I need to select windows for a new construction project. Where can I find information comparing various manufacturer’s products? What should I look for beyond energy issues? Thanks
Discussion Forum
Discussion Forum
Up Next
Video Shorts
Featured Story
Join some of the most experienced and recognized building professionals for two days of presentations, panel discussions, networking, and more.
Featured Video
Highlights
"I have learned so much thanks to the searchable articles on the FHB website. I can confidently say that I expect to be a life-long subscriber." - M.K.
Fine Homebuilding Magazine
Fine Home Building
Follow
-
Fine Homebuilding
Dig into cutting-edge approaches and decades of proven solutions with total access to our experts and tradespeople.
Start Free Trial Now -
GBA Prime
Get instant access to the latest developments in green building, research, and reports from the field.
Start Free Trial Now
- Home Group
- Antique Trader
- Arts & Crafts Homes
- Bank Note Reporter
- Cabin Life
- Cuisine at Home
- Fine Gardening
- Fine Woodworking
- Green Building Advisor
- Garden Gate
- Horticulture
- Keep Craft Alive
- Log Home Living
- Military Trader/Vehicles
- Numismatic News
- Numismaster
- Old Cars Weekly
- Old House Journal
- Period Homes
- Popular Woodworking
- Script
- ShopNotes
- Sports Collectors Digest
- Threads
- Timber Home Living
- Traditional Building
- Woodsmith
- World Coin News
- Writer's Digest
Replies
Windows are a big expense. Look at long term warrenties. Don't bother with anyone that pro-rates or doesn't support their products parts. I have windows that claimed a 20 year warrenty... 5 years later they no longer made replacement parts, glazing bead, tilt shoes and jamb liners... When the glass started to fog after 8 years their replacement glass was more expensive then a local glass shop...
But they did and still do advertise a 20 year warrenty... the devil is in the details and the fine print.
Choose wisely.
Who's window are you referring to? It would be a benefit to all to know the name!!!! I am in the window business and I agree with most of what you said.
The builder is proposing Jeld Wen vinyl double hung windows. It is hard to tell how they measure up to other manufacturers.
Who is paying the bills? Who is going to live in the house? I would not put a vinyl window in a playhouse...... Thats just me, I have had too many problems over the years... Good luck
Winstall,
20 years ago doing a ton of production framing I learned to hate vinyl windows. Who could like Silverline windows?
After that I spent more than a few years doing very high end work. I remember all kinds of builders being sure to list the fact that they used Kolbe and Kolbe windows, and thinking what a joke that was since they were the wood equivelant of Silverline windows.
Last year when I wanted to replace the windows in my old house, Wood or clad windows were overkill for a number of reasons.
I used some Pella new construction double hung vinyl. I was fairly well impressed with them and to be honest would rate them as FAR better than some of the much higher end windows I've put some over $1M houses.
I'm not saying I would put them in a 5000 sqft center hall that was going for 1.5M. But they have in fact evolved significantly. I would easily choose them over something like Anders Builders series or K&K all wood windows.
Make a personal inspection of the windows you are planning to install.
Have you decided what type? (wood, vinyl, aluminum)
Visit the manufacturer and try the windows yourself. Check hardware and see what is involved in changing glass. Use your own common sense.
Forget the warranty claims, they are not worth the paper it is written on. Most cover the cost of replacements in the labor they charge. Or in their "pro-rated" scams
Marvin Windows honors their warranty. When many mfgs. won a major lawsuit against the supplier of faulty window sealant, Marvin was the only co. that repalced windows. In fact, if they had a complaint about seal failure in one window in a house, and all were made at the same time, they replaced all the windows in the house. Not sure they would still go the extra nine yards today, but they don't cheap out on their warranty.
To be more accurate. Marvin replaced all GLASS including labor, in the house. They did not replace the entire window. The next phase they replaced all glass without labor. In the last phase, they replaced only the glass that had failed. This offer lasted many years beyond the warranty period that applied to the windows in question. The period for bad sealant was in the late 70's to early 80's. I know they continued to replace the glass well in to the 90's. They have a parts catalog that is almost 750 pages with drawings and descriptions of all parts that they have used for every product they make. There is little that they have made that can not be fixed. The best window on the market IMO>
Anyone use Andersen or Jeldwen for wooden windows? I am getting bids on both and don't have the numbers yet but I know Andersen is high and their hardware is Andersen specific.
Is this new or remodel? The problem with Andersen is the double hung window sash are not clad.... they are painted!!!!! Over time, there will be a maintenance issue.... Casements are all right.. The FWH patio doors are painted also!!!!
Ever hear about rotting clad windows? I heard that some have had trouble with water getting behind the clading and rotting the window. This makes sense and if true a painted exterior would be far superior to a clad window as it can just dry off after a rain.
It also seems reasonable to see how a clad could fail. The welded mitered corners might hold fine but how do you really adhear the clading to the wood frame along its entire length. The cladding has to end somewhere and the wood begin. And that would be the weakness.
Curious, if anyone has heard of this.
The question for the buyer is are they clad with roll stock aluminum or are is the cladding an aluminum extrusion? Roll stock typically has a wood backer. Extruded aluminum doesn't. Roll stock is thinner, more prone to denting, is bent into the needed shape, and has no structural strength. Extruded is heavier, stronger and structural.
The Marvins use and extrusion. Pella, Kolbe & Kolbe, Eagle and many others use roll stock.
We are talking about wood windows. So whether rolled AL or extruded the aluminum contacts wood at some point. So again, does water get behind the rolled or extruded alumium and rot the wood?
About 15 or so years ago, Mason Windows, a long-established Canadian (I think) window company went under after just such widespread failures in their aluminum clad wood windows. They were flat clad with rolled stock.
I did a couple of whole-house replacements and saw the results of the failures. What I saw was leakage around the glass/aluminum interface, at the aluminum corner joints and some water accumulation that I strongly suspect was due to condensation. You could take many of the sashes out with a dull spoon.
Since then I have avoided any wood windows clad with any impermeable material. And in the last few years, I have avoided wood windows - period.
I used to be scornful of vinyl windows and think only a hack would put them in, but there have been two trends in Canada in the past few years which have changed my mind. first, the quality of vinyl windows has improved dramatically and, second, the selection of wood windows has gone down the tube because nobody wants them any more and their price has gone up.
The best made wood windows available in my corner of Canada now are American made, therefore expensive. But they don't seem to have the glazing to perform well in winter. Even Marvin windows, made in Minnesota, where it sometimes gets chilly, just don't perform. They are still using narrow gap, nitrogen filled glazing with metal spacers, three qualities/deficiencies you just don't see in Canadian windows. These qualities will cost you for years to come.
We have some Marvins on a job right now which have low e coatings and argon fill but they are still not good enough and these two options cost extra. They are standard with many manufacturers in Canada now.
Ron
Thanks for your detailed reply.
So even in high-end homes you use vinyl?
My beef with the vinyl is, with the exception of fixed pane windows where you can hide all but a thin margin of plastic around the edges, a double-hung window has that ugly plastic bar, if you will, cutting across your view. It just looks crapy in an otherwise wood trimmed window. Perhaps it is ok if you plaster your window returns.
Perhaps I don't work in the high end of the biz.
Perhaps I should be on the discussion board for "Pretty Good Homebuilding" or "OK Homebuilding".
Anyway, I don't see a lot of difference between well painted white wood and vinyl from even a few feet away except that vinyl windows will not have the water tracks of condensation running down them.
Personally, I prefer drywall returns and no trim.
Like this:
Ron
Funny, when I talk about wood I think stained. What is the point of painted wood. I might as well be plastic to go along with the plastic windows. LOL!
So if you paint plastic, foam, MDF, or wood . . . sure white plastic windows are fine.
White painted trim is increasingly "in" in the west. And clearly the Colonial East has white trim as a classic. And with the increase of vinyl windows painted trim is likely to become more common in the west. However, typically in the west people stained wood.
It's a lot easier to custom trim the exterior of a wood framed window? "But to be honest some folks here have been pushing the envelope quite a bit with their unnecessary use if swear words. They just put a character in to replace a letter. But everyone knows what they're saying." Sancho
What?
Okay, try this: it's a lot easier to custom trim a wooden window. "But to be honest some folks here have been pushing the envelope quite a bit with their unnecessary use if swear words. They just put a character in to replace a letter. But everyone knows what they're saying." Sancho
Ok. As I am only vaguely familar with window installation, why would a wood window be easier to custom trim?
You can nail the trim right to the wooden jamb. On windows w/ nailing fins, or flanges, back of the trim needs to be rabbeted, or shimmed, to keep in plane with the wall. "But to be honest some folks here have been pushing the envelope quite a bit with their unnecessary use if swear words. They just put a character in to replace a letter. But everyone knows what they're saying." Sancho
ok, sure.
As you said, the quality of vinyl windows has improved. In Canada (and in the US - to a lesser extent), that improvement has been largely related to imported European vinyl window technology...which is certainly not to say that improvements in native North American products haven't occurred in many areas as well. <!----><!----><!---->
As an aside, a number of very good Canadian companies are now offering fiberglass windows as an option versus vinyl. Marvin's Integrity and Infinity lines are fiberglass. Integrity is not a builder-grade window, although it is more price competitive than traditional Marvin products. Rather, a good part of the window industry sees fiberglass as having a very bright future.<!----><!---->
Regarding the glazing system used by Marvin - ”They are still using narrow gap, nitrogen filled glazing with metal spacers, three qualities/deficiencies you just don't see in Canadian windows. These qualities will cost you for years to come." - I do have to disagree with your assessment, however. <!----><!---->
In fact, a number of Canadian companies - some very well known for quality - use the same system as Marvin. I am not certain what "narrow-gap" means, but the optimum IG space for a window with a LowE2 coating is 7/16" and for a dual pane without LowE (which is an indefensible position anyway) is 9/16". Wider gap spacing does not benefit energy performance and in fact begins to gradually lose energy efficiency (slight decline) at about 7/8". <!----><!---->
Add 100% argon and energy performance increases 16%. Add 50% argon and energy performance increases 8% - note the pattern? Not all consumers want argon fill – in fact, less than half of windows sold today have argon fill - again, probably not the best decision. <!----><!---->
Standard practice at many (most?) window companies - if the units aren't argon filled - is to seal the IG with room air inside. The system used by Marvin (and others) uses pure nitrogen (filled in a vacuum chamber), rather than room air to ensure both cleanliness and moisture control of the airspace. Again, argon fill would certainly result in increased energy performance, but it is ultimately the consumer’s decision.<!----><!---->
Metal spacer…The system used by Marvin (and others) uses a thin-wall stainless steel spacer. Stainless steel is not a good conductor of heat. Of the six most widely used spacer systems in North American windows, the stainless steel spacer would rank third in energy efficiency and is comparable (or in some cases significantly better) in durability and seal longevity with any other system on the market. <!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
While many window folks swear by the “non-metallic” systems – and the two spacers with the best energy performance numbers are non-metallic – the non-metallic systems also have a couple of serious limitations including a “melting temperature” for one system that would preclude its use in the warmest parts of the <!----><!----><!---->US<!----><!---->. The actual edge-of-glass improvement between stainless spacer systems and non-metallic systems is about 3 degrees – based on third-party comparisons of the systems. <!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
And from a joint Canadian/European study of window systems – <!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
The thermal resistance of the spacer bar material influences the glass temperature at the edge-of-glass region of an IG unit. Based on the limited testing performed at IRC and computer modeling at EMPA Switzerland, the spacer bar with the highest thermal resistance shows the warmest glass temperature on the warm side and the coldest temperature on the cold side of the glass at a distance 5 to 60 mm from the edge of the IG unit. But the effect of the type of spacer bar on the overall thermal resistance (and total heat loss) through windows depends heavily on the window design and material. Therefore, the full impact of thermal characteristics of the spacer bar material on the thermal resistance and the condensation resistance of a window should only be determined by testing complete window assemblies. <!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Oberon,
It's my understanding that. low-e or not, argon filled or not, the r-value of a sealed glazing unit increases as you increase the glass spacing up to about 3/4" or 7/8". The Marvin windows I wrote of appear to have an internal space of about 3/8". I haven't measured this. These days, that's too small.
In order to define what is optimum, surely one must consider the cost of the energy saved or not saved. The we know that what is optimum today will be barely adequate tomorrow and less than that the day after.
What I see in the Marvin windows installed on the job is condensation around the rim of the glass (5 to 60 mm from the edge of the IG unit) and in a patch in the centre while there is a Canadian made steel door nearby with a glazing unit in it which has a very little bit of condensation at the bottom edge. That glazing is low-e, argon and 3/4" gap with plastic spacer.
I see a difference in performance between the two types of glazing side by side in the same conditions. I infer that the difference I see is due to differences in the construction of the units. And what I infer agrees pretty well with what you have reported, too.
Ron
Ron,
Although there are window companies who will suggest that wider spacings (3/4", 7/8", 1") are better for energy performance it simply is not the case.
There is no loss of performance in going wider (up to about 7/8" - and the energy performance loss after that is very slight - but there is a downturn), but there is no gain in energy performance either. An IGU with a softcoat LowE coating reaches peak efficiency at 7/16" airspace, and an uncoated IGU reaches its performance peak peak at 1/2" to 9/16".
Actually, even a 1/4" or 3/8" spacing will work very well if filled with krypton rather than argon - but that is an entirely different issue. Krypton actually reaches its peak performance level at ~1/4" and at that level will outperform argon-filled wider airspace windows. However, krypton is very expensive and it is much less available than is argon.
The Marvin windows in question are definitely LowE coated with argon fill? As mentioned, those are options and are not standard. Also, I would contact Marvin about the window that you mention in your post. The fact that there is condensation in the center of the unit indicates a problem with the IG that is a warranty issue. That should not be happening under any circumstance.
Also, just verifying that these are new Marvin windows, right? I am really curious about the possible 3/8" spacing. My understanding is that the system that Marvin uses doesn't come in a 3/8" version...doesn't mean that it can't happen of course, but it now has me curious and I am going to follow-up on that with some folks I know.
Thanks and good discussion!
Oberon,
I'm always learning.
I didn't know there was not much to be gained with increased spacing beyond 9/16". The window companies have been telling me that the 3/4" spacing is as good as it gets.
With an air fill, would it be true that the R-value increases with spacing up to 3/4"?
The Marvins we have on the job have a small spacing. I have not measured it. I don't know for sure what it is. It looks like 3/8 or so. These windows are new and definitely labelled as low-e and argon fill.
I have seen condensation in a patch in the middle of the glazing before in other windows in very cold weather. This is not a warranty issue. These units are not gassed. They are just not very good at keeping the heat in.
Our problem is diminishing some now as we've had a dehumidifier running for a week along with a fan to stir the air about. Many of the windows which are to be bright finished, are already water stained, though.
I hate the dm things.
Ron
Ron,
I had to do a little digging to find it, but from a manufacturer Technical Service Bulletin (hard copy) pertaining to "Glass Units Having Indoor Condensation Rings..."
The TSB states that the reason that there are condensation rings in the center of the glass is because the glass is touching at that point. When the inner and outer lites touch, "insulating value is lost and condensation forms...", and that sure ain't right!
Anyway, the TSB goes on to state, in the final line that "...replacement of the glass may be required".
Basically, condensation rings are not normal and they are a warranty issue. By the glass touching there is the obvious - and totally unacceptable - loss of insultaing value, but the glass touching can also damage the LowE layer and further harm the efficiency of the unit.
The TSB "suggests" that if there are condensation rings then "the window company or glass manufacturer should be contacted to confirm that the glass is indeed touching in the center".
Couldn't get a follow-up on the 3/8" spacer - everybody is in Orlando currently - which makes sense to me and makes me wonder why I didn't go to the show this year!
And finally, 3/4" spacing is certainly not a bad thing and neither is 7/8" or 13/16". Window companies design their products to meet certain specifications. There are a number of factors to consider besides the glass and the width of the airspace. If a company feels that their best overall performance results when using a wider airspace, then by all means they should do so. My emphasis was on the IG unit and not on the finished window system.
I am curious which spacer system you were referring to when you mentioned "plastic spacer"? I am not familiar with a plastic one (which certainly doesn't mean that there isn't someone out there using one!) - or were you referring in general to non-metallic systems? There are over 1000 window companies in North America and there are any number of different ideas being tried!
Oberon
Oberon,
It's a treat to find somebody new to me who is so well informed.
I have never heard of glass touching in a sealed unit. On Monday, I will put a straight edge across a couple of these units and see what I can find out. I was thinking that the IG manufacturers might be putting as little gas as possible into the units to save a few bucks, but to have the two sheets of glass touch would be remarkable.
Reminds me of a story a sash builder told me a long time ago about the sealed unit that exploded all over him one morning as he was shaving. Low atmospheric pressure - high internal pressure - Bang! That was in the days of air fills done at ambient pressure.
the windows in my own house have a plastic spacer carrying the brand name "warm edge super spacer". The windows themselves are by ACAN windows in Newfoundland.
I don't know if they manufacture the glazing units. There is an IGMAC number and a CSA standard number engraved on the glass, but it doesn't tell me who manufactured the units.
Ron
The smallest glasing at this time is 1/2", I am almost positive.
Mongo1,
What is your opinion on Marvins Integrity Line of Fiberglass Windows. I am considering these for a new home.
Jim
This year began with a new design for Integrity DH and Gliders. I love the improvements that they have made. They have addrerssed all of the previos problems with the product. The new design is modeled after the Marvin Clad Ultimat DH. I uses the sasme weather strip and balance tube sytem which has a good history. The new design is also more historically accurate if that intersts you. They also just started a simulated divided lite line on the interior as well as the exterior so you don't have to go with the cheap grilles between the glass look. If it is for your personal home, I would still go with the higher end Marvin. The price increase is not really that much in the long run. Feel free to email me with any more questions.
Mike
Ron,
I have eventually warmed up to vinyl windows myself. For whatever reason, their mechanical function seems to be much better than any other modern window I've encountered, and the lower price is always nice.
The only real "problem" I still have is that they can't be painted. If a homeowner doesn't like white or almond, it's tough to sell a vinyl window.
Have you heard of any paintable vinyl windows?
Ragnar,
Vinyl can be painted. I have painted vinyl siding successfully.
Why would you, you might ask? Well, it is otherwise impossible to colour match new vinyl siding to old.
As for windows, the peopleI have asked say that their windows should not be painted. I think it might be an issue of heat related expansion and contraction causing warping, but I am not sure. Perhaps there would be no problem painting the inside.
Colours have been appearing on the market in the last five years. I have seen ivory and green. They know the customers want it and I'm sure they are working on it.
Maybe somebody should build a window which has a snap-on coloured sheathing. That would increase the range of colours they could make available, increase the profit opportunity and give them a market down the road with people who wanted to change colours. Design that and patent it -quick!
Painting vinyl just involves a high adhesive latex primer and a normal latex top coat. With siding, the best thing is to paint it on the ground, install it and touch it up after so the sheets are not locked together by a paint bond.Any good paint store will advise you on which of their products is the best for the job.
Ron
Ron,
Are you a Newf? I spent three years at Argentia back in my previous career. Totally loved the area and the people. I have been Screeched!
As to glass and windows, that is what I do today, and I actually get paid to relate theis same material to folks in my day-to-day routine...
The spacer system that you have in your windows is called Super Spacer and it is made by Edge Tech in Cambridge, Ohio. The Super Spacer raw product is produced by Edge Tech and it is applied by the window manufacturer at their facility.
Super Spacer has an acrylic-based adhesive as the structural seal and usually hot melt butyl as the primary or moisture seal - but, window manufacturers can also use polysulfides, polyurethanes, even silicones to seal the IG. The problem is that polysufides, polyurethans, and silicones tend to be somewhat to very porous to air and moisture and I personally would hesitate to use them as a primary moisture seal.
Super Spacer does have the best thermal performance numbers in the industry and probably the only downside to the product is that since it is applied by the window manufacturer there can be a potential for differences in quality between companies - for example when using different moisture seal materials. Many companies have invested in automated equipment to apply the Super Seal - usually Bystronic systems - product to the glass, but many (if not most?) companies still apply it by hand which can lead to variations in quality.
But when applied correctly, it is a very nice product.
The stainless system that Marvin uses is called XL and it is manufactured by Cardinal Glass. The process for filling the Cardinal IG's includes a trip into a vacuum chamber where the air is evacuated and replaced by whatever gas the company chooses to fill the IG with. It could be 100% argon to 50% argon/50% nitrogen, to 100% nitrogen - to whatever the customer chooses. This is also a very nice process and it is probably the most accurate fill and seal system going. As far as I know, only one other company besides Cardinal does a 100% fill-check on IG's manufactured. Many window companies (quite literally) are guessing at their IG fill levels.
The advantage of the vacuum chamber (patented process btw) is that it ensures that the fill level and gas mix is exact. In this system there really is no way to "under-fill" the IGU, so there has to be another issue involved with the units that you are having problems with. This system is highly automated with constant quality control - so failure rates tend to be very low (about .1 of 1% last I heard). But those failures that do occur are more likely to be a manufacturing glitch rather than a material issue.
Like Super Spacer (and all of the better systems on the market), the XL has a two-part seal system - polyisobutylene (or PIB) as the primary or moisture seal and silicone as the structural seal. PIB is the only butyl that is completely impervious to moisture transfer, and as I mentioned earlier, the XL system is third in energy performance, about 3 degrees F below Super Spacer at the edge. But, there can be variations between the products depending on the materials used in the sash by the window company - as pointed out in the excerpt from the Canadian/European study.
As a comparison, a softcoat LowE coating applied to the IG has a much greater effect on overall unit performance than does the spacer (aluminum excepted) system used. But, in a home where increased moisture levels tend to raise the dew point to higher temperature, then the sash edge temperature can be a significant issue. Also, the style of window can be an issue as well as the overall quality of the materials used in the the window manufacture and the level of workmanship in the unit.
And, per the "exploding" IG unit - that is actually possible in extreme situations, oftne related to installation or settling issues. If it was a tempered IG then there are a couple other variables involved as well.
Edited 2/10/2007 11:44 am ET by Oberon
Oberon,
All my family except those who are within yelling distance, are in Labrador. I lived in St John's for a few years before moving to Nova Scotia, though.
What did you do in Argentia? Something hush-hush with the US Navy? Was getting into glass a reaction to that?
Ron
Hi Ron,
Yep, I was in the Navy at the time. Argentia was a joint CF and USN operation - about 2/3 US folks and 1/3 Can folks.
Although the base at Arg was once much bigger; when I was there its purpose was as a location for a SOSUS site. At the time, SOSUS was a highly classified system - but during the 90's a great deal of the secrecy that had surrounded the system was declassified primarily do to both changing technology and changing world politics.
Tom Clancy mentioned SOSUS in a number of his books - starting with The Hunt for Red October.
And the glass thing is totally unrelated to the Navy thing - just a complete change in careers.
Oberon,
You guys inside might have thought it was a big secret. Your full capabilities might have been secret, but everybody knew pretty much what you were doing inside.
At one point in the mid 70's, the US Navy contracted the CCGS John Cabot to lay a network in the English Channel because the Cabot was the only cableship with the capability to bury a line. I can remember one of the stewards telling me about it, what is was for, where it was, what it could do. He also told me not to spread it around as it was all very secret. OK, then.
Around the same time, I worked briefly for the Canadian Navy in Ottawa. One of the projects in the office then was the design of a small vessel to lay a temporary network in sahllow water for use as a maintenance tool on the navy's own ships. They told me they could run a destroyer over this network, analyze the recording and maybe tell the captain his port side number 2 shaft bearing needed attention. This was over a beer or two. Perhaps there was some exaggeration. No doubt you know for sure.
Ron
Ron,
I said it was "highly classified", I never said it was a secret...
The local folks all pretty much knew what we did - considering sailors like beer and beer loosens tongues and local people certainly have ears. Not counting the number of US sailors who married Newfoundland girls...who have parties and serve beer and have wives, be they Newfoundlanders or from elsewhere, who also have ears. It was the same at any of our facilities.
But as you said, information about the actual system capabilites was generally secure -
Edited 2/12/2007 7:35 am ET by Oberon
Oberon,
Don't worry. They never ever told anybody they didn't know.
I put a straight edge on those Marvin windows today. The biggest deflection I found was 3/32" over a 26" width. That's not enough for the glass to touch, but 3/16" reduction in the maybe 3/8 or 7/16 space was enough to reduce the insulation value in the centre of the panel so the temperature went below the dew point.
The problem first showed itself when we began to heat the slab downstairs. I think we were driving a lot of water out of the concrete and into the air. After running a dehumidifier for two weeks, it doesn't appear to be a big problem any more. The windows are all still frozen shut, though. I still think they are crap.
Ron
Which Marvin windows did you put in? "The problem first showed itself when we began to heat the slab downstairs. I think we were driving a lot of water out of the concrete and into the air." I suspect the moisture load this produced would overwhelm any window. The sashes are obviously frozen shut from the water condensing and probably running to the bottom of the sash and freezing.
woodroe,
Precisely right. The water condensed on the windows, ran down and froze on the outside. Yet right beside these Marvin wood double hungs there was a run-of-the-mill steel door with a better sealed glazing unit in it with next to no condensation on it.
I won't be putting in any more Marvin windows. I can get low function for a fraction of their price.
Ron
Never worried - they were good folks who understood the issues involved and were always very supportive of what we did.
Not sure what happened with those windows - other than as you ssaid there was a lot of moisture in the air.
I have wood windows in my home that use the same spacer system as the Marvins (only my windows are not as good as are Marvins - they came with the house), and yet while we have had temps that bottomed out this past week at -24F, I have had no moisture issues (except in the bathroom where the exhaust fan picked a very poor time to decide it no longer wanted to run - and no way I am going into the attic to see what's wrong when it is way below zero outside - I will accept a little moisture in that case), and my house is not very dry, whether the bathroom fan is running or not.
Do you still have rings? Wasn't sure from the post. That you had rings does indicate that the glass was touching at one point - that is the only way to get center-of-glass rings. Under normal conditions, the center of the glass is the warmest part of any window system.
I have seen windows with an edge spacer gap of 16mm that collapsed to 2mm at the center that show condensation on a daily basis.
I agree - and in the right circumstance they can even break if the problem is severe enough.
Ron,
Thanks for the reply. I have heard of others succesfully painting vinyl *siding*, too. I wonder why the window manufacturers are against painting the vinyl on the windows. Is there a difference in the material itself?
I've thought of the snap-on cladding, too. I just think it would look cheap, however.
A truly paintable vinyl would be a real breakthrough. I think most homeowners are uncomfortable in "locking in" with a color for the rest of their life!
As for me, I do 95% of my work on houses built before 1930, so stained trim is very common. The inability to integrate a white (or almond, grey, whatever) window into a stained trim schedule is a major difficulty for my clients.
Ok sounds like a great idea to paint cheap white windows but How Long does this color Last before peeling and repainting?
bigboss,
The window companies recommend against painting vinyl windows, possibly, I'm not sure about this, because of increased heat buildup with darker colours might cause warping. Vinyl expands and contracts more with temperature changes than wood does.
What I said above was that it can be done, that paint will stick to vinyl. I have had to paint vinyl siding on a repair job in order to make the colour match, but I'm sure the colour won't stay matched for more than a year or two. The paint and the original siding will fade at different rates.
It might be possible to paint the inside of a vinyl window without doing any harm. I don't know. I have never done this.
With windows, I wouldn't paint them anyway because I hate painting windows. I hope I'll never have to paint another window even once.
Ron
I also live in Canada, and based on your post, I am curious to know what window company you recommend? I was originally going to go with wood windows from Marvin, however I am still researching everything (including reading this post). This is for a new construction house (2,500 ft2 2 storey). Thanks.
grandchat,
Myself, I would avoid wood windows. In fact I did recently build my new house using ACAN vinyl windows. I chose them over several othres that seemed to offer similar performance for nearly the same price because they had a board/backband/sill exterior profile and the others only offered a picture frame exterior. That was the only significant difference between these and two or three other brands,
If you are driven by considerations of maintenance - go with vinyl.
If you are driven by considerations of energy conservation - go with casements.
If, as Ragnar posted above, you have to have wood for esthetic reasons, I don't know what to say. There might be good wood windows around somewhere. The Bonneville Gold line used to be pretty good and available throughout eastern Canada. But buy Canadian if you possibly can.
The Marvin windows we seem to be stuck with have a u rating on their labels of 0.31. R-value is the inverse of u so is R 3.2. The R-value of my vinyl windows is R 3.8, which is almost 20% better for less than half the price and a "lifetime" warranty on the glazing for a small premium.
Ron
Ron,
Although you are 100% correct when stating that R-value and U-value are inverse of one another, it isn't always accurate to compare R-values and U-values of windows by calculating from one to another.
As listed, the Marvin .31 U-value is a "whole window" rating. More often than not, when a window's energy performance is listed as R-value (or U-value derived from R-value) it is a center-of-glass reading and not a rating of the entire window performance - (I am trying to remeber the center-of-glass R-value for the LowE / argon mix that Marvin uses and I think it is R-4.2 - but I am going by memory, so don't take that number as gospel - but I think that is the correct number correct).
Unfortunately, some less-than-scrupulous salesfolks make a living by comparing their window's "R-value performance" to a competitor's by converting the competitors U-value to an R-value - but, I am not in any way suggesting that you are doing such - I respect the heck out of your opinions and observations here - I just wanted to point out something that most people (even many in the industry) don't really understand about the differences between the two values when used to rate window performance.
Another option to consider is that there are a number of very good window companies in Canada that offer fiberglass sash/frames. A good many knowledgeable window folks see fiberglass as the next big thing in the window industry and they are definitely worth considering.
Oberon,
Quite right in your view of R and u values and how they get misused. The 0.31 for the Marvins is a number for the whole window as is the number for the ACAN windows. Now whether they tested these things the same way by the same standard is another question.
A few years ago I installed some Marvin fiberglass windows and I thought then they were a pretty good product except that they required trim to be added to the outside after installation. That is often desirable in a renovation or replacement. It's more nuisance than anything else in new construction unless the exterior trim is going to be something special.
I should find out more about what fibreglass windows are like now.
Ron
"A few years ago I installed some Marvin fiberglass windows..."Those would be Integrity Windows (by Marvin). Not their best.
Ron,
If I could count the number of times I have had to go thru the R versus U discussion with folks! There are a great many people out there who are convinced that window companies use U-value (or more commonly U-factor) in an attempt to "fool" them about window thermal performance...when in fact (and you may know this already), U-value measurement preceeds R-value by about 40 years and R-value was really developed by the fiberglass industry in an attempt to help people visualize the difference in the insulating value of different materials and different thicknesses of the same material.
What many folks also don't realize is that R-value takes into account only conduction thru the material and not radiation or convection. Radiation of heat is often much more important when dealing with window performance than is conduction - so R-value can be very misleading. And I am sure that you have seen windows that were poorly installed? Well, then we can definitely consider convection as an issue as well...
Integrity is Marvin's entry into the fiberglass market and like many brand new products it has gone thru improvement over the years.
In Canada there are three companies, that I can think of off the top-of-my-head, that make fiberglass windows - I think it would be worth your time to check out some of their products. Fiberglass is definitely becoming a big part of the future of window frame materials.
Edited 2/14/2007 9:06 pm ET by Oberon
"If I could count the number of times I have had to go thru the R versus U discussion with folks! "
Well, don't do it. Actually, please don't do it! Actually we have had it addressed forty-seven times in this thread alone. I doubt two people care.
Ok, carry-on. What is the difference between R and U.
Thanks for the help.
I did some research last night and I think I have it narrowed down to Fibertec (Fiberglass), Inline (also Fiberglass) or the Acan ones you recommended. Any further thoughts on these brands? Again - any help is appreciated.
Grandchat,
You are welcome.
I have nothing more to say on that especially since, as I make clear above, I know very little about fiberglass windows.
However, Oberon says I should learn, so I will.
When I installed the fiberglass Marvins a few years ago, I had never handled any windows but wood windows, so i have to admit they did look good by comparison.
The wood windows I had seen had been getting progressively worse, dropping one detail after antoher that made them function better in order to preserve the manufacturer's margins. Cheaper hardware, thinner jambs, cruder joinery. It is no wonder that everybody ran to the vinyl windows when they started to become available.
Ron
Well, I think it is certainly worth your time...
And while I am not suggesting, endorsing, or otherwise recommending, the third fiberglass window manufacturer that I thought of was Accurate Dorwin (not sure of exact spelling).
The other two fiberglass window manufacturers (of the three that were in my head) were the two that grandchat mentioned as well.
Looking into replacing the 100 year old double hung windows with casement windows and was wondering what would be the best company for this type?
I have read so much about fiberglass, vinyl and wood that the only thing I am sure of is I no longer want wood windows. What company has the best casement replacement windows today?
Ron, have you ever looked at the Polytech windows made in Baddeck? Euro style tilt-and-turn? Good product.Cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, Nova Scotia.
Adrian,
I have seen Polytech windows. I 've put in a few and think they are an excellent product.
I will not install any clad wood window, though. I think the whole concept is misguided.
Where are you going to be in early August? Somewhere in Quebec, maybe?
Ron
Argon fill in double-pane windows is a crock.
And you say that why?
Cuz' I had thermo!There are two possibilities with argon-filled windows:A) There's little or no argon actually in the window. In this case, you paid for nothing, but the performance doesn't change.B) There's argon, and it diffuses through the window (if the seals don't fail first...), causing negative pressure that distorts the window, forcing the panes together, risking the integrity of the window and making the U-value HIGHER than it would be with air and forcing you to either hope that the window won't fail before enough nitrogen diffuses across or making you drill a hole to deliberately introduce air to avoid catastrophic failue, meaning that you have a bunch of very expensive windows with holes in them.B) is true because of the behavior of gases--partial pressures and diffusion. Your window is a semipermeable membrane--gas can diffuse slowly through the glass itself. The problem comes because there is a drastically different pressure due to argon on one side of the pane than the other. The argon moves from the area of high pressure (if it's easier, think "concentration") to that of low pressure--from inside your window to the outside--trying to equalize the partial pressure of the argon. Meanwhile, nitrogen, oxygen, CO2, and the other gases are trying to get into the window to equalize their partial pressures. The problem is that the pressure difference is larger between AR in and out of the window than it is between any other gas, which means that gas goes out of the window much faster than it goes in. This creates a vacuum, puts the panes under stress, and killed the U-value as it draws the center of the panes closer together.It is not a question of whether this will happen if you have a noble gas fill. It's only a matter of how long the process with take--most windows have had problems after 5-15 years--and whether the seals will fail before the vacuum begins to cause problems.Either way, you've spent a lot of money on a feature that will improve your windows' effiency for a MAXIMUM of 15 years at an increasingly reduced level than originally but more likely will begin showing noticeable performance declines in a year or two.
Interesting. Let's address your points one-by-one.
You are correct that when installing a (supposed) argon-filled window that you have two possibilites -
First, the IG really is filled with argon and second it really isn't filled with argon - despite the fact that you specified and paid for argon in the unit.
There are actually several methods used to fill an IG with argon. The current best method places the IG in a vacuum chamber where the air is evacuated and the gas (or gas-mix) is introduced prior to the unit being permanently sealed. The argon fill level can then be tested by using spark-induced breakdown spectroscopy. This results in a very accurate measure of the gas fill level in the IG.
Per your point that argon "...diffuses through the window..." and "...is true because of the behavior of gases--partial pressures and diffusion. Your window is a semipermeable membrane--gas can diffuse slowly through the glass itself..."
If you wouldn't mind, can you explain that one a bit more indepth, please? Particularly the part about the window (again I assume you mean glass) being a "semipermeable membrane".
Glass is, by definition, is a supercooled liquid or a non-crystalline solid - please explain where it is semipermeable.
"Meanwhile, nitrogen, oxygen, CO2, and the other gases are trying to get into the window to equalize their partial pressures."
My first question would be "CO2"? Where does the carbon dioxide - that wants to move between the lites of the IG - come from? In what concentration?
Second question would be what "other gases", besides those that you previously mentioned, are trying to "equalize their partial pressures"?
You also mention seal failure several times. Again, please define? Seal failure can include several different scenarios. And, are you addressing a particular system? I can list six different ones right now that are currently in use - and several others that are no longer used because they were found to be inadequate and had failure issues - such as you mention.
"It is not a question of whether this will happen if you have a noble gas fill. It's only a matter of how long the process with take--most windows have had problems after 5-15 years--and whether the seals will fail before the vacuum begins to cause problems."
Again, do you have numbers to back up this claim? Surveys? Actual on site analysis? I am not trying to be overly critical, but there are many many millions of IG's with argon that are doing quite well without the problems that you describe.
Do IG's fail? It does happen. Current estimates, depending on the IG seal system used, range from zero failures (claimed by one manufacturer) to a high of about 6% (or better), not claimed by anyone, but there nonetheless.
You have claimed 5-15 years to "vacuum" failure (for all IG's built with argon?)and even shorter for seal failure, and I am very curious what you base that on?
Edited 2/18/2007 7:54 pm ET by Oberon
BTW, there have been a growing number of failures exactly as I have predicted. Stumps people who don't get the physics. If I'm wrong, you have to come pu for a reason for the failures.>Particularly the part about the window (again I assume you mean glass) being a "semipermeable membrane". Er. It is. What else do you want me to say? *g* The "semi" is very true in this case, as it takes years for a big difference to occur. I've found some studies, but they tend to be VERY specialized--"Light-controlled gas permeability of mesoporous silica glass bearing photochromic spironaphthoxazine on its surface," "Gas permeability resistance of insulating glass sealants," etc. It just doesn't matter under most circumstances. For example, if you canned food, the level of permeability of the glass is so low that the food won't ever spoil. But when you've got a window--with a HUGE surface area and with very little resistance to pressure--high or low--because of its shape--it does matter.>Glass is, by definition, is a supercooled liquid or a non-crystalline solid - please explain where it is semipermeable. Just about everything is gas-permeable to some extent. The question is "How much" and "Do I care?">Where does the carbon dioxide - that wants to move between the lites of the IG - come from? In what concentration?Um. Same place the other gases that make up the atmophere come from. The outside. I listed them in order of descending concentration. Nitrogen's equilibrium is at roughly 600 mmHg. O2's equilibrium is at roughly 159 mmHg. CO2 would be at equilibrium at .3 mmHg. I didn't list Ar because it is diffusing the other direction. It is probably at 760 mmHg (100% fill) or 380 mmHg (50% fill). At equilibrium, it will be at about 7 mmHg. Big problem for the window owner.>Second question would be what "other gases", besides those that you previously mentioned, are trying to "equalize their partial pressures"?Every gas that makes up the mixture of the atmosphere plus the gases inside the window--which would include methane, Kr, and other noble gases.If you want to calculate to rates, you'd have to have the diffusion coefficient for that particular window glass (which window manufacturers aren't even bothering to test), and you'd need to use Fick's Second Law of Diffusion to calculate the rates of each gas SEPARATELY. Add up the partial pressures according to Dalton's Law, and voila! You will know--if the seals don't fail--what kind of vacuum you'll be dealing with.>Again, do you have numbers to back up this claim?I have a number of individual documented failures as well as an ME article that I read a long time ago that agreed with me and also documented a number of failures THEY found.Honestly, the chances of the seal surviving these kind of pressures is pretty low. It probably won't leak so much that you start having condensation, but no matter what, your Ar will be gone. Kr would only be worse.>I am not trying to be overly critical, but there are many many millions of IG's with argon that are doing quite well without the problems that you describe.You're right that there aren't millions of CATASTROPHIC seal failures, and though the problem with the vacuum is clearly known to the companies from their blase reactions to it, there aren't millions of windos that are now distorted because of the vacuum. But I'd bet you cold, hard cash that they are not performing close to the U-values they were rated for--because of *small* seal failures that have let in air to equalize the pressure.Though window manufacturers know that the vacuum problem exists, it's curious how uninterested they are in doing tests of 10-year-old noble gas-filled windows...I often call Ar snake oil because you usually can't tell that it's there or when it's gone. But physics tell you that it WILL be gone, and the occasionally extremely noticeable failure tells you how long it's taking...---BTW, you've mentioned in the past that lightbulbs also have inert fills. Yep, they do. Doesn't matter. First, the lightbulb fails before huge amounts of O2 diffuse through the gas. (If it did, it'd fail, anyhow!) And second, they're spherical--they hold up very well to partial vacuums. But....have you ever noticed that a lightbulb that is really old becomes extremely fragile, versus one that burned out after only a year or two? Even setting it in the trash can gently can often break it. The reason is the pressure difference between inside the bulb and the surrounding atmosphere. It has nothing to do with "old glass" being more brittle.I will try to find the article again. I just don't know it I'll have any luck!
Edited 2/19/2007 8:30 pm ET by Reyesuela
BTW, there have been a growing number of failures exactly as I have predicted. Stumps people who don't get the physics. If I'm wrong, you have to come pu for a reason for the failures.<!----><!----><!---->
Actually, the growing number of failures is incorrect in the sense that as more IG’s are currently produced there are more failures – in fact, the opposite is true. The failures that are seen today (with some exceptions that I will go into later) are units that were built using primarily organic seal materials – such as polysulfides – in years past. The “peak” of failure due to argon dissipation has passed. There are still units out there that need to be either repaired or replaced, but the number of field failures is actually decreasing by a large amount when compared to some years back.
>>>>>>Particularly the part about the window (again I assume you mean glass) being a "semipermeable membrane".
Er. It is. What else do you want me to say? *g*
No, it isn’t – unless you want to consider the “semi-permeable” in the theoretical sense that pretty much anything could be considered permeable to something. Will argon migrate through glass? Yep, but not in my lifetime or yours – it would take many times longer than either of us will be around.
And as you said – “Just about everything is gas-permeable to some extent. The question is "How much" and "Do I care?" In this case virtually “not at all” and “no”, because it isn’t an issue. It simply isn’t happening. Again, as you said - The "semi" is very true in this case, as it takes years for a big difference to occur. MANY years.
I've found some studies, but they tend to be VERY specialized--"Light-controlled gas permeability of mesoporous silica glass bearing photochromic spironaphthoxazine on its surface,” ……You are correct – these studies tend to be VERY specialized and have little relationship to an ordinary window performing in the real world. And, to use your particular quote – they are talking about photo-sensitive coatings – possibly even sun glasses in fact:
Mesoporous – any material that has pore diameters between 2 and 50 nm. How small is that? Well, 2nm is the approximate diameter of a single DNA strand.<!----><!---->
Photochromic – basically, glass that contains materials that darken when exposed to UV and lighten when UV is absent. <!----><!---->
Spironaphthoxazine – one of several materials used to block UV and to cause the darkening of lenses when exposed to UV
They could be talking about sunglasses in that discussion.
"Gas permeability resistance of insulating glass sealants," etc. <!----><!---->
Now we are getting somewhere. Argon diffusion is thru the materials that make up the IGU seal and not thru the glass. Simple and direct. The diffusion potential thru the sealant materials is many magnitudes greater than the potential for glass migration.
But, as I mentioned previously, the problem with argon migration due to the materials used is very well known and those particular materials are no longer in use my most major manufacturers. Not saying that no one uses them – but for the most part with the higher-end units they are no longer being used.
Current technology uses polyisobutylene as the primary gas seal in an IG unit. PIB is the only butyl known to be impermeable to gas. It blocks argon in and other gases out of the airspace. Current technology – both lab and field measured and documented indicates that an argon loss of approximately 1% per year is a realistic objective. That 1% per year has become something of an unofficial industry standard and in fact is due to the fact that it is impossible to make a perfect seal in something as dynamic as a window IG. Current technology in that area is quite good, but not perfect.
It just doesn't matter under most circumstances. For example, if you canned food, the level of permeability of the glass is so low that the food won't ever spoil. But when you've got a window--with a HUGE surface area and with very little resistance to pressure--high or low--because of its shape--it does matter.<!----><!---->
Permeability = solubility x diffusion speed.
Permeability of a material is affected by the particular gas involved, by the material itself (which is more of a factor when dealing with polymers), and temperature. In fact, it is very difficult to predict the permeability of a material at 100C if the permeability is know at 10C. Temperature can play a huge factor in that case but –
Shape and size? Not an issue in the permeability of a material. IF a particular material is permeable, then shape and size can affect the rate of the diffusion. But if a small sample of a material isn’t permeable then a larger sample won’t be permeable either.
>>>>>>Glass is, by definition, is a supercooled liquid or a non-crystalline solid - please explain where it is semi permeable.
>>>>>>Where does the carbon dioxide - that wants to move between the lites of the IG - come from? In what concentration?
Um. Same place the other gases that make up the atmophere come from. The outside. I listed them in order of descending concentration. Nitrogen's equilibrium is at roughly 600 mmHg. O2's equilibrium is at roughly 159 mmHg. CO2 would be at equilibrium at .3 mmHg. I didn't list Ar because it is diffusing the other direction. It is probably at 760 mmHg (100% fill) or 380 mmHg (50% fill). At equilibrium, it will be at about 7 mmHg. Big problem for the window owner.<!----><!---->
My comment on CO2 was meant that it is about .03% of atmospheric gas – I wouldn’t even bother to consider it. Methane is .0002%, again why bother? Particularly since a very large amount of both CO2 and methane are in the upper atmosphere.
Kr or krypton was an interesting choice since krypton is actually a better IG insulating material than is argon – krypton migrating into a window would be a good thing actually.
If you want to calculate to rates, you'd have to have the diffusion coefficient for that particular window glass (which window manufacturers aren't even bothering to test), and you'd need to use Fick's Second Law of Diffusion to calculate the rates of each gas SEPARATELY. Add up the partial pressures according to <!----><!----><!---->Dalton<!----><!---->'s Law, and voila! You will know--if the seals don't fail--what kind of vacuum you'll be dealing with.<!----><!---->
True, Fick’s law does apply and if there was actually diffusion present thru the glass – which there is not - then that argument would make sense.
However, since argon and oxygen (for example) have twice the permeability of nitrogen, in the case where there is diffusion – thru the seal and not thru the glass – then argon will leave the IG at twice the rate of nitrogen entering. The result? Collapsed glass – as you have described – but, the diffusion is thru the seal and NOT thru the glass.
>>>>>>Again, do you have numbers to back up this claim?
I have a number of individual documented failures as well as an ME article that I read a long time ago that agreed with me and also documented a number of failures THEY found.<!----><!---->
I likely have access to many times as many failures as you have access to – again related to seal material issues and not glass diffusion – because there is no glass diffusion.
Honestly, the chances of the seal surviving these kind of pressures is pretty low. It probably won't leak so much that you start having condensation, but no matter what, your Ar will be gone. Kr would only be worse.<!----><!---->
Actually, the seals have held up rather well. As you mention, if there was catastrophic failure then the IG would have to be replaced. But, with simple argon migration then the seal should be fine once the internal pressure is reestablished.
>>>>>>I am not trying to be overly critical, but there are many many millions of IG's with argon that are doing quite well without the problems that you describe.
You're right that there aren't millions of CATASTROPHIC seal failures, and though the problem with the vacuum is clearly known to the companies from their blase reactions to it, there aren't millions of windos that are now distorted because of the vacuum. <!----><!---->
As for the manufacturers being “blasé” about this issue, well if you search the appropriate literature you will find that various window companies and glass / IG manufacturers have spent many (many!) millions of dollars on warranty claims. You will also find that many window companies (I will mention Marvin since they were the original company in this thread) have voluntarily extended their warranties on this particular problem well past the original expiration dates.
Blasé reactions? You truly have no idea how un-blasé the IG and glass companies are about this issue. And honestly, there aren’t millions of windows distorted by this issue both because of ongoing repair efforts for many years and because (fortunately, at the time) the vast majority of IG’s manufactured back when this was a problem didn’t have argon fill.
But I'd bet you cold, hard cash that they are not performing close to the U-values they were rated for--because of *small* seal failures that have let in air to equalize the pressure.
Actually, I would take that bet because equalizing the pressure does return the window to a very acceptable U value. Case-in-point, interior IG condensation (between lites) due to a seal breach is a cosmetic problem. In an originally unfilled, non-LowE, dual pane window, whether the seal is intact or if it is open to atmosphere makes no difference in energy performance. The U-value is the same in either case.
Though window manufacturers know that the vacuum problem exists, it's curious how uninterested they are in doing tests of 10-year-old noble gas-filled windows...<!----><!---->
Again, I know of tests being conducted as we speak. Until very recently it wasn’t possible to test for argon in the field without destroying the IG. Now there is a method – called spark-induced breakdown spectroscopy – that can accurately field-test IG’s for argon fill levels. This thing cost about $10,000 when it first arrived, but it may be a little less now. There are about 300 of them in <!---->North America<!----> last I heard – and one company alone probably has about 100 of them (give or take a few). That company has conducted field tests and on-going studies of argon fill issues. <!----><!---->
I often call Ar snake oil because you usually can't tell that it's there or when it's gone. But physics tell you that it WILL be gone, and the occasionally extremely noticeable failure tells you how long it's taking...<!----><!---->
True, it is impossible to tell if an IG is argon filled without specific (expensive) testing unless (a) the unit has an obvious seal failure – i.e. moisture between the lites; or (b) the unit has collapsed; or (c) the IGU is pulled and taken to a lab for testing. None of which are very satisfying – obviously. But, physics DOES NOT say that it will be gone – at least not thru the glass - and certainly not in any sense of a normal lifetime.<!----><!---->
I will try to find the article again. I just don't know it I'll have any luck!<!----><!---->
Good discussion!
<!----> <!---->
<!----> <!---->
Edited 2/21/2007 7:40 am ET by Oberon
10 + years ago I spent 4 days up at Marvin windows. On one of the plant tours I was told that the argon loss of around 4% per year occurred through the glass, not the sealant. Are you saying this was not correct information? I believe they were using a urethane sealant at that time.
Sort of....
I would suspect that the individual meant the term "glass" to refer to the IG unit and not specifically to the "glass" itself. As I mentioned in that long post, current technology aims at 1% per year and at the time that you visited Marvin 4% would not have been an inappropriate level of argon migration - again depending on the system. But there is no loss thru the actual "glass" itself.
Like most manufactured products, there are exceptions and 1% presupposes that the folks actually building the IG's are doing all the little things that ensure the best possible product.
"I would suspect that the individual meant the term "glass" to refer to the IG unit and not specifically to the "glass" itself."Actually, he said "...glass. not the seal..." It may well be that he was mis-informed. I think some of the tour guides and seminar leaders were not as informed about the topics they were discussing as they should have been. Probably chosen more for their ability to put words together than their knowledge.
Actually, that was my thought as well, but I was giving the tour guide the benefit of the doubt!
Thank you for chiming in. Very good information and quite entertaining, even for someone without a chem background.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Thanks. Reyesuela brought up some very good points (many of which were absolutely correct - and we are in agreement with those) so it has been a fun discussion.
I have tried to limit technical-speak (spelled "make it less-boring"), so hopefully even the more technical areas/comments still make sense!
Edited 2/21/2007 7:59 am ET by Oberon
Does anyone really care? Have we kiled this horse 27 times now or is that 28 times? And was horse dead after one or two killings?
These are questions people really want to have answers to.
And are we talking about a difference of .003 R or .004 R anyway?
Ok, carry on.
Does anyone really care? Have we kiled this horse 27 times now or is that 28 times? And was horse dead after one or two killings?
These are questions people really want to have answers to.
And are we talking about a difference of .003 R or .004 R anyway?
Ok, carry on.
DoRight,
I am not certain what you are referring to? A particular post or the entire discussion?
You are correct on one point. Argon does leak through the glass itself at a rate of about 4% per year. (That's 4% of whatever is in there at the start of the year.) But, why would this create negative pressure? Other gasses diffuse in. I would like to see any information you can produce which would suggest that Argon could diffuse out at a rate fast enough to create a pane collapsing vacuum within the window.
This is where things get INTERESTING! *g* (BTW, if Ar does diffuse through the glass, I HAVE to be right.)The physics answer is that Dalton's Law, Fick's Law, and Boyle's Law make an ugly combination for the window owner.Here's an explanation that fixes the this-makes-no-common-sense problem:You had biology in high school, right? Do you remember doing the experiment where you add lots of distilled water to cells that have electrolytes in them, and then lots of salt water to the same kind of cells?What happened in the second case it that the cells shriveled up as osmosis (which is closely related to diffusion) worked to try to make the concentration of salts (electrolytes) the same inside the cell as outside the cell. It raised the concentration inside the cell to be in equilibrium with the outside, most of the water left the cell. It didn't matter that the result was a big pressure difference, causing the cell to shrivel. What mattered was that the *concentrations* between the cell and surrounding water were now the same.Where it gets REALLY interesting is the first case. In this case, more and more water diffuses inside the cell because the concentration of eletrolytes is higher inside than outside. So pressure builds up...and builds up...and builds up until it actually *bursts.*In each case, the PRESSURE outside and inside the cell was itinitally identical. Differences in concentration, though, cause the fluids to try to create an equilibrium, even though the equilibrum of conentration would cause a difference in pressure.Now, the windows are different because the fluids trying to equalize are actually passing through the membrane--they aren't being dissolved in another substance. But the result--the "shriveling cell"--is the same. The reason the rate of Ar diffusing out versus the sum of the rates of N2/O2/CO2/etc diffusing in are SO different are because the difference in concentration bewteen Ar inside versus Ar outside is greater than that of any of the other gases. Each rate is seperately dependent upon the partial pressure difference across the glass, and the rates of diffusion are nonlinear, so just because the total pressure difference of N2/O2/CO2/etc must be the same as the total pressure difference of Ar across the glass, the sum of the rates is not the same. This is a little more convoluted, but think of it this way: You have one balloon filled with 144 cu. inches of air and four other balloons willed with 100, 40, and 4 cu. inches each. You let them all go at the *exact* same instant and then freeze them all after 2 seconds. Which would have lost the most air, the first one or the other three combined? Answer--the first one!Edited 2/19/2007 8:31 pm ET by ReyesuelaEdited 2/19/2007 8:31 pm ET by ReyesuelaEdited 2/19/2007 8:32 pm ET by Reyesuela
Edited 2/19/2007 11:56 pm ET by Reyesuela
I have never seen these problems on Marvin windows. Their Ingegrity brand is not as good. Over the years we have been using Marvin we have seen improvments in their quality. I don't know of any U.S. mfg. that makes a better wood window. The "cladding" on their windows is not bent and glued to the window. It is an extrusion, thicker material and not prone to denting It does not "wrap" the wood below, nor get it's strength from the wood on the inside of the window. I've mentioned this before, but no one seems to understand the difference. Further, just as every GM car is not the same, neither is every Marvin window. Many of the houses we work on have double hung windows, so the Marvin's Ultimate Double Hung is the window we use the most.Look into the Lowen windows. They are a quality product. I think you have another mfg. up there that makes a window that would be in the same category, but I'm not familiar enough with them to even know their mane.
If you have the budget, you can get Manitoba-made clad wood Loewens.....the best wood window I've seen, based on touring their plant.Cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, Nova Scotia.
Go to Marvin's web site and look at a section drawing. There is a space between the extrusion and the wood. No place for water to sit. Roll clad windows have wood directly behind the cladding. The only window I've seen that compares to the Marvins is Lowen. Lowen's are more expensive, Theyr'e a Canadian company.
Lowen windows are very good even if they're a little pricey. My mom's Marvin windows are a continuous problem in the winter with ice crystals coming out of many wood joints in the frame, sash. I would stay away from Marvin, even though this is a unique case.
looking into eagle right now for an upcoming project.have a sample in my hand. definitely is extruded.
Last one I saw the frames were extruded (as pretty much all are). Its the cladding on the sashes that is roll stock.
Ever hear about rotting clad windows? I heard that some have had trouble with water getting behind the clading and rotting the window.
What I've seen is a clad window "rotting from the inside out".
I think a likely explanation hinges on the fact that the cladding and the wood have different rates of thermal expansion and contraction. Due to this, the adhesive eventually fails, and condensation develops in the "blisters".
That does not sound good. Is that a recommendation against cladded wood windows?
That does not sound good. Is that a recommendation against cladded wood windows?
Of course, I have limited experience with cladded windows. But with that said, my experience has not been positive -- and I've heard the same thing from other contractors I know.
Generally speaking, I steer my clients towards all wood or all vinyl. The choice is often determined primarily by cosmetic concerns: for example, whether the interior trim will be stained and topcoated, or painted.
>>>Ever hear about rotting clad windows? I heard that some have had trouble with water getting behind the clading and rotting the window.
What I've seen is a clad window "rotting from the inside out".
I think a likely explanation hinges on the fact that the cladding and the wood have different rates of thermal expansion and contraction. Due to this, the adhesive eventually fails, and condensation develops in the "blisters".<<<
SOUNDS LIKE A MARVIN WINDOW TO ME!!
Yes, there have been many cases of this. Mostly in areas os severe tempeature differances between summer and winter.
Mine are clad 200 series.
Make sure you understand the installation proceedure for the Jeld Wens. If the windows are what was formerly Norco, The pan application ( and associated cost) is rediculous...okay windows, though<G> "But to be honest some folks here have been pushing the envelope quite a bit with their unnecessary use if swear words. They just put a character in to replace a letter. But everyone knows what they're saying." Sancho
1. What pan application problems are you talking about, specifically? I'm looking at having Jeld Wyn windows installed in our new home.
2. I have also priced Marvin and Pella and I have closely examined all three brands in residential construction projects. All seem to be good products. The kicker is comparing like product lines for the different companies. In my area of TN, the higher lines of Marvin windows are significantly more expensive than custom or higher lines of Pella and Jeld Wyn windows. The point being I can not see a structural or aesthetic reason for the cost.
However, I am very new window shopping so if someone feels the need to set me straight, feel free to do so.
Thanks, Stan
Hey Stan, I'm talking about Norcos. Jeld Wen bought them and lost the Norco name...they're maybe Premium or Custom Wood now. The installation instuctions call for a specific sill pan system, plus corner "things" at the heads. These are windows with nailing fins... We have to save copies of all install instructions, and put them in the permit box. Inspectors here check that stuff...we're not putting in any more Norcos<S>
"But to be honest some folks here have been pushing the envelope quite a bit with their unnecessary use if swear words. They just put a character in to replace a letter. But everyone knows what they're saying." Sancho
Pella sashes have the roll stock cladding, Marvin extruded. Marvin's come ready to install. I can't tell you how many times I've had to put stuff together with Pella. If you're using casements, you will have to take a bunch of screws out (at least one is difficult to get to) if you need to take shashes out to make the units lighter for installaton or for moving materials. I don't have any experience with Jen Weld windows.
When I talk about Marvin's I'm talking about the high end Marvin branded, not the Integrity line. Their Integrity line is their "builder line" made to compete with the other companies that sell windows to big home builders.
There are many resons for the cost difference between Marvin and others. One is the finish, it will last for many, many years w/o fading. A thicker alum. extrusion. Tighter tolerances in manufacturing i.e. reveals are smaller. Warranty is outstanding. And so on. You get what you pay for.
Someone posted something about Jeld Wen windows here saying he had used them and was not satisfied with the quality. In general, you get what you pay for.
"In general, you get what you pay for." Unless you buy Pella products. Then, you do not get what you pay for. Poor quality, high price. They may be "viewed to be the best" but installed, not even in the top 5.
I can't disagree. Pella has not kept up the quality and inovation they built their name upon.
Would never but anything JeldWen. I worked for a company that was bought out by them and all they did was run it down until they realized they were stupid and did not know anything about that business. They took a good company that had been in business for about 80 years and began to sell poor quality material until they ran the customers off. They wanted us to hire temporary help to save a buck. The end result was that they sold most of the company to someone else who brought the company back and a large portion of the employees came back.
Thanks for clarifying. I believe I'm right in saying that they spent more in fixing the seal failure problems than they recieved in the settlement.
I don't think any of their competitors did anythng for their customers. They all pocketed the money.
Marvin doesn't make the glass.... Their glass supplier incurred the cost.
Right. Comes down to the fine print. Who is doing what. Unfortunately most HO just see the window sticker price
Most windowcompanies offer a 5 year warranty on the glass (mainly seal). Very few have a 10 year warranty. The one with the higher warranty also are the most expensive. (a friend of mine who was in the windowbusiness said they sometimes add their glass net cost replacement to the initial windowcosts and then call it highperformance windows, European design, etc to justify the higher cost).
You have to compare apples to apples when it comes to windows. Woodwindows: which material is used? Clear edgegrain fir, pine, white mahagony? Are they sliding windows, awning, casement, double hung, is the hardware plastic, metal, single locking, multilocking, preprimed, unfinished, cased, clad
Vinyl: not all vinyl is equal quality, check what the manufacturer is using. He should clearly specify the composition of vinyl used,
Glazing: type, assuming all are double glazed now, what kind of seal, rubber, metal, vinyl, square seal, squiggle seal, air space, e-glass, tinted, argongas filled, fancy inserts
Delivery: Factory finish with lots of goo, sealing compound exposed, wrapped weatherproof, clean, delivered into the house or dropped of at curb.
Good morning,
Good general information in your post, but warranty information is a bit dated. Currently, virtually all of the larger window companies offer at least a 20 year glass and 10 year frame and component warranty.
Personally, I would not even consider a window with anything less than a 20/10 warranty. Five year warranty in todays market essentially means that the window has no warranty at all.
You lucky American devils!!
Ah! I didn't catch it - when you said "e-glass" I should have noticed. Not sure where you are, but the term "e-glass" is used a good bit in Britain.
Most windowcompanies offer a 5 year warranty on the glass (mainly seal). Very few have a 10 year warranty...
I've read a few articles which stated a homeowner just has to consider replacing double-insulate glass units as a maintenance cost due to the fact that they will generally fail after 10 years or so.
A comforting thought.
The better companies offer at least a 20 year warranty on the IGU.
Current technology levels and failure analysis (with the better units) are suggesting failure rates of IGU's at well under 1% at 20 years - and the actual number of failures appears to be heading downward from that.
Which is a heck of a lot more comforting than considering replacing at 10 years - no doubt about that!
Oberon,
That's good to hear that the IGUs are performing much better now in terms of longevity. However, the local manufacturers where I live are still quoting in the 10-year range. Hopefully it won't be too long before the better technology becomes commonplace.
On the subject, I've had *terrible* experiences trying to replace an IGU in a modern sash. It can be nearly impossible to remove the IGU without destroying the sash itself. Unfortunately, on many of the windows I've seen, there seems to have been a shift in design philosophy regarding sash construction. It used to be that the sash was structurally sound by itself, and that the sash safely contained the fragile glass. Nowadays, with the sash and joinery being so flimsy, it seems as if the designers think that the IGU will lend strength to the sash -- almost as if the sash is nothing more than an edge treatment for the glass.
You seem to be quite familiar with a lot of the modern sash companies. Do you know any that employ mortise and tenon joinery?
Ragnar,
That is a great question, and unfortunately one that I don't know enough to give a good answer too.
While I believe that several of the larger custom wood companies that have restoration lines can use traditional mortise and tenon joinery - and there are smaller companies who specialize in either ultra-high-end or restoration that use traditional wood joints as well - my area of knowledge is primarily performance and certification related and unfortunately (other than having an opportunity to admire some really nice products now and then), I have never really been involved in the type of joints the various window companies use.
Now you have me curious as well.....
As for changing out an IGU, depending on who's sash it is, I totally agree! Sometimes it is simply easier to change the entire sash rather than trying to get the IGU out without undue damage to the sash. Some companies aren't too bad to get the IGU out - but there are others.....
And you made a great observation as well - there are some sash/frame window systems in which the IGU is very much an integrated structural element in the overall sash design and construction.
My thoughts. If the manufacturers costs are minimal they will show how good they are by working with you. If the costs are substantial lawyers will usually fight over the fine print. Same as insurance companies. Just look what is happening with automakers's 10years/100 k miles warranties.
Correction, at that point in time, Marvin made 90% of their own glass
in house. I have been to the plant on two (2) occasions. Cardinal glass now provides them with a lot of the glass they can not make due to production demands. They even have a glass plant "piggy backed" to the Integrity plant to provide customers with 10 day lead times.
Being in that 90% is a good thing... being in the 10% can leave an expensive bad taste.
I'm currently doing leakrepair for a 15 year old skylight that was determined defective. The manufacturer is paying me.... the customer loves their original choice of window manufacturers. Who wouldn't want their 200 square foot mater bath repainted ..... for free?
Whether it is 10 or 40%... it does not matter. The warranty is published by the wdw mfg and they do not differentiate between their own glass or that which they subbed out..... If the product has the manufacturers name on it, they honor the warranty.
Winstall, hate to break the news to you.... but you are 100% wrong. I have a customer with thousands of dollars tied up in KML windows that were made before Andersen bought them. KML did custom work for many companies that put their name on the product yet now refuse to service it.
Sorry to burst your bubble...
I have never had an issue with service as it relates to the terms of the warranty. There are a lot of misconceptions. The length of glass warranty does not extend to the entire window unit. I even received compensation from HUTTIG in Missouri for a customer 5 years after they stopped making there windows!!! K.M.L. only warranted I.G. panels for ten years as a result of seal failure. One year on everything else. For me, that is not much of a warranty. They do not warrant ig units larger than 65 sf. The finish basically has no warranty from the time it leaves the factory. The wording of warranties is slanted to the manufacturer in almost every case. I suspect, without knowing all the specifics, that your customers problems are related to a "non warranted" issue that they seem to think should be covered.
Of course I did not want to say you should not buy windows because they offer a warranty.
Just don't rely on it or make it THE determining factor
There are too many companies that went out of business who were in business for decades. (Eaton's, Woodward's). All had excellent reputation.
Just look what is happening in the roofing business with their 50 year warranty.
You seriously think you can collect on a warranty that was issued in 1957? Even if they still exist companies will read you the fine print or charge you so much for labor and "other" costs that it will be cheaper to replace the part with an alternative product.
You might get better results from you homeowner insurance.
Comparing roof warranties to windows is a stretch. I can fill a house with 40 grand in windows and cover the roof for a fraction of that price. Predicting who is going out of business is probably a waste of time when selecting windows....
So I'd suggest to the OP before deciding ask a lot of questions and read everything, windows are expensive and replacing them while you are still paying for them on the mortgage sucks. One mfg that many here rave about has some fine print that left a customer of mine with 8 year old windows you can't see out of.... the replacement cost of a windows is over 10 grand, something he wasn't budgeting for... since he will be paying for them for the next 22 years while they reside at the dump.
I am a field sevice tech for Marvin Windows and Dooors. I can attest to the fact that Marvin still has the stongest warranty in the business. No prorating at all. 19 year seal failure.....full replacement. No other manufacturer that I am aware of (Andersen, Pella) has factory trained reps to take care of warranty issues.
I'll bet you are like Maytag repairman.... Marvin quality is in a class all by itself..... I have sold them for 18 1/2 yrs.... Love em.... keep up the good work...
Thank you! But all companies have issues. 90% of what I do is small stuff like tilt pins, balance tubes, and ohh yeah the dreaded install issues.
I just installed my second house of Integrity doors. Sliders, double French, and single French The latches in the first house, installed late last summer, have to be forced past the strikes in order to lock. If not forced, they just bounce off the strikes.The latest batch, installed last week, doesn't have this problem, just push the door, latch retracts when it hits the strike, and latches by itself, nice.Is this one of the new improvements you're talking about? If it is, is there a retrofit for the old doors?The threshold weatherstripping has also presented a few issues. A house I trimmed out two summers ago had all the weather strip bulbs fall out of the thresholds...I never found out the resolution to that.The house with the sticky latches has a threshold strip that has been torn during construction. Double French outswing. Is there a fix?The last house has a torn bulb in one of the sliders. We noticed it when we first opened up the door. Again, what's the fix?And, one last question: the first house has a Marvin clad entry unit w/ 2 sidelites. There are no interior mullions between the door panel and the sidelites. There's a substantial gap (1/4") between the tops, bottoms, and one side of each sidelite and the frame. How does that normally get trimmed?Thanks "But to be honest some folks here have been pushing the envelope quite a bit with their unnecessary use if swear words. They just put a character in to replace a letter. But everyone knows what they're saying." Sancho
All of the weatherstrip on all Marvin products can be changed. Most of the doors use that same sill w/s between Marvin/Integrity. This is easy to change. Call your dealer to get this fixed. It sounds like a warranty issue and should be done for you. As far as the Integrity inswing door latches, on some of the strikes, the part that retracts and slides on the strike plate, there is a small burr in the steel at the very tip. I have had to file that a bit to get rid of it. After that it should close fine. As far as the mullions on the entry, I'm not quite sure I understand the problem. Are the heights of the sidelights different from the door? If that is the case, it was ordered wrong.
I'll try the tip on the latch today, and I'll post a pic of the door.Thanks "But to be honest some folks here have been pushing the envelope quite a bit with their unnecessary use if swear words. They just put a character in to replace a letter. But everyone knows what they're saying." Sancho
Just to add my two cents, I placed an order last week for 11 windows and one double French patio door from Gorell Products. Nine windows are double hung, one is a picture window, and one is a slider. All have tilt sashes, including the glider. These are all vinyl with low-E Armor Glass.
Did a lot of research before making the purchase. Had never even heard of Gorell before. Compared specs, warranties, and actual samples with several other brands including Andersen (which I almost bought). Got a lot of opinions from a lot of people including many on this forum and others. No clear consensus to be found. Considered all the pros and cons, bought the Gorells. Appears to be a good product. Expected to arrive in 2-3 weeks.
Good choice? Bad choice? We'll see.New knowledge is priceless.
Used knowledge is even more valuable.
mike.. probably a good choice for you
a bad choice for the guy who has to work on the house in 15 years.. where will gorrell be then ?
which is why i stick with the majors, like Andersen
of course i could start to wind down now.. not sure if i'll still be doing this in 15 yearsMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
"a bad choice for the guy who has to work on the house in 15 years.. where will gorrell be then ?"
Andersen wasn't always an "old" company. They wouldn't be where they are now if people hadn't taken a chance on their products.New knowledge is priceless.
Used knowledge is even more valuable.
mike.. like i said... good choice for you..
but i seriously doubt they'll be around in 15 years.. i base that on 30 years of buying and installing windows and the consolidation i've witnessed in the industry
try getting a part for a 15 year-old Weathershield...
now try getting a part for a 15 year-old Andersen.... there is a differenceMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
"... there is a difference"How right you are. The distributor can make all the difference. Where I am Marvin is the distributor, they handle all the warranty stuff. Marvin dealers in other parts of the country say Marvin spoils us with their service.
Mongo, thanks filing the latches did the trick. Here's some pics of the door in question. There's approximately 1/4" gap between the side lite and the frame. The frame is not partioned into three sections, like most doors w/ dbl sidelites. The gaps have got to be trimmed with something. Normally a sidelite gets picture framed, but that's going to look a little weird here, especially on the hinge edge of the door...I'm curious how you've seen these doors trimmed out. "But to be honest some folks here have been pushing the envelope quite a bit with their unnecessary use if swear words. They just put a character in to replace a letter. But everyone knows what they're saying." Sancho
What you have os a OXO Inswing French Door. This looks like a single door w/ sidelites but in fact it is 2 inoperable door panels and 1 active door. It would be trimmed out as a single unit along the scribe lines I see in the pics. If the cust wanted the separate sidelite look than it should have been ordered as a O mulled with an X and mulled with an O. This way you would have had 3 frames to trim out. Ok?
Ordered as an XXX how would it look?
No such animal as far as I know. I know Marvin is coming out with an exterior bifold door. I guess that is how a XXX would look. A bifold on one side and a single hinge on the other.
Glad I didn't do the ordering<G> It will be interesting to see how the HOs take the three door look!Thanks for your insight. "But to be honest some folks here have been pushing the envelope quite a bit with their unnecessary use if swear words. They just put a character in to replace a letter. But everyone knows what they're saying." Sancho
"I am a field sevice tech for Marvin Windows and Dooors. I can attest to the fact that Marvin still has the stongest warranty in the business. No prorating at all. 19 year seal failure.....full replacement. No other manufacturer that I am aware of (Andersen, Pella) has factory trained reps to take care of warranty issues."
You should get out more... this was covered at least 50 posts ago.
I have a customer with Marvins less then 10 years old that would love to talk to you.
Bring 'em on.... Sorry for posting so late in the game (50 posts ago) I just logged on last night for the first time.
Edited 2/20/2007 11:27 pm ET by Mongo1
Do you work within the area where Marvin is the distributor or for a distributor in another area?
No prorating at all. 19 year seal failure.....full replacement
Just out of curiosity, Mongo, what exactly does "full replacement" mean? Does Marvin replace the entire window unit, the window sash, or just the insulated glass unit?
Does the warranty cover materials only, or does the warranty include LABOR, too?
As one who has called Marvin to address problems in the past, here is my experience. Usually they replace the sash. (I think Marvin has come to the conclusion that it is more cost effective in the long run to replace the whole sash rather than just the glazing.) The service techs bring out a new sash and install it. It is the job of the HO (or contractor) foot the bill for any painting or staining.
Woodroe,
Usually they replace the sash. (I think Marvin has come to the conclusion that it is more cost effective in the long run to replace the whole sash rather than just the glazing.)
Yes, it does seem to be more cost-effective to replace the entire sash -- it can be a real PITA to get an IGU out without destroying the sash.
Thanks for the response -- it's good to hear about real world experiences with different manufacturers.
So you are saying that if there is any damage caused when the correction is done the HO has to suck it up? Shouldn't there have been no problems, therefore, no reason for painting or staining? If there's a problem shouldn't the room be back to proper install status?
"So you are saying that if there is any damage caused when the correction is done the HO has to suck it up?" I'm not sure what you mean by damage. What I said was that they do not paint your windows. I have never heard of anyone in the industry who does.
Labor is covered by Marvin for the first year and the distributor extends it for another year beyond. The finishing is the responsibility of the homeowner. If it is a seal failure in a sash (DH, Casement, Awning, Picture unit) the entire sash gets replaced. If it is a direct glazed picture unit, the glass only gets replaced. All are easy enough to do. Usually under a half an hor, most in just a few minutes.
Thanks for the reply, Mongo.
So since labor is covered for the first year (or two), does Marvin typically send out a rep to do the work? In year three and beyond, would Marvin still offer to do the work, only for a fee, of course? I know you said it only takes a half hour or so to do this type of work. What would the bill be to the homeowner in such an instance (assuming that the work was done outside the warranty period)?
Thanks again for your input.
In response to the question about after 2 years. Typically it is up to the "department" that handles the warranties in that area. In my area we would usually handle it up to 10 years. Depending on the product failure. Sometimes the distributor is not equipped to replace the product. For example, a 8' X 8' casement sash 35 feet in the air overhanging a cliff. The distributor probably would not be too inclined to take that on. As I am sure the builder wasn't at the time either. The long and the short of it is that it is decided upon a case by case basis. I would call the dealer or distributor for each case. They might surprise you. They tend to be a little loose with the particulars of the warranty.
I would love to see someone change "most" glass in a "few" minutes !!!! It takes that long to open up the tool box and get the tools out. How does this work? I am allways looking for an easier faster way to do the job.
"Most in minutes" refers to sash swap out. DH sash need no tools and casements just need a small prybar or a strong hand. If it is a direct glazed unit, I could change out the glass in under an hour in most cases.
The warranty specifically states that at their (MARVIN) option, they will repair or replace the defective material. In almost every case I have been involved with, they will give you the sash or the glass. If the unit is clad, the sash is the best way to go. If the unit is primed wood, it is less headache for the homeowner to replace the glass. They will not under any conditions cover the labor. The local distributor may choose to provide that service to maintain good will with the customer. It is not covered under the warranty. Marvin maintains service crews that cover the entire country. They usually do not get involved unless it is a complex problem or the dealer who sold the product is not a "world class" dealer. WC dealers have in house people who have been to the factory and have the training to handle most situations. Hope this helps, feel free to contact me if youneed further info. I have sold Marvin for almost 20 yrs and feel it is the best window/ door out their.
Heard about a company called Continental Windows here in Chicago and was wondering how your casement windows compare the theirs. They make their windows from virgin vinyl in the factory here in Chicago and was wondering if you or anyone has had experience with this company and how it measures against Marvin products.
I have old double hung windows that I want to replace with casement and of course I want the best for the best value. And I dont want to have to do this again for a very long time.
I have never heard of the company in Chicago.
Can't comment on your Chicago company, but anecdotally I love our Marvin casements. Had them for over 5 years and they are great - wish I could do the whole house with them (this was an addition).
mongo... all Andersen Circle of Excellence dealers have factory trained reps on staff
i can get one to my job in about one day's notce
and i've been using Andersen for 35 years.. alsong with many other mfrs, including Marvin
marvin is agreat window.. but i prefer Andersen... and i prefer their warranty service... they've always had my back
Marvin really screwed the pooch with me in the early '80's when they had PPG treating their casing and sill stock... every Marvin i installed in those years rotted..
Andersen has come back on some of my jobs and replaced sliding units more than 20 years old....
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike, does Andersen actually install thier replacements or do they expect you to do it or charge you?
Andersen doesn't do it .... the dealer does it.. actually the factory-trained in-house guy does it
last one was last week,we couldn't get a mulled-dh unit to close with even margins..you know how it is with a mulled unit.. you can have the one on the left... or you can have the one on the right.. but if you want both.. hah.. they'd best have been assembled right to begin with
anyways....
the rep came out , took the unit out, disassembled it.. put it back todether , re-installed it .. worked fine
some dude assembled it wrong in the window shop... i think most of the big mfr's have consolidated their distribution.... in order to be a Circle of Excellence dealer, they have to have an assembly shop , and the factory trained personnel
i used to be able to get Marvin or Andersen from my yard.. then Marvin consolidated and all the Marvin units come out of a Marvin store ..
Andersen is still available from multi-sources... but i have no problems if i stick with my dealer.. buying from HD is another story
kind of like buying Pella's from Lowes...
who knew ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I stand corrected. I am happy that you are satisfied with Andersen. I have never been impressed with their products. And a lot has changed with windows in 30 years.
Obviously , the first choice is wood, vinyl, or aluminum,Your local weather could pretty much help make you decision there.Check the NFRC ratings. If you live in an extreme environment you may want to go into further detail with triple glazing,argon,tinting, and glass thickness. Glass thickness will also help with sound problems. After that, look into reputation and fulfillment of warranties. If they are an out of state manufacturer , do they have local reps for factory defect repair, etc? Basically how long to make problems go away. I hate when dealing with manufacturers or anyone for that matter that makes their problems my problems. Look into written warranties , but I would stick to the proven companies..........Hope this helps
Google NFRC
Installing windows is my main gig. My main concern is warranty and an efficient service dept to back it up. There are a lot of window brands and their service can vary quite a bit regionally.
Buying from a dealer that has a good, long standing relationship with the manufacturer is a good idea.
I have been satisfied with Andersen, Marvin, and Certainteed. These companies put an emphasis on service. I can usually get parts for Andersen and Marvin windows that are thirty years old.
Milguard is another big player in my locale and I think their warranty service is the best of them all but I havent been satisfied with the quality of their windows.
Tom