DW wants to replacwe the sheet vinyl in the kitchen with wide boards. I stumbled into a source of T&G YP pine flooring in various widths at $0.50/sf. They have some nice stuff that has a face width of 8-1/2″, and he thinks he has some 10, 12, 6, and smaller. Also has 6″ v-groove boards that would work well on a ceiling.
So I’m thinking of using the 8″ boards. I plan to remove the sheet vinyl and the masonite, and lay the pine on a layer of tarpaper over the subfloor, using a floor nailer. But I think I need something else cuz of the width. Should I screw it once in the middle of the width, or twice about 1-1/2″ from the edge? And what should I plug it with? Contrasting plugs or try to match the grain?
Yes I know it depends a lot on the house style and the customer, but surely there are some wrong ways to do it.
“When asked if you can do something, tell’em “Why certainly I can”, then get busy and find a way to do it.” T. Roosevelt
Edited 12/15/2006 10:19 am ET by FastEddie
Replies
...First of all - $.50 a sq.ft.??? Where can I get my hands on some of that stockpile???
On to the wide board concerns - did you consider using (or at least supplementing the flooring nailer) with cut nails through the surface? Makes for a nice look, in my opinion. And no plugging necessary.
Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
Your Friendly Neighborhood Moderator
The story is that he bought a bunch of stuff from the Carolinas several years ago and has been storing it ina warehouse, and has realized that it's time to clean out. I stopped by after they closed, but saw a pile of the 8" on the loading dock, and it is nice stuff. Still clean colored, not aged, sharp edges, no obvious dings, very little cupping in the 8" width ... looked like maybe 1/16" cup, certainly slight enough that it could be flattened.
The only downside is that it's an hour from here, out in the country. You want me to see what else he has available? Send you a pic? I'm going down tomorrow to pick up a load. I saw a large pile of maybe 3" T&G PT pine boards, he said that would go for less than $0.50. When I say a pile, it is actually stacked neatly on sleepers. The PT was about 10-12 ft long (I didn't measure).
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
You're in VA, right? I doubt I could buy it and ship it with any substantial savings...Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
Your Friendly Neighborhood Moderator
You could drive DW down for some warm weather in Feb.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
JFink,
Low price on wood?
Go to any sawmill and check their prices.. I buy pine all of the time for 30 cents a bd.ft.
Heck lately many other woods as well are priced there.. I can buy millrun Basswood, hackberry, elm , boxelder, Pine, and any of the lower grades of less common woods like hickory, poplar, beech, ash etc, for as little as 15 cents.. I've bought knot free grades of maple heartwood for 30 cents.
Width depends on the tree but 20 inches wide isn't uncommon. 12 inches is fairly normal and the minimum seems to be 4 inches wide..
Better woods, more in demand woods are often sold for under a dollar a bd.ft. oak, etc.
high demand woods like black walnut/ cherry have been selling for as little as $1.65 a bd.ft. for FAS grade wood.. hard maple still commands a premium of another 20 cents for FAS all white..
Justin...pick me up on the way...I could use some more!
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
About five years ago I installed a pine wide plank floor in a kitchen. It was yellow pine from Mexico,and it was beautifull. We used red rosin paper as a barrier and slip over the sub floor. Also we cut expansion dados on the backsides of the planks parallel to the grain, about 34" wide about 34" apart about 18" deep. Then we sealed the backs with water based poly urethane. We screwed the floor down and pluged the screw holes with birtch plugs "side grain" as opposed to end grain and oriented the grains of the plugs to the grains in the flooring. Also ran the screwing schedule in an attractive orderly pattern .It came out nice and after seeing it yesterday it's still laying flat and holding up well.
The boards I saw have the same relief cuts on the back. How wide were your boards? How many screws across the width ... one or two?
I think the cut nails like Justin mentioned would be attractive, but DW wants a smooth floor. And I wonder how well the nails would hold the wood flat, although I have no experience with them so it might work well.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
FastEddie,
The reason for cuts in the back of wood flooring has nothing to do with cupping/warping or any other issue.. they are put there pure and simple for two reasons.. First it reduces the weight of the board for shipping purposes (I've heard they can ship 15% more per truck load) . Second many factories use waste wood to fire their boilers which generate electricity used to run the equipment.
I'm sure you'd like some proof so may I suggest that you look at wood flooring used in old homes from centuries ago and you will note no such grooves or relief..
I don't remember saying about the cuts affecting cupping, I was just stating that they are present ont he boards.
What about nail length?
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Hey FastEddie,I used Tremont's 2-1/2" with the same setup (except white pine rather than SYP). Depending on the look you're going for, have you looked at the common rosehead nails? Though they can be dustcatchers (but I mean, hey, how must dust can they really catch?), they look very nice in a finished floor.soj
FastEddie,
How thick is the sub floor? That determines the length of the nail.. In some cases you'll see nails at joists and while that is a little far apart (even with 12 inches OC joists) if the sub floor isn't adequite, you may be forced to do that.
another appraoch if you cannot do a decent job of face nailing would be to screw from underneath.. Drill holes larger than the screw size (do it from on top to save sawdust from falling in your eyes and make drilling all of the holes easier0 and using the proper length screws install from below. When you install the screws be carefull to center the screws in the holes. the reason will be to allow for wood shrinkage and expansion.. If you do not allow for that the wood will crack when it swells or shrinks.
Since I will be using hardwoods I can use the fine thread screws, I don't think that pine has enough strength to use fine thread screws so I'd use coarse thread sheet rock screws in your case..
3/4 ply subfloor. I refuse to go in the crawlspace, so it will all be done from the room side.
I was thinking of using 1-1/4" sheetrock screws, which should be just long enough for the plywood. Cheap too.
If I can convince DW to see nails, then I will probably use 2-1/2" cut nails, two per joist, plus the floor nailer. Other wise I'll get 2-1/2" deck screws and a million plugs.
If I use cut nails, what is the finishing sequence? Lay the boards with the floor nailer, sand smooth, stain, cut nails, and then varnish? If I install the cut nails first, what happens during sanding?
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
FastEddie,
If you use sheetrock screws (someplace piffan is fuming ) you will have to counterbore them and than put plugs over them, nobody will like the look of exposed screw heads. That is extremely labor intensive.. I did less than 1000 sq ft and it took me a month of my spare time.. A month on my knees with an aching back etc. You make the plugs with a plug cutter from your scrap wood, make them way too long. A plug cutter can be bought at any of the big box stores for about $6.00 Do not buy plugs I made a zillion and had less than one day of my spare time. Since I used more than one plug cutter (you actaully wear them out when you cut a zillion hardwod plugs. ;-)
Once glued in place for a day you chisel them off level with the floor.. recess the screws into the floor well and then glue the plugs in place. ( I spent a little time and tried to align the grain as well as select plugs close to the color of the wood in the area..) it's a rarely noticed detail which is exactly why I did it.. Since I was doing black walnut I had to use stainless steel or risk issues of rot and corrosion but you won't need to with Pine..
It only costs a tiny little bit more (A bottle of glue and a plug cutter) considering that you won't need to rent a flooring nailer it will wind up cheaper..
If you want you could buy a contrasting wood say redwood or something and make the plugs a contrasting color for a differant look..
If you do it now durng the winter you won't need to jamm the wood together.. it will swell in the summer and close up any gaps.. You need the gaps otherwise in the summer as wood swells from humidity it will cup badly.
I assume that you have the router bits used to make tongue and groove floring.. if not you can do as I did to maintian the wide board look as much as possible..
Instead of tongue and groove I cut a simple groove in the edge of each board I then made a spline and slipped it in place.. You need either a spline or a tongue and groove otherwise when the wood shrinks in the winter you can see the rosin paper underneath..
Anyway if you use cut nails you slightly recess them below the surface that way when you are doing the finish sanding you won't get shiners.
For an unbelievably nice finish may I suggest that you use shellac? They sell it at the big box stores. it's cheap. but you need to buy two gallons of denatured alcohol for each gallon of shellac..
shellac is a wonderful finish.. Goes on really easy.. gives you depth and gloss without a plastic look. If you are interested I'll give you full details..
Shellac can be touched up easier than any other finish made.. just put another coat of shellac over it.. The alcohol will semi desolve the layer below and blend in flawlessly . If you get a scratch (shellac is one of the harder finishes and my 150 pound Newfoundland with untrimed claws hasn't been able to scratch it yet) you simply wipe the scratch with denatured alcohol and scratch-be-gone!
(you aren't even required to say abra cadabra!)
I know the myth that water makes shellac turn white, well it does, if you leave it there for a while. But I use a slightly damp cloth to clean it and have never had an issue. If it turns white then you get some denatured alcohol and wipe it off. I have a piano finished in shellac and after 70 plus years it started to check,, I wiped off the old shellac (it took about 8 hours to do)..and it's ready for me to put a new coat on (can't seem to find the round-to-it's)
Shellac is a very safe finish, it's what's on nearly every pill that you take so it's gotta be safe.. The denatured alcohol is the alcohol that you drink with 2% stuff in it so highschool kids can't drink it.. What that 2% is varies, some of it is pretty benign while sometimes it's nasty.. just open a window when you are doing it and it will be fine.. Expose yourself to too much and you'll have the effects of a hangover..
Shellac dries insanely fast.. 15 minutes after you finish it's ready to be sanded.. I avoid walking on it for at least 8 hours but have walked on it in 15 minutes and not left tracks..
You should put a wash coat of shellac on the pine because Pine absorbs stain so unevenly. Once given a wash coat it takes stain evenly and results in a much nicer less blotchy look.
I assume that you are aware that pine is soft and will quickly show character, with shellac it will be easy to touch up and the charcter will look like character not a badly scratched floor.
Finally when you do the finish sanding please don't rent a drum sander!
They have these big square vibrating sanders that are easy for us amatuers to use.. I'd guess they are about 18"x24" and they have several differant grit papers.. If you go in steps to the finest one they have the resulting finish is perfect!
easy to use, pretty well idiot proof, and relatively fast.
I was kidding about the piffin screws.
The cut nails look like they have heads. Will they sink in the pine?
Here's what I got today. 312 sf of 1x4 v-groove for the ceiling, almost all of it still in the plastic, and 293 sf of 1x9 for the floor. The floor boards actually measure 8-3/4" on the face. All for $300.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Ed, I might interject here jus a wee bit...
Please don't use drywall screws , that will haunt you.
The reason old flooring never had back relief, is because they never had Weinig 4 head moulding machines to squirt it out at 100 LF a minute, that relief IS there for airspace, not weight on trucks. It DOES relieve some inherent stresses in the wood..that is why it is called a "Relief" Same as on trim.
I will go back to MY preferences and say, rosin is a good choice for backer, but so is glue along the edges..kinda defeats the paper Idea.
I bought nails from Tremont, I got 2.5" Copper Rose heads, meant to be proud, not flush. I have used cuts before, both before sanding and after, depends on what ya want to see.
Frenchy has some valid points about the plug cutters and such, but a few of us will differ.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I have irriatable Vowel syndrome.
So are you saying that I could edge glue all the boards and omit the paper?
If you nail first then sand, what happens to the heads?
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Yes, if the subfloor is sound and clean, a bead of PL an inch from each edge is fine and in my mind better.
As to the cut nails, predrill after the floor is laid and glued/nailed in the tongues, and finished. Whack in the cuts in a pleasing patteren AND the joists ( but be prepared for hitting subflooe nails in te process and then cutting a cut nail shorter and using it as a "show nail", with a dab of PL).
I 'd not sand over the cuts as they will stain with metal bits the surrounding area, and if ya finish with a waterbase poly, you wil show rust stains.
I made a punch outta a pc of bar stock, to set the cuts just a tad below the final finish, after sanding, add the nails, set em deep and finish...word of caution, WASH the nails ina bucket of paint thinner and dry them, they have manufacturing oils on them.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I have irriatable Vowel syndrome.
that relief IS there for airspace, not weight on trucks.
I wanted to comment on that as well but you know me, I dont like to say anything controversial!
The place I work at just moved up from a 4 head to a 6 head Weinig because apparently you can leave the relief heads in, just crank them out of the way, to do S4S.
Doug
I ran a million mile of flooring..that comment just got me..
LOL
Merry holidays Doug, I hope Iowa is well with you back in town.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I have irriatable Vowel syndrome.
Sphere,
Why wouldn't you use screws? Simply because they are slower?
Or are you saying you wouldn't use dry wall screws? I understand the reluctance people have about hanging cabinets for example with them however the only loading in a floor isn't in shear it's in tension just as they were designed..
I suspect pine flooring is only marginally harder than sheetrock so the tension would be similar.. the screw head would pull thru long before the torque was too great to snap off..
Frankly I would set up my drill press and lay out my lines (I'm anal because I like all the screw holes to line up) ;-) Anyway a few hours and I'd have all the screw holes set, counterbored and plugs cut for an area that small The only real time involved would be to run screws in and with a clutch head on your drill you could easily do it without any risk of screw breakage..
You must live in a place differant from me.. the only time I see wood edge glued is those prefinsihed snap in fake wood pieces that are designed to float.
I did not say edge glue the flooring, I SAID a bead of adhesive about an inch FROM the edge on the subfloor.
DRYWALL screws are called that for a reason, they are for drywall..they SNAP under ANY other load..sideways, crossways, tension, draw, or just in the box, they SUCK for any wood to wood attachment w/o out preplanning that exceeds the savings.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I have irriatable Vowel syndrome.
Sphere,
OK first my confession, I've used sheetrock screws for a variety of applications.. usually temporary setting but on occasion more perminant. I understand their limitations and gauge accordingly..
However for putting flooring down especially if the screws are installed from below they are excellant.. of coarse you need to predrill but you should do that for any screw installed in hardwood.. at that point only the thread is actaully doing any work.. the shank of the screw simply locates the threads.. Flooring is at most an inch thick most is 3/4 screws installed to half depth means there is only 3/8ths of an inch of screw thread in the wood.. a screw installed in a predrilled hole has 5 threads engaged, not nearly enough to snap off the head.
If you are snapping off the heads then you aren't predrilling and you are simply asking for failure. hardwood will split if a screw is jammed in without predrilling.. when used in pine they are very nearly at the same load they were designed for.. I can easily run a sheetrock screw thru sheetrock without snapping the heads off. I can do the same when I am installing it in predrilled pine.. the head of the screw will pull right thru the pine..
what is the only load is on flooring?
Tension! As sheetrock load is.. there is no shear force. all you are doing is holding wood in place keep it from sliding around.. while nails are the normal method of securing flooring they are far from the only method employed..
Sphere,
Old wide plank flooring never had relief cuts in the back because you don't need them.. properly installed wide plank flooring without reliefs is no more prone to cupping than planks with relief in them.. If the prime reason weren't for shipping reasons, why would narrow strip flooring have relief cuts in them?
Old wide plank flooring never had relief cuts in the back because you don't need them..
They didnt have the relief cuts for several reasons, 1) they didnt have a good/fast way to do it, wasnt aware that it needed it 2)they were using old growth wood, a lot more stable then second, third.......growth wood!
I have some antiques that have 22" wide boards, doubt that any 22" piece of wood from 2nd or 3rd growth wood is going to stay as stable as that old table top of old growth.
If you think that the relief cuts are to cut down on the weight you should give some serious though to your thinking. <G>
Even though the relief cuts are done at the same time as the wood is ran through the machine it still cost money to do it and I dont see any manufacturer doing something that cost them more just to save a little weight on the truck. Doubt the offset would equal out.
Doug
DougU
two reasons I've been given why flooring has relief grooves.
first as we've discussed it's to save shipping weight the second is to provide wood for their boilers, many larger plants use waste wood to fire boilers to run the generators. to provide electricity to operate th machinery..
If relief grooves were really needed then why are many old floors hundreds of years old devoid of them? Why does narrow strip flooring have them?
Check with Carlise flooring you'll notice that they don't have relief grooves on the back side and they specialize in wide plank flooring..
"Check with Carlise flooring you'll notice that they don't have relief grooves on the back side and they specialize in wide plank flooring.."Yes they do. Eastern white pine, wide boards, Installed in '98.soj
Welcome to the jungle.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I have irriatable Vowel syndrome.
Sometimes ya gotta live on the edge. :^)soj
Sometimes ya realize the edge ain't know fun no mo,and ya settle in to mediocrasy, and it's inherant foibles.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I have irriatable Vowel syndrome.
Sphere, good point on washing the nails. Never would have thought about that.
Frenchy, I like your plywood idea. Thx.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
I did my entire house with 8" as the minimum width up to better than 20" and half the house I PL Premiumed' to the Advantech subloor. The other half the house I just laid em over rosin paper.
All floors I nailed with Rosehead nails flush w/ the surface. Better than two years later all floors are equally perfect! Nothings cupped or lifted.
I used my house for a personal testing grounds so I could keep watch.
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
We are pissin in the wind...I am done wit him, cuz my log house is rotten from the inside.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I have irriatable Vowel syndrome.
We are pissin in the wind...
Yea, I know! I'm going outside to bang my head on the brick wall cause at least I know that I can accomplish something with that. <G>
Doug
Like a deer in the head lights or a crack head I hadda respond..my bad.
I like where Frenchy lives, but his source of info and exp with real life is wavering on questionable sources..
I have a handle on flooring, it just so happens that is what I am making in the shop right now, well, not making as much as refurbishing.
Hand planed T&G G1S 14 and wider SYP flat sawn, it had many yrs worth of paper ( wall, bible, and news). So my intent is re-cycling, re-t&G if needed, I have a Stanley 55 and also a wood sucker that is real close to the tongue cut, the groove is easy.
But the reasoning behind Frenchy's admitted ingnorance is astounding.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I have irriatable Vowel syndrome.
Frenchy, don't get me going..I LIVE and BREATHE in a HOUSE that is LOG...with old flooring, on grade..Hickory and White oak, no back relief, because it is OLD..the frigging T/G was done witha PLANE for crying out loud, do you think the old guys would have made reliefs wiyh a frikking hand plane? Hell, they didn't plane the back side at all, they just wallowed out over a high joist to make it FLAT, they didn't have SANDERS then.
Your misinformation astounds me.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I have irriatable Vowel syndrome.
Sphere,
I haven't disagreed with what you said. Of course they didn't relieve the backs of old plank flooring! Yes they tongue and grooved it it by hand back in the old days and yes those floors lie perfectly flat for centuries.
Misinformation? Maybe you can ask Carlise flooring who specialize in wide plank flooring why they don't relieve the backs of their planks if relieving the backs prevents cupping..
Frenchy
Isnt Carlise recycling old wood? Thats my understanding of it.
Old growth wood is not the same creature as 2nd 3rd or 4th growth wood!
I'd like to know where you got the info about the relief cut being used for the firing of the boiler. Someone is having a laugh at your expense. And the weight issue, you gotta be kidding me!
Doug
DougU
While Carlise will lay old growth wide planks that is not their normal or typical job. They buy wide planks from a source/sources (didn't ask) it may be second growth or whatever. My planks are up to 22 inches wide (all my sawmill can saw) so there are plenty of nice large trees available, a while ago the back cover of Fine Home Building had a whole room that was covered with just 4 planks of Black walnut if I'm not mistaken they each were 54 inches wide.. Such planks would be available here too if a sawmil had the capability of sawing trees that big.. The bigest place that I know of has a top and bottom blade and if needed they could saw up to 46 inches. I believe that Growthe and Growthe have the biggest blades available in order to saw the 54 inches.
wieght is an issue of course!
If a truck can take another $8,000 worth of flooring per load what cost accountant wouldn't jump at the chance? $8,000 increase in sales for maybe a few dollars worth of sharpening and higher energy costs? Especially if the cost per bd.ft. is only tiny fractions of a penny? I've never asked any of the sawmills I visit what their sharpening costs are per bd.ft. I suspect that it varies tremendously depending on where they are in the chain, finish mills would certainly have higher costs per bd.ft. than sawmills. Next time I'm in a finish mill I'll ask. (Not all mills are willing to share such information since it is considered propriatory)
Sawdust is tremoundously valuable. My sawmill makes more profit from selling the bark and sawdust than it does selling all the lower grade woods combined.. Cherry in particular is extremely valuable, both chemical companies need it to make medicene and mushroom growers use it for a special kind of mushroom.. it's also extracted for the liquor industry..
However many of the larger sawmills use sawdust exclusively to power boilers. Blanden in Northern Minnesota for one.. There is also a small mom and pop outfit in southern Minnesota that does just that as well as a milling firm (they make molding for one of the big box stores)
Frenchy
I'm not debating wheather or not the companies use the saw dust to burn/sell or whatever but your kidding yourself and trying to do so with the rest of us if you think that they are taking that back side out of the flooring to save the saw dust! Thats boarderline absurd to even think, not to mention repeat!
I dont know if your familiar with a company called Kinze Manufactuing, fairly large company, maybe 1000 workers, they make farm equipment and are located along I-80 here in Iowa. They heat their whole place with old pallets and junk wood. When I worked at Amana Refrig. all the pallets were sent up a conveyer belt to a large grinding machine where the chewed up wood would be sent over to Kinze to be burnt for heat, An excellent way to get something out of the otherwise junk wood. But your thinking is that the junk wood is being created solely for the purpose of heating this building. Not true, its an after though or byproduct to something that is already there, just like the sawdust from the backsides of base, case, and flooring, just to mention a few!
When we make door jambs, base board, and casing we do back cuts on them, not to get the valuable saw dust but to prevent warping or the wood, or to stablelize it. Thats the same reason that everybody does it. Its a tried and true thing to do, why cant you understand that.
I'm fairly libral with my political thinking as you are but now I see why the conseratives must be pulling the hair out of their heads when arguing politics with you! Your persistant thats for sure! Its also starting to make me second guess my beliefs. <G>
Hope to not have offended you but this time your way off base, or flooring if your will.
Doug
*snork*..you bit, as did I. Sometimes ya just can't help yrself, huh?
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I have irriatable Vowel syndrome.
Big D ... got a Q for you on my wood. I have been looking it over, and have found it is actually three widths: 8-5/8, 8-3/4, and 8-7/8. There are several pieces of each size, so one option would be to run complete rows of a size and keep going.
The other option would be to rip them all to the same size. I would prefer to rip off the groove side, but I am concerned that the tongues are dot necessarily consistent so just setting the fence and blindly ripping might make it worse.
So maybe I rip off the tongue side, and rout a new groove, and use a slip tongue.
What would you do?
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
IF...IF..the T&G is sound ( I.E, well matched) I'd run the room with one width per run...if the T&G are questionable OR you cant optimize the room plan, cull the bad stock and rip the TONGUE edge ( being as it is easier than milling a groove, in the edge of a wide stock, against a TS fence) .
Milling a groove may take a feather board ( depends on the legth and out feed support) an can be dicey for alighnment, where as a tongue can be tweaked.
I have a wedge T&G router set up, matched bits...but the set up can be as long as the run of milling, If worse comes to worse, set up a dado head and wallow out a groove, and spline it like Frenchy said..he was correct in that aspect.
My wedge T&G does not allow for gappage, it hammers home tight...I can't see a reason to do differently on the install, fark the season and yes, it should be in the final climate prior to fastnening, but leave a GAP? No way.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I have irriatable Vowel syndrome.
If I cut a new groove, I'll use a handheld router. I have a nice Bosch bit that cuts a square T&G.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Well then reference off one face, and off set the joint to allow more sandings, if you think it will be advantageous.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I have irriatable Vowel syndrome.
I was so caught up in the relief/screw debate that I'm not sure that you really mean to use a hand held router to T&G your boards. ( kinda like a Penthouse letter beginning ). If you were pulling my leg then sorry I'm slow on the uptake. But it would be very hard to T&G groove accurately by hand held router. Use a big router in a table.
I was serious abiout using a hand-held router. Here's why: if the boards are bowed concave, then I would have to press them flat on the router table. If they spring up, then the groove will be too close to the face. By using a hand-held, the contact area is smaller it it will be less affected by the bow.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
The boards you are laying on the floor should be pretty darn flat anyway. I'd rely on feather boards and a table instead of worrying about tilting a handheld router, but then I'm not very good with a router free hand.
fwiw...non of my wide plank is T&G. Its all flush edges. I wanted it that way.
HAPPY HOLIDAYS:)http://http://www.woodstockanddeadseascrolls.net/files/track09c.mp3<
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
I think Eddie said this was in his kitchen. That would be a dangerous place to not have the edges tied in alignment.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Well...its been two years in all the rooms..kitchen, bathrooms etc etc...and so far so good. I'll let you know before I sell this place. It was a good test.
The glue test also is under watch. Two years and it doesn't seem to make a differance. The rooms w/ and without the PL Premium....
All areas of the country are different but this is how its going so far here.
HAPPY HOLIDAYS:)http://http://www.woodstockanddeadseascrolls.net/files/track09c.mp3<
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
OK, it's the glue holding down evenly.it also depends on who is living in it. Some kitchens see a lot of water on the floor, others barely any
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
one other thing....I even filled a bunch of the joints with Elmers wood putty and even "most" of that stayed put which really shocked the sh!d outta me!!!
HAPPY HOLIDAYS:)http://http://www.woodstockanddeadseascrolls.net/files/track09c.mp3<
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
I would make sure first that the bit you have will make a fitting match to the wood edges you have. I've seen several sizes and patterns of T&G bits
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
DougU
well I'm not sure why we are in disagreement.. you've told me of a company that burns wood scraps. I've told you about secondary markets for wood sawdust, it has value .
You disagree about the value of shipping out more wood per truck.. I said that it can mean say $8000 per truck load of sales and since that's not a small consideration why wouldn't it be done?
You agree with me that in the past wide plank boards were used without cupping.. You claim that currant growth wood is more prone to cupping and there I'll agree to a limited degree.. Some wood does grow faster especially if it's plantation grown.. SOME! Not all. I've got wood here that exactly replicates old growth wood. tight growth rings and all. It may have been on the north side of a steep hill fighting for survival all of it's life with other trees.. Just like old growth wood did.. Harvested when mature it still may have been over 200 years old.. (I counted 270 growth rings in one of the oaks I had sawn down) Many, many, were over 200!
I digress,
If we were using all plantation grown wood for flooring I might give you partial credit and admit that part of the reason for relief grooves was plank stability although I would first demand someone to expalin to me why removing wood is likely to make it more stable and less prone to cupping. Thin boards are easier to flex and cup than thick timbers are..
I visit too many sawmills that sell hardwoods to flooring makers to ever accept that all flooring is plantation grown..
As for back cuts and relieving may I suggest (only a suggestion, not a well thought out fact) that it may be done because the wood may cup but because it's got back cuts it's easier to force back into flat..
I mean you must admit that if the wood has back cuts in it and it somehow started to curl a few well placed nails would flatten it right out wouldn't it? Much harder to do with a solid board.. Try it yourself, take a cupped solid board and try to flatten it out with a few nails.. can't be done right? but with back cuts it would be possible wouldn't it?
well I'm not sure why we are in disagreement.. you've told me of a company that burns wood scraps. I've told you about secondary markets for wood sawdust, it has value .
I know the sawdust has value but its that value thats being questioned here.
I cant for the life of me see where a sawmill would actually try to increase the amount of waste, and thats what it is, to increase its profits.
Yes the mills can sell the sawdust, that we can agree on. Here's where we probably disagree, the price of that sawdust is minor compared to the money that it takes to create it. When they sell the saw dust they are just recouping, or maximizing their profits if you will, which is fine but thats all it is. We produce a large dumpster of sawdust on a regular bases, some days we will fill a large dumpster in one day if were milling crown moulding. We are lucky if we can sell that dumpster of sawdust for $125 to some horse breader, but we pay $150 for the guy to come haul it away and bring the dumpster back, so in that case we only spend $25 to dispose of the waste, which is better then spending $150!
Your almost making the claim that the sawdust is their primary product when its not, its a byproduct of the manufacturing process. Thats where my claim that I dont see any manufacturer increasing there byproduct, its just not profitable.
I'm sure I could figure out the weight that is saved by taking that little back cut off of flooring, hell thats jr. high mathamatics, but theres a cost associated with that process. I maintain that that cost out weighs the value of the sawdust and the subsequent savings on shiping.
Figuring all that savings, cost associations and accountings is a lot more then I signed up for so I'm going with my inital thoughts on this subject for now. I will however alter my thinking if you prove otherwise. <G>
The subject of why they back cut the wood is another problem that we are having.
Yes, making a board thinner does allow the carpenter to flex the board into submission. I dont however think that taking 1/8" off the backside of oak flooring will provide you with enough thining of the board to do what your propose.
Just for an experiment try taking a piece of oak flooring with the back cut and see if you can twist it, it really doesnt have as much "give" as you think!
I dont know at what time in home building that the concept of backcutting/relief cutting happened, hell if I was alive I was probably paying attention to women when it happened, thats sort of a sad thing when you think about it, I've gone from that to sitting here argueing with you on the net!
The act of relief cutting and when it happened will be left to some one else to discuss but it did happen and it happened for a reason, and that reason had nothing to do with the aquisition of sawdust! It was determained that the relief cuts helped stablelize the wood.
I cant argue the merits of your wide plank flooring, I read that Andy C. has had good results with his and I dont know if they are old growth or 3rd 4th cuttings, not real sure why any of that happened, I'd need more specifics to decide.
I obviously have nothing to do this morning and your probably not going to conceed anything regarding the subject so why dont we end it at that. For the sake of your feelings and others getting a good laugh at your expense, I wouldnt advise going around saying that the mills are making extra sawdust to increase their profits!
Doug
DougU
Selling a product is a matter of finding a market and making it profitable for everyone. Slaughter houses sell everything but the squeal <G > things which you and I can find no value for.. However given enough volume and a steady market waste becomes profit.. Waste Managment advertises they generate enough electricity from garbage to power millions of homes. (I suspect that they also sell the resulting electricity rather than give it away) <G>
My sawmill is relatively small, milling only about 2 million bd.ft. of hardwods a year, yet they have found mrkets for what you consider waste.. I gave you examples of Blandon.. you gave me another example.. all we are discussing now is the price..
In addition if you can lighten the load a given truck can carry more product without being overwieght. Hopefullly we are in agreement on that! If you can haul out one more pallet of flooring per load that means the sawmill will sell one more pallet per truck load. The number I've used is 15% Heck maybe the owners didn't know what he was speaking about or wanted to mislead me ( I doubt it, he's a tough old Swede who's always been straight with me. a very nice guy once you've proven yourself to him..)
More product sold + an additional income stream - The cost of sharpening = profits..
""If a truck can take another $8,000 worth of flooring per load what cost accountant wouldn't jump at the chance? $8,000 increase in sales for maybe a few dollars worth of sharpening and higher energy costs? Especially if the cost per bd.ft. is only tiny fractions of a penny? ""Care to show me the math involved in that statement? I am a little slow with numbers.
Mill pays $1.00 sg. ft. for raw material.
Start with the mill selling their finished product at say $2.00 sq.ft. to a wholesale outlet (who resales it for 4.50 sg.ft.), product is 1 x 4 x 3/4 T+G, back relief is two grooves 1/8" x 3/4" Assume 50lbs. a cu. ft. weight
How much sawdust are they going to get for the effort? (In cu. ft. and $ amount)
How big a unit (in cu. ft.) of finished flooring are they going to adding to the truck to add $8000.00 of value added load to that truck , and what will it add to the weight of the load (since trucking is paid for by weight)
Edited 12/17/2006 9:45 pm ET by dovetail97128
Well there you go, you obviously dont know how much saw dust is worth now do you!
Cant wait to make an azz of myself tomarrow morning at our regular Mon. morn meeting and letting my boss know that he's giving that dumpster load of saw dust away at $150. Thats gold in there!
Mill pays $1.00 sg. ft. for raw material.Start with the mill selling their finished product at say $2.00 sq.ft. to a wholesale outlet (who resales it for 4.50 sg.ft.), product is 1 x 4 x 3/4 T+G, back relief is two grooves 1/8" x 3/4" Assume 50lbs. a cu. ft. weightHow much sawdust are they going to get for the effort? (In cu. ft. and $ amount)How big a unit (in cu. ft.) of finished flooring are they going to adding to the truck to add $8000.00 of value added load to that truck , and what will it add to the weight of the load (since trucking is paid for by weight
My college major was mathamatics and if one of my proffesors had givin me that as a story problem on a test I would have gotten up and walked out the door, I know when I'm licked!
Hope your catching my sarcasm!
Doug
Edited 12/18/2006 12:02 am ET by DougU
I always was bad at mathematics, always needed help with it. Nice to know some had success with it. My biggest stumbling block was understanding how one can substract almost nothing and yet add so much to the final answer. Care to try to rewrite the problem in a manner that everybody including frenchy can understand and answer?
;-)
I got it! Call on me teacher! Me, me!
Assuming the sawdust packs perfectly in the same density as the original material, and assuming they run 1 million lf of 1x4, the mill will recover $3,460 in sold sawdust.
I'm bored this morning.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
the mill will recover $3,460 in sold sawdust.
I think we can except that as the answer, partially because theres know way to disprove it and partially because nobody cares! <G>
Doug
I think we can except that as the answer
I would have felt better if you had said "accept". Now my feelings are hurt.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Ed
I would have felt better if you had said "accept".
You'll notice in a post way back that I mentioned that I was a math major in college, theres a reason for that!
I used to thank God that Brownbagg was on here so that I wasnt the worst speller here, but now I've noticed that he's gotten much better and I'll soon be relegated to the bottom, once again!
Doug
You don't use spel chech?
I do if I remember to disable my internet security but once I start typing a response its to late, wont allow me to do it midstream!
I know you were joking but usually I try to run the check but.........
I blame those damn nuns back in grade school, they didnt teach me anything!
Doug
You have a ways to go before you catch up to my record for typo errors anyways
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Doug
I use the spell check at the bottom of the response area, works with my security on for what ever reason. And yes I was joking, the nuns taught me not to stare at the girls patent leather shoes. ;-)
I use the spell check at the bottom too but my security is set to high and the only way that I can post a pic or use spell check is if my security is disabled. I dont know why but thats how mine works.
Whats really bad is when I type up a long response and want to add a pic and forget to disable the security. I have to redo the entire post, after disableing of course!
Doug
I've never seen spell checker. You hogging it all to your self?;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Actually I think mine is a Slovenian.. ;-)
I noticed that your errors increased when you left Tejas.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Exactly!
It was probably something in the food.
Doug
Piffin and I got ya lookin' good.. keep on spellin'....
so far the only definative thing I gotten out of this thread is that you and Dovetail are gluttons for punishment...
or both of ya are bored outta yur sculls....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
or both of ya are bored outta yur sculls....
Yea, I think its that one!
Doug
FasTEddie,
Neat that you can figure that so quickly, But wouldn't it really depend on a variety of things like specis of wood, pine is lighter than oak for example. In addition I pointed out that there are often more than two grooves on the back side of a piece of flooring, that's normal 2 1/4 inch strip flooring. I rarely see 4 inch wide flooring..
A couple of other points, what is the market value of the wood given.. You do know differant species of wood sell for differant prices don't you?
In addition I suspect, but don't know that differant buyers pay differant prices. One of my sawmills customers, arrives with a truck that is completely tarped and sealed while others drive off spilling some of the load. Apparently they hold differant values for each Product..
As I said my sawmill claims they make more profit from the sawdust and shavings of Cherry than they make on all of the lower grades combined.
Ya know what Frenchy? I was playing along when I created that answer. I used the information provided in your post, to the best of my understanding. But to tell you the truth, it's gone too far. Please don't bring it up again.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Dovetail,
Well first not all flooring costs a buck a sq. ft. Hard maple costs for over $2.00 a sq.ft all white FAS grade and sells for over $4.00 just as an example..
The value of the sawdust also varies a great deal.. Sawmills near major cities or near markets where there is a demand for it can sell it for a great deal.. I mentioned my sawmill makes more profit from the sale of cherry sawdust than they get for all the lower grades combined. I cannot remember exactly what they recieve but next visit there I'll try to remember to ask.
Blandon for example that burns all of it's sawdust to generate electricity would have a totally differant number based on what electricity costs, how much they generate and other such equations. I sincerly doubt they'd be willing to share those numbers with me. Next visit though I'll ask..
I could be real accurite and look up exactly what various woods weigh and subtract 15% and give you the tally of each wood, each grade, etc. Add back in the value of sawdust and you'll have a pretty good calculation of just how much relief cuts add to the profit of a company..
Or I could ask you a question.. How does making a board thinner make it more stable. Or does it make it easier to flatten out once out in the field? You see all of my thin boards are real prone to cupping and other problems while thick timbers seldom ever cup.. They may twist bend and bow but if they do you cannot make them flatter buy just nailing them down. Thin boards? Sure they are easy to flatten..
Try rereading my post and working out a solution, all figures were provided simply for the use in the problem ,change the provided #'s to suit your taste.
Show me with figures how you arrive at the $8000.00 value added to a truck load by removing 2-3/4" x 1/8" grooves out of the back of the boards. You would have to remove either that amount of cu. ft from the load that isn't grooved or that amount of weight. Same thing really.
If you can't do it then I would suggest you might remove that section of your post where you stated that as a reason for the groves.
I am not arguing the $ value of sawdust and wood chips, mills around me pay there entire payroll costs off the stuff. Hell, a decade ago the hills of Ore. were stripped of oak by portable chippers for the overseas market.
$ per bd. ft. (sg. ft) costs for raw material don't translate well into the finished products. I see timber sales all day long around here where timber on the stump is sold for $350-$500 per thousand bd. ft.
Hmm, now I go to my local yard and buy the stuff for the same price or less. Must be a whole lot of people working for nothing here .
dovetail,
I know exactly what you mean, many sawmills have cut way back on sawing with currant prices so low and stumpage prices what they are, there is too little for most sawmills to remain profitable.. Sales to them lately has been non existant, in fact the only time they call me now is to sell equipment back.
Some really decent wood is being sold for pulp around here since pulp is the only major market lately for wood.. even pallet mills have an over abundance of wood sitting around and they tend to be extremely tight with wood inventories..
I use 15% simply because that is the number I've been given. Looking at commerical flooring I don't see only two grooves in it, I suppose it varies from maker to maker and wood variety how many grooves and how deep they are.. If I do all the research for you are you prepared to accept it?
I'm sure lower grade woods and more common woods have less savings than higher grade and more valuable woods do. But frankly It doesn't matter if it's $8000 or $800 per load additional sales. More sales at the same costs is always a good deal..
""Add back in the value of sawdust and you'll have a pretty good calculation of just how much relief cuts add to the profit of a company..""
Minus the cost of the machine, upkeep , labor to operate, expense to run, cost of the accountant who figured this system out, cost of handling the sawdust generated by the specific machine that made the groves.
frenchy, if they want to increase profits they first go to narrow kerf saws, then move the lazer guide a millimeter to the left and sell a board that much narrower, each cut generates a portion of one more board.
I remember when a 2x4 was 1 3/4 green and 1 5/8 dry.
Dovetail.
Now we are in agreement.. If your yield is greater per log your profits go up! Since the kerf of most sawmills is now proprietary information and they get really excited if you attempt to measure it It's apparent that thin kerf is the way to go. That along with some of the lazer guilded computer controlled cutting programs out there can generate a much higher yield.. Blandon for example has such a system..
However the University of Minnesota' s expert on sawmill technology runs an old fashioned thick Kerf manual adjustment sawmill in Southern Minnesota because at the volume he saws he simply cannot justify the cost of modern equipment. He does however have a top and bottom blade arrangement that allows logs up to 46 inches wide to be sawn into planks
Visit my home, all the 12x12's are actaully 12x12 as the 6x6 and 4x4's etc.. Oh, I may shave some off when I finish them but they started out 3/16ths bigger anyhow..
We are nowhere near to agreement.
"Someone is having a laugh at your expense."That happens every time he hits the keyboard here
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Did ja ever think that Carlisle does a centered tongue so you have either face to place up? Not having a back cut allows selection of the best face forward...and a center tongue gives you that option.
You have valid points to ponder, you just seem to be off the mark by a tad. I have handplaned T&G flooring from a pitsawn pile in my brief albeit intense time at Colonial Williamsburg(H) the H is optional...and so far from what I have gleaned there and in my own experiance, you are espousing dis-information on not only this thread, but another as well.
Your micro-cosmo of MN is not gonna apply to the rest of the world..your points are valid, for your house, not everyone elses.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I have irriatable Vowel syndrome.
Sphere,
Now we are debating centered tongue in tongue and grooved boards?
OK I'll debate with you.. How difficult would it be to flip a board over and look at both sides before deciding which side to face up? Especially when the conveyor will do the flipping for you?
If you put the tongue lower in the board you will get more sandings before the tongue shows. (at least that's the logic I use when I make my own flooring).
But sure, I'll grant you that where speed may be the deciding factor in profit or loss of high volume flooring manufacturing they may place the tongue in the center to provide options... Hey, but wait!
Carlisle isn't about speed! Their market is willing to pay a premium for wide planks and if an additional minnute is required to evaluate a board I don't see that as a profit buster..
On the other hand I assumed they centered their tongue simply because other than myself I've never anything other than a centered tongue.
Further!
If a comapny relieves the back side of the board doesn't that prevent the board from being flipped over in the first place? (might make for interesting flooring, some smooth boards and some with reliefs) ;-)
While you have me there, I've never hand grooved wood to get a tongue and groove, I've certainly read about it and watched it being done on the Woodrite show on PBS.
Imagine the work involved in some of those old places before machinery took over those duties..
Fast Eddie,
Yes properly set they will it will however call for a really big whack with a fist mall and some sort of set.. Last time I did something like that I used a big long drift pin. The head of the drift pin was about the size of the head of the cut nail.. I had a small hole drilled in a piece of sacraficail plywood so when I missed (and trust me you will miss!) I didn't dent the flooring.. I used my freguklar framing hammer to set the nails however one the head was near the flooring I set it with the fist mall and drift pin..
I'm not kidding about screws, less dramatic and certainly slower but the look more than makes up for it..
If you are like me and work nights and weekends you can quickly lay the boards down and drill a hand full of screw holes to hold everything in place and then come back later and fill in the field...
If you shellac the floor it will save you so much time over most other finishes that in the end things will about wash out..
bend over so I can spank you for thinking you can get away with using SR screws for anything other than sheetrock.They are just too brittle and may break.but then, If you are using screws, you should use a slotted predrilled hole under the bung countersink to allow for movement anyways which might also accidentally relieve some of the stress that would be placed on them.but I wouldn't count on it. Why not just use decent screws and not have to worry about doing it over again?
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Thank heavens you finally showed up, go tell Frenchy to screw his azz with some #6 cabinet hanging/flooring screws.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I have irriatable Vowel syndrome.
I've been busy this weekend, not sure I feel like amusing myself with frenchy tonight or not.notice I said amusing not abusing
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Pif ... third paragraph of the post where I mentioned SR screws ... I said if DW won't take cut nails then I'll probably use 2-1/2" deck screws. I was joking abiout the SR screws. Guess it went over like a fart in a space suit.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
I was reading too fast, 'cause my eyes glazed over reading frenchies bs. The guy knows just enough to be dangerous
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Sounds like the same run, 8 12 ", Two screws in the field about 2 12" from each edge is a good look. Just install like a regular floor and come back over with screwing pattern. It's a combo of esthetics and mechanical, ie. where to put screws.
I've installed 5" T&G SYP floors...still flat after 7 years...thing is, I wouldn't care if they had cupped a little...the price was right, and it's a floor, not a pool table...and if you're really after a country look, what's better than wide board flooring with a little "character?" Oh God said to Abraham, "Kill me a son"
Abe says, "Man, you must be puttin' me on"
God say, "No." Abe say, "What?"
God say, "You can do what you want Abe, but
The next time you see me comin' you better run"
Well Abe says, "Where do you want this killin' done?"
God says, "Out on Highway 61."
FastEddie,
You cannot simply edge nail any board wider than about 4 inches as you correctly surmised.. I've seen six inch boards edge nialed but later heard of problems..
In my case my wide black walnut boards were face screwed with the screws countersunk and plugs made to go over the screw holes.. Labor intense! There is other ways if you are interested..
You can face nail them with decorative cut nails if speed is important and that is a look accepted with wide pine. remember to leave gaps equal to the swelling/ shrinking of the wood in your climate. Check extremely carefully the moisture content of the wood. Air dried wood like that may be anywhere from 7% moisture to 15% and age has little to do with it.. Once dried free of bound water, the exact moisture content doesn't matter as long as it's similar to the moisture content in the rest of the house.. this isn't something that should be guessed at. You cannot feel the differance with your hand at least I've never found anyone that can correctly guess the moisture of any wood..
Frankly I wouldn't use tar paper!
use rosin paper instead. (it's the pink stuff) the odor of tar paper still can be detected in my friends house and it's been years since the floor was laid.. Anytime the sun beats in and heats up that floor the odor is there and he gets to hear again from his wife. That plus for the first couple of years the flooring stuck to the wood as it swelled and shrunk according to the seasons.. you could hear it as you walked. It sounded like loose tile...
Good points Frenchy.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
I looked at the Tremont site. What style and size nail would be appropriate? I was looking at the 'standard' nail which seems to have a small head, and that's what I think DW would object to. I had planned to aim for the floor joists, so I need to go through 3/4" pine + 3/4" plywood ... would I want the 2" or 2-1/2" nails?
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Wide pine boards are not the ideal material for your floor but it is possible. For starters you want to bring the boards in the house and stack it evenly with spacers between each layer of wood. I have found that the thin wood strips from between lumber lifts work well for this. These are usually free from your local lumber yard.
I would let it sit for a minimum of two weeks, but preferably a month to allow the wood to dry and shrink. Put a dehumidifier in the room will help with this process. I have seen pine boards shrink up to a 1/4 inch because it wasn't given the time to dry out in the house. The process can be a bit of an inconvenience especially if you are living in the house, but trust me, it is well worth the wait.
Next, go over the entire subfloor area looking for nail heads, screw heads, etc that might stick in or rub against the new floor. Then start looking/listening for any movement in the subfloor or any squeeks. Screw the areas down. I like to use deck screws for this. You may have to use different methods like shimming or blocking to help in this process. This can sometime be time consuming. Resist the desire to throw the floor down without making these repairs.
Using a wide board like this, I would be inclined to remove the felt paper and lay the pine floor directly on the subfloor. Next, pick up a case of PL Premium Construction Adhesive. Run beads about 12" apart perpendicular to the new floor. This will help to eliminate movement and prevent you boards from cupping. And because you have allowed the wood to dry and shrink back before installation, your boards shouldn't separate after installation. This is not the normal installation process, however, if the above steps have been taken it should work well for you.
Good post. welcome aboard.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I have irriatable Vowel syndrome.
Just got a long personal letter this (coincidently) from the guy I know at Timberknee. If anyone needs any eastern white pine wide plank I'll see if I can get you my deals from him. I've done so much biz with him he does me solid usually.
HAPPY HOLIDAYS:)http://http://www.woodstockanddeadseascrolls.net/files/track09c.mp3<
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
I might be wanting that info. I got a use.
Hey, BTW..I got good news from the DR. The scarring on my lung is not as bad as they thought, but, it is a force to be reckoned with..soon. I have chronic Pleurosy, and if I stay on a medication of anti-biotics, it too will pass.
The freaking Dr. is a cute little Hispanic woman..she says I need a prostate exam too..I looked at her tiny hands and said "Good luck"...oh, mya shiitsa..she gloved up to the elbow, and Kentucky Jelllied her shoulder, kinda like a monkey getting a peanut outta a coke bottle.
Any who..I want / need about 300 sq.ft of wide pine..my stash is culled to remove the ugly, and not near enough to do the Bedroom. They ship?
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I have irriatable Vowel syndrome.
Reminds me of an episode of the "Dirty Jobs" tv show where the guy has to check cows to see if they are pregnant.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
YUP. Hell I went in for a biopsy of my other parts, and she says. "while I have ya here....." good thing she was small fisted.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I have irriatable Vowel syndrome.
Kinda hard gettin' from the first part of your post to the second...took a few gulps and deep winks before I caught my breath. And I thought turnin' my head and coughin' indicated upcoming nausea....
ok, I'm over it now.
GreaT news!!!! I knew fer sure you weren't goin' anywhere...god doesn't want your likes around now...he has enough problems with the way the state of affairs is in... I figga I'm safe too for awhile. Just keep Dubya in office and god'll be distraced from numbnuts like us...lol.The guys name is Tim. I'll send him your Email addy.
HAPPY HOLIDAYS:)http://http://www.woodstockanddeadseascrolls.net/files/track09c.mp3<
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Yeah, buddy. Now I gotsta get back the shid I gave away..LOL
Love ya man.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I have irriatable Vowel syndrome.
Duane you have an email...
I wrote in it what I just copyed and pasted below..just wanted who ever to get this bit of info plus some:
the wood comes near perfect! Next time I do it. I'm gonna TRY and work in clean socks and cover the finished work up with paper so there will be minimal to no sanding other than the mill haze. Its a real bitch to sand with a drum. Chatter marks are totally inevitable...I don't care what anyone says!!
We tried everything from that to those square machines. I ended up on my hands and knees with my ROS & palm sander to get all the marks out. And we're talking about 2500 sq ft! Just figure that time in. Wasn't that bad but had I known I'd have been more prepared and wouldn't have gotten so agrivated.
I had really great pro floor finishing guys in that I've used for yearssssss.
Even they couldn't do it without chatter marks no matter what they tried.
The stuff is so incredably soft.
Like I said...had I been forwarned it wouldn't have been that big of a deal. I'd have been prepared to spend an extra 2-3 days and a big box of sandpaper.
In the end it looks incredable and all I get are compliments.
I donno...I "have" heard a few people say they didn't have that issue at all...but then again I also hear people say they never have to sand their spackle job one bit...yeh sure..lol.
BE well
andy...
HAPPY HOLIDAYS:)http://http://www.woodstockanddeadseascrolls.net/files/track09c.mp3<
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
I got it..thanks.!!!
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I have irriatable Vowel syndrome.