Why would anyone pick this profession?
After reading many of these discussions about the economy slowing down, more compitition in price bidding, cheaper labor, higher material prices and so on… why would anyone pick this profession? Well here’s my take on the subject.
My first introduction to carpentry and construction was at a young age with my dad and his construction company. I can remember being on the site on a cold winter day pounding the ice and snow off the lumber piles. But I can’t say the cold is what I really remember but the enjoyment I had sitting with the men at lunch and listening to their stories and jokes. Yes, I bet they were cold but they seemed to have this warm glowing spirit… I think mostly because of the pride they had in their work and respect for one another. I hear stories about how they only were paid 50 cent an hour back then but they seemed happy.
As time past and I witnessed more of my dad and his crew’s work I began to appreciate and admire the skills of a craftsmen. These guys could have selected any other job but no… the’re carpenters. But why? It wasn’t for the money. I know it wasn’t for the great working conditions either.
I guess they did it because they loved doing it. Maybe its an obsession, I don’t know. So I ask you why? Why do you do it? And I don’t mean only professionals… there are many individuals here from the extremely experienced to the new beginner. But we’re all here… sharing and learning.
I may not know exactly why I’ve chosen this profession but I will continue to learn and develop. I may not make big wages but I’m thinking its not always about the money.
So why did you pick this profession?
Replies
I had to find something after Enron.
>> I had to find something after Enron.Seriously? I'd be interested to hear your story.
It's the only thing I've ever loved to do that also doubled as a source of income.
That's the short answer anyway. I love framing houses. The sense of accomplishment, the tangible results, the hard physical labor coupled with brain teaser rooflines, working outside, the endless learning curve, the constant change of scenery, the clean slate of a new job, the comraderie of a good crew, maybe even the inherent danger to some extent too.
There's a lot to love about being a carpenter. Sure there's some downsides that we all B&M about, but I'm a firm believer that the grass is seldom truly greener on the other side.
Being a carpenter isn't just my job.... it's who I am. It keeps me happy.
Being a carpenter (''is who I am, it keeps me happy'') That about says it all. I agree. I also like the friends ive made over the years. I do cabinet work and fellow tradesman will stop by the shop at times.We'll BS a little, eat some good Italian meats and cheeses, a little vino (after work of course), bs a little more too. I just love this friggen work. I would eat it for lunch if I could.
Keep lovin it, Lou
Loucarabasi, did you say meats and cheeses? this brings me to my story, moons ago I had Italian relatives who were in the window cleaning and garbage collection business. They loved their profession and had some serious fun. I had some good opportunities to follow in these guys footsteps. Nope, wanted to go to college .To make a long story short both of these guys died very rich.
Love what you do and have enthusiasm..money will follow. stinky
--"I had Italian relatives who were in the window cleaning and garbage collection business. They loved their profession and had some serious fun."I once watched a guy wash windows for tips...like a sidewalk musician. He was fantastic at washing windows--it was so amazing and entertaining people were throwing money into his hat--you had to see it to believe it.On the original topic of building/carpentry:I love what I do.I have worked in several fields (Forestry, Environmental Chemistry, Teaching) that kept me in the office, lab or classroom too much. I am too kinetic to have a sedintary occupation.I have to be in motion. Carpentry work keeps my mind and body both involved in perfect synergy.I love creating, problem solving, producing work that impresses anyone keen enough to know what they are looking at.I have bad days like anyone, but then I find myself doing something inspired and know I'm doing exactly what I'm supposed to.
Lou, come to the fest and bring a tray.
thanks.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
dieselpig,
Let me tell you why people shouldn't be carpenters! Because there is almost no natural selection process.. If you want to do it, you can!
Oh you may not get good at it and you may not get fast at it but show up at a work site and ask and you will sooner or later you get hired.. Do it long enough and you have experiance.
Since there is no standard, nobody knows how good they are.. Are you good if you can pull the trigger on your nail gun faster than others in your crew? are you good because you can read a blueprint? Are you good because you use a level or speed square to determine how straight stuff is?
Is the standard to pass a building inspectors check? Is it that you build complex homes? How fast? To what degree of perfection?
There is no olympics of home building, no nation wide test for perfection or speed..
We're good because we declare we are and nothing more!
Virtualy any other profession has a selection process.. Doctors for example, simply to get selected to be a doctor requires a great deal of study and effort many don't make the grade.. (and become chiropractors <G>) In school many can't hack it and fail, once the study portion is over the internship occurs, and sopme are selected out. In spite of that, inspite of testing selecting and carefull monitering look at all of the needless deaths that occur due to malpractice..
Carpenters have no testing or selection process and just go out and do it..
Is it any wonder that the average home in America is 56 years old before it is demolished or so completely remodeled it may as well been demolished? Wood that may have come from trees a thousand years old or older is tossed into the dumpster or landfill.
To those who design homes.. Why is todays house so similar to homes built in the twenties? Studs are inefficent! If ICF's/ SIP's were universally accepted wouldn't the nation use less energy? Are stick built houses still being built because we know how to do it quickly or because that is the best, least expensive, way to build?
We're good because we declare we are and nothing more!
I don't agree with this statement Frenchy. The other stuff about bldg material and technique may fly, but not the above.
A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
calvin,
OK I'll be corrected (although in my 15 years with the industry I have never seen a valid reason to be) explain to me what degrees and standards you've conformed to..
Please don't indicate a contractors license.. That serves only as the minimum entry level. IT does not raise the bar or standard.. (the fact that some survive without even a contractors license should give you plenty of pause)
Frenchy, I suppose the fact that others think I'm good is not enough reason for you. You want something more than a Journeymans card I bet. Well, does 34 yrs with no more than 3 runs of a business card and referral only count for something? Does working still for many of my initial customers add to it? Would an inspectors note on a final that he would like to inspect my work anytime because it is a pleasure to go to a site and be able to pass somebody that doesn't try to pull something over. Would a rough inspection on mall work passed over the phone because of reputation help? Other than telling you my work is first rate and fair priced I guess I see your point. Association memberships, plaques on the wall, letters of appreciation etc mean nothing because they could be tainted by something.
Using your example, what makes a good doctor? Certainly not his diploma, tho that helps even the playing field.
Hell, I even forget the initial post I disagreed with you on. A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
calvin,
Please reread the post, I didn't claim that you were a poor builder did I? I simply suggested that poor builders exist.. that there is no selection process..
Thirty four years, congradulations,, that makes you both durable and fiscally responsible..
your comments mean that you do acceptable work.. (I really admire the referals only way to make a living)..
Here's the basic question another way..
Would you make the final four or even go all the way?
Could you win the Indy 500 of your profession?
Would you be dancing after the world series of your profession?
Every doctor gets a rating,, thru the selection process the great ones wind up at Johns Hopkins or the Mayo Clinic.. somebody has to finish last in their class
However would you ever consider having surgery done by a drop out?
Around here anyway I meant to infer I do exceptional work. My jobs are on time-everytime. No waiting because somebody didn't show up. Even with this bum knee injury, the job is on schedule. Lucky me, the carpentry was done hours b/4 the knee went south. So not acceptable, exceptional. For a one man company I usually out produce the big boys.
Final four? I'm smaller than George Mason.
So, could a small town guy win the series? I'm from Cleveland Frenchy, there's always next year.
Indy? sure, there could be a crash.
If getting surgery I would hope I would get one with the same dedication and work ethic I try to have. Probably stand as good a chance as any.
thanks.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
I did reread it. I got the impression that you thought no cream could rise to the top of our profession. That being as there's no test but long term success, we all were in the same boat.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
calvin
I said there was no natural selection process.. I'm sure you know guys in your town who have been doing it for a long, long time and yet still do poor work don't you?
Guys who short cut it, or are late or whatever..
Do you have a degree after your name?
Calvin DCA (dedicated carpenter of America) <G>
That there can be hacks who are in the trades should offend you.. It lowers your wages.. it increases the risks due to a narrow margin because of the newbies who undermine the pros..
Here's the really wierd thing.. I will grant that a degree is no promise of success, nor is years of experiance.. nor is obtaining a inspectors certificate , owners but what do they know?
I visit thosands of new homes every year.. You'd be amazed at the really expensive homes where the rafters are cut wrong or the gaps in trim that are filled with putty.. You would be shocked at some of the floors I walk on that not only aren't level but are also bouncy.
Where a plumb bob is an inch out of plumb on a wall, or no two windows line up!
Yet I see fine homes built all of the time
Perfect trim work, plumb, level, and true.. walls that are sweet and fine! a sensitive treatment of materials and colors..
Where the fine hand of a craftsman screams quality and taste..
Now I really am confused.
Sure I know there's bogus. And I know there's pretty good. I sure know there's good. And then there's better and best. But what I'm not sure of is where that puts me and what you mean now. I swear I disagreed when I understood you to say that we were all so so due to the fact we didn't win a contest because there wasn't a contest to enter. I'm thinking like jeff (god help me) that we take the test every day. Constant marks on our report card. Wish I still got free tickets to a ball game for straight A's...................wait a minute. I do! Cool.
That's all I know. Either you can't tell it or I can't understand it. Anyway, thanks for the discourse. (see, back to normal Jeff).A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Calvin
I think you're hitting it!
Good, better, best.
Note that there isn't terrible or just OK.
But we can't all be above average can we?
Imagine if you were 18 years old again and just starting out.. You go to work for a guy and in a while you actually are better than his best..
Are you the best? or just better than him?
Was he the best?
Best How?
what standard?
No it's not competition but yet in a sense it is..
Frank Lloyd Write. Kinda hard to mention his name without acknowledging his greatness and yet his homes often leaked and failed in many respects as homes..
Maybe greatness is too high a standard in construction?
Either I'm on hallucinigens or you stopped making sense sometime around your 4th post. I'm sorry, but I can't even tell what you're talking about anymore man.
Later.View Image
spoken like a man whoi has never been through the selection process there, frenchy.Sounds like a book, "How to please a woman" written by a homosexual
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
SNORK! You owe me a keyboard!
Frenchy's a forklift salesman that's building his own house over the last twenty and through the next twenty. Take what he says one the subject with a grain of salt.
I like big butts and I can not lie.
Piffan,
With my 15 years I haven't ever seen a selection process. The fact that you can survive economically fails to say anything about your superiority.
What I'm looking for is some sort of competition or excellence testing.. something where your ability to perform is at risk..
Now mind you, some people really are excellent builders.. and there are hacks out there.. however I'm certain you've seen long time hack builders and just poor performers who remain in the industry for years and years..
This may be off the subject , but since you brought it up,...
I suspect a woman could teach a man a great deal about how to make love to a woman.. even if that woman was a homosexual..
Frenchy,
With all due respect, you're talking out your azz again.
So what extensive certification and training process did you go through to sell heavy equipment? The guy who sold me my forklift was as dumb as a box of hammers.... and thats about as smart as he needed to be to sell me a forklift. I needed one, he had access to them, and the deal was done. So should I take this limited experience of mine with forklift salesmen and conclude that you too, are as dumb as a box of hammers?
Guys who are truly carpenters don't need you to tell them what they are. And they know another one when they see one. And the guys perpetrating the fraud also know that they are NOT carpenters..... and they ain't foolin' us either.
Careful what you say now Frenchy. You're pretty close to shi5tin' where you eat.View Image
I think I can understand where Frenchy is coming from... I think. Here in Nova Scotia we have designated trades (electricians, plumbers, bricklayers etc.). Only individuals with papers in these designated trades can perform these trades. For an example only a journey electrician with papers can get an electrical permit. Therefore, the guy who doesn't have his electrical papers who works for cash can't get a permit. This protects the electricians and keeps the rates up.
Unfortunately carpentry is not a designated trade. Yes, I will need four years to complete my journeymen papers for carpentry but anyone else can say the're a carpenter who doesn't have the tanning or experience.
Now, I will say there many damn good carpenters without papers. Actually, I know of some pretty bad carpenters with papers. (I also know some pretty bad doctors too). I guess there's bad individuals in all jobs.
I gave this story in another thread but I think it works well here too. I was working at a house we are building when a friend of the owner arrived. I knew we was a carpenter and we began discussing how tuff it is to make a living with the higher gas prices. I said how its frustrating when the homeowners can't understand why a carpenter would charge as much as some other professions.
He tells me he charges $20/HR. Pretty much sums it all up right there!
Dieselpig,
Thank you for making my case for me.. Just like in my industry there are fly by nighters in your industry. Guys who jump in for the quick buck or do things when they aren't experienced enough or quantified.. The average professional salesman lasts less than 5 years.. 99 out of 100 fail within those 5 years.. (don't make the mistake of counting clerks as salespeople)
I started selling forklifts 15 years ago, long before they were accepted in the construction industry except a few forward thinking masons.. I've attended schools and received awards for superior knowledge from four different manufactures. My personal brag book has a teaching certificate and commendations for 3 different brands..
Here in Minnesota I don't know of anyone who has a similar track record. Darn few salesmen have the same level of experience and none to my knowledge have received the level of training I have..
I'm certain that you've seen some builders with those sorts of degrees and experience who produce really fine homes.. I'm also certain that you've seen the guys who cause you to shake your head.
How about yourself?
I'll assume that you consider yourself a superior builder (You read this magazine and that's a great hint) and you sound as if you have experience.. Have you ever been in any sort of competition where your ability to build is on the line?
Every building inspector I've ever seen will give a builder a chance to repair a mistake in construction so the inspector isn't the judge, all he wants to see is whatever the minimum is.. Builders who exceed the minimums don't get a superior rating..
Owners are often ignorant or poor judges of quality or performance.. (They do understand second grade math well so the cost is a critical factor)
Your example of dealing with a poor salesman is exactly the sort of thing that should be eliminated. (don't answer, how much did you research different brand forklifts before buying your brand? Did it come down to second grade math or were you more sophisticated then that? Does your forklift have variable displacement hydraulics? How about a RAS system?
What size tires does your forklift have? What if anything are they filled with?
If you dealt with me, you'd know and why. I can calculate the cost of virtually every forklift made and what it should have cost based on equipment and age,, I'd also explain your financing options (about 30 differant ones that I can name off the top of my head) and the tax consquences of each..
80% of my business is either repeats or referals. I've sold serveral companies forklifts from several differant brands.. The reason is they want to buy from me because they know that My first concern is them..
That makes me a credible salesman not a superior one.. Selling nearly a 1000 forklifts makes me a productive salesman not a superior one.. Making a living for the past 15 years in a extremely competitive industry makes me a durable salesman not a superior one..
What makes me a superior one is knowing to a boring level information regarding all brands of forklifts and how it impacts builders. While providing the rest of the stuff someone needs to make a good selection.. (and yes I suggest brands other than the ones I sell all of the time)
To me a home builder who claims superiority should have at least that degree of knowledge and skill..
1/4 inch shouldn't be the tolerance because in the wrong location a 1/4 inch is way too much.. nail schedules etc. are minimums not something to be strived for, plumb level and true is just the entry level..
"Have you ever been in any sort of competition where your ability to build is on the line?"
I killed a guy with my nail gun once in a shoot out ... does that count?
The fact U actually asked such a stupid question shows you have no clue ... Ever been in a competition? ....
Uh ... yeah ... it's called ... working as a self-employeed carpenter/contractor!
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Jeff,
You miss my point!
Let me try again
If you've made a living for a while congradulations.. however that does not mean you are the best or top rated. it means that you made fiscally correct decisions. (it also doesn't mean that you aren't the best or top rated)
The fact is some much poorer carpenters have been able to survive as well..
Some hacks and slide by artists weaken your value and the price you are able to command for your work..
To the average homeowner who builds one or two homes in his lifetime How is he to judge?
Generations from now we'll be able to look at your work and determine if you are really one of the great ones or mearly somebody who got by..
untill then we won't know will we?
So how is sales different from carpentry?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Jon,
In sales one in a hundred can make his living selling for 5 years.. equipment sales it's even lower! I know clerks who survive that long, yet those of us who sell for a career know how few reach retirement age in this career.
Aside from that there are professional standards that must be conformed to in order to sell.. Realestate, cranes, Securities for example.
With Forkifts I was required to get a instructors license as well as attend factory schools..
In Carpentry if you show up and work you get paid.. In Sales you can work for a very long time and not earn a dime.. I spend an average of $50.00 a day for gas and months may go by before commisions are paid. I sell equipment and depending on the customer may buy lunches or jackets etc. and not recieve payment for years..
I will be paid for as much as seven years for the sale of single piece of equipment (a tiny amount per month) and should the sale fail for some reason depending on the exact details involved be forced to repay all or most of whatever commision I was paid..
You earn based on your work.. at most it's a few weeks before payment.. In my case I can sell and still not earn anything..It can be years before I recieve full payment and even that is subject to factors beyond my control..
When I sell I need to ensure that you will make a profit from what I sell you or it winds up costing me.. When you sell your labor or even a house, no such warrantee is demanded..
You earn based on your work.. at most it's a few weeks before payment.. In my case I can sell and still not earn anything..It can be years before I recieve full payment and even that is subject to factors beyond my control..
When I sell I need to ensure that you will make a profit from what I sell you or it winds up costing me.. When you sell your labor or even a house, no such warrantee is demanded..
These two paragraphs tell me a lot Frenchy. I'm thinking that maybe you're not quite as familiar with the business of contracting as you might think. All you're basically saying up there is that you need to qualify your customers before you make a sale, or you may end up on the losing end of the deal. Hmmmmm, that bears a striking resemblance to contracting. We too can easily find ourselves in the position where we can "sell and still not earn anything". Ever have to pay on an insurance policy based on exposure? You think they care if you made any money on the job or not? Not a chance, W/C wants their cut regardless. I pay wages, I pay the insurance co. Even if that means that there's nothing left for me..... or worse.... even if it puts me in the red. You're basically saying that if the customer defaults on their purchase, for whatever reason, you lose. Who pays me when the frame is done and the builder goes belly-up? Or the H/O runs out of cash or find out that the equity loan they were waiting on isn't coming? Kids like to eat food, not leins.
I'm sorry Frenchy, but your argument is just too vanilla. If we use your quantification criteria, there is absolutely no way to distingish one's self in any occupation. All you're doing is hammering home the point that there are hacks in our occupation. I think you'll have a hard time finding anyone to disagree with you there.... but.... what's the point of all of this? View Image
Okay, that sounds great.So what you're telling me that anyone who's been in sales a long time is superior to other salesman? That sounds just as lame as "We're good because we declare we are and nothing more!".You've spent years preaching about how sales is the most difficult profession, yet you've managed to build a house in the most exclusive zip code so therefore you've reached the pinnacle of the sales mountain.I bet I could take any of your statements about carpentry and substitute a dozen other professions and the statement would read the same.As others have asked, why did you post in this thread?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
"Kids like to eat food, not leins."
I love it!!!!! Gone a put it the business cards!
LOL
Jon Blakemore,
No that is not what I said nor implied.. As I said, I started in the beginning..while maybe not Orville and Wilber Wright but I flew the Jenny's (hopefully you understand the referance)
As to other professions, Perhaps, I haven't considered those.. I know about doctors because my brother is one. I know about carpenters because I spend much of the past 15 years of my life with them.. I know about my profession because I'm third generation pro salesman..
As to my response about the question , read the first question..
Why would anyone pick this profession.. I suggested reasons not to select the profession..
By the way I can argue the other side of the issue as well but if you read all of the posts they've all done a fine job of doing just that.
Frenchy,
I'm confused. Granted the barrier for entry is lower in carpentry, and many other professions, but at the end of the day it's all about what you accomplish every day.
The old Med School equation: C = MD
Doesn't mean your doc is any good. Even if he's been practicing for years. Same with a lawyer, or accountant, or your stockbroker, or...
And frankly, I'm not sure I'd want to hire the guy or gal that just won the Olympics of Carpentry.
That's what portfolios and references are all about - that's the proof of quality. If someone's smart enough, or cares enough to look for quality they will find it. If all they want is flash with no substance, there's plenty of that - don't have to look too hard.
Wayne
(not in the trades, but appreciate quality wherever I find it!)
wrudiger,
It's not only the lower entry point that is at issue, it's also the fact that there is no minimum performance level to remain in the trade..
I visit thousands of newly built homes every year.. I see a tremendous variety of levels of quality..
Absolutely there is fine and wonderful work and some of it takes my breath away! Yet you wouldn't believe some of the hack work that gets past building inspectors and owners! Yet if you ask nobody ever is less than great!
Your point about not wanting to hire the best carpenter confuses me.. Is it because you might not be able to afford him?
or his work would be too fast or too careful or whatever?
Portfolios, ever see one that should the guys worst work?
ever have a contractor give you a bad referance?
Of course not..
The system is far from perfect..
and while nothing is ever perfect with the most expensive purchase most of us will ever make in our lives wouldn't you like a higher entry standard? wouldn't you like some way to eliminate the hacks?
Being able to win a contest doesn't say that someone is good, only that they know how to win the contest (specialized/trained for that). I do hire the best I can afford, and am willing to pay for quality.
I could say the same thing about the demise of public education - "No Child Left Behind" turning students into test-taking experts without critical or creative thinking ability and forcing teachers into test-taking delivery systems while crushing all creativity - but I won't, cause that little rant belongs in the Tavern.
And I suppose you implicitly trust every reco or piece of advice from your doc as well.
wrudiger,
I think I understand your point.. maybe I should have made the analogy something else but I tried for something well understood (Not a sports fan myself)
You do make my point.. You hire the best you can afford and aren't afraid to pay for quality. Can you describe the best carpenter? Fastest, most accurite, carefull joinery work?
Matching grains, tightest tolerances without fill.. what?
If he's good with doug Fir will he be as good with Cherry?
Auto dealerships now have certified mechanics, who are trained as to regard certain things, transmissions, electrical or whatever..
Wouldn't it help if someone got their white oak rating or was certified to operate a router... Imagine if you were cherry and black walnut rated with four clusters and a router.. ( Just thinking out loud) I would then know that you do 4 out of 5 level of work and have the ability to safely and properly use a router on cherry and black walnut..
"Can you describe the best carpenter?" (frenchy)
frenchy,That's profound. I can, frenchy. He didn't have a home.The best tradesmen are learning something every day in my opinion. They all have strengths or weaknesses that can be overcome by integrity and good attitude. Some customers are a challenge to that for one reason or another. Some of them don't realize they don't really want certain things cheapened like they think - this pressure needs to be held by the tradesman so the customer can get what they really want.Others want both all their money and perfection with no regard for the tradesman's living. These are a motivation to be industrious elsewhere. I agree as you've noted, our society is wasteful in general. Wasteful of 1000 year old trees, wasteful of spare time, effort, affection. It's all an experiment that's been conducted before.
Fz
Frenchy I havent' read all the posts but something that we all have to do from time to time is put togher a resume, apply for jobs, fill out job applications, etc.That's when we list our past experiences and toot our horn about our successes.I talked to an "expert" at a college about my resume a few years ago and I referred to resume examples I had seen in a book.The examples showed various occupations and one section on the resume was "accomplishments"For example a basketball coach listed he had "won the state championship".A Realtor stated on his resume he had sold the most homes and his office had given him an award for "employee of the month"A manager stated he had "increased production volume by 7 %" or had reduced company expenditures by 8% or something along these lines.A truck driver had driven over a million miles and had not had an accident.I told the expert my resume was pretty plain and ordinary and I really didn't have any accomplishments. He said "most of us don't"It can be kind of dificult describing your skills and accomplishments on a job application or resume is my point.^^^^^^
"The Older We Get, The Better We Were"
mrfixitusa,
I concure completely..
One company I worked for used to give me all sorts of letters of commendation and plaques.. while the next company simply let me work for them and the fact that I lasted so long was testimony to my ability.
Early in my career I learned that I had to prepare myself for my next job.. I'd save every scrap of paper that showed my achievements.. every month when ratings came out I save my ratings..
Sales of used units were down? I keep a list showing that I sold the most new units and so on..
Pretty blatent self promotion, but experiance has taught me to do it..
Fonzie,
We are in agreement, however your description is excellant for the path a carpenter should follow to improve himself.
Now if you had to hire a carpenter out of the blue, say in a differant city what would your standards be?
How would you really tell the wheat from the chaff?
I'd say look for clues like the neatness of his truck except I've seen wonderfully neat and organized carpenters who spend all of their time in organizational duties and produce little of real value to the homeowner.
I say check referances except nobody lists their failures or troublesome projects. I'd say look at past work, except nobody lists poor past work, and the fact that his previous work has all been in cookie cutter houses may not have anything to do with his ability to step up and create..
The quaity of his tools says more about his ability to purchase than his ability to build..
His personality? Heck some of the best are the gruffest.
His age?
How tall he is?
"To the average homeowner who builds one or two homes in his lifetime How is he to judge?"
I dunno .... but I built a frame outta scrap trim today 'cause the lady thot the opening looked too big around the microwave ....
and when she got back from lunch with her sister ... she saw it ... squealed ... and ran over and hugged me!
I'm thinking she knew ...
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Right on - that pretty much encapsulates this whole thread (or at least the good parts)!
Frenchy, Frenchy, Frenchy.
There's no way you'd say that to a group of building professionals sitting around chatting. Why would you want to say that here? Geez, Frenchy, how many times have you learned something from reading here? Now you want to go and insult us all?
I'm thinking you're having a bad day or something.
But until whatever dark cloud you're under passes, shut the f*ck up.Tipi, Tipi, Tipi!
http://www.asmallwoodworkingcompany.com
Now that, was a breath of fresh air.
I am so grateful for guys like you, Piffin, Mike Smith, Dave Meiland, Texaslandlord, etc. You guys who have weathered the hard times, prospered in the good times, just kept showing up and always remain humble enough to remain teachable and on the learning curve......it's you guys that give us young bloods something to aspire to and a bright future to look forward to.
I'm so f'in sick of hearing from the crusty old crew who are bitter, jaded, and dis-enchanted with homebuilding. Nobody is holding a gun to anyone's head. We are all free to move on if we don't like it. Nobody said it's gonna be easy and nobody said that being a carpenter is a get rich quick scheme. I think we're all aware of that. But a man of character can learn the craft of carpentry, make a decent and honest living, and be fulfilled at the end of the day. If you're only measure of 'fulfillment' is your bank account, then yes... maybe this isn't the job for you. But I believe the whole point of the thread is to share about all of the good things that this job has to offer and that the beauty of this job is that a paycheck is just the beginning of the rewards.
Why Frenchy directed his post to me, I have no idea. In fact, I can't even begin to imagine why he even posted that drivel in this particular thread. View Image
I agree with that about the bank accounts, I do not do this job to retire at 30 it's not going to happen. I do this job because I love it and couldn't imagine doing anything else.
This job isn't rainbows and roses and I don't wear my check cashing clothes to work, I wear my tool bags 10-12 hours a day and do paperwork and estimates at night. I am driven to be better than the next guy by this job.
I will continue to do this job until the day I die, because of reasons I can't even think of. I am far beyond driven to be a good carpenter one day I just might be.I only golf on days that end with a "Y".
It's a choice, that's all. And those who choose to remain stuck and angry....have made their choice. They end up being their own punishment. You reap what you sow.I have my doubts at times but on the whole I feel great about being a craftsman.
dieselpig,
I posted it to you in response to your answer.. Not because what you said was wrong but because there is another side to what you said..
I like builders.. yet in 15 years I have yet to meet a builder who thought he did poor work..
I've seen plenty of poor work yet no-one seems to ever admit to doing poor work, do they?
It's just not possible that all builders are above average is it?
Frenchy, if I take the time to answer all of your pointless questions, I'm gonna have to bill you at my normal $55/hour rate.
My WHOLE FU%KING LIFE IS A COMPETITION!!!!! All I sell is skilled labor brother.... no materials to mark up, no subs to mark up, sink or swim baby. Produce or fall on your face... the late deliveries are no excuse, the shi7ty plans are no excuse, the weather is no excuse..... I don't have the luxury of making excuses. If I don't build something, I don't eat.
If I suck, two things can happen. The first is that nobody will give me any more work. The second is that I go out of business because I'm losing money fixing all my f-ups. I only get paid for what I produce brother. And in my market, I not only have to produce it fast, I have to produce an above average product in order set myself apart and justify my pricing..... all the while keeping neck and neck schedule wise with the guys cutting corners..... cuz nobody cares how good you are if you blow their schedule and kill 'em on carrying costs.
You argument is absolutely hopeless because if you apply the same quantification system that you're using for carpentry to any other trade or profession....... everyone in every occupation is only as good as they think they are. Nobody said that all builders/carpenters are good at what they do.... that came straight out of your azz. How many threads have been started here over the years complaining about hack work? Countless, is the number. You thinking you're breaking some big news story here to us or something? There's hacks in every line of work from preists to prostitutes and everyone in between. Always has been and always will be. All you're doing is preaching to the choir Frenchy.
You know what's really burning my azz though? It's that you've taken a postive upbeat thread and steered it directly into the gutter. But, hey... at least you found a way to blow your own horn and tell us all about how awesome you are in your own occupation. I guess you had to tell someone right?...... thank God for captive audiences or you might not have anyone to listen to you.
Last I checked.... the thread was started by a carpenter asking other carpenters why they do what they do. Tell me again what it is you're doing here ripping carpenters?
How's the house coming? Wanna know how many I've built since you started that thing? Wanna have a pi55ing match over quality? Wanna find out who's a carpenter and who isn't? What they hey..... we've already whipped 'em out..... might as well measure 'em, right?View Image
Jeez, I thought I'd better post just to try to get this thread back on track.
It sounds like I'm in the half that does fine in school- I went through college, got my degree (geography, a great subject but not a great money maker).
Even before I was done with college, he11, even before I started, I knew that for as long as I could, I wanted to work outside lots of the time, work my heart out everyday so I could feel good about it every night, and improve my skills every day.
I took a road from trail work, to bridge building, to backcountry carpentry and stonemasonry, to restoring and remodeling a 1915 arts and crafts bungalow, bought at government auction, and neglected for many, many years. Come august, I'll be moving, and looking for work remodeling or building. I'm actually not too worried about finding work that will pay for my groceries, because I think every business values someone who strives to do great things, and work hard.
Actually, I think carpentry does a great job of this- you're recognized for your work, and it's your calling card. Frenchy talks about how there needs to be ratings or something like that? Surgeons don't have ratings, for the most part- they pass their tests and their residency, and they're a surgeon. Some are great, some not so great. With a carpenter, most of us here can tell by looking at a little handiwork, whether the builder is a master or a hack.
It's true that carpentry isn't valued as much as it should be by the whole population, and maybe most kids don't want to be us when they grow up, but I'm not trying to please everybody. I build for myself, and for those who care about quality enough to seek it out.zak
"so it goes"
dieselpig,
Please reread the post.
No place did I claim you were a hack.. I don't know if you are or aren't..
I even gave you the compliment that because you read this magazine you were a cut above most..
What I said is that in this trade there is no way to really determine who's good and who's better and who's best..
It's not about you!
It's about the fact that there are those in this trade who honestly believe they are great without any foundation to back that up!
I visit far more newly constructed homes in a year than you will visit in a lifetime
I see hack work by guys who brag and see fine quality work by others..
The pay seems to be pretty much the same
Doesn't that bother you?
Your comment about my house seems to indicate that you don't read anything completely.. If you had you'd know that speed isn't what I intended... I'm certain you build much more than I do, but then I'm, a salesman not a carpenter and certainly not a timberframer!
What takes you less than a minute to do takes me well over ten hours to achieve..
You aren't working with black walnut or white oak.. you bang together doug fir or western white woods. I carefully hand plane white oak or black walnut, make mortice and tenions or whatever and join them together..
Your walls when assembled can carry a couple of hundred pounds per foot at best , mine can carry 20 tons per foot.
If you properly toe nailed the rafters to the top plate it takes 208 pounds to pry them apart.. mine take 15,000 pounds..
Your walls are 4 or six inches thick Mine are 16 inches thick..
You work 40 or 50 hours a week with several guys, I do it pretty much by myself.. nights and weekends..
I go to the sawmill select the wood I intend to use and bring it home, dry it, mill it, joint it, shape it, and then and only then is it brought to place where it will be used.. cut and fitted..
You see speed isn't any part of the equation..
Frenchy..... in all seriousness..... what the he11 is your point? It's starting to sound like you're just pizzed off because some of us like our jobs so you figured you'd pop in and throw a jab.
Seriously.... what the he11 are you trying to say?
View Image
Edited 6/12/2006 10:07 pm ET by dieselpig
dieselpig,
I like carpenters.. You're a great bunch of people (mostly) <G>
The first question read why would anyone pick this profession.. You all did a fine job of stating the positive attributes of the job..
I mention a couple of the weakness of the profession and every single one of you thinks of it at a personal attack..
Nothing is perfect, but to improve things you simply must look at what's wrong and decide to do something about it..
As a lurker from Fine Cooking (my sunroon is sinking and we are deciding about what we can do) and a physician I have to say that the analogies between being a doctor and carpenter are right on. What I admire in this group is the passion for good work, which is what most of my partners and I strive for as well- we B&M as much as anyone (same as you: don't get paid, bad overhead, worse insurance) but love the actual job. Even though we are inside (the big down side), and the hours suck (up all night) you work with your hands, have to think about weird stuff all day, and get to know a lot about people in very different situations.
We just built a new hospital- watch that sucker go up was nothing short of a miracle.
Any job you love is great and any job you hate sucks, no matter what. I have lots of respect for you guys.
That's great to hear that you, as a M.D., can see the comparison. I think it's a fair one, the combination of diagnostic, and hand work, and of book learning and experience and just deducing the correct approach from the aggregate of experience.
I know full well that there are some real hacks in carpentry, and med school is too tough for many of those types to get through. And of course, we should understand 2x4s better than we do neurons, but there is the parallel of comitted people trying to understand and fix things that are never as simple as they seem.zak
"so it goes"
I'm tired. Generally, I like you Frenchy. You've helped me a lot in learning about a couple different topics. But I still don't understand why you'd pop into this particular thread with those statements. I think I understand what you were getting at, but I still think it's too much of a generalization and I still think this wasn't the proper place for it.
But really.....I'm wrong a lot. So take it for it's worth.
I'm gonna load Vivaldi on the Ipod now and hit the hay. Maybe it'll all make sense to me tomorrow.View Image
Four Seasons ?
Yep. That's my ni-nite music. It's like getting hit in the head with a frying pan....without the headache. ;)
The copy I have now is performed by the Academy of St. Martin in the Fields. It's fantastic. Got it on Itunes. It's the remedy, baby.
View Image
Me too. My 19 yr old son is a violinist. I got hooked on the music years ago. I'll send you some good files if you want. You'll sleep like a stone and frame like a mad man.
"With every mistake we must surely be learning"
That'd be great. I'm new to the world of classical music and don't know where to begin in selecting compositions and recordings. Must be nice having music 'in house' like that. Thanks Mike.View Image
My calming music is Schubert's "Piano Trio in E"
Like walking through spare, serene rooms.
Forrest
"My calming music is Schubert's "Piano Trio in E"Miles Davis "Kinda Blue". I've listened to that album for three decades now and it still has the same effect. I listen to it at least once a month.Debussy's "Afternoon of a Faun"The Sacred Arias sung by Bocelli. The eyes roll back and I'm off to another world.
Oh yeah - "Kinda Blue is disc # 005 on my changer, just after Brubeck's "Take 5"!
Forrest
Great albums. And right after them should be John Coltrane's "Giant Steps" or A Love Supreme". They're not as relaxing but just as good.
I met Dave Brubeck once, at his house no less. A priest friend of mine was close to his family and took a few of us (musicians at the time) to meet him. Very gracious, very generous. Maybe someday I'll know a little something.
I picture the guys in "Wayne's World" meeting Alice Cooper and salaaming and crying, "we're not worthy!"
I know I would be!
I've got that newish release of Coltrane and Davis.
Forrest
You know, at the time his name might as well have been Dave Thompson, because I didn't know him from anyone. I came to be a fan well after the fact, of course. I didn't appreciate it as much as I should have.
What an in-house studio he had, though. And a heck of a grand piano in the family room.
Sorry for the hijack!Maybe someday I'll know a little something.
Oh man....that must have been great. I think he's still kicking.
He is-he plays the Newport Jazz festival every year.
It's funny-that same year I met him (1989??), the priest friend invited him to perform at our church-he wanted to debut some new sacred music, which at the time he was heavily into. The priest asked me to be the lead guy on the "roadie" crew. We'd meet him, set up the stage, all that stuff, and I TURNED HIM DOWN.
After the show, Dave invited the whole crew that I would have been part of to the after-party at the governor's house. I think I stayed home and watched a hockey game.
What a loser. Maybe someday I'll know a little something.
Come over to my place.....I'm gonna kick you inna butt! You must have been bummed!
Yeah, hindsight being what it is, I realize it was a pretty stupid move!!Maybe someday I'll know a little something.
It's still way cool that you got to meet one of the great innovators of American music. I remember listening to him & Desmond when I was a kid in the early 60's.
I'll have to check it out. Thanks for the tip.View Image
took 3 months but I got my son to put together a cd for you. Check your email.
"With every mistake we must surely be learning"
Awesome Mike. I had forgotten all about that. Thanks much!View Image
Did you get the music? I sent it out a couple of weeks ago.
"With every mistake we must surely be learning"
I've built some nice things and made a good living at carpentry. One of the women's magazines said carpenters were the most sexy, although I'm sure they all want their kids to marry doctors or lawyers.
I should have recognized the computerized dot-matrix printer naked lady I printed out in college in 1973 as the premonition that she was, but I didn't.
No work in Michigan, I may go back to school.
Kowboy
Yes, I got it Mike and it's a really great sampling. Didn't you get my email? I'm guessing not.... anyway it showed up about two days after we got our new surround sound set up... perfect timing.
Once again though, I really appreciate it Mike and tell your son I said thank you as well.
-BView Image
Your walls when assembled can carry a couple of hundred pounds per foot at best , mine can carry 20 tons per foot.
If you properly toe nailed the rafters to the top plate it takes 208 pounds to pry them apart.. mine take 15,000 pounds..
Your walls are 4 or six inches thick Mine are 16 inches thick..
WTF?!?!?!?!
What does that have to do with anything? Fantastic. If my chute ever fails to open while I'm piggybacking a 10 wheeler....... I'll look for your house?!?!
Somebody please tell me again, why you love being a carpenter? That is what we were talking about, right?View Image
dieselpig,
If your chute fails pick a weaker house.. that way you might stand a chance (which would you rather land on , a marsh or a rock)
The question was why would anybody want to pick this profession.. I mentioned why not and you seem to take it personal.. WHY?
Where the hell do I find the thread/site where the salesmen are talking about why they like there profession?
I'm gonna go over there and bud in and talk about shid I know nothing about!
Doug
Edited 6/12/2006 10:55 pm ET by DougU
Believe me.... I wish everything I framed was a 6000 sqft showpiece. But they're not. But it doesn't mean I can't treat them all the same and give them all the attention they deserve.
Another great reason why I want to be a carpenter!!!!!
you're the craftsmen...the baseball guy is merely a capitalist. You're a way rarer bird."I hate quotations. Tell me what you know" Ralph Waldo Emerson
Jimblodgett,
Why are you insulted?
Haven't you met people in the trade who aren't quaified? Don't you wish there was a process whereby those who aren't qualified were kept out of your industry?
Go back and carefully reread what was said..
There is no natural selection process is there? economy slows down and people get out,, economy speeds up and new people replace them..
There is no final four of our industry or superbowl is there?
You don't build a house after 10 years of advanced education while thirty of your fellow classmates etc. are forced out before earning their first dime in the profession..
The economy determines how many builders there are not a selection process..
We're good because we declare we are and nothing more! (frenchy)frenchy,We put our product on the market and the customers determine if we are good and if we are they recommend us to their friends. There's really not a "tenure" in my opinion. We're only as good as the last job. Fz
Fonzie,
at the risk of offending more, do all customers who have homes built have good judgement and the ability to select fine workmanship?
If so the losest price should never be an issue.. We all know that's not true.. somebody out there is doing less than average work..
I'll accept that it's nobody who responded to this post since we all know you guys are all above average <G>
Frenchy,You're talking about new homes, I'm talking about remodeling. The job we just finished was for people I've worked for several times over a 22 year period. You are talking about your "hobby" - going to the sawmill, choosing the log, maybe choosing the tree & felling it - which is fine - but try putting what you're describing on the market to make a living...You're describing a false dilemma, plus telling us how good you are - did you notice that? You are irritated about tradesman you think brag about how good they are, but I haven't seen any of them trot out a line like your parade about your "forklift knowledge". Could those two things be related? And now you have brought up the "lowest price". Now I think we have come to the heart of the matter. I've seen men who have no regard for the tradesman at all - just their own squeezable money. It becomes a situation of pressure to cheapen the work, go faster. Is it true that you're building your own idolic dream house because you can't find anybody who can stand to work for you?FzEdited 6/12/2006 11:09 pm ET by Fonzie
Edited 6/12/2006 11:10 pm ET by Fonzie
Fonzie,
I bring up my hobby only in response to someone else. Ignore it,, not relavent.
I'm not sure what you want from me..
yes carpentry is a great job.. I've never argued with that.. But there are problems with it.. I mentioned a few.. none were in referance to you..
You may be good or great. I frankly have no way of knowing.. (which was my original point)
If you said you were a surgeon at the Mayo Clinic I would know.. If you said you were a Center Fielder for the New York Yankees I'd know..
If you were a senator or govenor I'd know..
Have you ever seen wonderfull craftsmanship and wished you could recognize who did it?
Like Van Gough's sunflowers?
Shouldn't such skill be rewarded?
We are in complete agreement regarding cheap! The trouble is second grade math. too often people with little or no ability or knowledge fall back on second grade math to select a builder..
Idolic? Idiotic maybe <G> Homes in Europe that last hundreds of years are massively overbuilt. The average home in America is demolished after 56 years. (or so completely remodeled as to be effectively demolished). The wood used to build those most likely came from trees that took a thousand years or more to grow and it's discarded after just 56 years.... MY humble attempt to beat that is the reason for the mass of my structure..
The reason I'm building my own house is several.. First I love the work.. second it's being built exactly as I wish and not somebodies interpitation of what I want. and third is cost. I was told that the first half of my house built by a pro timberframer would be in excess of a million one hundred thousand dollars the house will be finished for a fraction of that.
>>Maybe its an obsession
Maybe, but I think it's more of a passion.
b : a strong liking or desire for or devotion to some activity, object, or concept.
You thoughts are dead on. How many people other than carpenters can ride down the road and say, "Yep, I built that". Donald Trump likes to brag about what all he's built, but he probably never had a hammer in his hand, and if he has, it wasn't today. Deep down he and all of us know who really built it.
I could make a ton more money if I drove to my office everyday in nice clothes, talked on the phone, looked at flow charts and spread sheets, but at the end of the day I couldn't look up and say, "Yep, I built that."
k
Since Carpenter Apprentice in post #1 was so kind as to include all here - not just FT professionals in the trades, I'll pipe in.
You wrote a sentence that fully resonated with me:
"I could make a ton more money if I drove to my office everyday in nice clothes, talked on the phone, looked at flow charts and spread sheets, but at the end of the day I couldn't look up and say, "Yep, I built that.""
LOL! That's pretty much sums up my current lot in life. (Well, perhaps I should give myself some credit cuz from my dayjob's office window, I can look at a 5 acre complex of buildings that I, as one of the project managers, oversaw the construction of...and you can bet your azz I was out in the field walking the site daily as that was occurring... which is part of why we have accomplished over 7.5M manhours without a lost day away from work injury case, which goes BACK and into our construction phase!)
Anyway...
It is when I get home and see the projects I've done here on my humble abode, that I get that major satisfaction feeling and joy in seeing what I've done and saying to myself "I DID THAT."
In fact, I think it is experiencing that feeling which is truly driving the wave of major DIYers who are nowadays coming to try to do these projects...and finding even with all the trials and travails and mixed results, that it is incredibly satisfying.
Funny. As I reflect back to the decade and a half (give or take) I spent with my XDH who was a FT professional framer and occasional GC... I would note those jobsite conversations...and the irritation expressed about how the archy was nuts expecting this or that...BUT underlying the B&M was a certain respect for the structural P.E....and for the archy... There was an unexpressed inferiority complex there amongst the tradespeople for the white collar (WC) professionals which I rarely saw the converse of; i.e. any superiority complex by WC prof's expressed by dissin' the tradesmen/women. But what I mean to say now is this:
It seems to me that many of those same WC professionals venturing into the DIY arena are now discovering personally and directly the satisfaction and pride that comes with doing this type of work and THEY are now envying you guys - the professionals in the trades, that aspect of your daily lives.
Strange how ya live long enuf and you can see the paradigm shifts...
DUM SPIRO SPERO: "While I breathe I hope"
mizshredder2,
>>which is part of why we have accomplished over 7.5M manhours without a lost day away from work injury case, which goes BACK and into our construction phase!)
That's a very impresive stat! I wish my insurance rates could be based on that kind of record.
>>that I get that major satisfaction feeling and joy in seeing what I've done and saying to myself "I DID THAT."
There are a lot of people who can look at a project and say "I did that" It takes everyone of them to make it happen. From the banker, to the designer/architect, to the suppliers, project managers, engineers, carpenters, electricians, plumbers etc. right down to the guys who sweeps the floor and hauls the trash away.
Over the years I've done most of those jobs. I am currently a small design/build GC and still work with my tools everyday, not because it's the most profitable thing to do but because Ive spent nearly 30 yrs. developing my skills and a reputation for fine homebuilding. I'm not willing to let go that.
I recently met with a client and discussed a small house, about 2300 sq.ft. with an attached airplane hanger. The lady asked about a time frame and I told her from start to finish it would take about 5 or 6 months. She asked "why so long? Where I'm from we turn these houses over in about 100 days." I politly told her that there were builders in the area who would build the house in that time frame but I'm not one of them. I told her that I would be working on the job everyday and doing a great deal of the work personally. We'll see if I get the job.
>>Strange how ya live long enuf and you can see the paradigm shifts...
I've never really thought about it, but you're right!
k
We'll see if I get the job.
Good luck with that K!DUM SPIRO SPERO: "While I breathe I hope"
"...BUT underlying the B&M was a ..."I need a translatiuon pleasebitchinandmoaninorbondage and masochismboth seem to fit the context;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
both seem to fit
Well then...take yer pick! LOL!
DUM SPIRO SPERO: "While I breathe I hope"
Mizshredder said:
>>In fact, I think it is experiencing that feeling which is truly driving the wave of major DIYers who are nowadays coming to try to do these projects...and finding even with all the trials and travails and mixed results, that it is incredibly satisfying. <<
Hear hear. I don't do it myself to save money. I do it because I like to. Any savings realized are a happy accident.
Mini hijack. Sorry.
When I was a little boy I loved tools. I even had a "real" tool set. Then when I was 4 I cut my thumb open with the saw in that real tool set. They got put away. My mom remarried a guy with no handy talent at all (and his father was a bricklayer and carpenter, oddly enough), so I never had any influence to pick up those tools again. 22 years after that saw accident I found myself wanting to know more about tools all over again.
That was 12 years ago. Now I know a lot more about tools and I'm still learning to use them. And every day I go and sit at my desk at work and I log onto Breaktime. I see what guys like Mike Smith and Diesel do every day and I wish that I hadn't lost those 22 years.
Sort of the inverse to "why choose this profession". And it has nothing to do with qualifying or quantifying carpenters.
Maybe someday I'll know a little something.
Edited 6/13/2006 1:43 pm ET by JJV
Oh Yea, I forgot. A while back I made a promise to myself to encourage anyone (especially the youngsters) who display the passion. So if you got it, of if you're getting it, Hang in there. It's a rewarding profession. There aren't a lot of people out here who are interested in building things to the best of their ability. There are even less who aren't kidding themselves about their abilities. Look back when you finish a job and feel the pride in a job well done. It get's even more cool in another 20 yrs or so when you can see that your work has stood the test of time.
k
Being a carp
Ive wondered many times. There is so much about it that sucks . Theres much that is rewarding . Its not a good job to take into old age. The benifits normally suck. Pride flows like a river year after year.
I was born into it . Raised with it and all the family did it , so it has been a way of life. I didnt really pick it as I was trained before I had choices and then when it was time for that ,.... I dunno.
Ive often said I would teach a son to do it for back up but it didnt work that way for me. Im training a grandson now and about to pull my hair out. What was I thinking?
However if a carp takes opportunities to another level of some kind he or she can be richly rewarded. As a stepping stone it can be a great profession. Its always been noble.
Tim
Dad wanted me to be an engineer - ro a lawyer, doctor, banker....
but I've always loved doing things with my hands
I'm a natural born problem solver
I like to turn around at the end of the day and see something acomplished
I get bored doing the same job threee times the same way
And I didn't have the patience to stay in school long enough to get a normal degree. I got bored there, so I'm self taught mostly.
They don't let many self taught doctors inthe hospitals
But i have my own secret entry door to get in anyway...
it's called the emergency entrance ( My wife likes to tell about the day she got a phone call from me asking, "How would you like to take me and my finger over the to hospital? I don't quite feel up to driving over there myself..."
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
Yeah, my folks dis-owned me when I refused to attend university. They had big plans for me to become a pharmacist or accountant. They had the money, I had the brains. I needed bread and I needed wheels. I had lots of girls. I, too had no patience for tests and term papers. So I signed up for the apprentice program. I didn't know how much they paid, but it had to better than KFC. In the long run I regret it. But at 17, I was too immature and would have probably gotten expelled.
You probably saved you and your folks a wad of cash then.
I was on a similar program myself. I had the grades and the brains for college, but not the desire. By the end of my first semester of college I had lost on campus housing due to various violations which came to a head one evening when campus police raided my room and found me in a gas mask.
By the time I got to my first summer break I recieved notice from this pricey private instituation that I had been classified "persona non grata" by the dean of student affairs. In a nutshell.... I got bounced.
Fast forward a few years and were talking about 5 different colleges in six years and no degree. I'm 32 now and just two years ago I finished paying off my student loans for that collosal waste of time, energy, and money that was my college experience. I sure had a freakin' blast though.
If the shoe don't fit...... it don't fit.View Image
I did all my partying at my collegiate friends' expenses. All the fun with no responsibility. Unwanted pregnancies, trashed dorm rooms and student unions. By Monday A.m. I was MIA. A lot of them have degrees with low- paying jobs and Still paying student loans.
dieselpig,
From viewing your communication skills and work achivements I don't think your college experience was a "collosal waste" of time, energy and money. The fact that you didn't get a degree (piece of paper) or follow through with a particular field of study means little.
At 32 your're running a successful business, looking at retirement investments, own a home which you remodled yourself, comfortable dealing with all classes of people? And unlike many, you actually paid off your college loans.
Ya learnt sumpin!
"In a nutshell.... I got bounced."
I always put it this way ...
"the Dean and I had a meeting and reached an agreement ... I didn't wanna be there and he didn't want me back!"
btw ... it was a Fri afternoon I came home and told my parents, I was still living at home ... Dad just got up from the kitchen table and said, That's fine ... but as long as U expect to live here U either go to shcool or work FT ... and walked to the phone. "Yeah, Gary, Jeff's outta school .. U still need a guy? ... Great ... Monday at 5:30 ..."
I thot he had lined up a job interview with the guy up the alley that poured concrete ... didn't know that "5:30" wasn't PM ... it was AM ... and that was when Gary picked my up for my first day humping concrete!
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
I always put it this way ..."the Dean and I had a meeting and reached an agreement ... I didn't wanna be there and he didn't want me back!" (JeffBuck)Like Red Green says, "We had a personality conflict. I had a sense of humor, he didn't - he had authority, I didn't."
do it because you can, not because you "have to" ...
all the guys that bitch and moan all day ... they're in construction because they have no other options ... and they are trapped ... as they'll never advance much in construction either.
learn and grow ... and it can be a great profession.
me ... I'm here because I realized years ago I'm not good as an employee ... and I had to find a scam where I could be the boss ... and this is it.
don't tell no one, huh?
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
I had an office job. I did a million other things while putting together a weekly report to send to a main office. I would rush to beat a deadline and then just start again. It gave me no satisfaction. Just numbers on a pc. of paper.
I can drive by something I built and be proud of it. Hopefully, I can go by thirty years from now and see my work was done well enough to affect someones life for a long time.
I have a huge indepenent streak. I always hated having to balance out a company's or bosses ethics and standards to my own. I hated working under bosses who rose to their level of incompetence. I was raised to keep my mouth shut and do my best. In most organizations, people like that get screwed. I think there are huge numbers of people who nobody is really sure what they do except promote themselves.
I know what I do. It speaks for itself.
I realized everyone is working for themselves regardless of who writes the paycheck.
People always need their house worked on. Its just a matter of my learning to manage finances so I last through a dry spell or find profitable work and not have to cut my wages to poverty levels to try to survive.
Carpenter Apprentice,
I always got the biggest bang out of building things throughout childhood (see attachment) and highschool (Industrial Arts Fair), yet no one ever said "why not be a carpenter", so I took off to college to become a teacher like everybody else. Let's just say there were other plans in the making.
After coming home my neighbor - a respected tradesman who had seen me always building things - got me a job as a carpenter in a nearby city. I hated it for the first week and a half, then started spending all my money to buy tools and do it my whole life. That was 41 years ago, and I've been doing it ever since.
You get to be a kid again, play in the mud, walk on stilts, make things, throw things, destroy things, make noise, enjoy the seasons, etc. As mentioned, it's therapy because the product has substance.
You get to meet people in their homes. What an honor to get to be in people's homes, to be trusted, to get to know them in that context. We stay longer than the relatives. We learn things from them - in context. I see them around town and we're friends. I didn't screw up their house. They like what we did together - their ideas, our work.
I feel sorry for doctors, executives, CPAs, bankers, governent officials, etc, missing out on all this. We have to remember those less fortunate. And thank God I'm not a teacher.
Fz
Great replies...and for the most part, as well said as can be said!
I've pondered this at some lenght, wondering why I so love to construct things when I could be in my office making bagoodles more money doing what I have been formally trained to do....
I think it has to do with how I was raised and my mechanical skills
My dad, a GC, took me onto job sites starting at 5 years old. My first job (and I actually remember it), was sorting through the swept up sawdust, picking out the nails and sorting them in piles by size. Through those young years, I watched carpenters construct walls, set joists, etc etc, and just assumed this was natural for all men to do. In short, I never learned to be afraid or intimidated by major construction projects.
As to mechanical skills, I suspect we're born with them. My great grandad was a carpenter, my grandad a machinist and my dad a carpenter/GC. Is there a trend here?
Oh, and to the comment about Don (You're Fired!) Trump. On several occassions, I've been in a group of exec types, when one comments "I'm building a house in Garabaldi...". I have to literally bite my lower lip to keep from saying..."oh, that's great! By the way, which nail gun do you use?"
BruceM
When I got started as a framer in 1971, I could leave my hair to the middle of my back, get a tan at work and see what I had accomplished at the end of the day. It was also as enjoyable as playing sports to me, and kept me in shape. I really loved it and still piddle around with some projects on my property.
I have learned and proven that entering into the carpentry profession with the attitude that I am going to be all I can in the general building inductry creates a situation where you are only limited by yourself. I have been told that before the internet and .coms, there were more self made millionaires in the building industry than any other profession, including the medical field.
It is also satisfying to see a project come together and have a money making source for my art brain. I enjoy this as a builder now. I have grown in 35 years to become a custom home design / build company. I really have come to enjoy the design work and look forward to doing more of this as I grow older. I also enjoy the business and customer relations aspect.
My sister went to college and received a masters degree. I think my folks would have sent me to college, but I was a wild and crazy renegade, carpentry facilitated my inclinatiions both as an artist and renegade. Upon graduation, she kicked my butt when comparing income, but I have grown over the years to average at least two and sometimes three times what she makes.
If your are smart, and not going to school, I suggest applying yourself with all due dilignece to your trade and industry. Learn the phase your are in (if a helper / help the best you can and learn, read, study and gather from Breaktime Super friends, etc.) Set you sights on a higher goals. I moved through construction laborer, carpenters helper, carpenter, lead carpenter, sub-contractor, contractor, builder, custom builder and now I have 100 acres I am trying to develope.
I enjoy negotiations and the business. I can set a budget for phases of a project, sign a contract based on budget and then apply dilignece to make it more profitable. If you are good, applying due diligence to multiple phases as a builder can create multiple blessings. Last week my diligent management of several situations created a substantial net profit income over and above my salary, overhead and calculated profit.
When you own a business, it can not be neglected. You must have dicipline and make sacrifices. I average about 10 hours a day M-F, but the rewards are great.
I have no regrets, but must tell you it ain't easy and takes special character.
"Set you sights on a higher goals.:
You said that better than I did . I shoulda typed more. <G>
Tim
Nice thread. Some very nice replies. My parents are both teachers. Dad retired 3 yrs ago as a Ag Ed/Shop teacher. He had classes from welding to woodworking to small engines, etc. I loved those classes, but I was also fairly good at the other subjects. Made me want to also teach, but maybe some younger kids, el ed stuff. Gawd, what was I thinking?
So the other "shop" class at school was Industrial Arts. That was the real woodworking, tech ed stuff. Not long after I left, the shop actually became the computer room and the classroom the shop. The focus of the classes changed to computer driven. I got very interested in the art of industry through those classes.
Instead of attending a trade school for the wood arts, I opted to a university. Quit that after 3 semesters of enjoying the "life"! Answered an ad in the paper for a carpy's helper in January, no less. 19 yrs old with one summer's experience.
12 yrs later it's my dad who asks me opinions on building something. I'm happy to realize I have the respect of my family and friends for my knowledge of the trade and related aspects.
I started in the business because I had a distinct interest early on. I'm still here because I'm good at what I do, respected by people who know me for what I do, and just plain enjoy it. It's a game that I like to be a student of. Always something to learn.
Neither cold, nor darkness will deter good people from hastening to the dreadful place to quench the flame. They do it not for the sake of reward or fame; but they have a reward in themselves, and they love one another.
-Benjamin Franklin
I started out as an underpaid carpenter and wound up a building contractor. Opportunity presents itself in many forms - it usually goes ignored as it shows up in coveralls and looks like hard work! Sounds like a carpenter to me!
I enjoy doing this. I work for myself and its not the same thing everyday. I drove truck for ten years and that ruined me. When that ended it would have been impossible to take a "normal job" (ya know 9 to 5). As a matter of fact I worked in a supply house for one year before going into building and it was maddening. I felt like I worked all day and then i'd look at the clock and it would be 10:30.
After ten years of going home when the work was done, I couldnt take being stuck somewhere in case someone needed a "johnson rod" or a "muffler bearing" at one minute to 5.
This is a really great post!
Both of my noneducated parents worked with their hands... and they had their own businesses. I went to school and graduated from college. Worked for some companies and felt as though I have been brain washed. It seems schools teach you how to get in debt with student and home loans, accept working behind closed walls in a 9-5 job, teach you to climb the ladder that doesnt exist... what a joke. So after a few months of corporate I quit.
I really like what Jesse James said one day as he raised his hands up in front of the TV... there is nothing wrong with making a living using these. There was no sense of accomplishment from corporate... just (as mentioned in other posts) watch the clock and fill out paperwork... It's really sad its like you want your life to end sooner just so the clock can hit 5.
When I tell people I work on houses... they look down on me... but I feel sorry for them... they dont understand...
My Dad was a carpenter and loved his job. I like working with my hands and feeling a since of accomplishment... but he, my Dad, loved his accomplishments and took great pride in his cabinentry and building... His career was in Louisiana, the land that requires skills in installing pillans to keep homes and buildings from sinking. I have an Uncle who lives in one of those homes and it survived Katrina. It's the only house that survived Katrina in that neighborhood. (That makes me proud of my Dad who has been gone since 2000.)
As a daughter, my Dad being a carpenter taught me to do what you love and do it to the best of your ability... My Dad trained himself. I remember him reading books on geometry and carpentry to understand his trade. He had no formal education, but carpentry is something that came naturally to him, with a lot of dedication and hard work.
I like being a carpenter's daughter...
No drug test, no background check. I'm dumb as a bag of hammers...where else could I go?
Great Thread!!
For me, I think the profession found me. It was destiny! Parents strongly urged me to get college degree which i did. Computer programmer for 18 misserable months in Corp office with no windows, required tie/suit, and not much satisfaction (for a good co). Then 10 years in family business. Fun for first 5 years, then..... Needed to find my thing!
I always enjoyed carpentry, working with wood/ hands/ building things. I had to see if I could do it as a profession. Been doing carpentry full time for ~six years and I'm so happy I found my thing. Sometimes I wish I went for it sooner but I'm glad this profession kept calling. Not all days start smoothly but I usually m proud of what I accomplish at the end of the day.
Like others have said, some people may look down on what we do as a proffession but that doesn't matter. Its job satisfaction to each of us which is most important. Do your thing!
Cheers
-Bob
I did go to university. Then, of course, figured out I am not set out to be an employee.
So, I bought a taxi.
Wife said, let's go back to MY home (South Africa), so we did and I went to work for a corporation. I was right, it does not work for me to be an employee. Came back & bought another taxi.
Never happy, always loved working with my hands, so, when I sold the cab I started repairing houses. 'been doing it ever since.
I love seeing something better in my rear-view mirror than when I pulled up.Quality repairs for your home.
AaronR ConstructionVancouver, Canada
As a builders kid, it kinda grew on me and I was making more money than most kids my age and there was no way in hell I was gonna work in a fast food joint or the like. Started sweepin', led to more and before you know it, I was running the gang saw, cuttin' and chucking lumber up to the framers blocking and then into framing and on and on...I loved it then and even dead tired and beat, I still look at what I do and take pride in it. It drives me nuts when a guy will take ten minutes to reroute a hose or have to climb down to get some gun nails cause he doesn't carry any box nails to nail off something that takes 30 sec. It's different when you grew up hand nailing then got guns later. (Sorry for the tangent)
I have picked up guys that have never cut a roof! All trusses! It blew me away. I just finished up a Habitat for Humanity job( Build a thon) and the "no guns on site rule" brought back some good memories and swinging a hammer never felt so good.I guess you'll find a mix but most guys here probably have a passion for what they do. I take particular pride in my work and when another guy visits my site or sees my work, I want him to think" damn this guy is good". Vanity? Maybe, but leaves n o question and have gotten many referals from other GC's who didn't want to tackle a complex stick roof. I love my job and my boss is great (me) so I keep working and get a kick outa someone looking at my work and saying " That's a crazy Frikin' roof, awesome!" Paycheck isn't bad either....__________________________
Judo Chop!
As a young man in South Brooklyn in the early 60's I had a number(8) of young friends that came from Norway. MASTER CARPENTERS ALL, who jumped into their station wagon early monday morning as the saloons closed, drove to CT. framed a house by hand(who is porter cable?) and were drinking Ringers beer by 9 PM on monday night in Duffy's Tavern . Oh, did I mention that they had bought a very old hearse from a funeral director, put a rebuilt engine in it, three beach lounge chairs in the back all their tool boxes and THAT ws their station wagon. They were the best, the old world-look once, cut once, nail it up, DONE. Never to be seen again in our lifetimes. All the best, Pat
For the carpenter groupies. Chicks dig guys in toolbelts.
A while back I had a life-changing medical experience (for the better) and shortly thereafter realized this was the point where I had finally "made it" in this world and was no longer motivated by another degree, faster car, or prettier wife. From this point out it's all frosting on the cake.
Residential construction is enjoyable because it's personal and the results are both tangible and subtilely not-so-tangible. When I'm done the results will impact families for generations. Some of the best memories kids will grow up with will involve the spaces that get built today.
A year from now neighbors will have all but forgotten what a remodeled house looked like before construction, but, when passing around stories of remodels gone good and bad, will bring up our work as "that house down the block" and how well the new blends into old.
10 years from now when the house is sold to another owner, the quality of what we do today is insurance for both the buyer and seller.
100 years from now a remodeling carpenter not even born today will examine our work as a base from which to build onto, or scrap completely, but they'll know us for how we put things together.
With a couple of degrees under my belt it's hard to tell young carpenters or carpenters to be that they need to go to college and not get sucked into construction. Construction and the trades can be a career alternative to college-related professions if it fits the person.
Yes, low-end carpentry can be the job of last resort for those with issues, but more often the best carpenters are in this boat because of a choice.
With friends in the trades, tenured faculty at universities, doctors, laywers, tech geeks, and everywhere inbetween, it's been hard to watch carpenters sell themselves short when it come to what we all do.
It's a common misperception that a person has have above average smarts, or a list of highschool college prep classes under their belt to make it in college. For almost a dozen years I saw people not smart enough to be a good carpenter graduate with 4-year degrees.
Carpentry can be a professional career, as most of those here at BT clearly show, or it can be a simple back breaking way to get a check.
I also don't buy labeling someone based on what they have or haven't done to get where they are. We've all done exactly the right things to be exactly were we are today--good or bad.
Natural selection IS applicable to the business of carpentry--it goes on every day and to a larger extent than many other professions. Natural selection doesn't descriminate based on anything other than what you're doing right now, right here. No excuses, no BS, no blaming others for where we are or aren't.
DieselPig has a rewarding and successful business because he has been doing something right. Period.
Cheers
I actually started off kinda backwards. I started at 15 building magazine and book racks for grocery store chains and drug stores. I than went on to do finish work on new boats (Sea Ray) and than did a 7 month stint working in the space shuttle program working on the SRB's and external tank. Got bored and went to work building custom cabinets.
Cabinet shop owner went back into new home building and I went with him. Now I do addittions, remodels, new construction and a lot of commercial build outs. I have my own cabinetshop behind my house and I have a welding/mechanical shop next to it in case I ever need to make some extra money (and have the time). I'm still doing this because:
1. I get to work different places and I'm not stuck at one shop.
2. I can smoke at most places without having to take a break.
3. If it rains and I have nothing else to do, I get to go to the bar earlier. ;-)
4. I get to buy tools!
5. I can tell people "Yeah, I built that and that one and the one coming up..."
6. I'll never have to worry about hiring someone to fix my house.
7. I'll always have work as materials don't last forever.
8. The beer always tastes better after you can look at what you built.
Kinda' reminds me of the old joke - guy asks a call girl, "so how'd you wind up in a job like this?"
"Just lucky, I guess . .."
Forrest
Why not?
I wake ready to work. I sleep happy that I did.
The world's better because I was here today.
Troy Sprout
"Don't forget the screws"
So why did you pick this profession?
I lost a bet
I've been a salesman my whole life. Have a BS, and business mgt. experience, but have always enjoyed home improvement and working with my hands. More and more I question whether I can put up with the daily grind of sales, and the diminishing sense of accomplishment it produces. I wonder how many have made the change to carpentry businesses from corporate jobs? I'd be able to produce pretty good finish carpentry and basic cabinet making work. I'm north of forty, and would be interested to know if many have taken this sorta turn this late in life. Any advice?
For junior carps wanting to get out on their own, or for those wanting to get into carpentry, it can be wise to slowly ease into working for yourself by taking on weekend and evening carpentry work.
It gets your feet wet, gets your name out and gives you time to ponder doing it full time. There is a world of difference between thinking of doing it and actually doing it. This is a proven way to gain experience in a relatively safe way and get a feel for how your skills fit into the market.
If you're still wanting to jump in full time, perhaps there is some way to take the plunge and still have the corporate job to fall back to. Sabbaticals can be just the ticket.
At the very least you should take some sort of workshop or dedicated self study on starting a small business. This point is always brought up to people in your situation and is the first to be put on the back burner. For some strange reason people just subconciously want to learn the business nuts and bolts while being bombarded with the nitty gritty details and conflicts of a difficult job (the worst possible time).
I'd be surprised if 50% of carpenters who go out on their own last a full year. Maybe it's good for people to try it and see if it's going to work, and just get the idea out of their system. Whatever you do, just have a good backup plan.
:-)
Thanks trout. Sound advice, and i thank you. The walk-before-you-run approach is difficult to argue with, and exactly how this has played out for me so far. What I've done for family and friends has gotten me some paying jobs. Those have lead to more. Most recently I'm making cabinets, which i like because i can work in my shop during the weeknights and install on weekends. Little conflict with my other job.
Be well.
TVC15
I am a professional salesman. two degrees (none in management, those that can sell sell, while those that can't wind up in management <G>) Third generation salesman.. selling since age 5 (I'm 58 now)
I too have felt the disatisfaction with not doing things with your hands. And looked at a tremendous variety of careers. In the end I realized that selling was just something I was good at and that I would have to treat other interests as hobby's
About four years ago I started to build my home.. I decided that since I was saving all the labor costs I could build whatever I wanted to..
I choose to build a timber frame, well actually a double timberframe. Timbers inside and outside. white oak inside, black walnut outside..
The result is a very nice home with a tremendous amount of sweat equity..
As sales slow down I work on my home when they pick up I go back to selling.
I don't have the frustration most have with sales dips, instead I look at it as a chance to work on my hobby..
At your age you had really ought to look extremely carefully at a career change..
If you fail the corporate world won't look very kindly at you.. Few companies want sales over about age 45 without a great deal of built in customer base..
without the depth of experiance it will be tremendously difficult to succeed in construction..
Thanks for your thoughts. Had figured about the same, myself. There are days when sales puts a spring in your step, and others where it just seems like a treadmill. Have done pretty extensive renovations to our homes. Can do good finish carpentry. Have made some simple furniture and built-ins. Had thought that'd best be done as a side business, and have a few customers. If that ever begins to approach what I can make as a salesman, I'll have a decision to make. Not close at this point, but that's what i'd do if I had the chance. I guess I mostly envy the obvious pride and accomplishment evident here. Not much griping about paperwork either. Anyone out there made this sort of change in their forties?
Anyone out there made this sort of change in their forties?
I've been doing this carpentry/cabinet thing for 25 plus years and I'm starting to think about a career change.
I've been thinking about moving into sales, no more heavy lifting, regular hours, hell yesterday was 100 degrees outside, that's starting to get to me. I see all the salesmen riding around in their airconditioned cars wondering if that's not for me.
I'll have to brush up on my "selling myself" technique, figure I can get some pointers from frenchy if I need some. I've always said that you tell a good salesmen, he's always selling himself!
If I make this transition I figure then I can build my own house, something I always wanted to do but because of the old saying, "shoe cobblers children never have shoes" I'd never get to my own but with the career change.........
Gotta give this some serious thought................ I think I may have just made my first sale!
Doug
Edited 6/14/2006 9:51 am ET by DougU
It's true there's a good bit of salesmanship required in any business, IF you're doing it right. Hadn't anticipated my question might sound like white collar whining. Have thought about this for years, and have moved closer to being able to consider making the move, what with a pretty well-outfitted shop, and a reasonable amount of experience, even if it is only an inch deep as they say. Hard work never scared me a bit, but your point is well taken.
TVC
I didn't mean to direct my post at you per se, just having a bit of fun.
I didn't take your post as white collar whining, hell our jobs are no more or no less important then the next guys, we just think so on this forum!
If your serious about making the transition then you should give it some thought.
I've always maintained that you should not work at a job that your not happy with.
My wife has had some tuff times lately at work, I told her I'd quit, why put up with shid that makes your life miserable, were only going to be here on earth for some 75-85 years, that's not all that long and I don't see any reason to waste any of it.
I'm bored with my work lately and if I thought something different would get me excited I'd switch in a New York minute, I've never been able to do the same thing for any length of time and right now I need a change!
Doug
Edited 6/14/2006 12:17 pm ET by DougU
No offense taken Doug. Have given it a lot of thought. Mostly what get's me jazzed about this is the way it occupies your mind. Have always enjoyed the problem-solving aspect of such things, and love the way a well-conceived project can make 12 hour saturdays pass like long lunch meetings. Lots of ways to make a living. Yours just looked a lot better, yesterday. Thanks.
then U can find that secret salesman website ...
and when U do ... let us know so we can go there and tell them all how to be better at sales!
problem is ... they'll all be drunk and miserable ... and divorced.
as that's pretty much how old salesmen end up.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Yea but the better salesemen can build houses better then most carps, at least thats what I read someplace!
Doug
But somehow the ability to post a picture is beyond them.
I like big butts and I can not lie.
:)
almost forgot ...
I thot of U today.
end of a long day ... figured one more piece of crown. PreFinished cab stock ... did a test scrap ... 45 looked just fine. Cut it ... hold it ... noticed the ceiling was way outta whack ... dropped one ened way to far ... can't bend it ... terrible fit.
so ... seeing as how I had nailed tight the other side of this inside corner ... and had planned a mitered/glued nice tight fit ... I'm screwed. Figure a 47.75 actually don't look to bad ... if I kinda sorta twist down the other side ... kinda sorta.
Get close ... decide I'll do a test cope piece to see if I can catch enough of the mitered side to look ok ... get out the coping saw ... and really wish I'd stopped at HD for those sanding disks for the grinder as I wasn't in a coping mood.
then I see the table saw ... what the hell ... it's just a test piece. If it looks like it'll work ... then I'll bother to cope. So ... I coped a fancy cab stock crown on the table saw. Figured I'd just try for close ... as it's a test piece.
That combo looked just fine ... so I miter ... and am set to cope with the hand saw ... and think ... I'm tired ... it's late .... and I just don't care no more. This is either gonna work or it's not ... either way ... I'm leaving here by 8pm!
so I fire up the tabel saw again ... and work it ... and ya know what?
U can do a damn fine coping job with a table saw set at full height!
first I was just gonna get down to a fingernail of unfinished wood left and utility knife it off ... decided to go for it ... and I was amazed.
tomorrow ... getting those disks ... the grinder ain't gonna scare me one bit now!
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Once you learn to cope with that grinder you'll never pick up a belt sander to grind a counter top in either.
I get 24 and 36 grit disks, get plenty of them, you'll know when they get dull, they start to burn the wood instead of cut it. Just like a blade hitting a nail, the disks will appear to be sharp but will lose that real sharp edge. Save a clunker in case you have to grind where you know you'll hit metal.
If I can figure out how to make my digital camera do the mini film thing I'll post it.
I'll have the wife read the manual, I cant read instructions, never makes sense to me! Had to have the wife figure out the lawn sprinklers today, I couldn't make heads or tales out of that shid, just as well of been in Spanish for all I was getting out of it.
I've never coped with the table saw but I wouldn't hesitate to do so, I've done a lot of free hand stuff with it and if you concentrate on what your doing you can avoid injuries.
Doug
Edited 6/15/2006 12:14 am ET by DougU
Guilty!
Please anybody in the Mpls. area show me how it's been a couple of years since pictures were last posted..
i read that on the internet ... it's just gotta be true.
did I tell U lately I love my pin nailer?
Thanks for pushing me out the door to buy a real gun.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
There was a thread over at knots regarding the micro pinners, I cast two absentee votes(you and your son)for the Max.
Quality is hard to beat
Doug
Jeff,
You really should know what you are speaking about before you slander anybody..
I've been married to my wife now for nearly 30 years.. I don't drink,, well not very much since I will have an occasional glass of wine or apertif, heck once in a blue moon I'll even drink a glass of Ameretto on the rocks watching a movie.
Miserable?
Nah, I don't think so, enjoy the challanges too much, sure I wish I could still blast down the staightaways inches from that Ferrarri and a foot or two ahead of the Aston Martin. I accept the loss of ability to do so and engaged in this challange.
Once finished in four or five years, I'll need to seek another challange.
"You really should know what you are speaking about before you slander anybody.."
?
I know plenty of drunk, divorced, miserable old salesmen.
what makes U think yer so special I'm talking about you?
anyways ... average sales time is 5 years?
Always nice to know I'm above average.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Jeff,
I know plenty of drunk miserable construction workers as well. In the past 15 years I've met only one person who was able to retire in the contruction industry.
The local carpenters union pays full benefits and wages at age 55 and I can honestly say I have almost never seen a carpenter working anywhere near that age. Not that it doesn't happen just that it's not anywhere near as common as 20 somethings or 30 somethings..
Congradulations on your longevity, however there is a considerable differance between selling a bit and then building a lot To be fair I don't know how much of your day is sales and how much is building..
"To be fair I don't know how much of your day is sales and how much is building.. "
I guess U missed it ...
I'm a self employeed remodeling contractor/carpenter.
my day is 100% sales AND 100% building.
otherwise ... the kids don't eat today ... and he don't eat next month either.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
jeff,
If you worked 24/7/365 you at most could work 100% now I'm going to assume that what you meant to say is that 50% of the time you are selling and 50% you are building..
The rest of your life is spent with your family or at rest, assuming that you never stop for a cold one or have a night out with the guys..
nope ...
my time on site ...
100% building and 100% selling.
I can work and talk at the same time.
I thot U knew how this sales stuff works?
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Jeff,
So your customers come to you at whatever job site you're at? Wow, you must be good.. all those miles I drive every year, and you have a better system.. Do your customers ever call you to get directions at least? I hope you do the courtious thing and stop making noise long enough to hear them.. But somehow you can still work 100%? Impressive.. Don't even stop for lunch or a bathroom break!
I bow to you.
someday ...
when I have time to indulge you ...
I'll sit down and explain "referals" ...
and yes ... future customers stop by all the time.
it's weird ... but most of my customers ....
seem to know people outside their family?
odd ... sometimes they're called "friends" ... sometimes ... "neighbors" ...
every now and then ... "family" ...
I know ... this can all get so confusing.
take your time ...
digest it.
and when these friends, family and/or neighbors stop by ... yes ... I am selling my #### off as I work like a busy little bee ....
U should oughta read a book er something on sales ...
I'm sure it's all covered somewhere.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Ahh trying to reason with Frenchy ehh? View Image
World famous yacht skipper, timber framer extrodinare. Suit wearing forklift peddler. You'll never make it kid. You're way to outclassed. Give it up. Go play with your toad.
I like big butts and I can not lie.
yer right ...
My frog IS a toad.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
You need to turn that line over to Rooster down on Bourbon street.
I like big butts and I can not lie.
U done down there or do we have hopes of making it back?
after I get this damn new(er) van dent filled in the bank account ... maybe I'll see what a cheap flight down would be?
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
We're done. No plans on going back, bad blood. I'll go back to vacation but not work.
I like big butts and I can not lie.
Gentlemen-
I apologize. I had no idea this'd go where it has. I feel as though I should wade in here, and help cover Frenchy's back. Don't like the French themselves much, since we bombed Kadafi, but I'm certain Frenchy is actually a good American. That's all I need to start.
Thing to keep in mind here is that salesmen are very much like independent contractors. We serve at the whim of the King, unless you ARE the King. But all REAL salemen (read that: "commissioned") "eat what we kill". Don't inform about the pressures of feeding the kids. Worry about it every day, and so far so good. Worry warms the tail, which keeps the feet moving.
I love this website.
-Tom
I'm scared now! I'm 54
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
DougU
Welcome to my profession.. Here's what you'll need to do to succeed. First the hours you work never include commuting time.. Sales never occur next door, (well not in my lifetime anyway) On an average year I put in between 50&60,000 miles. those are usually done prior to and or after the days selling..
Depending on where you get hired you may get paid for that milage (and your income reduced accordingly) or you may be compelled to pay for that yourself. If airline transport in involved see above..
Second, like construction you never start at the top.. build up a successful history that your next employer can be impressed by. It should be in a related or similar industry. Sort of like starting out in construction by doing manual labor, simple grunt stuff that takes muscle not skill to achieve.. Do that for a few years and you might be given a chance to to progress to the next step..In construction few are unwilling to share their knowledge, in sales techniques are often carefully guarded..
While this is going on. you need to realize that successful companies don't replace salesmen just because it's Tuesday and they have nothing else to do.. Sales managers are replaced and with them they replace the salesmen in order to get a crew loyal to new management.. What that means is that success is no promise of continued employment.. New management comes in and old salesmen go out.. In my career I was the top salesman 6 times and still fired, most recently because my paperwork was sub par..
Top management decides on a goal and replace those who fail to achieve that goal.. are history, if your manager fails you go shortly after he goes..
The goals set for you may be logical or not.. You may be asked to sell ice to eskimos or asked to sell ice in Arizona. goals may be the same!
Getting hired selling stuff nobody wants to buy is easy, although all it may teach you is frustration.. You can get hired at a store selling shoes or whatever but in essence you are a clerk and nothing more.. True selling doesn't happen untill you need to create a market and develope customers with nothing more than literature and a map.. Actually one more thing needs to occur, you need to produce a profit.. You get a percentage of profit over what something costs. from that you pay expenses and provide for your family..
Traditionally one person in over a hundred who starts out in sales remains doing it for more that 5 years.. Construction sales averages are much worse than that..
Once you succeed you'll welcome diverson like creating a home. For decades I restored vintage sports cars and raced them in Vintage races all over the country..
I eventually grew tired of taking a whole lot of money and turning into very expensive noise.. That plus a medical condition which meant I could no longer maintain my racing license prompted me to create this place.. Once this place is finished I will probably go back to vintage racing but now I will have to find a driver for my cars, not sure if it will be as much fun as driving a 35 year old car at speeds well over 150 mph an inch or less from another extremely expensive old car..
Second, like construction you never start at the top..
Screw that, if I cant start at the top then I'm staying right where I'm at!
Doug
DougU
Actually I lied,
You can start anyplace you want to.. I had a neighbor once who sold old airplanes to third world countries.. (707 etc. ) it was the only job he'd ever had.. (now ask about his credentals)
Frenchy,I don't envy the salesman. In fact, I don't envy the doctor, lawyer, teacher, executive, etc, etc (you get the idea). I've worked for all these and seen the problems that go along with their professions. If you can "sell" that is a gift. My uncle has it, my son has it, I don't. But I think you are wrong on one basic principle you have been flappin' about - that there is no criteria for good craftsmen - I think it's quite the opposite. I think you could be a lousy doctor, teacher, etc and the product is so intuitive or obscure that many wouldn't know. Sure, people give other people awards for this and that, but here's my point:The carpenter's work is about as OUT THERE for everybody to see as anything. If you want to find good work ask your guy in question to see his jobs. Talk to the customers. It's there. Fz
Fonzie,
I understand your point however, I don't believe I agree with it but I understand it at least..
A doctor either heals his patients or they die (or get worse and are referred to a specialist<G>) A lawyer either wins or loses his cases..
Actually it's a great deal more complex than that in the lawyer may be given a case impossible to win or a the same with a doctor... etc..
The same applies to the carpenter.. Imagine a carpenter given a chance to build a kitchen. Once the selection of cabinets is made, the only real challenge may be to correctly install them. On the other hand he may be given a real challenge where his creativety is called upon.
In once instance he may succeed in another instance he may fail.. You can trust he won't use his failure as a referance..
If a carpenter installs nice cabinets without obvious mistakes he will be given credit far beyond the actual challange.
I'm struggling to point out that it depends doesn't it?
cause Jesus was a carpenter.
I've been building for twenty one years and have been a general for 14 years. I've framed the smallest of decks to 7000 sq. ft. homes and thought to myself your exact question the other day.
I tried to imagine what I would be doing if I weren't a builder and I couldn't think of a job with more fulfillment for me than being a builder!
The smell of a fresh lumber pile! Making that perfect cut! Calc'n a roof out to the 1/16 and it coming out dead on! Subs complimenting you on how well your job is built and run! Clients and owners showing up and going "Whow! That is nice and way more than we had dreamed it would look like, We Love It!"
And the most important person I have to impress is myself! If I don't like it I change it and won't sleep well until it's right.
How do we know we're good at what we do? Owners, clients family and friends. If we're not they will be the first one's to tell you and it will spread like a wild fire.
If you love it, put your heart into, be the best at what you do and people will notice!
Howie
Carp Aprentice,
This profession picked me. I went to school for architecture because I loved creating spaces and good design. I worked over the summers with a carpenter to get the hands on experience so I could have a better understanding of what I was drawing. I then took a job as a draftman in a high end kitchen dealership for a while. They started sending me out with the installer to lend a hand. Next thing I knew , I was doing moslty carpentry.
I have to say though that I don't regret any of the turns my life took. Sure I've B & M'd plenty (still do). All in all, I enjoy the tangible hands on that nothing on paper could ever provide. I love leaving behind something that enhances a family or individual's life as they live in the structure I helped create. I love being a cog in a machine that creates something great by combining all of the skills of many craftsman and mechanics. Most creations are really collaborations and when a group of great , talented people are involved something is born that no one person could create. As important a role of the architect is, equally important are the roles of every other person involved. I just love that and in this business it is easy to see it happen.
Great thread,
Jay