Window placement, how high is too high?
Johnny1985489
| Posted in Construction Techniques on
Dumb question maybe but I was in a house recently where the windows felt like they were framed up too high and looked awkword. As framing is about to start on my house I am hoping for some general advise. I am using 10′ studs and the windows are each 4′ tall. 6×4, 3×4, etc. Is there a general guideline for window placement?
Replies
I would hope that with 10' ceilings you are using doors at least 7'0" tall. A 6'8" door is going to look way silly. The idea is to get the scale of everything to work together.
We have 9' ceilings, and most of the windows are 4-4 high. Doors are 7-0. The heads of the windows are in line with the heads of the doors, which is pretty common practice. Everything looks happy together.
Three feet of wall above a window can get to look pretty empty. You might try some tricks to lower that visual distance. Install a drop soffit in your big public rooms, or paint the ceiling color a foot down the walls, or add a frieze board and crown treatment; doesnt have to be fancy, expensive stuff.
Bruce
Between the mountains and the desert ...
Johnny
Not a dumb question at all. I live in San Luis Obispo County, CA, and my window height (at least in bedroom's which may dictate the height of other windows in the house just for uniformity sake) is regulated based on fire safety egress. It says:
Unless an approved door for emergency escape is provided, there will be at least one openable window located within basements and in every sleeping room below the fourth story. Egress will conform with the following requirements:
Maximum finished sill height from floor level - 44".
Minimum net clear opening area - 5.7 Sq. ft.
Minimum height of opening - 24", minimum width - 20".
I would double check your local codes, just in case they require the same sort of thing.
B. Horton
johnny.... 10' walls ?
your doors should probably be 7' WITH a transom over..
and the windows should align with the top of the transom..
but really.. this calls for the services of a design professional with some knowledge of classical proportioning..or anyways.. someone with a knowledge or willing to research classical proportioning....
you can spend a LOT of money for construction, but if the design sucks.... the whole thing sucks
the windows and doors are the facial features of your house.. they have to look right both inside the room and outside on the elevation
Mike, you mentioned transom lights. Have you used these recently? Where do yo get them or do you make them?
I was considering putting them in my investment property (they would fit the age of the house) but I couldnt find them anywhere. I was gonna make them but I ultimately decided not to do them. I even had trouble finding the hardware.
Edited 11/23/2005 7:06 pm ET by MSA1
i didn't mean operable transoms.....
i was talking about fixed transoms... and almost every window mfr. has them for each model
here's a link to Andersen's site...
http://www.andersenwindows.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1106584393282&pagename=AW%2FPage%2FawGeneral-3&c=PageMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I thought you were talking about interior doors.
lot's of doors in buildings with high ceilings have operable transoms over them...
but mostly now it's a light issue or a design issue.. they used to function as ventilation back in the day.. now with A/C they're superfluous ( at least in terms of allowing air into rooms with closed doors )Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
they used to function as ventilation back in the day.. now with A/C they're superfluous
Not so much if you have (as is common with CAC retrofit) a single return and supply ducts only to each room....then transoms (or doors left ajar) become real important in preventing negative pressure areas.....
Yeah, I know they're now superfluous, but they do create a neat look.
Your right windows have lost a lot of their functionality. Lamentable as a house that by design has to be cooled by AC and simply cannot be effectively ventilated by opening windows is loosing out on one of the best and free feelings there is.I shake my head in wonder at windows that only open on the bottom half. And this in Florida. Before AC people knew how to build to get as much natural cooling as possible. Windows opened at both top and bottom. Windows were installed as close to the ceiling so the stale hot air was not trapped. They put openings down low and deep underneath overhangs so the coolest air flowed in.Now it is brute force. Windows that don't open enough or high and low enough to provide proper ventilation. Walls of windows facing the southern sun. Not a big problem up north it is brutal down here. A brutality felt every month paying for that oversized AC unit that has to run all the time.Of course energy is cheap. Still is in real terms so nothing will change. Oil hits $100 a barrel and people are going to relearn how to work with nature.
window requirements are for both egress and "entry" - might need to get in from the outside - transoms are generally not allowed in new construction as they are not fire resistive rated and when they fail, the fire will travel into another space
"transoms are generally not allowed in new construction as they are not fire resistive rated and when they fail, the fire will travel into another space"
Since when are there fire-resistance ratings required inside a single family dwelling (other than the garage/house separation)? I guess an open bedroom door would allow fireto travel into another space too- now I need to put in rated doors/frames with self-closers?
I'm confused.....
Bob
you're right about an open door allowing fire to travel but that's why the recommendation is to have the bedroom doors closed when you're sleeping and have interconnected smoke detectors in the hallways and bedrooms. I haven't seen anything about self-closers and rated doors for single families. I also haven't seen much about transoms recently other than them not being allowed in new construction in buildings covered under fire code, typically 4 or more unit residential buildings. Just thought I'd raise the issue before you have a problem with the AHJ.
Bob,
Me too - plenty confused.
I think just about 25% of new construction in this county would fail inspection by firedude's specs - the other 75% might pass because they don't have any transoms.
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
Well I already bought the windows so I plan to use them. I think it will look fine. I live in the country and do not need 10' windows in this house. Sure bigger windows look better but I don't need to spend a fortune on them like some do. I have more important things in my budget like a home theater! I guess there really is no forumula for window placement, Ill just wing it. Thanks for the responses though!
Are you going to line them up at the top?Make sure the one above the kitchen sink isn't to low.Do you have a frieze board detail on the outside that sits on top of the windows and doors?Joe Carola
Edited 11/25/2005 9:39 pm ET by Framer
Come back and show us some photos when you are done winging it. We can;t wait.
I hope that wasn't a sarcastic remark about "wingin it". I am pretty sure many aspects of construction are done by eye balling it. I really hate the way so many of you frown on DIY'ers. Many of you think you belong to an elite club that noone else should join. For the reputation construction workers have as being tough guys you sure do cry alot when an amatuer comes out and accomplishes something you've spent your entire life learning. Heres a picture of my fathers house nearly completed. He winged it on window placement and many other things on this house and it came out just fine. With this thread I was trying to find out if there was a forumula for window placement but I found out there was not, so I'll likely just put them where he put his. It looks fine to me.Personally I think his house is turning out beautiful considering a retired truck driver and a computer geek built it from the ground up. Thank you to all those that actually had constructive feedback on window placement. When I am done "winging" my house I will post pictures of it. I am proud of what we are accomplishing out here.
Johnny, that is a nice looking house. But we aren't seeing ten foot walls with only four feet of window height, as we'll be seeing when you post pics of your completed project.
Window heads are generally placed at the same height as door heads, and with 6/8 door height, your four footers will have their sills 2/8 off floors, which is comfortable and appealing. The use of 7/0 doors will move window sills up to 3/0 off floors, which is getting up there a little, but still OK.
But to have 10/0 ceiling heights throughout, or all over your main floor, using 6/8 or 7/0 doors with window heads at the same as doors, you will want to do some ceiling and wall treatments to deal with that 3/0 to 3/4 of overhead above your openings. You will also need to deal with the "gap" in the way you design and detail the outside of the home.
What I call winging it is what you have done, and that is to plan for and buy all your windows at 4/0 height, then decide on 10 foot walls, then come here and ask for advice on how to put it together. Sounds pretty unplanned to me, and that is often a recipe for design disaster.
People that are not design professionals build houses for themselves all over the place, and many have great success in putting together a composition that works, is livable, and is architecturally appealing. It just sounds as if you have taken an approach here that most of the others have avoided. Are you building from a set of drawings? Can you show us your exterior elevations?
Let me ask this. What is it that makes 10/0 ceilings a must? Will your house be one like you showed in the photo, largely a ranch, with a small area of living under the roof on a second floor?
johnny...... that is a nice house... but it sure ain't gonna make any magazine covers.. and that's a shame.. for a little bit of money to an architect those windows could have been sized and located so that house would shine
and what you didn't pick up on is that YES, there is a formula for sizing windows and placing windows.. and sizing dormers and placing dormers
the problem is that the formula is not one that can be reduced to a rule of thumb..
now if you want to tak offense .. go right ahead.. i will repeat what it's taken me 30 years to figure out:
bad builders are too numerous to count
good builders are a dime a dozen
good design is the most important part of the equation... then you get a good builder to execute it.. and a good homeowner to put the team together
but if you start with bad design ( or mediocore design ) you will end up with a bad house or a mediocore house
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Johnny, don't listen to those guys. If you like what you see on your Dad's place, then do the same.
When you get around to selling it, you'll just have to find someone with your tastes in house design.
blue
exactly... there's an asz for every seat. or was that a seat for every asz ?..
i never could get it right .....Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Right on Mike! One thing I do know: I wouldn't buy Dad's house!
My sister pretty muched proved that for every house there's a buyer. She always managed to buy the ugliest houses and I was always amazed that she didn't know it. Then, I was doubly amazed when she'd find a buyer for it!
blue
Johnny, Johnny, Johnny.I think you remember from my past responses that I am more than willing to help you and hope things work well for you - sometimes in spite of yoruself. I'm doing all I can to help and after this thread has thoroughly nemed the principles and bsics of woindow placement and elevation for you, you twice in a row state that you guess theree is no form and you'll just wing it now. Why ask, if you are goiong to ignore all the good advice and potential for learning? i'm curious.Thjere are a few houses built by just winging it, buit most of them turn out to be whiote pink and purple elephants that can never be sold for the amt of money invested in them.I happen tho think that a house should be enjoyed thoroughly by its inhabitants for as long as they live there instead of being build chgeap and on the fly, with a dozen errors that could easily be avoided with minuimal planning thqat will bother you every single time you see or touch them from now on.What you have done on old dad's place look's fione from here and may even be better than some of the builder's in some areaas do normally, but I'm suggesting that when you ask advice and then decide to ignore it, there is no good reason to insult those who are trying to help at the same time. Winging it is really not a good plan, and those who fail to plan usually plan to fail without knowing it.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
In other words, your house can end up looking like my spelling;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
My opinion -
Your windows are too short for that wall height.
Typically witha 8' wall and 6'8" doors, the top of windows would align with thop of doors. That looks good to have the casings align and it means all headers are same size for easier framing.
In such a scenario, placing top of windows at 6'8" ( 6'10.5" RO) would leave the sills at about 2'8" which is sstill a bit on the high side for some rooms. For instance, if you have a view, you want the glass itself to be no higher than 28" so you can still see the view when seated in the sofa or love seat. (Well, maybe you are looking at something else wen you are on the love seat...)
Max sill height for bedrooms is 42" if my memory is working tonight. Make sure that your BR windows are all size for legal egress.
Anyway, with such high walls and cieling, you do need taller windows, or it will feel dark and cavernous.
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
If you changed the window sizes, you might be a happier guy. 10' ceiling, I'm leaning more on having the tops of the windows about 18" below the ceiling, and a 6' tall window. That gets your proportions a lot closer to ideal. That puts your stools 2 1/2' off the floor.
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain
Based on the window sizes you mentioned I'm guessing these are not DH, but if they are, I always try to pay attention to where the meeting rails land. Try to keep them out of the average eyeball zone if possible. Nothing like a dusty meeting rail to spoil the view.
Don't be constrained by "normal."
I often help clients to see which windows might have blinds drawn most of the time and help them to see that raising the sill height can provide more privacy and allow the blinds to stay out of the picture. Really, if you're going to have the blinds drawn all the time, why spend the money for the window?
As for the top of a window, if it's too high you could end up seeing the roof overhang, which is often undesireable. The top of a window can be higher than the top of a door in the same room, as long as your eye doesn't see them together (inside or outside).
Advocate
Another thing... IIRC any glass within 18" of the floor needs to be tempered.
The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits. -Albert Einstein
http://www.peteforgovernor.com
Johnny,
I my case on the house I framed we had 10' walls and all the windows and doors had transoms over them. We had to set our window height the same as the door height because they all had to line up at the top. So whatever the door height rough opening was, that's what out window height was.
Johnny, those sizes don't sound like windows on a ten foot wall, they sound like portholes.
blue
Who designed the house? Isn't that the person to ask this question?
I did a house a couple years ago where the LR was stepped down into, and its ceiling height was ten feet. But we had two large steel beams overhead, dividing the ceiling into thirds, and the boxdowns for the beams had their bottoms 14 inches below the high ceilings. Perimeter boxdowns matched the beam boxes, so in effect we had a big coffered ceiling.
Door and window heights for this part of the house were all at 8 feet. Windows were very large, with sills down at about two feet off the floor.
I'm building an addition (28' x 32') with 10' studs. I went with 5' X 5' sliders. The ratio of wall to window I thought looked good.
The funny part. My county wasn't that picky about my permit. I didn't include a floor layout. A couple of weeks ago my local lumber yard had a garage sale. I bought three Marvin windows (double hung) that were 8' x 46" for $75 each.
I'm building a connecting room between the old and new house. The new addition is 4 foot higher than the old house so the connecting room has 12 foot high walls. I kinda gambled but for $75 bucks a pop.....Finished rough framing and the roof this weekend. The 8' high RO looks OK.
I like to use graph paper. Graph the wall and the window. You can sense the window/wall proportions