I’m having a disagreement with the designer of our new home. The house is hip and single story with a 9′ plateline all around, and he insists that the window heights should all be at the same height as the front door, 7′. It seems to me that with the higher plate heighth, the windows should be slightly higher too. Otherwise there will be a 2′ wall above every window and it seems like it will make the rooms look out of proportion.
Heck, I don’t know, I’ve never done this before. Anyone out there know whether we should be putting all the windows at the same height as the front door on a house with 9′ ceilings?
Thanks all.
Replies
Customary vs. customer preference. Same height is very common. If you want something different, there isn't any law saying where your windows on your house should be. The additional space you mention would also be common. The only thing that comes to mind immediately about a down side of not taking your designers idea is if, IF your perspective ends up looking odd to others (which could be this persons motivation with your particular plan), it could hurt when you sell. But at the same time, think of all the floor to ceiling windows you've seen, as well as palladian tops. Draw it, or have the designer draw to scale what your preference and his/hers would look like, both from an interior and exterior view. Take a look at things before it gets built, make a call, and stick to it.
It's your job to get the house you want. It's the designer/architect's job to not only ensure that you get what you want...but that you want what you get.
Part of the "want what you get" means that while you think something may look nice, the desinger might know that its been tried before, it didn't work, and to execute it again would be a huge mistake. You may get it, but after living in the house and realizing that the idea was a mistake, in the end did you really want it?
So, before you demand the "unconventional", it may be a nice idea to try to see existing construction built in a similar scale. Parade of Homes? Weekend Open Houses? I have no idea...
In this case, what you're asking for is not out of the ordinary. In my own house the first floor has 9' 8 1/2" ceilings. The window tops are 7' 4" off the floor. The sill is at about 20". It works for me. Also, I'm 6'4" tall, so I prefer more glazing at eye level vs looking at the top sash. My wife is 5'1"...so we had to work to cover the entire spectrum.<g> for added info, the front door is a 6'8" unit, and the front of the house looks fine. Though, I have to say, in the spring I'm adding a vestibule to the front of my house and will be replacing the 6'8" unit with a 7'0" door.
If you really want to raise the window up high you need to scale the size of the window to not just the interior room, but also make sure the exterior desn't look silly. Think window height vs soffit...think solar gain and how far it will reach into the room...think sitting in a chair and how the sill height will affect your view through the window.
Though I haven't seen the prints of your house, your idea of windows tops higher than the top of the door makes sense, and to me is not just aesthetically acceptable, but an enhancement.
You designer seems to be bound by standards and rules without any creative imagination.
There are very good reasons for this standard in homes with eight foot walls and 6'8" doors.
But you have already torn pages out of the rule book.
You could also go back to a 6'8" door and put a transome or elipse over it. Now you are up to about eight feet with that openning. Raise your windows up there and you still want the sills low enough so you are now flooding the rooms with light. Your drapery will be correspondingly larger and more expensive as well. Maybe your designer has a better feel for your budget than we do.
Shorter windows can look good in a nine foot ceiling too, depending on lots of variables but keeping them down because of some 'rule' doesn't sound like good design work to me.
Maybe he's got an ego or a mental block against using an erasure. Thjat's one of the advantages of CAD - also you can do renderings to simulate light flow.
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit. The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are." --Marcus Aurelius
Thanks, I'm going to have to look at it closer. Thinking about it, I think the real reason I am so concerned about this designer's advice is not that he is inexperienced or incompetent. Unfortunately, it is that I just don't trust the guy and we are so far into the project that I can't afford to fire him. he just wants everything in our house to be his way and hasn't asked the minimum of questions to find out what it is that we are looking for.
For example, I wanted a transom window above the front entry door for a little ventilation and light into a planter. He balked and balked, said things like "why would you want a window up so high where you cannot see into it. Do you have giants coming into your house". He whined so much that now the transom is just a fixed awning window much smaller...He wanted to put a glulam across our front porch, hanging 18" below the soffit and completely blocking the awning windows. Of course what glulam running through the middle of your front porch would be happy without a couple of steel columns, smack in the middle of the porch...he hollered like a stuck pig when I mentioned LVL's, and finally settled with a drag truss completely spanning the entry (its not that large) and buried in the soffit...there are numerous other details that I've had to battle him about that really had no place on our plan, but were left over from some another cad file he used as a seed.
Now when he starts laying down the law about window heights, I guess I'm just as skeptical as one could be. And it pisses me off to be that way.
Thanks again.
Oh how I love to give attitude adjustments to people like that!
But from here, I can't reach out and slap him.
What you said touches one of my over-riding rules for relationships. Without trust, there is no relationship.
.
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit. The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are." --Marcus Aurelius
Well, the designer is an idiot!!! He/she is not listening to your concerns. It is not a house he is goint to live in, you are. It should be taylored to your needs, likes, and dislikes. He needs to work with you, not butt heads.
If you want bigger windows - more light in the rooms, he/she should design with that in mind. There are numerous ways of handling an elevation with the top of door on one height and the top of windows on another. The addition of horizontal mullions, or transom lights as was mentioned are but a few. Don't just raise the windows in their entirety, be sure the sill is also at the height you want; particularly in bedrooms. Local codes require a certain height. I have not done residential work in a while so the height escapes me, (42" max?).
Good luck with this guy; remember it is your money he is spending.
Edit: Is your designer an architect, does he have construction experience? What is his background? Seems like all these decisions should have been made in the drawing process, not the building process. Where there any drawings done? Sounds like the design is happening during the construction process, which is very inefficient and costly.
Marcello
Edited 11/6/2002 2:32:06 PM ET by TMARCELLO
There are areas of this country where 'designers' are drafting up plans that are just sufficient to get a building permit and confuse a framer for as little as .25/SqFt
I'm betting that is what this guy is doing. He uses imported and redone of previous jobs so it is really not designing. .
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit. The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are." --Marcus Aurelius
Yes, I am aware of that. If .25/sf is the case the owner should not let such a guy dictate where money is going to get spent or how he should spend it. I think FKERN12 should fire the guy, how many more head aches is it worth to go thru especially when he is getting a house/addition that is not quite to his likening? I am curious to know the process that whent thru in the hiring of the 'designer' and the process the decisions were made prior to construction. A good builder would be worth 10x more than this designer. Sorry, but I get a little hot under the collar when people assume roles they are not qualified to do - this comment is based on a one sided story, I would also be curious to know what the designer has to say on the process. Not too much I gather.
> Local codes require a certain height. I have not done residential work in a while so the height escapes me, (42" max?).
Correct, 42" max for bedroom window sills. It's to allow the fire department to enter and save you without breaking a leg. Here in LA, all windows with sills under 42" are required to have some sort of railing to bring the altitude you must achieve in order to fall out up to 42". So we get 42" max one place and 42" min in another, and as a result, sills are at 42".
As to height, your climate should be considered. Old houses in New Orleans, for instance, have high ceilings and very high windows, and transoms over the doors. They also use casement windows, which give you more open space, and are more likely to remain operable in the long term.
-- J.S.
I have driven thru St. Charles Street in the Garden District, beautifull windows, tall doors.
My personal preference, for what it is worth, has always been for the tops of windows to be as close to the ceiling height as practical. When this is combined with a good double hung window you can effectively vent all the hot air from the ceiling and allow cooler air in through the open bottom sash. This can go a long way toward limiting the AC needed and once installed it is free.
Along these lines single hung windows with lots of dead air space above the operable portion, a common design, gives you a window that does next to nothing even when open. This forces you to use AC even when ventilation would otherwise work well.
The other thing I go for is window sills being higher than normal. I like sills to be about 30" AFF so I don't flash the neighborhood. The ability to shag around with minimum coverage also keeps the AC off a little longer. Combined with a whole house fan, ceiling fans, wide overhangs and tall glasses of ice tea and yes you can live in Florida without AC. I have it but don't use it much if I can help it.
Good point about the top ventilation! A lot of single hungs have become common just because AC is assumed with no attempt to actually use windows, ecept to throw the cat out of.
But if you can shag around nude with no-one seeing your pivates above a 30" sill, you're a lot shorter than you look! LOL Yuck yuck!
I try hard to keep the sill down to about 21" or so to let people enjoy their views that they paid for. Viewing from in to out - not out to in, of course.
.
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit. The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are." --Marcus Aurelius
Nice photo there Piffin. Where is that? A view like that might motivate me to flash the neighbors a bit more. It might even motivate me to drag my carcass out of bed on those cold, below 60F, mornings.
Yea. Mistaken on the measurements. Should have read 36". Maybe a bit higher if I'm errr....really happy to see you.
Edited for spelling.
Edited 11/6/2002 6:37:46 PM ET by 4LORN1
If you're ever that happy to see me, we've both got a problem.
I'll just enjoy the view from out here on the cold porch, thank you.
;o)
It's one of my favorite vbiews of the east bay from here. I drive past there every morning and yes, it is a morning shot.
Here, watch the sun come up...
#52 demonstrates how a low sill height lets a seated person can enjoy not having his view blocked.
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit. The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are." --Marcus Aurelius
Edited 11/6/2002 7:11:37 PM ET by piffin
Piff
Im guessing that those walls in yer house have some sorta foam insulation behind them being its a bit chilly where you are. Am I mistaken?
As for 60 degs being cold..or even 50 degs.? What babies...thats perfect weather if you ask me....specially on a Sunny day. Throw another log in the stove then babies......lol
Be well sunshine......lol
NAmaste'
AndyIt's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Solid Cedar, in and out.
R- value 1.3/inch at 7" actual gives R-9 plus thermal mass. No drafts. I heat 2500 Sq Ft for about $600/year. .
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit. The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are." --Marcus Aurelius
24538.20 in reply to 24538.19
Solid Cedar, in and out. R- value 1.3/inch at 7" actual gives R-9 plus thermal mass>>>>
Piff......would you be kind enough to reiterate. So theres no insul? Whats 7"? Sounds like a threadin itself.....Sorry to not have picked up your explanation. I kinda understood Cloud Hiddens construction easier...LOL
Be well bro
NAmaste
AndyIt's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
I've got log walls made of cedar logs shaped in the D style with a double t&g joint. These cedar logs are a nominal 8" log which approach 7-3/4" thick in the greatest thickness. Average thicknes of the wall is 7". The log is the insulation. Cedar, in addition to being a beautifull wood, and rot resistant, has a low density and higher R value than most other American grown wood which will average about R-1 per inch.
Are we off topic yet?.
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit. The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are." --Marcus Aurelius
Piff
Yeh.we all usually all get off topic but still remain informative to someone somewhere down the line.
OK..gotcha..I spose I never caughtthat your house was a log one. That alone says it all. I rechinked and rebuilt an 1870 log cabin in Virginia many moons ago and lived in it about one year so with that alone I do know the insulating factor.
Question though.......with the beauty of the logs whydga decide to side the inside? Insulating factor? Are there any areas in yer home where you see the logs? Did you build it or renovate it? And how bout some more pictures.
aIt's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Ain't gonna crank up the camera tonite.
Here's what we're talking about. There's no extra inside siding. The V-groove interior finish is part of the log..
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit. The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are." --Marcus Aurelius
Sometimes a bit higher than this chart shows as we have been running high the last 10 years or so. Also notice the dew points. This I handle, largely, without using AC. When I turn on the AC, usually around August as I get a bit frayed in late summer, it stays set at 80.
During the four miserable cold months I never quite feel warm. Seems the cold get in my bones and stays until baked out in March or April. I have been known to take a short nap in a 120 degree attic just because it felt warm.
Month
Average high
Average low
Warmest ever
Coldest ever
Average dew point
Average precipitation
JAN.
66
43
83
10
47
3.7
FEB.
68
45
87
18
49
4.0
MARCH
74
50
90
28
53
3.9
APRIL
81
56
95
35
56
2.3
MAY
86
63
98
42
63
3.3
JUNE
89
69
102
50
70
6.9
JULY
90
71
99
62
73
6.5
AUG.
90
71
99
62
73
7.7
SEPT.
87
69
97
48
70
5.1
OCT.
81
60
92
33
63
2.8
NOV.
74
51
88
28
57
2.2
DEC.
68
44
85
13
49
2.6
Strength or disability. I consistently carry a flannel shirt in the truck for movie theaters, doctors offices and shopping malls. But this is Florida. I can't abide people who move south and then insist on manufacturing artificial Yankee atmosphere, meat hanging temperatures. About as silly as me moving up north and keeping the heat set at my favorite temp of 80F. If you like temps in the 50s stay up north.
People should, IMHO, reside where the average temperatures are close to what they like without conditioning. Houses, in this case windows, should be designed to extend the comfort of the HO by passive means. A well designed double hung window, top as close to ceiling as possible and both top and botton open, can by itself create a noticable breeze that makes 80 degrees F quite comfortable to any person adapted to this environment.
Great advice, one more silly concern is if the windows open out you need to make sure the window doesn't interact with the overhang of the eaves. Buddy built one in Jackson Hole and had to drop all of the windows 6" after they were installed. Seems the windows didn't have enough clearance to open after the soffit was installed.
imho...
follow the suggestions of others here and keep your windows at door height and place an ellipse or transom window above your planned windows. adds architectural interest (eye candy). more conventional. adds proportion that you're looking for.
try to keep everything simple. not personal. comunicate, communicate, communicate
brian
Why not just install a taller (and wider) door. I personally think that it makes the entry feel more imposing. In a good way. Then you could raise the windows to the doors new height and still maintain the perspective that the designer thinks is so critical.
FK
First of al as long as youre meeting codes which in my neck of the woods is to have the windows a ceratin height off the floor for fire codes then its up to you. Its what your family envisions for your visual comfort. The designer sounds to be in a tunnel vision mode of what things are "supposed to be". Tell him or her to lighten up. One question I have is...why'd you hire a designer? Do you have an architect? Mostly and besides that.....no designer or arch should interfere in your visual comfort levels. Course unless you just wanna be told what to do which obviously you don't. There are no good reasons that I know of for keeping door and window heights the same heights other then being anal. One consideration that always has concerned me in home construction is how the windows look from outside AS WELL as inside. Seems to me a whole lot of archs don't seem to care about that so that when you look at the house outside the windows are all over the place. I've seen windows from outside that absolutly look insane. Thing is though...its what you want.....if window placement from the exterior doesnt matter all that much to you then so be it. Its your dollar. Dont let anyone push you around. Get explanations and considerations. Do what is the most pleasant to your families eye....Kinda Feung Suai (sp?) which is for sure a real thing to look into. The placement of the energies of the things in your home and where theyre placed. Hmmmmmm another thread I might start.
Be well
Namaste'
Andy
It's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Edited 11/6/2002 6:26:55 PM ET by Andy Clifford(Andybuildz)
If you feel that you want to go higher with the windows (not implying here, it's your call), you could go w/ a 6-8 entry door w/ a transom to make up the difference, then there you are at the same height all around.
I like the transom idea.
In case someone here hasn't mentioned it already, you should consider how you are going to trim the exterior of the house when setting the elevation of the heads and sills of the windows. Lots of the old houses I work on have a continuous ribbon of trim that acts as a common head casing for all windows and doors on a given level.
I'm 6'2" and an astronomer, so when I designed my house, I wanted to be able to look out and see the sky without having to bend over. I'm SO sick of that. So my window's reach up to about 8'5" in my 10' rooms downstairs. I sized the sill height by measuring my youngest daughters eyeballs from the ground...and picked the corresponding windows....66" I recall in height.
When you're in the place, everything looks normal...then you go stand next to a window and it towers over your head. I love it...the scale is just right to look great, yet things are all pretty oversized and massive.
Obviously it is your house...do it your way. Nothing worse then having heartaches with your builder/designer when you are building YOUR house. My hired helper is no longer my hired helper for this reason...I expected too much apparently. 1. Expected him to work. 2. Expected him to do what I asked. 3. Expected to receive a receipt for hours paid! LOL You get what you pay for...last time I try to help out a "friend" in need. Can't believe he ran my truck out of gas and slept in the cab as I walked to get the gas can...can't believe he put up the sheetrock in the places I told him NOT to and all the rest of the walls were ready and empty...I'll stop now.