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We’ve all done stupid things. I have a bathroom window that took far too much time to install, because I saved money by buying a cheap aluminum frame window and then tried to blend it into our 1890 house by building a false opening for it to recess it into the house. The outside, ironically, has worked for years — but because the window is aluminum, with no thermal break, the inside is a water-breeder in the winter, so the inside sill, jamb, casing, etc., is slowly rotting away.
Friend of mine used to say, “Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgment.” I’ve been busy accumulating the source of good judgment for years, though not much has shown up yet.
Anyhow, on to the casing problem. Although it’s harder to work with, I’d consider galvanized or copper flashing, soldered, if you’re willing to invest the money and learning time. You want to catch any water that gets under your lower shingle courses and guide it to the outside of the house, so run the flashing upward to the top of the filler piece, then build little covers over the casing and solder them together. The casing design is attractive, but it’s not very good from the weather-resisting perspective. Not only are you building various routes for water to get behind your wall, but you’re placing end-grain facing up, which is also a bad idea (remember the old comparison to wood being like a bunch of drinking straws bundled together? You’re putting all those straws up to catch the water). So, to do it right, you have to cover the upthrusting side casings all the way down to an inch or so below their intersection with the top casing. Even with paint, it’s going to look kinda funky.
Suggestion based on our old house’s casing design: what if you slightly redesigned the casing to eliminate the upthrust of the side casings, terminating them at the top casing, OR used a larger top casing (4×6 if you’re up to the funds, or a 2×6 on top of the 4×4) with some sort of transition detail like a cove routed into the bottom edge? This would be a lot easier to flash, as the horizontal part wouldn’t have to step around those little upthrust side casings.
Replies
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Gaby,
I'm right there with Bill on most of his suggestions. If
you change your design (as Bill suggested) to let the end
grain die into the bottom of the "header" 4x4 casing, which
would be extended the diameter of the 4x4 on each side to
keep the same dimensions, and added some copper flashing (or
pick your metal) on top of the header casing, it would solve
a great deal of future worry, and look good too. Another
help would be to bevel the header piece like a typical
window so the water flows naturally down and away, instead
of giving it a place to rest (and I know you're in Canada,
they still got snow and ice up dere?)
If you keep the layout the same, you could bevel the tops of
the side casings with a downward slant, and/or put copper
caps on these pieces to keep the end grain covered.
Love them custom windows!
Good luck to you Gaby.
MD
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Gaby: you're just trying for the look and feel of those casing on the other elevations of the house.
How about recutting them slightly so all the horizontal upper edges have a 10 deg. bevel, then bend some custom window cap from alum. coil stock or copper, and flash all of your bevels, Add the vertical riser pieces AFTER you've flashed the haorizontal head casing, and flash those pieces also.
I try to make all my details have a drip edge, so I like to leave my siding up 3/4" by siding to a temporary spacer, and then removing the spacer so you have a neat line.
I would think of doing this over the windows also, but here it is more difficult.
*Gaby Just curious. Is it wise to caulk the bottom edge of your shingles? Would this not catch water and create rot?
*Gaby in reference to the kerf cut, that is the cut left by Your saw blade and in this instance it provides a break to let water drop off the underside of Your trim.I'd make it 1/8" to 1/4"deep and an inch or two back from the front of Your trim. If I missread Your thread then ignore that info.Skip
*Thanks for all your input guys. I'm going to try all your ideas on some sample pieces to see how things will fit together. I'll let you know how it turns out.Gaby
*Your right Nelson. That arrow should not have been there.ThanksGaby
*A couple things about your problem:1. definitely don't caulk bottoms of shingles. water needs to get out from behind. Make sure there's room for water to get out and keep the bottom of shingles dry by using a temporary spacer, like Mike said, although 1/2" should be enough.2. You didn't mention the finish to be used on the 4x4's, but guessing that you want to leave it natural, I would use lead or lead coated copper, both of which are a good match for cedar once it weathers a while. You could form the flashing with a small bevel instead of beveling the tops of the 4x4's, as many have suggested.3. where to flash? My first inclination is to individually flash each horizontal plane separately. I would make the horixontal piece flashings wide enough to extend above the verticals, and overlap the flashing of the verticals to those of the horizontals. Unfortunately, this method is not perfect in that the window itself is not protected. Water could still get between the 4x4 and the window, run back and into the framing. Caulk will not help this, although water getting in is unlikely but possible (so definitely will occur). I had a somewhat wacky idea of flashing the window itself starting at the window, going under, behind, then on top of the 4x4, then upon top of the flashing board all the way up above the exposure of the course above the vertical 4x4. Make this flashing as wide as the widest 4x4 location. I think this would work, maybe someone else will have other ideas. Good luck.
*A few things I'm not clear on. My situation reminds me of how a window sits inside a brick sided house(I'm not considering the outside of the casing..just how the window sits inside it). I went to see how they installed windows on houses with brick siding. All I could see was caulking all around between the window frame and the brick. Am I to assume that if there was no caulking there that water would get in between the brick and the window? Or, is there some special way they flash it so it works with out caulking? Second, I don't understand how you can use flashing vertically. Don't you need caulk anyway to seal the joint between the vertical part of the window frame with whatever it's coming into contact with? If so, does it make any difference as to what material that vertical piece is, wether it be aluminium or wood. I'm asking these questions because it's my first time doing this and there's much I don't know.ThanksGaby
*Gaby...imagine you're a drop of water, now imagine your being blown by a 90 mph wind. now install a flashing that will stop that drop of water and let gravity take its course.I think that's how they've been explaining flashing for about a 150 years. It's definitely one of the black arts of building science(now there's an oxymoron)
*Ok..so..uhm...How do I flash a vertical joint? (I'm not being sarcastic...I've never done it before so I'd really like to know how it's usually done.) ThanksGaby
*you flash a vertical joint by putting a spline behind the joint that laps across the joint. Like e.g. : window casing, on a modern windwo with nailing fins, you install your bldg. felt, or your tyvek, then you run a horizontal piece accross the bottom of the opening, then two splines say 12" wide up the sides, then the header piece across the top.Install the window.Now I either rabbet the casing trim so it will jump over the nailing fin, or I make a shim out of ice&water membrane to level the casing. Befor I apply the casing , I repeat the ice and water in the same pattern as the splines.I nail on my casing trim, and then apply the siding .At the bottom of the window, m in each corner, you need a flashing to turn the water back out onto the top of the siding. It goes under the corner and over the top of the siding piece, and it gets covered by the next siding piece,.Under the sill, you can just picture frame the casing and turn the window manufacturer's flashing up so the water will flow down the sill, hit the flashing and go over your siding under the window.If you want to get fancy with a modern window, rip a lot of sill stock , put a rabbet in it for the siding to go under and a 1/8 drip rabbet under the front edge. This is our usual detail. In this case, the membrane can run behind the mfr's folding flashing and up onto the top edge of one of the horizontal sidings. The last piece of horizontal siding goes up into the rabbet under the false sill. The false sill is primed and back primed, and the jkoint is caulked and painted. Any joint on a house that is being painted or solid stain, should be open enough to be caulked. The caulk is to give you a paintable surface. It is NOT to make a waterproof joint, your flashing and construction details provide the waterproofing. The Architect /designer should design in these maintenance details into their construction drawings. Alot of good looking designs look like shit when they start rotting away after three years.The water running down the vertical joint between the siding and the casing will run right along the membrane, hit the flashing at the bottom corner and turn out.This area is subject to a lot of abuse, so I like to use PAINTED siding, and we back prime and edge prime before installation of siding and casing.. If you paint, then this vertical joint should be left open more than a 1/16 and less than an 1/8 so you can caulk it with a 30 year painter's caulk and then paint it. Paint and SOIID STAIN are the BEST protection for exterior trim and siding. Nothing else will last, Nothing. I've worked on houses built in 1680 and the painted portions that didn't have leak damage are still going strong.All details where siding meets horizontal details should have some way of dripping and drying between rain storms, or the siding / trim will WICK water up and the paint will fail and look like shit after about a year.Sidewall shingles and clapb'ds cut tight to a roof are a bad (good) example of what not to do.b Flashing is job number 1. Now lets talk about storm doors and overhangs and how to design gutters out of your life.!
*Thanks Mike.I think I understand. The 3 windows that I had installed didn't have the nailing flange like you described. They were designed to be screwed to the rough opening frame from the inside through holes that are hidden by trim. After installation you are left with a gap between the window frame and rough opening(this is filled with insulation). This is why I couldn't figure out how to flash that gap without caulking it somehow. Take a look at the sketch to see what I mean.The window manufacturer is Wilton. The window is all aluminium(extruded) with styrofoam insulation around the frame and internal extrusions. Any comments?Gaby
*Yes, but some of them I'll keep to myself.......If I had that window, I would case it befor i installed it. and I would caulk the casing to the frame (jambs & header) with a marine caulk like SikaFlex, or one of the 50 year caulks on the market. Then I'd prime and backprime the casings and the sill like in my prev. post and install it as a unit. This would also give you an opportunity to square the unit up to make installation easier, and keep the face in the same plane as the sheathing.b IMHO....right.
*Mike, I get the feeling you don't like these windows. This company doesn't make windows with nailing fins. I have 3 of them installed and only one is completed with casing and shingles. I plan to buy more windows (10 more) this spring to finish the rest of the house. Please don't hold back. I'd like to hear what you have to sayIYHO...of course.Gaby
*Gaby: I can't see the windows. You can, they look like sliders from the drawing. GENERALLY speaking, sliders are way down the food chain in terms of energy conservation, by their nature, they slide on a track, so they have a lot more air infiltration blowing in under them. Ranking operating window types by heat loss it goes like this:casementawningdouble hungsliderAlso by their construction, the jambs are insulated on the back, but they have a large conductance heat loss ( with no thermal break) across the extrusion and are a conduit for heat loss around the perimeter. Most modern windows use composite construction to build in thermal breaks and eliminate as many of these losses as possible.I like to sell universally available windows, that have testing data from the National Fenestration Council or the Canadien ( an or en ?) equivelent.I like a window company that is older than me (PFO), that will still be in business 30 years from now, that will stand behind their warranty, that can sell me a replacement sash in 10 years.In terms of maintenance I like a Clad exterior, and a factory finished wood interior. For ventilation, a casement has the largest opening / frame size.Double hungs work well with most architectural styles.That said, I would still take your windows, experiment with the one you have installed, and come up with a final plan for the sill / casing detail, including the flashings.Then I would cut out all my parts and prime everything before assembly, all the pieces that you will never have access to again.I might come up with a rabbeted casing that the front of the aluminum jamb would caulk into. I would put a 10 deg. bevel on the sill and the bottoms of the casings, and caulk the casings to the sill. I would preassemble all the units, square them and put some temp. diagonal braces on to keep them square until after they were installed.I would install them by lining up all the headers at the same ht., shimming the sides and bottoms, screwing or nailing thru the casings with stainless fasteners and lastly, screwing thru the jambs.After I got done with this, I would say, next time I'm going to use "brand X" with a clad exterior, and a nailing fin , and run my casing and trim around the outside.b IMHO
*Not worry Mike. The sketch wasn't very representative of the windows. They are casement, low E argon, double pane with "warm edge spacer"(composite spacer between panes). All extrusion are isolated to prevent heat transfer. I am however looking at other sources for my future windows. I wasn't very happy with this company's service. I going to take all your advice into consideration. Thanks very much for all your help. I've learned a lot.BTW, I didn't see you at Adirondack Jack's keg party last Tuesday night. Oh well...maybe next time...Later!Gaby
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Hi Guys,
I may have made a big mistake by trying to be creative to make my home look nice.
I installed some new wimdows recently. I decided that since I would be replacing the siding and adding exterior insulation that I would make custom casings aswell.I made the casings, installed them, and realized after that I can't flash it properly because of the way they were designed.I completed one side of the house with a new door and window, custom casing, and cedar shingles.I flashed the new door and window in a very unconventional way.This side of the house has an overhang and never gets rained on so I'm not wooried.However, I plan to install the rest of the windows in the spring. I need some ideas on a better way of doing it. I would really like to keep the casing design (since I have 2 installed already) even though it's causing the problem.
The rigid insulation protrudes past the windows so I made casings from 4x4 cedar that wrap around the window frame and provide something for the insulation to but up against.The casing is attached directly to the sheathing with a 1x4 spacer behind it.I then added 1x6 cedar boards (flashing board) around the casing.They sit on top of the insulation and butt up against the casing.I then caulked the joint between the boards and the casing all the way around.The boards above the casing also served as a starter coarse for the shingles.Once the shingles were installed I caulked the joint between them and the casing and the joint between the window frame and casing.Please take a look at the illustration.I know that not using copper or alum. flashing is crazy but I can't see how to use it in this case without changing the appearance of the
casing.Don't be afraid to tell me I'm a fool.Advice, insight, solutions, ridicule, or anything at all appreciated.
Gaby
*Gaby,That's a heck of a casing! I don't think that flashing it will be too bad if you just take the time to do it right.My first piece of advice is "just do it". Once you get started, you'll probably be able to just figure it out but here's my suggestions. I'd post a sketch except that my CAD program can't export any format that can be seen here.For the center section of the top casing: your aluminum should start behind your insulation board about four inches (more or less) above the casing. Should be bent to come out along the top and then bent down to wrap over the front edge of the casing. I know you don't want to mess with the look so make the front of the flashing no more than 1/2" high and use brown aluminum or have paint matched to your casing and paint the trim.For the outer sections of the top casing: do the same thing.For the part of the side casing that extends above the top casing: flash the sides of it with a piece of aluminum bent as before except placed sideways. Now this leaves an opening in the inside corners where water can get in. There are flexible inside corner's that are sold already fabricated for such a situation. Just make sure that the top flashings always go over the ones below.Now, make a 1/4" deep kerf cut alont the bottom of your top casing to keep water from running along the bottom edge into your window.For the bottom casing, just bevel the top edge so that water flows away from the window and do the kerf cut again.I'm hoping to hear what others would do here. This is definately an area with no "right" answer.
*Ryan,I was thinking of what you suggested.I'm not too clear on the kerf cuts, however(probably because I don't know what it means)A sketch would be great!Try this.Export your cad file to a bitmap format.If it can't, export it to any file type that it will allow. Next, use a photo editor program to call up that file.(Microsoft Photodraw, Adobe PhotoShop, etc.).Once you have that file in the photo editor you simply re-save it into .gif or .tif format. Most eidtors can save in multiple formats. Microsoft PhotoDraw will ask you to save for use on the web, then follow the instructions.Trick: change your background to white and geometry and text to black before you export your cad file.Thanks for the info.Let me know how it goes with the sketch.Gaby
*We've all done stupid things. I have a bathroom window that took far too much time to install, because I saved money by buying a cheap aluminum frame window and then tried to blend it into our 1890 house by building a false opening for it to recess it into the house. The outside, ironically, has worked for years -- but because the window is aluminum, with no thermal break, the inside is a water-breeder in the winter, so the inside sill, jamb, casing, etc., is slowly rotting away.Friend of mine used to say, "Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgment." I've been busy accumulating the source of good judgment for years, though not much has shown up yet.Anyhow, on to the casing problem. Although it's harder to work with, I'd consider galvanized or copper flashing, soldered, if you're willing to invest the money and learning time. You want to catch any water that gets under your lower shingle courses and guide it to the outside of the house, so run the flashing upward to the top of the filler piece, then build little covers over the casing and solder them together. The casing design is attractive, but it's not very good from the weather-resisting perspective. Not only are you building various routes for water to get behind your wall, but you're placing end-grain facing up, which is also a bad idea (remember the old comparison to wood being like a bunch of drinking straws bundled together? You're putting all those straws up to catch the water). So, to do it right, you have to cover the upthrusting side casings all the way down to an inch or so below their intersection with the top casing. Even with paint, it's going to look kinda funky.Suggestion based on our old house's casing design: what if you slightly redesigned the casing to eliminate the upthrust of the side casings, terminating them at the top casing, OR used a larger top casing (4x6 if you're up to the funds, or a 2x6 on top of the 4x4) with some sort of transition detail like a cove routed into the bottom edge? This would be a lot easier to flash, as the horizontal part wouldn't have to step around those little upthrust side casings.
*Gaby,I dont think you have a bad problem. Here are a couple of ideas. Install the header piece first flash it then install the side piece putting a small piece above the header. You coule double flash it by putting a piece of flashing on the window itself. You could trim the window with a small 1x2 first flash it and treat those big pieces as part of the siding. These are just a couple of ideas that poped into my head mabey they will help you brainstorm something. Also I would bevel the tops of the horizontal pieces so they wont puddle water. and cut a kerf in the bottom for a drip.If any of this sounds crazy I have a bad head cold and am going on about an hour of sleep.Rick Tuk