So what manufacturers do you guys recommend for new construction windows and doors. We are getting ready to get quotes and want to look at all our options. We heard from a builder (not ours) a long time ago that all glass is made by the same company and that andersen and pella are just big marketing companies but we aren’t sure whether to believe him or not.
Anyways please give us your thought. We are in Kansas so we will need something that helps on the Winter and Summer.
Thanks,
–Carlos
Replies
I've had fewer issues with Kolbe & Kolbe so far in seeing what works well after all the "merits" are weighed and compared.
The way I percieve it, all manus have strengths and weaknesses that have varied over the years, and K&K has maintained a steady product.
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Depends....
Is it a starter home or a $800k "finisher" home? ie - what's your budget? What kind of windows do you want? What kind of performance are you willing to pay for? Low maintenance or best looking... What is the exterior wall cladding - brick? Wood or cement board siding? Vinyl? etc
Also depends on what is available in your area.
I've got the K&K windows in my own home that Sphere mentioned. Can't remember but I think that they were around $15k. Pretty expensive in my book - It's not a starter home. Some houses I build get $1500 worth of windows (total).
Someone else might tell you Marvin but they would be out of place on a less expensive home as would the K&K.
I think there is only a few glass manufacturers. Still, once you start getting into specialized coatings, argon fill, etc, the glass mfg ends being a moot point. There is a guy around here who is a true expert on that subject.
Edited 1/12/2009 8:17 am ET by Matt
The new home will be between 250 and 300K. Its around 2000 sq ft on the main floor, walkout basement. Stucco on the outside mixed with stone.
Try using the advanced search here also, we have a window discussion about every couple weeks.
I'v come to like Marvins best as top of the line.
Andersens have a great track record and pretty darn good windows.
I've ad lots of troubles with Pella.
Andersen has their own float glass plant making all of their glass and even use the same silica sand sources they did thirty years ago, so the olour is consisant if you addon later.
I think Pella makes their own glas. Not sure about Marvin, but I can say for sure that the builder who you heard this story from was making it up on the fly or repeating bar talk.
half the window game is finding out who in your local area has good follow-up and warrantee service
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Piffin, Cardinal Insulating Glass has manufactured Andersens insulated glass units for years, are you saying Andersen supplies the glass to CIG for them to fabricate?
>>> Andersen has their own float glass plant making all of their glass and even use the same silica sand sources they did thirty years ago, so the olour is consisant if you addon later.
I think Pella makes their own glas. Not sure about Marvin <<<
Piffin,
I am not sure where you might have heard that Andersen has a float line, but they don't. Virtually 100% of the glass that they use comes from Cardinal. The same is true for Pella and Marvin as well.
I don't know of any window/door company in in the world (outside of China) that owns its own float line.
Marvin uses Cardinal glass.
Jeff
I think I said that a couple of posts ago, but even I don't always understand what I say...
What I am saying is that Andersen took me on a tour of their facilites back in 2000. Party of the tour was a side trip to the float plant where they emphasized that they had total control of the glass manufacturing process so that they could control quality, Started att eh furnace and walked on down the line seeing the whole process and getting indoctrinated with their PR. It was impressive.If you are saying they don't own what they tried to impress me as being theirs, somebody is wrong. I even remember one of the points they made is how they had even purchased one of the sand pits they took raw material from to assure that supply would remain consistent.So I wonder if they own it as a subsidiary? I know they did say they sold glass to others too. But they worked hard to create the impression that the facility we toured belonged to them.
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Assuming that you drove a bit less than two hours from Andersen's Bayport plant to get to the float line, they took you to Cardinal's Menomonie Wisconsin facility.
Menomonie was Cardinal's first float plant.
Based on what you heard at the Menomonie float, I am guessing that either the tour guide didn't make it clear that he or she was a Cardinal employee and not part of Andersen, or that the Andersen employee accompanying the tour was a bit over-zealous in his or her discussions of control of the float operations.
Although Cardinal is certainly the primary glass supplier to Andersen, it is a totally independent company and other than what appears to be a really tight customer/supplier relationship between them, they both still do their own thing. Andersen does use some Guardian glass in a few products (100 series windows comes to mind) and Cardinal does supply other window companies with their glass products (over 500 window companies per the Cardinal website).
They are completely independent of one another; no subsidiary relationship or shared ownership whatsoever. Both are privately held companies.
What you describe about owning the sand pit where the silica comes from is absolutely correct, but Cardinal owns that source, not Andersen.
Andersen does have a window plant in Menomonie, though. It is where most of their 200 series windows are produced.
It was the same tour guide working for Andersen who took us thru all their facilities. I think at that time, they had announced that they were on the verge of coming out with a new line - which I think was the 200 series.It was definitely a sales trip.At the time my local supplier invited me to go, I said, "Gee Andy, I don't buy that many Andersen windows..."He said, "I know, but you buy a lot of windows" with a wink and a grin.
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It does sound like the tour guide might have been a bit unclear about who owned what at the time.
I was actually at the Cardinal Menomonie float about two months ago. If you have a chance to visit it again it is worth the trip. They have automated virtually all of the process and it is an amazing sight to see.
For those who read this and have never seen a float plant, imagine processing over 600 tons of glass every day for 15 years - non stop. If you are at all interested in really cool manufacturing processes - it is worth the effort to go watch a float in operation.
I saw it on TV, using molten Tin..it was neat.
We have a big glass industry here in KY, I believe Sylvania and PPG have operations in Versailles ( Sylvania) and Richmond ( PPG). I don't know what they produce tho'.
Just from what I have been buying these last two yrs, I can attest, glass has risen in price quite a bit, and the "Old" wavy glass reproduction is insanely exp. I was quoted 55 dollars for a single strength pane 10"x20". I've been hoarding all useable reclaimed pcs. I can get my hands on.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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Its even better in person. An amazing process!
I am familiar with the Richmond plant, but that is actually an AFG/AGC float line rather than PPG - all those initials just tend to get in the way. I don't know anything about the Sylvania plant though.
Wavy glass is usually made by a process called drawn glass although it can be mouth blown as well. Much of the restoration glass used in the US comes from Germany whcih doesn't help the price any, but $55 for a piece that small is insane.
Check online for SA Bendheim. They are the largest decorative glass importer in the US and they might be able to help you some day.
Edited 1/13/2009 8:43 pm ET by Oberon
Cool, thanks for the tip.
That customer is on a financial hold at the moment, but I will be re-sashing the 1830's DH's and trying to salvage the lites.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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A lot of folks are currently on financial hold. Hopefully that will change inthe next year!
Oberon, Do you have any recommendations regarding for ordering your own glass? I plan on building an exterior french door and windows for my house and am trying to determine where I can order double glazed low-e for them. I don't trust my local glass shop who fabricates their own. The neighbor across the street ordered through them for replacement glass in a large metal frame bay window, replacing single panes w/ double glazed, and I can see how wavy they are every time I look at their house.Sorry for the hijack, any information will help.Thanks,Ott
Hi Ott,
Buying finished IG units can be difficult outside of using local glass shops.
Wavy is likely to indicate that they used tempered glass in the construction of the IG. Tempered glass is never completely flat, but the amount of waviness can vary significantly often depending on the the skill of the furnace operator.
For your French door you would have to use either tempered or laminated as well in order to meet code and also because it would be an amazingly bad idea to not use tempered or laminated in a French door.
You might chat with the local glass shop and see what they can do for you - or try to find another. Sorry I couldn't offer more.
Yes, it was very impressive! What is it - something like a quarter mile long molten nickle float?
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IIRC it's zinc. They used to use mercury, but it's a bit toxic, especially when hot.
God is REAL, unless explicitly declared INTEGER
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Float_glassLooks like Sphere had the better memory.
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OK, tin. Neither one of us had it right.
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Interesting that it's only been since the 50s.
God is REAL, unless explicitly declared INTEGER
I remembered becuase we used to "Lay out" alloys of lead, tin and zinc for making organ pipes of the newly laid sheet.
We had a long table 16' or so and 4' wide. Covered w/canvas and talc on that. A sliding box with a lower corner gapped about an 1/8" that was operated by a sliding slat. The box was filled with tin/lead/zinc ( ratio depending on the use of the pipe, taller= less lead, so's it'd not fall on itself from it's own weight).
After the box was full, the slat was pulled and molten would start flowing out the slit..one guy on each side would then guide the box down the table and lay out an even thickness sheet of metal. When cool, it was rolled up and later when pipes were needed a suitable hunk was cut of and a seam soldered down the length..often they were tapered and rolled on a pipe mandrel.
If a pipe needed to be a 16' or taller stop, sections were mitered and soldered..like a trumpet with the curls.
anyway, when we layed sheets, it occured to me that glass was flatter,and I wondered how they got glass flat..so I studied it, and found it ironic that TIN was what made the glass flat,and I was try to get TIN flat..LOLSpheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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Yeah, I saw a video of that when our church was in the market for a new organ. (I wondered at the time if it isn't toxic to the workers.)
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Me too. With all the occupational hazards I have had , pesticides, lead etc. It's a wonder I'm still alive. I do know one guy who had made some inlays on stair treads on a job I once helped on, the inlay was pewter and the Antimony was causing him health problems. I don't think I was exposed to that. Yet.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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I know that stained-glass artists have problems with the alloys.
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Yeah, don't put the cames and solder in yer mouth..LOLSpheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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The glass floats on molten tin called the "tin bath". The entire line from end to end is close to 1/2 mile I have been told - I have never tried to measure it, but it feels like a heck of a long way. I am not sure how long the tin bath is, but I do know that it is divided into several different parts and there are eddies and currents in the molten glass just like you would have if it were water.
Did they take you under the furnace? You can't stay long because the temp is about 140F - which will warm you up in a hurry.
"Did they take you under the furnace? You can't stay long because the temp is about 140F - which will warm you up in a hurry."Nope - they couldn't get my hands and feet tied good enough. I got away!;)
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hehehehehehe
(manly chuckle, not girly giggle)
I have heard that some big solar panel manf were thinking about integrating their PV lines with a float glass line. Something about having one big giant factory that does everything as a way to control costs and assure supply?
Do you have any idea if this has happened yet or is even relatively possible?
Thanks,
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Edited...
If PV grows like many folks hope that it does, the demand for glass for construction, automotive, and PV may possibly exceed current capacity.
There may come a day when more glass will need to be produced than is currently available in our part of the world.
Edited 1/13/2009 9:06 pm ET by Oberon
Edited 1/14/2009 8:42 pm ET by Oberon
Go ahead and tell him and then kill him. We wont tell anyone. Promise.
My original answer was dumb, but my excuse is I have a bad cold and my head was all fuzzy from over-the-counter medication...so I edited it.
I think the new answer is probably better ;-)
Funny, but prior to getting involved in the glass and window world I spent just about 20 years in the Navy where I had one of those sorts of jobs (tell em, kill em) - but with the end of the cold war....
http://www.ijnhonline.org/volume5_number2_august06/article_weir_sosus_aug06.htm
Edited 1/14/2009 8:46 pm ET by Oberon
Well DAMM SIR,
VP-66 here..been out since '86.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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CPO here, out in 1991. And you don't have to call me SIR, my parents were married.
I used to go on VP rides out of Kef and Adak - and even Bermuda a few times. Did a bluenose out of Kef one time on an EP-3. That was an interesting flight - of course it never actually happened.
You guys operated out of? Were you an AW by any chance?
Edited 1/14/2009 9:30 pm ET by Oberon
Yep, Willie's Grave Nasal Hair Station.
P3-A Orion, I was listening to fish farts.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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Willie's Grave Nasal Hair Station - that is in PA as I recall?
I have had a chance to ride along on A's, B's and C's over my tenure, almost caught a ride on a Neptune way back, but I missed my chance.
I always liked the A's because they had the computer's that put out a good bit of heat and you could cuddle up next to one to stay warm and take a nap on those long cold arctic flights.
Everything on the C's was new and efficient and there was no where to take a nap - unless you were a driver.
Maybe I once helped you find one of those farting fish...
Willow Grove is just outside of Phila. I did a lot of time at Johnsville ( nearby) and it was dont tell..then closed.
I was over the Atl. to the Azores for the most part.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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Did you ever get up Kef? I seem to remember VP66 deploying there at one time, of course I was there 77-79, so that is a few years back...
yeah, 66 would dump and pump there, I never saw the glory time, just shut eye and 'oh wow' hate to see it go".
We actually watched over the Ele. Sub stations for the East Grid, sona's for ATL ASW and patrol of the outer banks.
Did you know that there is a LOT of Ele. infrastructure that needs airborne eyeballs?Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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Some one posted a story, maybe 4-8 months ago, about a new glass plant being approved for making glass for PV.IIRC it was in one of the NW states..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Chehalis, Washington
Edited 1/14/2009 8:26 pm ET by Oberon
Andersen makes their own windows right here in Minnesota..
They've become extremely successful listening to the workers..They've made improvements all along the way. Often engineers work on ideas created in the suggestion box and if it's implimented the suggestor gets a major bonus. As a result their workers can earn way above industry average wages and put their very best efforts into doing a great job for a company that treats them extremely well.
I'm not a builder, but am a fan of Andersen. My home had low end Andersen windows when built. When I added on 2 years ago, I looked at upgrading to a better window to save some energy. Andersen make a cool retrofit kit to put new sashes in old frames. As long as the old windows were installed well, the installation of new sashes was slicker 'n snot. I was able to replace all of my windows with the equivalent of their 400 series at about 20 minutes per window. I just like the ease of the job, efficiency and look of the new windows, and am very happy. I was also able to rebuild the 20 year old sliding door with about $100 in parts. Now operates much better and doesn't leak cold air anymore. The parts were easy to find on the Andersen website and their folks were friendly in helping me get what I needed. My point is this- like anything else that goes into your home- long term serviceability matters. I like the quality of Andersen and the ease of getting parts and pieces if necessary. Having no experience with any other manufacturers I cannot comment good or bad. The dealer matters quite a bit too. Find someone you feel comfortable working with as a high end window package gets expensive fast.
Yeah, one thing about Andersen is that the parts are always available.
God is REAL, unless explicitly declared INTEGER
Andersen does make some very nice windows... they also make a bottom of the line not so nice. It all depends which one you pick.
GM made vettes but a chevette will never be a corvette. ... and I have mediated more then one person saying..... but, but, they are Andersen.
You might also check out Hurds. Nice windows, lot of styles, good energy performance.
All glass is not created equal. A cousin has a door and window business in Vermont. He had so much trouble getting good quality glass, he ended up buying a glass manufacturing plant...
I went down to the lobby
To make a small call out.
A pretty dancing girl was there,
And she began to shout,
"Go on back to see the gypsy.
He can move you from the rear,
Drive you from your fear,
Bring you through the mirror.
He did it in Las Vegas,
And he can do it here."
Snort,
What kind of line did your cousin buy? As I recall there are 47 float lines in North America at the moment. But I am not 100% certain exactly how many are on line right now.
I believe that 40 (give or take a couple) are currently on line, which leaves at least one or two in rebuild process and at least four that have been shut down due to the economy. Then there was one was flooded by hurricane Ike, but that one may be back online, I am not sure if it is yet.
None of them however are owned by a window or door company.
Since a state-of-the-art float line is about a $140,000,000 investment (give or take a few bucks), and since none of them are owned by anyone other than the companies I mention somewhere down the road in this ramble, I am guessing that your cousin purchased something other than a float.
And so who owns the floats??
Well, Cardinal owns five of them, including the last two that were constructed in the US;
PPG has seven (one, Mt. Zion, PA is currently shut down and one Wichita Falls, TX was flooded by Ike, but I think it may be running again);
AGC (Asahi) had nine but they "cold-stopped" three of them which destroys the line. They cannot be restarted without complete rebuild.
Guardian has eight lines, Pilkington has four, and I have just about melted my brain remembering those (and I might be off by one or two);
so figure the rest belong to three other companies - Zeledyne (formerly Versalux, formerly Visteon, formerly Ford), Saint-Gobain, and VVP own the rest as I recall.
Again, I might have missed one or two in there - but nothing else is coming to mind at the moment.
Although non-float products such as mouth-blown, drawn glass, or rolled glass really aren't suitable for modern windows, they are often used for restoration or art glass, and there are a more than few of each of those around and they aren't owned by the large glass-making companies.
Sorry for the trivia parade!
Edited 1/12/2009 8:52 pm ET by Oberon
Boy, you got me, don't know much about glass. He didn't ask to borrow any money, so now I'm pretty sure it's not a float plant.I checked his web site:http://www.woodstone.com/resources.htmlDon't see anything about them owning a plant, and see a couple of plants you mentioned... I may have mis-remembered.So can you explain a little about the differing quality of glass? For example: I put 4 Simpson full glass doors in a house. 3 of the doors are fine, but one gives a distorted look, especially at night &/or cloudy days. Howcome?http://www.tvwsolar.com
I went down to the lobby
To make a small call out.
A pretty dancing girl was there,
And she began to shout,
"Go on back to see the gypsy.
He can move you from the rear,
Drive you from your fear,
Bring you through the mirror.
He did it in Las Vegas,
And he can do it here."
I wonder if it's not what happened here at my shack, every damm window has collapsed and it's like living in a fun house.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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If they're Andersen, they're warrantied for 20 years. I used to replace alot of them when I was doing service work for them. Should be free to you.
Not a chance, the previous owners son was a manger at Lowes, and they got the cheapest vinyl DH/without grills or anything fancy they could get.
Everything in the house was seconds or returned items with damage..you should see the prehung 6 panel masonite junk..when they call em "split jambs", they meant it..LOLSpheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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In our part of the world glass may be manufactured for several different applications.
Mirror glass for example is very high quality and is intended to be free of virtually any optical distortion.
Glass intended for softcoat LowE coatings is manufactured as "coating quality glass" - great play on words there.
Some glass is manufactured primarily for automotive and some primarily for construction - and to be honest I would have to ask a float glass production engineer to describe the differences between them - if any.
There is low iron glass such as PPG's Starphire for applications that need maximum visible light transmission. Solar voltaic panels may use low iron glass for maximum solar gain, for example.
"Standard" float glass in our part of the world is going to be of a failry consistent high quality. Given that older float lines might have to work a bit harder than newer lines to maintain that level of quality.
Collapsed glass is a different topic entirely and one that has been discussed here before. I have to run off so I can't address it now, but I will try to do so later assuming someone else doesn't do so in the meantime.
enjoy all!
This glass isn't collapsed, at least doesn't look that way, it's just the view is distorted... HOs actually think it's pretty cool.http://www.tvwsolar.com
I went down to the lobby
To make a small call out.
A pretty dancing girl was there,
And she began to shout,
"Go on back to see the gypsy.
He can move you from the rear,
Drive you from your fear,
Bring you through the mirror.
He did it in Las Vegas,
And he can do it here."
I got new bifocals and everything is distorted, ya think they have the same problem? (G)Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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Can you describe the distortion?
I think you hit it in your answer to ott. Full light tempered glass. At certain angles and lighting things look wayvy, for lack of a better word.http://www.tvwsolar.com
I went down to the lobby
To make a small call out.
A pretty dancing girl was there,
And she began to shout,
"Go on back to see the gypsy.
He can move you from the rear,
Drive you from your fear,
Bring you through the mirror.
He did it in Las Vegas,
And he can do it here."
And not always the "good" kind of wavy (not like restoration glass).
Tempered glass should be run and installed so that the rollwave distortion is horizontal. It makes it much less noticeable than when it is run/installed so that the waves are vertical.
But, even horizontally it is sometimes possible to get noticeable distortion. Add a second tempered lite in an IG configuration and you have increased that visible distortion due to non parallel surfaces between the inner and outer lites (this can be really bad in laminated tempered glass for example).
Often, the closer the glass is to square, the harder it is to avoid distortion. And the thinner the glass the more likely it can have problems.
Tempered glass can also be somewhat concave or convex (hold water, shed water is how tempering folks describe it), depending on the balance of heat between the upper surface of the glass and the lower surface during the heating operation.
There are all sorts of computer assists on newer tempering lines to minimize these problems, and there are formulas and recipes that are used as well, but ultimately it often depends on the skill of the operator to "read" the glass as he or she is running it in order to produce relatively distortion-free glass. And a really good operator is worth his or her weight in gold (to use a cliche).
So, 4 inexpensive glass doors, 8 glass panels, 1 door with a wayviness the HOs like... lucked out, huh?<G>http://www.tvwsolar.com
I went down to the lobby
To make a small call out.
A pretty dancing girl was there,
And she began to shout,
"Go on back to see the gypsy.
He can move you from the rear,
Drive you from your fear,
Bring you through the mirror.
He did it in Las Vegas,
And he can do it here."
apparently so...... ;-)
I've used Marvin windows a lot and am just not sold on the quality of them. I wouldn't recommend them.
Example?:
My current project is a remodel / addition where we went with Marvin. We went $11,000 over budget on the windows and a door.
4 x Double Hung, Divided Light
2 x Double Casement
1 x Triple Casement
1 Arched top Double Casement
1 Small Single Casement
3 x 3 Lite Casement Bay
1 huge 6 x 12 - 3 Lite casement Bay
Mahogany French Door
We've had problems of some sort with most of them. Very disappointing at a very pretty penny.
All of the windows could not be primed or painted by Marvin as they do not have the facilities req'd by OSHA to do so. This has added a lot of work and wait time for them to be painted on site before they can be installed. This was not a surprise, we knew this when ordering but it is a pain in the ####.
The 4 double hung windows, when closed fully do not latch together properly. They close too far and the latch does not create the seal it is supposed to and does not securely lock either. Seems like there is a measurement off slightly in the sash height or window frame.
We have even reveals, square and plumb frames with equal measurements all round but I doubt that the owners wife is going to be able to open or close these windows they are so damn stiff. No easy glide here.
All 3 Casement bay windows are supported by tension cable support systems. The windows come with the top and bottom pre-drilled for the cables to feed through. The holes were drilled on an angle making it impossible to feed the cables through. I had to re drill all the holes. The r/o's supplied by Marvin were wrong. My work partner Erick is packing out the openings in the photo below. The inside of the bay windows are all finished in stain grade wood yet there's at least one nail in each window that has split the wood beyond easy stainable repair. The windows are trimmed on the exterior from the factory with 5/4 x 4 cedar and have thick stock sills. The sill are cut square (as is the trim) where it would meet the sheathing / wall. It just doesn't look right, especially the sill.
The big bay window was trimmed at the factory too and has no joinery / fastener on the joints between the side / head (top) trim. It's just flopping around. Yes it will be nailed to the sheathing when installed but I personally always biscuit join or pocket screw my trim.
The $9000 stain grade mahogany door sucks!
It was sold to us as a "Mahogany door" but is mahogany veneer. I understand this though, not really a problem but it was never mentioned or made clear. ALso the mahogany jamb is finger jointed. I don't like this.
Poor choice of lumber. So much strongly mismatched colour in the mahogany. There's pieces I wouldn't even allow onto the shop floor.
The door is "stain grade" yet when reading through the installation manual (yes I do that) it says clearly that the door is treated on the exterior with a UV / weather resistant coating and we cannot use a varnish or poly based finish, it will void the warranty. The factory coating is very visible on joints (where its been dipped I assume) on the inside too.
We've had our Marvin rep come out and look at it all. I have a great relationship with this guy. He's also been my lumber yard rep for years. After his sales robot like excuses and out obvious dissatisfaction with the products he had a guy from the Marvin factory come look at it today. The first thing the guy from the factory noticed was the door panels being terribly matched with poor lumber selection. He's sending us new doors.
They are looking into the double hungs. We had installed them correctly. He had no explanation for the operation ease or locking / seal problems.
We've spoken to at least 5 people from Marvin about the door finishing guide / recommendations and nobody has any idea or real understanding of it.
We cannot wait for replacements for the small things like cracks where nails have split the wood etc, we just have to suck it up.
There may be more but I am tired!
I take pride in my work quality and expect others to do so, especially when paying a lot of money for "custom" products.
Oh yeah they do look pretty. This was taken yesterday.
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