Hello Builders,
I have been a Fine Homebuilding subscriber for almost 20-years now, and for about the last 15, I have been planning my version of our Dream House. At first, I was going to do everything from design to pounding every single nail. If I was a carpenter by trade, that strategy might have been fine, but my trade is science, and you know, we scientists sometimes get a bit carried away. Fortunately for all of us, I am finally able to see some of my own limitations and I have, a bit reluctantly, reduced my scope of work a bit. Now, the design question is still up in the air, but after reading and studying Fine Homebuilding for all of these years, I am chomping at the bit to at least specify every single detail of the job. I mean from the smallest detail like the type and number of nails to use for every piece, to the kind of wood and design for headers, the type of joint I want for the trim on the windows, to… well, everything there is in a custom house. There will probably be 100-pages of specifications for the house.
My long-winded question is this, will the above-average custom home builder think of me as the homeowner from down-below? Is this the right thing to do?
Thanks,
Replies
You probably will not find one. Be prepared to pay dearly if you do. I would charge dearly if I had to manage which hand all of my help wiped with. :-)
I would say, Yes. Most carpenters don't like to work under such strict confines. Not to mention you cannot be all knowing and are sure to overlook a few details which may then conflict with your details.
But a greater problem may loom over you. By putting down your details on paper, you then make things "official". That is official in that you have a legal obligation of responsibility for your ideas. Example: if you spec out a header dimension or the number of nails to use in that header. Then that header fails for some odd reason and your house caves in. Who do you think is most responsible? It could easily have been covered by the builder....however the paper trail will lead to you.
Trust your builder to know how to build.
If you want to have control....be quality control. Inspect his work after each day or week then write your complaints down and talk it over with him.
On remod jobs, I try to take a walkthrough of the job every night with my clients. I want them to know that they can trust me and that I'm worth what they are paying me. If they don't like something, it is changed that night or first in the morn.
gk
give the builder the plans, go on vacation for six months, and look at it for the first time after everything painted. Just remember nobody can build a perfect house. measure to 1/8 cut to 1/4
Offhand I can't think of a single builder I know who would want to work with a homeowner who wanted to spec every detail of the house.
You might find someone willing to do it, though. But you'd have to be completely up front with them about your involvement level and what you expect them to do.
I would think you'd have to be on the jobsite almost constantly to answer questions about what you wanted them to do. That in itself can cause friction.
Honestly, I think you're headed for trouble.
If you think health care is expensive now, wait until you see what it costs when its free. [P.J. O'Rourke]
Do you have the property you intend to build on?
If so, why don't you get your garage built first by yourself.
You, get a tape and a transit, mark out the site and start digging.
By hand is good, or rent a piece of equipment and do it.
Form up your footings and call the truck. Be prepared to learn what to do with concrete when it starts coming out of the chute.
You have (depending on the mood of the driver and his willingness to teach) about 15 to 20 seconds to figure this out. If at the end of 30 seconds you have not managed to grasp the essentials of concrete placement it will be too late. Scream "STOP!!!" and wave your arms. Hope the driver is feeling charitable towards fools that day.
After you footing sets, it's time for whatever goes on top. Slab on grade monolithic pour will be different, but something goes with the footing to park your cars and junk on.
If you are in a cold climate, you will have a short stem wall of some sort from frost level to finish grade.
Concrete blocks are a good learning experience, and by the time you have a few rows on you'll be an experienced mason. You'll need a standing appt at the local chiropractor too if you're over 40.
Once you reach grade level, get your slab figured out and call the Redi-mix plant again to schedule your pour. Specify your mix and wait for the next fun to arrive.
At this point you might be advised to hire someone who has a little experience with placing and finishing concrete as a garage floor with an Au Natural finish is not advisabe.
Once your slab is done, you can erect the walls. Hopefully your 100 pages of details included J-bolts or some other provision for attaching them to the slab.
Frame the walls and stand them & then the roof structure. You will want to stick frame the roof, as trusses are a bitch to get up by yourself. It can be done, but it's not a lot of fun.
And so forth.........
By the time you have the garage built, you will know whether or not you have the skills and the interest to build the house the same way.
You will also realize that much as you might wish for and strive for perfection, the materials you are dealing with do not allow it in the way a scientist might desire.
It's a helll of a lot of fun, and you will learn to appreciate just how much physical labor goes into what isn't visible when it's all done.
Or you will come to hate it and realize this is not where your talents lie, that your time would be better spent elsewhere while someone else builds your dream for you.
Joe H
Great post, Joe!!!!
Thanks
Joe H
Gerrha,
I think you will find it cheaper in the long run to find find a reputable GC with a good track record, establish a good ORAL repore with him//her, and trust their judgement.
If you try to spec everything out, you are going to get soaked.
Jon
I'm a masochist, married to a sadist...I'll build it for you.
Up to a point, what you are proposing is good. It would be nice to have a set of dwgs and specs that was complete, with everything at least thought out. But when you start spec'ing number of nails, etc, you have gone way past anal. Temper your spec book a little..."headers shall meet or exceed all applicable codes with regard to size, species, and fasteners"...etc. It's fine to say you want paint grade trim with mitered corners etc...or that sheetrock walls shall be finished to grade 5 (or whatever it is)...and you can specify that roof sheathing shall be 5/8 plywood, not osb...
Where are you? And why did it take so long for you to join the forum?
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
The carpenter or builder would have a fool for a boss. Not a very desirable condition to work under. In my neck of the woods there have been so many failed owner as contractor projects, that the lenders are requiring the unanoited to hire a competent construction manager at the very least or use an experienced builder if they want financing. Whowa!
We may talk and act like fools here, however, if contracting success was so easy, everyone would be doing it. Success being the opertive word, there's no doubt there's a billion owners out there that think they can do it.
I'll pop one question out right from the start...does the area where you live have a building inspector? Meaning, can builders get away with doing less than the accepted minimum...and are they?
If, however, your location is governed by code, and you hire a competent builder, and the local officials are competent...your house WILL be built at least to the lowest standard, which just happens to be the governing code.
Now realize that while the code is a minimum, often times the required minimum is pretty darn good. Other times the minimum can, and should be, improved upon.
If you choose a quality builder, you and he should be pretty much on the same page as to what constitutes quality construction. Still, you will have differences...sometimes his difference will be the best choice, sometimes yours will be...but honest debate, done while going over the plans, should put all your oncerns to rest.
A couple of examples...you mentioned fastener schedules. Normally this does not have to be spec'd out, as it's a black and white code issue...but if you want the subfloor glued and screwed vs simply nailed, then by all means specify that. Same with drywall screws vs nails.
Floor flex? I'd certainly want something more than code minimum, and I'd definitely want installation detailed spec'd out if using TJIs or another form of engineered joist.
Same with 10" thick foundation walls vs 8", CDX vs OSB, cellulose insulation vs FG, and knowing you want Marvin windows instead of Vinyl-Fail windows...etc, etc. Pick what you want, have a reason why, and discuss it with the builder.
I think to a certain extent it's fine to choose what building materials you want in your house. However, be careful about telling the builder how to build your house.
Think about it...you know what kind of house you want...and he knows how to build it.
That said...by having so many of the finish details (cabinets, hardwarem knobs, etc) known at the start, the bidding process should go relatively smoothly.
Do consider having secondary and tertiary choices as back-ups, though...for reasons of both budget (first choice too $$) and supply (first choice no longer available).
I'm with Ed, I like specific specs. I'd look over your spec sheet, then we'd talk. I'd tell you that you don't need a steel I-beam for a ridge beam in an attic space, but if that's what you want, s'awright by me. But if it's something like no dirt on the rafters (I've heard that one) we might have a problem. I think it's best having everything up front, especially expectations.
I'll bet you probably have some good ideas that I wouldn't mind trying out, but just because you read about them somewhere (even if it was FHB<G>), doesn't necessarily mean they're right, or even practical. Having all your fit and finish items lined up is great. Much easier to build to. You're way ahead of the game there.
I say temper your 100 page list a bit, and show it to the GCs you like. They'll tell you whether they can deal with you or not. You may have to look around to find a good fit, but it's your money and you should have a good time spending it. And when you're sitting in your new house, do you want to be constantly reminded of unpleasantries or stuff you wish were different? Why would you hire a builder who resented you?
Like Ed said, where are you?
Good Luck Don't worry, we can fix that later!
here are my first thoughts;
It sounds like ytou are planning overkill and too much work for yourself and that the specs might driver the cost up.
It might work out fine with thew right builder IF ( and this is a mighty big if) you know what you arte doing. I have had customers try to spec things based on their limited knowledge that would have resulted in a higher cost and a lower quality. Some things depend on the circumstances and availability.
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
Gerrha,
I'm a lurker like yourself, and I'm "building" my own house; part sub-contracting, part DIY but nowhere as ambitious as you're describing. Those who have responded to you are being kind and going very easy on you. You are paying a professional not just for his/her ability to get building permits but for his/her expertise built upon experience, knowledge and discretion. Hiring someone to undertake a house building then tying their hands and supervising EVERY detail is silly and a sign of OCD. Anyone who would agree to your conditions is either no good or so desperate for a job that I wouldn't let them build a dog house.
To paraphrase Groucho, "I wouldn't let anyone build for me who would work for me."
You are building a house not a piano. Get over yourself and hire a reputable guy. Then get off his back unless you see something really out of place. if you think you are going to put a seasoned tradesman through trade school you are out of your mind.
I am married to a scientist so I can say that with experience. I know how they are.
OK, Let's put the scientific method to work here.
The cost has now quadrupled - because we need to build a house, a test house, and a spec house, an then have a committee to record the progress and anal-ize the findings.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I agree with the previous responses that you're crazy and no one good will work under those conditions.
That last sentence of mine came out rough. But, not only will you drive the contractor nuts but you'll drive yourself nuts, too. And it won't produce better results.
Building a home with a contractor is a relationship, and you have to get along for a year. I've been through this, being an anally retentive mechanical engineer myself. The best thing you can do is to hire a good contractor, then not worry about it and not nit pick. You can't give attention to all those details anyway. You'll lose focus, and you won't enjoy the creative part of the process.
So, you can (and should) tell the builder what you want, for example, poured foundation (vs. block), or bituminous membrane waterproofing (vs. tar), and so forth. But you don't know more about building than the builder and he will resent you telling him how many nails to use.
I'm on board with Ed and Billy too ...
count me in!
But ... we're gonna go thru your little book of details ... and I'll let ya know what's right and what's wrong before we start ...
I like details. As long as they make sense.
And just because someone got it past a FHB editor .... or even a local building inspector ... doesn't mean it's the right way to go.
15 to 20 years of reading and subscribing ... without actually building out in the field ... means lots that info is outdated.
Just keep than in mind.
and exactly what is to be gained by spec'ing the nailing pattern of a header for crying out loud.
You better have the very last detail of the kitchen layout in concrete AND the knobs on order before we start talking about how many nails I'm using in the headers ...
Having the details laid out first does make for a smooth running job ...
as long as you have that back up plan written out too ...
because nothing goes 100% according to plan.
That .. and remember ... to have fun.
Jeff
Buck Construction, llc Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
Is this the first house you are having built? If so, as it seems for your question, one suggestion, from one HO just finishing one house to another:
Consider getting a lot and having the best GC you can find build a spec house for you and watch all that goes on, every nail and since concrete work was mentioned, the concrete pouring and the hours smoothing it on their knees, going over and over again, watching it for consistency and finish and timing the next concrete deliveries so these arrive when the first pour is getting done.
Make many notes, as you will find that much of what you know from reading and watching and doing a little here and there, no matter how many years you have been at it, will not hold a candle to the real thing when your money, time and interest is involved.
Then, once you have really seen every little detail of the work and how those that have done it for many years daily go about it, making it look simple, then you will still not really know much but you will be parsecs away from what you seem know now.
Why do I say that? Because just the idea you present of having every last detail specified shows that you don't know that much about the realities of building.
Some tradesmen like certain products and can do better work with them than with some other product you may specify. Are you enamored of a certain kind of nail when they can do better for you with another? Or a technique in framing that has been working better for them than others you may think you like better?
I think that it would be tiresome, frustrating and costly to have to keep waiting around and learning new stuff that will be many times no better than the way they are used to working, just different.
One more comment. Even if you have a CAD system to work with, with the most detailed plans, do run them thru a designer as they will catch stuff you may have missed and go over their plans also with a fine tooth comb as they too miss some.
You must realize that you can't know as much as the folks that have been doing it all their lives. There is so much more to every little job than anyone not in the trades can see, even if you may not think they know much. That is why the idea of such a tight specification from someone not in the trades, no matter how well read, seems irrelevant to the work at hand.
I understand your wish to have everything a certain way you think is best. I did also wanted certain things my way but sometimes reality decides for you. You yourself will find that, as the building goes along, some that you had set in stone is not the best in practice and will change it.
After your first house, then you will have much more to go by on your dream house. Don't expect your first one to be without faults, no matter how tight the specifications you can think of now.
I think that even the most experienced builders learn from each house and are better for it in their next one. Find a good one and let him do his job as far as the building technique and you have fun with the other details.
That is one of the reasons I built my own home.. It's far from rocket science and if I can do it I'm certain you can as well.
Instead of hiring a general and then telling him what to do try to hire your subs and be there with them.
I went evan further I hired labor to do what I could not do myself. I hired those with no prior experiance and taught them my way of working.. you'll need to insure them (not that hard or expensive) you'll need to buy their tools and everything... (then sell them on E bay when finished) It's really hard work and will cost you more in time and money and effort than you could imagine..
Yet it will be dramactically cheaper than having a general to support..
Besides almost no general is willing to give up that level of power..
---"That is one of the reasons I built my own home.. It's far from rocket science and if I can do it I'm certain you can as well."---
Yes, building houses is not rocket science, but the devil is in the miriad of details.
In the words of a building inspector: "If someone is fairly new at this, they may be happy with the results as their own GC but they don't even know what may not be right or could have been better, because they don't know enough to judge."
Words to remember when someone may want to resent the cost of a GC. The experience he brings to the job has more value than some seem to give them.
I don't resent the value of a general, but if you know up front that you don't match why would you ever get involved? Well like it or not often it's for money.. The bills do need to be paid and......
So the general takes the job hoping to change the customer and the customer gives the job to the general hoping that the things said (and not said) mean that things will be as the owner visions..
If that is not a recipe for the distaster that accompany so many tails of contractor/homeowner horror I don't know what is..
See, out of 27 replies, you've gotten 3 positives, and one from a guy who wouldn't let us build his dog house<G> He must know me!?
When you do find a contractor, he's going to tell you not to micro manage his subs. Listen to him, they're his subs, not yours, and they will resent you...now making them eat some of your sammiches and cold drinks for lunch will not be considered micro managing ;-)
Don't worry, we can fix that later!
'Still gonna depend on whether he knows what he's doing as a sandwhich builder!
;)
You could have counted me as maybe a qualified half in your count. I wanted to slap that guy who is so picky about who builds his doghouse!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
My business is Finish Carpentry, I work in the upstate NY area and recently finished a house for a customer just like you. He micro managed every detail of the project right down to nailing specs ect. In the end he ended up with an inferior house for which he paid way to much for, that he will have a hard time selling ( it was a spec house, a midwestern style built in the adirondacks, how dumb is that? ). Every sub who worked on that site came away resenting "mr. Micro" and we all miss no opportunity to recount his many blunders and gaffs when ever we find ourselves standing around at coffee time talking about the most ridiculous customers we've ever had to deal with. HIs reputation is shot and I doubt that he will ever get a fair deal from anyone in this area again.
Find yourself a competent Builder and put in him the trust that you yourself would expect as a professional in your own field.
jay... tell us more... this sounds interesting....
i'm fairly annal myself..
guerra.. can you really write a spec and do the shop drawings so someone could follow them and arrive at the same vision you have in your head ?
i do design / build.. i design the project , supervise the project, do the production of the project.. everything is hands on... and it still never turns out the exact way i had in mind...
interesting to see if you could actually accomplish waht you think you can...
the other thing is that tight specs will preclude entertaining different variables that may actually improve the product... ( if you have a GC and carpenters good enough to follow your instructions , there is no doubt in my mind thta they will have lots of good ideas and methods that you haven't even though of yet)...
it would seem to be an open invitation to one Change Order aftr another...Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Yeah, Jay, tell us more. Especially the part about the nailing schedule for the finish work.
Ok Mr Gerrha, time to sign back in let us know our thoughts. You have received quite a few good comments, and surprisingly none of them have been rude or insulting. Not bad for a first time poster.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
Gerrha,
Have you ever seen the written specifications that always accompany a large commercial building project (that 3" thick document that owners/archtects wave in the air when they see something they don't like!)? When you hire an architect that provides written specs (often from MasterSpec) your builder is bidding the job off the drawings and the requirements from the specs. This written document is where all the details are provided. They include details such as:
Paint sample submittals (how many, what size, etc)
Grades of lumber
Acceptable fasteners
Work schedule
Adhesives (types, cure times, temps for use)
Tolerances (out of plumb, dimensions, etc)
..and on ad nausem
My point is that you don't need to reinvent the wheel. Many, many have travelled for millenium before you that work to ensure that a building is fabricated to a particular level.
One area to be careful of is that you do not attempt to dictate the methods and procedures by which the GC will operate. It's not your place to say, for example if the foundation should be formed up using X or Y...or if they should use hammers or nail guns. That's up to the GC. If something on the building fails because of a bad spec then it the architect's fault. If it fails because a GC doesn't follow the spec then it's the GC's fault. If it fails because you've directed the builder to follow your direction then it's your fault. Not to sound preachy at all, but there's more to methods, materials and techniques than you'll find between the covers of FHB.
Hire an architect that will provide specification services (often subcontracted out in smaller firms) and let the professionals work for you.
Seth
mistake. There is no win
and there is no fail . . . there is only
make."
John Cage
Hello Scientists;
I've been a subscriber to Scientific American for 30 years now. I have a dream science project I want to pursue. At first I was going to do it myself. Every little detail from hypothesis through experimentation to the acceptance speech I am going to give when they hand me the Nobel. If I was a scientist by trade, that would be fine, but I am aware that, as a carpenter, I do have some limitations in my scientific abilities. I am reluctant to come to you experienced scientists to do the job because I know that I could do it so much better myself. Unfortunately I will have to hire a couple of the very best of you to do the grunt work for me. Of course I will show you how to do everything you need to know right down to the most minute detail. This will be a tough job but I am sure I can whip you incompetent geeks into shape and show you my vast knowledge of how scientific work should be done. Don't forget, I have practically memorized every issue of Scientific American and what I don't have in actual hands on experience is more than made up for by my superior comprehension of the articles in that magazine.
I apologize if I seem over anxious to pursue my dream of curing the lack of common sense in some members of our society. This is something we all have learned to live with but at what cost to mankind. These people need a pill, won't you join me in finding a cure?
OK ALL,
Hopefully Gerrha got the message. And since he (she?) hasn't posted anything back...and we all seem to agree that hirering a good GC is the way to go...time to let this one die...unless???
Jon
http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&msg=43606.1
All the messages have been revieved by the progenitor of the thread, with good humour, it appears, but he had a difficult time deciding how to reply within the thread so he tried a scientific experiment involving a new thread.
BTW, he sounds like my kind of customer.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
"BTW, he sounds like my kind of customer."
Piffin,
One with deep pockets? Cause he's going to need 'um with that approach.
Honestly, So much can be more efficiently accomplished with face to face talks, where people LISTEN, decide, and go from there.
Jon
You can't equate housebuilding with rocket science. I'm sorry, but it is just not that complicated.
While lots of first-timers botch GC-ing a house job, many more are quite successful at it.
The experienced builders don't always get it right, either. I drive by one every day now that is in the final week of framing. Nice lot, all level, everything looks sort of OK, but it was sited a good foot too low. Not an easy fix, that one.
I would be happy to take your 100 pages of specs and build a house to those specs. I would not tolerate your hanging around the jobsite during working hours personally supervising all my subs and employees. I know from the experience of dealing with 3 inch thick spec books that there is a hell of a lot of important information that is simply not there. It is pretty easy to flesh out those specs with a collaborative relationship between the designer, owner and builder. For a successful project that is what you need to be working toward.
If you want to dictate every detail you are much better off just hiring employees for this. I do tell a new employee exactly how I want my headers constructed and how I want the trim nailed. I don't tell the guy who has been working for me for ten years.
" I do tell a new employee exactly how I want my headers constructed and how I want the trim nailed. I don't tell the guy who has been working for me for ten years."
SchellingM,
And that's why they get paid more. Just like a GOOD builder.
Jon
whatever happened to the gal who was looking for someone to completely renovate her NYC apartment and had the utterly ridiculous schedule and costs all worked out? somebody posted a link to her RFP a few months ago. anybody else remember her?
m
I remember. Maybe that's how they do things down there. We had an archy come here and annpounce to all potential bidders that the job would be finished in eight months and cost no more than $x and blah, blah, blah...
Nobody even bid on it and it took two years for them to find a builder and the job is now eight months into construction and the roof is almost finished and most doors and windows are in. Looks like another eight months to finish and I would guess the cost to be at least double what the original archy estimate was.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Any contractor I know would look at this job as if he were looking down the barrel of a loaded gun with a lunatics finger on the trigger. You are here asking the right question so obviously you are no lunatic. The contractors you attempt to hire will see it differently as you can tell by the prior posts.
So, lets try to seep a bit of logic into the scenario.. Are you going to live forever ? No... When you take the big dirt nap and the house is sold who is gonna pull the drywall off to check that the correct number and size of nails were used. Nobody....
So, hire an Architect to assist in the design. Hire a reputable contractor to build the house... and leave the details like counting nails to the building inspectors. Thats what they do for a living. If you see something that you don't like, get a second opinion before you jump down your contractors throat. You may know the specs but you don't have his experience and like it or not, you never will. Jump him one to many times, (once may be enough), and he'll either walk off the job or throw a change order at you that will cost you big time.
IMHO, the way you are thinking of going about it will turn your dream home into your worst nighmare. By the time its finally finished you'll hate it so much you'll want to sell it.
Sincerely;
The Tool Guy
Edited 5/23/2004 4:20 pm ET by Tool Guy
he sounds merely unreasonable- that other gal was beyond delusional.
on a related note: a <former> friend is absolutely convinced that the absolutely failsafe way to keep a contractor (any contractor for anything) in check is to demand they provide a "firm bid". not a 'not to exceed' bid, mind you, but before any work starts beyond the planning stage, he requires they supply an exact finished price- no overruns, no time & material, no nothing allowed, no exceptions (except of course, any change orders). he brags on and on about how many times he has avoided getting screwed by insisting everybody account for every conceivable contingency expense before the job even starts- no matter how complex (this once included the building of an entire 3000 sq ft house).
what really happens is the contractors make double- or triple- sure they're not left holding the bag on an underbid, so all this doofus (who, btw, knows absolutely jacksh!t about the construction trades) ends up doing is making sure he gets pre-hosed on every deal he's ever made in his life- with the added bonus of insulting everyone he tries to work with by essentially telling them he thinks they're all crooks before they even start.
he always is so proud of the work he gets and the great price, but it is invariably complete crap by workmen who can't get decent clients. a prime example: he mentioned 3 or 4 times how cheaply he was able to get his dirt basement floor poured in concrete before i actually saw it. IT WAS ROUGH MUCKED WITH A SHOVEL- PERIOD. no screeding, no floating, no finishing, no kidding. 600 sq ft of coarse aggregate floor that you can hardly walk across without tripping.
just one the many pearls of wisdom this know-it-all old fart is famous for...
m