) Caller already knows the roof needs replaced----and that I WILL NOT BE DOING THE WORK.----seems self explanatory ----what's my motivation here?I am in the roofing business and the caller has boldly announced his intention to cut me out of the re-roofing process.
3) Here is the big point Lee.The caller and I already know that the roof is bad----but he is asking me to certify what we already know is BAD. Sure he wants his loan to go through----but that's not my problem---it's HIS problem.
If however I certify his roof----a roof we already know is bad---remember he told me so himself-----then that roof becomes MY problem. Once I certify it, I am liable for it for 2 years and have to correct the defects AT MY EXPENSE !
Sure the caller would like me to certify his admidtedly defective roof---but why would I? He is trying to buy life insurance for a patient he has already told me is on it's deathbed.
4)note the caller doesn't ask WHAT I charge for a FHA cert.----he is asking IF i charge.----------So, in short the caller announces that he a)has no money,b)has a roof in disasterous shape,c)has no intention of ever hiring my company to replace his nightmare roof,d)wants me to assume the liability for his admitedly defective roof for a period of 2 years,e) actually thinks there might be a chance that I would be happy to do this FOR FREE!
5)Lee at this point I couldn't possibly care less if the caller is gonna eventually punk out and not do the roof himself.
In the last 15 years---having done thousands of roofing projects------exactly ZERO of those roofing projects came from a house that was being bought or sold. homebuyers,homesellers,real estate agents and landlords all want to scam some free service---but to date have never come across with paying jobs after the " favor" has been granted.
SOOOOO there isn't the slightest reason for me EVER to get involved with this guy other than to return the call( as I did) and tell him we don't provide that service and wish him good luck.
Dealing with the public can be trying under the best of circumstances... If it was easy, who would flip the burgers???
LOL!!!
Mike
I love the "do you know someone else cheaper"? line. Made me think of this:
Coupla months ago
Me: Can I help you?
Cust: Do you have a (obscure repair part)?
Me: No, sorry, we primarily sell and stock performance parts and accessories. I could get you one, but I don't stock them.
Cust: Well, do you know who'd have one in stock?
Me: No, I'm sorry.
Cust: *deer in the headlights stare*, do you think ____ parts would have one?
Me: I don't know.
Cust: *stare*You don't know?
Me: No sir, I'm not privy to my competition's inventory.
Cust: *big stare* So, even if you did know, you wouldn't tell me.
Me: No sir, I didn't say that, I just said I don't know. Would you ask Walmart what Target had in stock? Have a nice day.
Mike
Being a HO, this thread is incredibly helpful.
I've always had deep respect for the people who do contract work. I will champion them and recommend them to the end.
Lately, though, with this house, we seem to be having a run of bad luck with finding contractors and I wonder if it is OUR technique.
We have the money to spend, but the house is a mess, so I'm sure that they wonder. I've taken a part-time job so I can specifically be here to play gopher, make lunch and fetch drinks, answer last minute questions that come up and so on. I respect that contractors work weekdays during the day and shouldn't be "expected" to come out in the evening or on weekends. It's up to us to bend to their schedule. We've made "to scale" sketches of the floors here (thanks to Dad the draftsperson, who visited one weekend) of the "current" situation, complete with current electric wiring, runs and outlets. We're doing the same thing for plumbing. That way, the contractor doesn't have to "guess" all around the house and can spot things easily.
We're still having a tough time finding folks though. Especially when they hear about how old the house is, how we have the work planned out in stages, and so forth. I would LOVE to do it all at once, but we are trying to live here at the same time.
Are there other things we could be doing to make ourselves more "contractor friendly"?
We did get one company out to bid on some electric work, but I suspect they bid very high because they are so busy. My favorite electrician used to work for them and he was a gem...everything right, first time. (He moved to FLA) Now they have seperate electricians that just go out and do bidding and the company takes more commercial work than they used to. That may explain the numbers and I don't blame them...if their business model has changed (which we found out about AFTER he was already here), then they have many more mouths to feed. I think the right thing to do would be to call them back and decline the bid officially...but I've never had to decline a bid before! And I don't want to insult them...they are good guys and do good work. How best to gracefully handle that?
I'm not anxious to collect a handful of bids for each stage of the project, we aren't building the Taj Mahal and I don't want to waste the contractors' time. I'd rather get a recommendation of someone who has done good work, have them come out and get an idea of scope, time, materials and scheduling and give me a price--then schedule the work.
In cases where I don't know the contractor and he hasn't been referred by someone I know well, I would love to get references and see past work, but I feel that I would scare contractors away. Or insult them. But I do make sure I talk to current patient's of any doctor I see and it is much easier to just change doctors after one visit if it isn't a "match". With a contractor, I feel that I am committing to something more long term and long lasting.
Any other advice for HO's to make themselves more "appealing" to good contractors?
JMO,
I deal with primarily one specific trade---so guys that are more general contractors could give you better advice---BUT-----
1)are you dis-organised and rambling when you call?
2) is the TV blaring or a baby crying in the background?
3) get somebody out to do ONE specific job and then take it from there. don't waste space on the answering machine telling me all of your hopes and dreams and "maybe eventually " plans for the property.Get one immediate thing taken care of and then work from there.
No baby, no TV :) Very organized but probably giving them more detail than they need about the job. I don't want them to have to waste their time if they aren't interested.
I would LOVE a GC. Long story. See the Chicago Projects thread in Want Ads.
Edited 8/18/2003 2:29:15 PM ET by jmo
>>> 2) is the TV blaring or a baby crying in the background?
What do you have against babies? <sarcasm>
I hated babies crying until I had one. Now it's a fact of life.
remodeler
My opinion only, but I think any reputable professional contractor who is proud of his work will be more than willing to offer references to you upon your request. I know after I do a good job and satisfied a customer I'd later like to ask the customer if they would allow me to use them as a reference. Most will likely do so because they're happy customers.
References, though, should be a SMALL part of the equation in selecting a contractor for any type of major work. After all, any contractor is not going to give you references reflecting negatively on him, they'll only give you the positive ones. But a postive reference is a positive reference nonetheless. Someone felt compelled to want to be a reference for the contractor, so it does say he did a great job and made a satisfied customer. Chances are there are many more where that came from. So positive references do have value....just keep it a small consideration.
To be more contractor friendly, if you called me up I'd love to hear you say something like, "hi, I"m a homeowner and I desire to hire a fine contractor to do the projects I have as part of an overall renovation plan. We are well to do money wise, however, we're not rich and I cannot afford the cost of a huge project all at once, I need to spread it out more. With that in mind I've tried to come up with several phases, made some clear drawings and know how much I can do financial-wise for each phase. However, I'm not rigid with these plans. If you will look at my project site and what my plans look like and feel you see a better way I'd love to hear it. I know that you provide free estimates, but because I'm asking you to look at my drawings, and consider each phase of this project independantly I'd like to give you a few bucks for your time. Would you be interested in taking a look at what I'd like to do?"
This tells me a few things. That you're organized and know what you want and how much you need to spread out the cost. It tells me you're a realist, not trying to bite off more than you can chew. Tells me you're dreaming lofty goals and established a plan to get there. In effect you've eliminated several of my major concerns, chief among which are you an HO with lofty goals and no way of getting there expecting a miracle to happy financial-wise. That you recognize I'm going to have to spend more time looking at your site because you want me to review your drawings and consider how each phase is independant of the other yet ultimately is to blend together, tells me you respect my time and that you're willing to put an investment of a few dollars up front, makes you look more serious, makes it look like you don't expect something for nothing, makes me feel you're happy to pay my fees as I deliver your dreams. I may be a nice guy and refuse the cash. But if it does turn into a good bit more time, that you offered makes it more attractive to me to ask for something , say $50 bucks or something, otherwise I'll feel awkward saying, "I do free estimates, but I put a lot of time into this and would like to collect a modest fee." or something like that.
My opinons only here.
Also a great idea. I'm totally in favor of paying contractors for estimates. I have a marvelous company I'm going to be working with in the spring on masonry. He was really straightforward. He said, "I get a lot of these calls and I like to provide detailed estimates. I'll take digital photos of your site so I can reflect upon them while writing it up. Here is my charge for an estimate, and if I get the bid, that charge will be refunded through the project."
The last part I did not expect, but since I will be doing business with him, I will make sure that he and his crew get great communication, fresh coffee, water and soda all day, the music of their choice and some great lunches. I want to make sure that they enjoy the job and feel like they made a fair wage. Because I will probably use them at sometime in the future again. Clients who treated me that way always got my best work and a little extra because I enjoyed the project with them. Clients who I DIDN'T enjoy usually got referred to someone else when they called back a second time.
His estimate was incredibly detailed. It is really helping me to plan my project. I'm also willing to go to where ever HE is to discuss additional questions to save him travel time.
I'm excited to find all the right contractors, including a great GC, and helping them to help me. Now, I just have to find them! I miss my electrician so much...I know what great work he did and he moved. I'm just not as connected into the contracting world anymore. So, it is a bummer. I'm really having to call folks who are practically strangers and ask, "Have you used a plumber that you liked?" No one else in my circle of pals has bought a home yet. We are breaking new ground, so to speak.
I appreciate your detailed advice and I will use it! Thanks.
I never give references because I dont want my past customers being bothered by calls and questions from strangers. I wouldnt even ask if its ok with them. Most of my new customers already have gotten a referral from someone anyway. It has never caused a problem for me.
Again, you guys have been INCREDIBLY helpful.
I got a lead on an electrician. He came by this morning. I had already taken the front off of the breaker box for easy access, had a flashlight on hand and a ladder set up for the attic.
It is outrageously hot out, so first thing in the door, I just hand him a glass of lemonade. We sit down and I show him a concise list of three stages of the project...one for fall, one for this winter and one for spring. I explained that we put this list together understanding that he was the professional and might tell us if we needed to add/reorder anything to make the work flow more easily.
Next, we took the walking tour and I asked him what he wanted to see first, second and so on. When he needed the flashlight, I handed it over quietly. When he needed to get into the attic, there was the ladder. At the end, we sat down with the list again, he made a few suggestions and changes. We talked about the fact that a GC will be working on the project beginning in the winter, but we work with him to make sure that he will not be unhappy that we already have an electrician and a plumber (because we had to have some of this work done early).
I didn't need a reference because I saw some of his work in progress at a good friend's house a few evenings before. So I didn't need to ask. (The reference thing is a hard one for me to give up if I didn't get the name from a friend...none of our friends in Chicago have had work done on the scale that we are doing it. And if I don't know the work, but have to live with it for 30 years, yikes...that's a tough one. I'll even take photos of old work or stories about problems they've solved if they don't want me to call old customers.)
At the end of the time, I asked him if he could recommend a plumber. One who was a craftsman, as I knew he was from the work I saw. He nodded slowly and asked about a few of the plumbing project issues. I told him to mention it to his friend and if his friend was interested, to please pass along my number.
I wanted to pay him for the estimate but he wouldn't take it.
We had a very nice meeting talking about some of the challenges of the house. NOW! To nail down the specifics of the the upstairs remodel specs for the carpentry and plumbing pieces with the DH so we can put it in front of a GC. I want to make sure we have thought through some of the details, options and our priorities so we don't have disagreement and hold him up and so that he has enough information to be able to submit a bid without us having to say, "um, we haven't talked about it..."
You all have helped SO MUCH! I am totally looking forward to the team being in the house and making them lunch and cookies... :)
Good homeowner. That attitude will pay handsome dividends. Even a hack will do his best work in your house.
Go forth and multiply.Tom
JMO,
If you like this sparky why don't you ask him about local GC's that are good. Good subs look out for good GC's. The subs that work for a variety of contractors see everything. Not saying it wouldn't go sideways but at least you've got a good start.
Absolutely great idea...
LUNCH, COOKIES, LEMONADE!! Don't start to fast, we may be able to help you from here. I am sure that some of us would gladly work for those kind of wages<G>. Carry on, sounds like you are headed towards a very happy home, but keep in mind that there are going to be bumps in the road ahead, try to not get over indulged in the little stuff. To ease your mind at least a little, the odds say you won't likely be in the home for anywhere near thirty years, so you will probably get to do this acouple more times, have fun.
Dan
Dan :) This neighborhood is a wacky one, in kind of a cool way. My husband's great great grandfather lived here. Great grandfather and father lived up the road. Parents are back here and we came here.
Most of the houses are populated with "lifers" or the children of lifers who have taken over their parent's house in some way.
I think it is due to the fact that our church's global headquarters are across the road and its seminary and university are up the street. Even if a family moves away, they are likely to rent out their house to another family until they return.
Strange, eh?
I've had decent luck using Service Magic, which is an online referral group. They've given me a three matches, who contact me promptly, and usually there's at least one who's interested in coming out to estimate. I make sure that I tell them that I'm interested in getting the work done right away and I also tell them how many other people I have coming to bid.
http://www.servicemagic.com.
What sort of approach would you recommend a HO taking when they know nothing of the subject? They are all weary of calling someone they have never worked with and saying, "Please come work on my house. I'll pay you and hope to not get ripped off." I got bids for my roof ranging from $3500 (with gutters) to $18,000 for 30yr asphalt on my 11sq roof (no gutters). I felt like little-red-homeowner.... "This one's too fly-by-night. This one's too rip-me-off...."
Second worse, in my book, is having someone I have never met before treat me like I am a clear fool for not knowing everything, or anything, about his/her profession. I appreciate the good humor that y'all seem to take and calling back shows integrity.
I'd suggest doing just what you're doing now. Gather more info. That's why these guys are here. We want to help. Just have thick skin and keep refining your question if we don't understand it or you don't understand the advise. Oh yeah, by the way, that's Goldilocks, not little red..................
Cledwyn,
I see and hear your points. One of the things I'd recommend is that you NOT mention you've called a number of contractors or suggest in any way that you have. The worst thing I want to hear from a HO is that they're frustrated trying to find someone to work on their project(s). To me it's a red flag, either A) It's a messed up job with a lot of headaches, B) you're looking for a really low price and could care less who it is as long as you get your price, or C) it may suggest you are one of those PITA customers (Pain In The A**) who comes across as a nice guy on the phone, but show your colors when meeting.
Personally I wish yoiu were in my area. I'd love to look at your project ideas. For me one thing I HATE HATE HATE is contractors who are impersonal, impolite, stuck up, act towards the HO in a belittling way, etc. That's the very reason I got into this biz, to treat others how I know I always wanted to be treated as Joe Blo HO. There are a lot of contractors I determined to never call again. I recall times when I was interested in how to solder copper and so I watched the plumber hook up the heater and he copped some attitude like "geez, man, get outta here." I wasn't be intrusive, or bugging with questions, just learning. I have found there are two types of contractors (subs or GCs), the fine professional ones who give a damn and want to work with you to realize your project(s) and see you as a customer who has potential to give more work to you , and those that just want to do the work and not truly enjoy the career they chose and make sure HO's know it, they're just making a living, in the rut, not taking time to enjoy the very reasons they went into biz.
If you were to call me I wouldn't want to hear all your lofty plans and goals.....AT FIRST. Rather, tell me how you found me (so I can plug the call in the right marketing bucket for my business model), what you're ready to do NOW, and that you would like a fine contractor to provide an estimate. this tells me you're not looking to pay a lowball price, the "fine contractor" phrase tells me you're looking for quality work and that you have an opinion of a fine contractor which I happen to believe I fit the definition of, you've caught my interest there. When I arrive on site to view your project you can then mention the fact that this is part of a bigger renovation goal and you want someone to hear your overall goals so as to be sure the CURRENT plan you brought me there for doesn't interfere with your larger vision. In so doing, tell me yoiu're prepared to start right away but that you respect that I have other jobs going and know you will likely have to wait but would appreciate a good guess-timate timeframe when I could start. Then we can discuss the overall goals. At that point I may be saying to myself "I'd like to do this large project in the small phases you need" and so I"ll likely give you a bid that will be a little lower if I want the job. I still have to make money, but I'm going to bank on your giving me more of the pie later because I will inflate my price a little more after i have shown you a good quality job knowing full well that statistically you're going to give me the work after you've been pleased with me and feel there is no need to shop around again and that I'm worth the extra bucks. Now I have established a reputation with you, you've demonstrated your satisfaction with my work, everyone is happy, and you'll probably tell some friends and neighbors what a great deal and great price you got and never felt belittled, or stupid.
Long answer I know, but Iwanted to be sure you got the jist of how I view it. If I see your lofty goals but am not interested, I'll find a polite way to say I'm willing to do the job you called me out for, but that I would prefer you find someone else for the other as it is not something I care to take on.
Good, calm approach, I like it. I do have one refinement on the question though. I don't want to waste anyone's time, and I don't want to pay for shoddy work. I am perfectly happy to wait or to jump on a game-plan immediately... IF I have some idea before hand what I am getting into. Recent example: I am remodeling my first floor. Doing most of the work myself, taking my time, doing it right, or trying to. As with JMO, I am very happy to pay an expert for their time to give me an estimate. I am planning out months in advance the order of work that needs to be done according to availability of my time and my money. I need to know what it would cost to move the power coming into the house. I called the local electrician and one of the first questions was "can do it next week?" without as much of a rough guestimate of cost. NO, of course not, I don't know if it is going to cost $500 or $5000. I, unlike most debt laden Americans, like to budget out for such things, have the cash on hand, plus an additional 75-100% for unforeseen additions to the project.
I like the two types of contractors.... can I ask initially what sort of person the contractor is? "HI, I am in the process of a remodeling project and I am just wondering, are you a fine professional who gives a damn, or in a rut in life and just making a living and will glower at me if I ask any questions along the way?" :->
Seriously though, I would LOVE to be in the position as a homeowner to call a quality contractor with a well laid out plan, cash in the bank and a flexible schedule. But, if I have never done a project of the sorts, where would I even start to learn about what I need to learn about to make an informed plan of action?
I think it really comes down to integrity. I want to be treated with it and I want to treat those I deal with the same. I think it lacks integrity to start a project and not be able to pay in full at any point in the process. I think it lacks integrity to write off a potential customer and not call them back, or not give them a clue as to why they are not worth your time. I think it lacks integrity for all these stories of people who get treated like lower class citizens while working on someone's home (the hose is out back). It shows integrity to respect other's time as valuable as your own, be it offering to pay for an estimate, or to be on time when stopping by a house in the middle of the day when a HO has to take off work to meet you.
I think it is also a good idea to let the HO know if you are a small company or a large one and that you have to take time off your job to come talk to them. Or if you are like the one roofing salesman who pulled up in his gold-rimmed town car, Hawaiian shirt, and gold medallions, who obviously was just a $ale$man for his enormous roofing company.
Sorry for the long thought train. Love the advice, and the thoughtful conversation.
I was actually in that guys shoes three years ago. But, I had a much different approach. I had the Bank write up in the contract that the roof needed to be replaced by Myself or someone else within six months and supply receipts and wages would have to be sent on paper. My company (the two of us) will do roofs, but we usually are only working on the most expensive fancy cut up roofs that the other contractors would not even call back on. So when six months came around I got up there (easy roof) and calculated how long it would take me to do it, About 13,000. Then I got a bid from the local roof contractor that we use when we don't want to touch it, about 9,000. So I let them do it the roof itself looks great, but they ruined all of my half round gutters. When I look back I wish I had done it and spent the extra money on a metal roof instead of 30 year shingles, and I really wish I still had my perfectly good gutters.
Jason
Cledwyn,
I think your comments regaurding integrity are excellent.The only problem I see is that different people have different concepts of integrity.
for example---my personal definition of integrity has been fullfilled, when as in my original post, I called back the "prospective customer"----told him we wouldn't provide that service and wished him good luck with his project.I don't think integrity requires me to "clue him in" as to why I refuse his request to engage in probably illegal behavior.I don't have to spend 10 or 15 minutes educating him for free on what an outrageous thing he has proposed----decency only requires me to say---"uh,no thanks"
just like the homeowner that gets 3 or 4 estimates ,selects 1 and proceeds with the work. It would be nice if the homeowner called the 3 contractors NOT selected,and informed them that someone else had the project. BUT---I don't think the homeowner shows any particular"integrity" if they inform the 3 contractors WHY they were rejected( BO,wrong model truck,10 minutes late to initial appointment,to expensive,to cheap,un-attractive presentation---whatever)
As I said, calling back shows integrity. Bravo for having that as a policy. I always call back anyone who has come out to my house to consult or offer a bid. Usually I will tell them why I did not go with them at that time. Including the sleazy salesman who I told the scheduler "That guy was a sleaze and I would never hire a company who had him representing them."
You have a good point that it is not your responsibility to explain your reasons for turning down an inquiry for whatever reason suits you. I guess I wish there was a magic CLUE wand that people could wave. Or maybe a service line where you could report clueless people and they would get a citation in the mail including easy steps to remedy the cluelessness.
"Or maybe a service line where you could report clueless people and they would get a citation in the mail including easy steps to remedy the cluelessness."
There's a big chunk of a great business plan! How much would you pay to report someone??
Rich Beckman
Time to dump the federal Dept. of Education
If you were not planning to hire anyone to do the work, the least you could do is to insist on paying for a real estimate.
On a house where the contractor went bankrupt, the HO's lawyer needed a documented estimate of cost to finish the house. Hired a contractor to prepare the report, with the explicit knowledge that he, or any contractor, may not be hired to do the job. But acknowledging that his time and expertise were valuable, and that was what was wanted, the preparing of the estimate was paid for.
6. falsifying government documents.
7. Defrauding the federal government.
Is not something most people want to.
Do you want to play A felony or not a felony?
I also love it when somebody asks me if I do electrical work (even though they know I'm not an electrician) -- because they have something small that needs done and they don't want to "pay full price".
Or when the potential customer starts talking about how much of the work they will do, so "how much of a price break can we get for that"?
And the most recent reason -- someone wanted a bid on a complete bathroom rebuild. The floor was soaked and rotted, the walls were almost as bad. Their specifications were very limited and unfancy, so I was able to bid VERY low. This was the smallest possible number I've ever heard for a complete bath in the past decade.
They called to say that my price was just way too high -- wasn't there somebody else that I knew.........
I love when they start off looking for a low price on there time frame and as the job goes on they want high quality. The thing is if you charge a low ball price or a high end price they still want a high quality job. So in the long run your better off charging high end prices because they all want high quality.
You made a good example of why contractors dont come back or call back. I wrote a post explaining that after a while we learn to read and screen over the phone. We get several calls a night to several a week over many years and I dont think the callers evaluate that or what they say. Good post.
Tim Mooney
If only, all this info was mandatory reading for HO's. I'm smiling, big smile, for I get phone calls often, from HO, who complain to me, about the other guy not calling them back. Often times, I feel like some therapist, " Hmmm, ahh, yep, Oh, about two or three months, I'll be happy to put you on my list, remember now, for me, things always take longer and cost more than most people think, so you gonna have to be patient. No, I really don't know who to reccommend, Oh, you want it done in two weeks, aheemmm, thanks for calling, for that will not work for me." You all be Safe out there Jim J