Just wondering what your experiences have been? Luckily, I don’t run into this problem too often.
Bought a six panel slab door from HD back on Dec. 14. Mortised for hinges and began priming. Primed one side at the end of the day and left door on horses to dry so that I could flip and prime the other side on the following day. When I returned in the morning, I noticed a split in the skin along one of the styles. A closer look and it was a crack all the way through to the other side….about six inches long. With the holidays and all, today was my first chance to bring the door back to HD.
Return desk called manager from door dept. over to have a look see as she didn’tquite understand the receipt. Manager saw door as she aproached, and without even acknowledging my existance, told cashier “I’m not taking that door….it’s already been painted.” I immediately made my presence known and demanded a reason. In an extremely rude and accusatory manner, she attempted to put some sort of blame on me. Didn’t ask for details, just stubbornly insisted she wasn’t accepting it.
I can get rather ornery myself…although it ususally takes a bit to get my goat…..especially in a professional enviroment. She obviously was hoping I’d put my tail between my legs and bolt. I insisted on seeing the store manager who she insisted had given her the authority, as she was the dept. manager.
In a less than calm, and professional manner, I explained that unless she gave me a legitimate reason for not taking the door back, I’d make quite a scene while waiting for the store manager to speak with me.
She got on the phone and requested the manager make the trip. He, had either just sat down with a cup of coffee and a donut, or had already heard me loud and clear across the store. He told her to credit my card for the door.
I don’t mind needing a legitimate reason for returning an item…..but this woman refused to even look me in the eye during our encounter. In fact, I think the only words spoken directly to me were “did you leave it outside?”
The store manager will be receiving a letter about the incident, but this woman really got me riled.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
Replies
I had a problem with a Simpson exterior full lite fir door, where some of the lamination had separated (actually more like a split) that I noticed after sealing with spar finish. It wa a prehung and there was an alignment issue as well. Simpson sent a rep out who adjusted it and offered to replace the door as well. I really didn't want to refinish it again so I opted to keep it, but there was no hesitation on their part to replace it.
Once saw a guy returning 3 obviously very used toilets to the HD store in Brooklyn. Manager didn't bat an eye.
Jay,
I had a similar situation with a 6 panel door years ago. Persistence pays off, as the lower lings usually can only follow policy, and act as gate keepers. You just have to get to the right level person who actually has some authority.
Jon
I had a nightmare, 1 year battle with Rona and Robert Windows, they just couldn't get anything right, left vs right openings, different trim styles etc, after a year I got 50% off .. you have to keep at 'em, and never with the counter clerk ..
Never dealt with them. Thanks for the heads up.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
The thing that irritated me the most was this womans attitude.
Not up for discussion...."I'm not taking it back".
If this had been my local lumber yard, even if they felt it wasn't their issue, they would have contacted the manufacturer and had a rep come out to look at it.
"I'm not taking it back". Were she a guy, I woulda smacked her.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
I had a similiar instance albeit with a different product at HD, I worked up through the dept manager, to the store manager, and then called that 800 number they have posted at the front of the store, the 800 number lady was really nice and insisted they should accept the product, it was an 18V battery that crapped out after 1 month. Even after talking with their national help line, the store manager tried to refuse....
In the end I was given a new battery, a 50 dollar gift card, and a phone call from the manager to apolagize...
Thanks for the heads up on the 800 number. I'll give that a shot next time.........and it's an even money bet that there will be a next time.
I was at HD today and they were asking people to sign a petition supporting a new store here. They were a little miffed when I declined and told them I would support Lowes but not HD. I lost even more points when I suggested burning this one down and giving the building site to someone who actually gave a damn about their store and customers.
I think some of the HD are hiring hard asses that try to scare people off.
Just jumping up and down and yelling like a maniac usually works.
Not a very attractive solution but it does work.
A total and complete bunch of inept a s s holes all under one roof. What more can one desire?
Eric
[email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
Ditto on the 800 number complaint line. I've seen many a customer get free kitchens by calling it.
Most of their vendors must accept a destroy at store return policy. Meaning if someone returns it they take credit from the vendor then are "supposed" to throw it away. I doubt you were the first person to return that door but having painted it you disrupted the sale and return cycle.
There is more then 1 way to make a profit.
"
I think some of the HD are hiring hard asses that try to scare people off.
Just jumping up and down and yelling like a maniac usually works.
Not a very attractive solution but it does work.
A total and complete bunch of inept a s s holes all under one roof. What more can one desire?"
Hey Eric,
Ever been to the HD in Yonkers, NY. Absolutely THE worst HD IMO in the USA. No hablo Englaze in almost every dept from the help,...standing there in three's chatting. ....not to mention the sheer disorganization of the place.................so much for then lol [master plumber and electrician] in those depts. I could go on , but that's wy I moved to WI.
This does not just come from me, but every one I know in NY who has TRIED to shop there. What a joke.................
Jon B.
Jon
Dearborn, MI and the (now closed - moved to Detroit) old Southfield, MI HD's are (were) the worst Home Depots I've ever been to.Funny thing is, the old Southfield sh*thole store closed and they built a new store in Detroit 3 miles away and now it is already a pc. of crap location as well.JT
No, wait once maybe.
Been to the one in New Rochelle though.............holy crap what a mess.
Every sipbag "contractor" must be there, the place is run like a maximum security prison.
You stay in the truck, lock the doors and don't make eye contact with anyone.
That place is a hell hole.[email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
OK, I give... what's a "sipbag contractor"?
(sp)
ship(t)bag.
Hey, it's early![email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
Been to the one in New Rochelle though.............holy crap what a mess.
Dats da one!
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
Jon -
I've never been to Yonkers, but I'll nominate their store on Capitol Expy in San Jose, CA as that worst HD in the nation. It was pretty good when it first opened, but started going downhill within six months. The place is an armpit now.
To be fair, I'll also nominate the HD on Tennant Ave in Morgan Hill, CA as one of the best. I was working down there (about 20 miles south of San Jose) early last year and was absolutely amazed. The store was clean, the shelves organized, the employees helpful and actually knew what they were doing. I'm almost afraid to go back.................it's a good bet that the management has been fired so the store could be re-shaped into the HD image - lol.
Welcome to the wonderful world of Home Depot. I had a similar experience a few months ago with some maple plywood I had bought there. When I made the first cut, I saw that there was a major (about 2' long) delamination in the first sheet off the truck.
I took all three sheets and my receipt back the next day (a Saturday) and joined a small herd of people in the return line. After almost 45 minutes, I finally got my turn and was told that they couldn't accept the sheet I had cut. With an almost unprecedented level of cool (I've been known to go from zero to seriously pissed off in seconds), I asked how I could have known about the delamination before I cut it.
When I asked to talk to the manager, I was asked to "step over there and we'll call him". Things got really interesting when I announced loudly that I would just wait right there at the registar. The return line hadn't shortened any and the folks behind me started sounding ugly. My very informal poll seemed to show an even split between the folks who wanted her to "just give him his damn money back" and those who wanted to find a rope and "hang that azzhole".
After arguing with the dimwit from the lumber department for a few minutes (he wanted to stick to the policy that I couldn't return it because I had cut it), I finally got to talk (argue?) with the manager. He finally agreed to the return, but I suspect it was really just to get me out of there since the folks who were looking for the rope started arguing about which azzhole to hang first.
There have to be a few folks around here near my age who remember a thing we used to have many of called lumber yards. There are still a few and for those who have never used one it might just be a new experience to stop by and get to know the folks at the nearest one.
It has one small downside in that not everything is on display in a giant box full of half blocked asiles but the upsides more than make up for it.
Yes, prices may be up to 10% higher on some things but most will be 10-25% lower and they offer something none of the big boxes have found yet called SERVICE. If you get stuck with damaged goods you phone them and a replacement is ordered on your word and THEY send someone to retrieve the damaged product and whne the replacement arrives they call and DELIVER it to the job site, often carrying it into position.
The yard I use would send me a box of nails if I was in a real bind but most often I run in and get my own nails because of the free coffee and goodies always at the counter.
On the price issue I have never found an instance where even when the big boxes were running a promo my yard wouldn't beat their flyer price if asked.
One other small issue is that Made in China labels are much harder to find at lumber yeards also, so those eager to speed the economic delevlopement of China will have to stick to the big boxes and Wal mart cause the local yards work on a different business model and like a system where most of the employees have a vauge idea of what they are doing and not the big box model of having lots of dead minds flosting around the stores in cute vest but deaf ears and no idea at all what half the things on the shelves in front of them are for.
I like my little locallumber yard and take some time to get to know the folks at one near you and you will never regret it !!!!
No doubt - you should get your money back with no hassle... On the other hand, maybe some other customer had just pi$$ed in this person's Weaties just 5 minutes before you got there - or maybe she was just told - well, you only get a 1% raise because your department is not making any money... hard to say. Also, when dealing with people I try to give them the benefit of a doubt while at the same time I don't expect to have too indepth conversations with people who make minimum wage or slightly more than MW. Also, if this particular employee is that rude - the problem will take care of itself - either she will change, or get the boot, weather you intervene or not...
Usually the big box places are really good about returning stuff. She was probably just thinking that the item couldn't be resold since it was painted, and just didn't really think it thru enough to realize it was a POS that couldn't have been resold even if it were not painted.
"I don't expect to have too indepth conversations with people who make minimum wage or slightly more than MW."And that pretty much sums up the state of customer service in this country.I've long ago realized that there's absolutely nothing to be gained from being pissed at folks that work at big-box chain stores. They themselves are treated like crap from the corporation, and the least of their concerns is you.Having sat in return lines, I would estimate that for every 2 legimitimate returns, there's 1 idiot that's haggling over a dime price change or trying to return 2" of 2x4. I don't blame these minimum wage making folks from not giving a damn. I sure wouldn't.
Darrel hit it dead right!
"I've long ago realized that there's absolutely nothing to be gained from being pissed at folks that work at big-box chain stores. They themselves are treated like crap from the corporation, and the least of their concerns is you."
If you hire cheapest labor possible, and treat them like crap, this is the result.
The corporation doesn't treat customers much better than the hired help.
How many time have you seen:
1) THOUSANDS of dollars standing in line waiting to be spent, and no one in management has the idea to open another register or two?
2) a register "locked up" cause something doesn't have a price or rings up wrong, and the cashier isn't authorized to edit the transaction.
3) used,broken, returned merchandise put back in stock for resale.
4) why does a company so concerned about "loss prevention" have 3 or 4 self check out lines?
These are the choices of "corporate management" and I suggest they are fine with it.
Bill
I once ran into a problem with a car radio that was on warranty with Best Buy. They sent it in once, got it back (after several weeks), wasn't fixed, and they just wanted to send it in again -- said they got three tries to fix it before repairing it. Taking the radio out is a 20-minute procedure, and they had missed an obvious problem (you could FEEL that the volume control was broken), so I wasn't having any of it.
I made a point to throw a hissy fit right in the front of the store, with a dozen folks waiting in checkout lines, shouting about how their warranties were worthless. The manager had me a new radio in under 5 minutes.
happy?
As an employee of HD, I would like to apologize for your experience. It should NOT have been dealt with that way. First any product coming back with an obvious defect will go to RTVs (return to vendor) and the vendor will credit the store. Therefore there was no reason to claim they weren't going to give you a refund or exchange.
But then again, I'm old school and one of the ones who has been there awhile and is disappointed with where the company has gone under the current CEO. (His contract is up in Feb!) I am constantly seeing them hire and promote those with the almighty dollar in their eyes rather than those who understand service.
Also consider the number of times a day we get crack addicts trying to steal something and then return it for cash. The masses also thought we had a very leniant return policy and try to return empty cans of paint (well not really empty as they did fill it with used motor oil) and many, many others. Unfortunately for you and others, it seems to be that assuming its a 'ripoff' has become the rule instead of the exception.
Please do use the Ben Hill line to report any incidents like this.
JDRl,
the store manager did the right thing, get the crazy guy outa the store before it gets ugly.On the other hand even though the door was painted on one side,the dept head should have taken it back.It's damaged and it's not like the're going to resell it.
Vince Carbone
I think the thing to keep in mind about threads like this is that it is all about which perspective your coming from. Are you looking at the situation from the customer (who if we are honest about it are going into the store knowing full well this is a discount store with employees that really don't care that much. would you?) or from the store(who probably have more storys about customers who are idiots than you can dream up).You just have to realize that there are probably forum threads a mile long from home owners with horror stories about rude,impertinent builders.These types of threads(on both sides) seem to just turn into a contest about who can piss the farthest."The purpose of life is rapture. Here and now"
Boy----- it pains me to defend Home Depot---ouch!!!!
but---- imagineing myself on the OTHER side of the counter------------ I can't imagine WHY on earth I would accept your return in this case?????
to me----- you bought a slab---apparently with out inspecting it in the store.----- You transported it to the job
You STILL didn't inspect it( as far As I would be able to tell
you mortised it for hinges
You painted half the door
And NOW--- you want to return it?---- looking at it from Home Depot's standpoint----why on earth would they accept it back?????------ It's not like it was hidden damage inside a shrinkwrapped box.
and---- even if I assume the door was PEREFECT when ya took it home--------- that was 2 and a half weeks ago----- who knows HOW it's been treated since then???
Home depot doesn't sound all that unreasonable to me( and I LOOOOOVE to bash Blowes and Home Despot)
Also--------- judgeing a persons character by their willingness to look you in the eye is a pretty poor technique---- hardly infallible. Eye contact is probably a better measurement of self confidence and aggressiveness than ethical behavior or human value
remember---any politician ,good salesman or lawyer will be able to look you directly in the eye and lie without hesitation
Many people are prettymild and non---confrontational----- but for a variety of OTHER attributes find themselves in a place where they have to deal with more aggressive types------------- lack of Eye contact is a pretty bad indicator of honesty.
Best wishes,
Stephen
You certainly seem to be well qualified for a position in management at HD Stephen. You`ve done the exact same thing as the manager I dealt with the other day.
to me----- you bought a slab---apparently with out inspecting it in the store.----- You transported it to the job
You STILL didn't inspect it( as far As I would be able to tell
Why , on the first hand, would you assume any such thing?. And even if that is your first assumption...why wouldn`t you ask? She didn't either. Of course I inspected it. The door was shrink wrapped and only small portions were covered by cardboard inserts. After arriving on the job and unpacking, I inspected further. No signs of splitting, cracking, warping or any other such damage. Even if you chose not to believe me.....wouldn't it make sense to ask?
you mortised it for hinges
Yes I did. That's the first thing I do. I like to at least prime behind hinges prior to instalation. It also allows me to set door in opening to check for any trimming or planing that might be necessary. Makes sense to do such before painting, no? She/you coulda asked.
You painted half the door
Yes. And that fact alone should point to my honesty. At the point in which the damage was noticed, I stopped working on it. Also, if she had cared a hair more than you, she also would have noticed that there was no primer within the crack. Kinda hard to paint a cracked door without getting any paint inside the crack...wouldn't you agree? Again....had she stopped to look at the door on her way to the register to tell the clerk she wasn't going to accept it, she mighta noticed such. Or....she could have ASKED why it was only half painted.
And NOW--- you want to return it?---- looking at it from Home Depot's standpoint----why on earth would they accept it back?????------ It's not like it was hidden damage inside a shrinkwrapped box.
No....it wasn't hidden at all. It didn't exist. How do I know HD keeps their doors in a humidity controlled enviroment? Is there a chance that the door was swollen with moisture at the time of purchase? Once within the confines of a well heated home, it dried? Possible? Likely in this scenario?
and---- even if I assume the door was PEREFECT when ya took it home--------- that was 2 and a half weeks ago----- who knows HOW it's been treated since then???
She had no clue how long ago I purchased the door. She never even looked at the receipt! Need hints as to the doors treatment? Look at the damn door! Aside from the defective crack in the door, it was in fine condition. And once more....if you want to know why its been two and a half weeks....ASK!
Also--------- judgeing a persons character by their willingness to look you in the eye is a pretty poor technique---- hardly infallible.
Did I say eye contact? I certainly didn't mean to intimate that was her only shortcoming. I said she didn't address me directly. Speaking while walking away. Comments to herself. Comments to the cashier. She didn't confront ME!
I'm sure Home Depot and Lowes and just about every other monster chain store has to contend with people attempting to return items for no good reasons. But this is why they have a returns department. To weed through those folks and find out who has legitimate gripes and who doesn't.
They had absolutely no reason to believe I wasn't being truthful. All this woman had was suspicions. Suspicions easily dispelled by looking at the facts. She had no time for the facts. Her mind was made up as she approached the register.
If you'd like....I'll gladly pass your resume along to the folks at HD. It's just a few blocks away.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
I'm with JDRHI on this one. why would it matter if he mortised the hinges, completely painted it,installed the lock set, hung the door, and goosed the home owner on the tush and THEN noticed the door was cracked? Its still cracked. Its a defect. Heck I'd bring it back if it cracked a six months later."The purpose of life is rapture. Here and now"
JD,
I am not gonna get drawn into a long drawn out thing here
but-------- if you read what I actually wrote---- you will probably calm down.
you will note that I went out of my way to say that I would hate to defend home depot---and that i love to bad mouth 'em as much as anybody--
but------ that imagining myself in Home Depots' shoes--- you are coming across as a little unreasonable
and---as I mentioned---if ya mentally walk around to the other side of the counter----and look at it from THEIR perspective---it's not quite as black and white as you are making it out----almost---but not quite
and---- you ARE the one who brought up Eye Contact. in fact your response to me--- I think maybe kind of illustrates my point. Look at the terminology you use " she didn't confront ME !"
excuse me---but why on earth should she "confront" you------- is there even the slightest chance that you are confrontational enough for BOTH of you ? LOL
you and I both run small businesses------ both of us KNOW that the customer is not always right--- but it's easy for us to " forget" that fact when we are the customer
Imagine the clerk at home depot working the return counter------almost every person they deal with that day is gonna have a bit of an attitude---some of the customers scamming---and some of them just fuming over the inconvenience of a trip BACK to home depot---some of them even a little bent out of shape because of a lot of work wasted morticing and painting a defective door---- but nobody happy
what's the best way to deal with a person like THAT---a person filling THAT job?
I bet the best way ------wasn't the way you dealt with me. LOL
you are having a bad day------- I bet EVERY work day is a bad day for that Home Depot clerk
I know one thing--- I am not gonna have a bad day.
Best wishes to you, Stephen
Stephen I think your missing a very important point here. If HD was my business,If it was my store.,the last thing I would want is for my employees to treat anyone like they MIGHT be scamming. I don't care how many people hammered on that counter person that day. If your a big business your going to have to deal with lots of people everyday, so you better have a counter person that can do that job right or else I can that persons butt faster than you can pop corn.
Case in point, in my northern michigan town we just had a HD that came in a took lots of business away from the local lumber yards. I didn't really care , the local places where contractor friendly but not homeowner friendly. HD came in a kicked butt. But after a couple years of being very busy you could tell it was getting messier, and harder to find a sales person let alone one that would talk with you. You'd be ok if you just could help yourself but god help ya if you need a question answered. People were getting pissed with HD.
Last year Lowes and Menards came into town and HD's business went down the toilet.
Update..a remodeled store, tons of sales staff and you cannot walk around with out every one of them telling you hello.
I think as a customer we should expect to be treated like a normal person and not a 'scammer'.
Shame on you."The purpose of life is rapture. Here and now"
There is a problem that various returned goods schemes are high on the list of favorite tactics used by assorted thieves. Stolen goods returned for refund, used goods returned in place of new, etc. So stores have to be relatively hard-nosed about it.But they could be hard-nosed courteously, and with an always-provided appeal process (that doesn't involve the guy who's "out this week").
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
Interesting to hear everyone's point of view on the subject.
I see two issues, maybe three here.
!. The store backing up the product.
They have to, especially this store with their vendor policies. No quibble.
2. Customer expectations. Something seems out of line here.
We're dealing with an experienced carpenter that supposedly knows doors, wood, etc. The manufacturer packages and seals the door with a plastic coating. We all know that we have to inspect materials bought at these big boxes - we've all been burnt on something or another from them.
But this door is being painted. So the frick what if a six inch crack developed after the seal was removed and the wood exposed to a different humidity. The experienced carpenter should expect that could occur and have a course of action to compensate for any cracking. Thats what they sell wood filler for. Any reasonably competent experienced carpenter should have been able to fix the crack in half the time it took to fight over the return.
We all do what we feel is right. If this would have been me, and it has been me, I would have been embarassed to return a half painted 6 panel door. Caulk and filler goes a long way at covering up what my mistake in the first place was for buying a choice item from a discount store.
Are you out of yur mind? Why would you buy anyting and be ok with the factthat it cracks. Even wood doors are not made or should we expect them to crack and have to fill them with wood putty. Thats the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard."The purpose of life is rapture. Here and now"
But this door is being painted. So the frick what if a six inch crack developed after the seal was removed and the wood exposed to a different humidity. The experienced carpenter should expect that could occur and have a course of action to compensate for any cracking. Thats what they sell wood filler for. Any reasonably competent experienced carpenter should have been able to fix the crack in half the time it took to fight over the return.
You either forgot the smiley icon at the end of this statement, or you're a hack "fill it and fug 'em" contractor.
I don't do business like this. No one with ethics does.
Beyond that, the six inch crack occured overnight, sitting atop a pair of sawhorses. Any half azzed carpenter realizes the likelihood of further damage once an unstable door was hung and in use. You enjoy return trips to putty new cracks that develop? Or are you one of those guys that just doesn't return phone calls once you've been paid?
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
I don't do business like this. No one with ethics does.
I'm not sure the folks who witnessed your "ethical" tirade agree.
My point is, that returning the item in the manner you did says more about you than the store hesitating about the return. If you read my post completely, you would have seen my statement about the store's return behaviors.
Ethics involves a system of behaviors considered acceptable by a society.
Let's go back to your description of when you were in line returning the door. Did you have a majority of people in line supprting your behaviors? AIRC, you described them as impatient (to say the least).
I'm sorry, but I can't find anything in this thread of yours that seems to accurately define, "ethics," or your behavior as "ethical."
As I said, I would be embarrassed to take back a half painted 6 panel door. Whom would ever PAINT a 6 panel, when one can get a molded unit (looking the same after the painting) that would never crack, be less expensive, and more appropriate for the job?
Do flooring guys get on their suppliers azz when they lay oak floors before letting the wood acclaimate to the enviroment (by letting it sit for 2 weeks in the home)? They know better. So should an experienced carpenter buying a door from HD.
Your soreness over this issue MUST be something else other than this door.
"or you're a hack "fill it and fug 'em" contractor"
Nope. I 'm the one making the monetary decisions. Should I have a carp that takes his productive time and spends it screaming at store clerks for things, I know he's not doing craftsmenship on my job. Why do I want to employ him any longer? He's wasting my money quibbling over issues that could have been easily avoided by the selection of proper materials and proper distributors in the first place.
The issue is not the box's return methods, the issue is getting those doors installed for the homeowners within a time frame that is profitable for you. Select the proper doors from the proper outlet and you would have been on the next job with the hottie next to the pool a lot faster.
We make our own beds...
I know I should just let JD hit you over the head but I got to tell you i don't think that I ever have laughed so loud at a post than yours suggesting that "Whom would ever PAINT a 6 panel, when one can get a molded unit (looking the same after the painting) that would never crack, be less expensive, and more appropriate for the job?"If you ever came into my home and tried to pawn off a "moulded " door as a wood door it would take me maybe....2 seconds... to kick your dumb #### out the door onto the sidwwalk."The purpose of life is rapture. Here and now"
I'm getting a kick out of how he's attempting to question my carpentry abilities while bragging about puttying cracked doors and suggesting hollow core doors are more "apropriate".
Guys like him make it harder on honest contractors.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
Wah, wah, wah.
Painting a 6 panel door is of lower class than a moulded door. Both scream, "CHEEP!"
So tell me, what happens when one goes and paints said panel door, assuming it is not cracked?
What happens in 6 months when the seasons change, and that panel now shows unpainted strips along where the panels insert into the rails?
Do you fantastically ethical carpenters come back and strip and repaint the darn thing or do you blame the store?
That cheep moulded door doesn't come with call backs.
But to agree with the moulded issue. Of course it's trash. One would never be in my home. And neither would a painted 6 panel.
A 6 panel is close to one of the most beautiful works of wooden art available. They should be stained.
Lets hear from a real painter or truely compentent builder on the issue.
If the HO HAS to have painted trim, does one paint a 6 panel for best results or does one go towards a moulded unit, considering the advances in manufacturing moulded doors? And understanding that there are differences in moulded doors.
And do real contractors buy their materials at HD? And do real contractors have carps do the painting?
I never seem to see those fancy HD delivery trucks going into the high net worth 'hoods. Why is that?
Maybe cause they know what they're doing?
Call me what you will. Actions speak louder than words. You go into a store and act like a fool and then come here to look for support cause no one else agrees with you? Now you're trying to bring this whole forum down to your level.
Accept the responsibility for your own mistakes. That's where real ethics lie.
I have to disagree with your painting comments. Pine and fir are paint candidates. Step into any large older home with great woodwork and you will find that pine and fir are painted. A few "wanna be's' will have stained some old fir or hemlock in an attempt to pass but it never does. Cheap is staining either of those to try and hide the fact that one is too cheap to find some nice 2-300 year old 18-30" walnut or chestnut and only cover them with a protective finish, for the budget minded there is still plenty of 100 year old European oak that will work in a pinch. Now buying ANYTHING at a big box and expecting quality or service is a time to think of changing medications or getting extra free samples of KY to ease the pain.
Pine and fir are paint candidates. Step into any large older home with great woodwork and you will find that pine and fir are painted. A few "wanna be's' will have stained some old fir or hemlock in an attempt to pass but it never does.
Cheap is staining either of those to try and hide the fact ...
We are in agreement. Although personally I go for those older ones with the stained old growth hardwoods. There true craftsmanship can be displayed.
My point relates to the 6 panel. Wood goes in different directions. IF one needs painted 6 panels and claims quality, one does not expect to acquire this material at Home Desperate. There are other materials that do the job better at a lower cost.
Painting a 6 panel door is of lower class than a moulded door. Both scream, "CHEEP!"
Absolute nonesense. There is nothing "cheaper" than a hollow core door. Painted, stained, or otherwise. Somehow you've convinced yourself that unless something is stained, it is somehow inferior. The issue isn't paint or stain...the issue is the quality of the product to begin with. Wouldn't we all love to live in a world where all doors were made of solid, old growth, stain grade, material? That's not possible. My job is to provide the best product the customer can afford. If that's a paint grade solid door, than so be it. Suggesting a hollow door is a better product because it is going to be painted is ludicrous.
So tell me, what happens when one goes and paints said panel door, assuming it is not cracked?
What happens in 6 months when the seasons change, and that panel now shows unpainted strips along where the panels insert into the rails?
Do you fantastically ethical carpenters come back and strip and repaint the darn thing or do you blame the store?
Yes. I honor my warranty and return to repaint the door. Typically, my practices prevent such from occuring. But on the odd occasions when it has occured, I've gone back.
And do real contractors buy their materials at HD?
On occassion, when the my local lumber yard doesn't stock a specific item that I need yesterday....yes. We do.
And do real contractors have carps do the painting?
I'm a small business. Depending on the project, I work alone or with up to a three man crew. I'm a carpenter by trade, but having been in renovation for the past twenty some odd years I've learned that you'd better be prepared to do more than just bang nails. This was one door, on a project that needed to be installed before the holidays as a part of a change order. I'm not afraid to pick up a paint brush in order to accomodate a client.
I never seem to see those fancy HD delivery trucks going into the high net worth 'hoods. Why is that?
I have a hard time believing that anyone who would even consider puttying a brand new door spends too much time in those neighborhoods.
Call me what you will.
OK...yer a fill it and fug 'em hack.
Actions speak louder than words.
Yes...they do.
You go into a store and act like a fool and then come here to look for support cause no one else agrees with you? Now you're trying to bring this whole forum down to your level.
No one else agrees with me? Lessee, everyone other than Stephen agreed with me....including yourself. 'Cept, you woulda been to embarrassed to bring it back. If you call being loud a demanding when being ignored acting like a fool, then I suupose I'm guilty as charged. I wont be ignoring the repeated phone calls of an unsatisfied client however.
Sleep well puttyshlagor.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
If you read my post completely, you would have seen my statement about the store's return behaviors.
I read your post in its entirety. There was one sentence in regards to the stores return policy followed by two paragraphs of questioning my carpentry abilities.
Let's go back to your description of when you were in line returning the door. Did you have a majority of people in line supprting your behaviors? AIRC, you described them as impatient (to say the least).
I'd love for you to do just that. You'll have to be quite creative, as I never mentioned anything about anyone on a return line. IIRC, there was one gentleman being attended to by the cashier, while I was dealing with the manager of the door dept.
As I said, I would be embarrassed to take back a half painted 6 panel door. Whom would ever PAINT a 6 panel, when one can get a molded unit (looking the same after the painting) that would never crack, be less expensive, and more appropriate for the job?
Embarrased to return a defective item...yet, no problem with hiding the defect and passing it off to the customer as quality work? (And then bragging about such practices on a building forum.)
We could debate the pros and cons of hollow vs. solid doors till the cows come home. I doubt we'd come to an agreement on quality considering your "carpentry" practices.
Do flooring guys get on their suppliers azz when they lay oak floors before letting the wood acclaimate to the enviroment (by letting it sit for 2 weeks in the home)? They know better. So should an experienced carpenter buying a door from HD.
Your analogy would be more on point if the flooring was splitting before installation. Would you return that? Or just use your putty skills during installation?
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
Nope. I 'm the one making the monetary decisions. Should I have a carp that takes his productive time and spends it screaming at store clerks for things, I know he's not doing craftsmenship on my job. Why do I want to employ him any longer?
Maybe because he's a bit more concerned with quality work than turning a dime. I may never be rich doing this for a living, but I certainly sleep well at night.
He's wasting my money quibbling over issues that could have been easily avoided by the selection of proper materials and proper distributors in the first place.
I've worked with these doors numerous times in the past. This was the first problem I've ever had with them.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
I know you and I have not always seen things eye to eye but I think we can pretty much agree(after reading peterpans last post) that his name can be added to the koo-koo list."The purpose of life is rapture. Here and now"
Intersting discussion - I just spent a year and a half as a millwork supervisor in a very busy HD - my background is corporate management, manufacturing and woodworking.
I learned very quickly to not trust the public - I continuously found wrappers from batteries, hand tools etc. thrown under lumber by thieves. I saw more fights between customers in my 15 months than the 7 years as a wood shop instructor in a high school. I had numerous instances of moulding being stained and then returned becasue didn't like the grain effect. Stanley mirror doors were being returned all the time broken - we unloaded those door and inspected every set - we never stocked damaged product yet our customers seemed to have a lot of broken glass.
Much of the product carried in the lumber, building materials and millwork departments is considered commodities. The slab doors are all low end product - made by Masonite (Reliabilt at Lowes is Masonite) - the largest door manufacturer in the world - and they are mass produced just like asphalt, DIY hardware, and some power tools. I've seen folks go through a whole skid of slab doors looking for one without any marks on the primed surface. They think the door should have a perfect paint surface and nothing else needs to be done.
HD does have access to good doors - Simpson being one - and a previous post relates that the rep made good on a defect. Commodity product should have reasonable quality - your problem should have been handled promptly but I can bet the farm that the HD where you had the problem has serious problems with some and I repeat some of their customers (a long return line is a red flag).
HD has its problems - contrary to what has been said, they are paid well, have good benefits - but the two biggest gripes are the hours (would you want to open a store on Easter Sunday at 8AM?) and that 5% of the customer base that can ruin your day.
And the biggest problem with HD and Lowes in my area (mid-Atlantic) is everyone wants a white collar job in Washingotn - no one wants to work in retail and of course, let their kids know they have "failed" if they work at HD. Yet you need intellegent, knowledgable, customer friendly people to staff the stores. Good luck - my replacement is a delightful young man but has never hung a window, mortised a door for hinges, installed a patio or french door. He has never coped a joint (perish the thought that someone would cope joints today!), hung chair rail, installed a mortise lock (remember those!) or made a new screen for a window. But he's the best they have for the department.
I don't regret my experience at HD - but I do recognize it is a home center first - so I still frequent my local yards (we have a few left) - and when I need a commodity (sheet rock, some - repeat some framing items, etc.) I'll go to HD.
Thanks for the insight. Always appreciate an insiders view.
As I mentioned in a post I was typing at the same time you were posting yours, Masonite is one of the "biggies" in these parts. Carried by HD as well as my local yards. HD charges about $10 less per door I suppose. I chalk that up to the quantity they purchase as opposed to the quality of the product.
I purchased this one at HD for the convenience. My local guy can get me one in a day or two. Three days more than I had for this particular project.
Higher end client would have paid more for a better door. But this is where HD fills its niche. Not everyone can afford the best of the best.
I'll continue to deal with HD in the exact manner you've suggested...heck...after having it out with the manager, I walked over to the Durock stack and purchased a dozen sheets. (I'm sure someone will try and convince me I'm an idiot for buying cement backer board at HD.)
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
Glad to see you know the positive and negatives about HD - and Lowes for that matter. There are some decent folks in the stores - try to get to know some of them. I always made an effort to know the builders so if I got an item that they would be interested in, I'd call them. We periodically had damaged french and patio doors - most of the time it was some split casing or a chunk of frame cracked - something that could be repaired in short order. I had considerable flexibility with price on that product - particularly after it had been there for a few weeks - "green tag" items. And around physical inventory time - before and after - you can get some real bargins.
Another post under this thread said HD can send defective product back to the vendor (caled RTV - Return to Vendor). Unfortunately, many vendors have a policy of take exception at time of delivery to HD or its yours. I suspect vendor pricing has some defective product built-in. That is the case with Masonite commodity doors - their custom/special order is a different story.
Good luck with you projects!
The current pay at HD isn't so great.
In my area, full time employees average around $9 an hour, construction or trade experience does not bring much (if any) of a premium anymore.
Part timers get less.
Department heads hover around a dollar more than the current going rate. Yes, there are exceptions.
In return, you are expected to be available 24/7/363. Time off requests must be made a minimum of 3 weeks in advance, yet they can change your schedule at will. Whole months in spring and at Christmas are vacation blackout. You will be lucky to have more than one employee in the department at any given time during the week.
Yes, benefits are available, but they are expensive (which means that they must not pay enough). Every time providers change, employee costs go up and the benefits received go down.
Employees hired before the current CEO are often (but not always) paid much more. Corporate would not mind if those higher paid folks left for good.
They are following the WalMart model- work em hard, pay em less.... We just outsourced a whole bunch of jobs, so there's plenty of fresh meat.
Not my experience at all - most the the folks, particularly in the specialty areas getting more in the $14 - 16 range in my area. Basic problem for HD is management - rquirement for store manager is GED - in today's world running a big box store making 40/60M per year or more, you need solid, experienced managers. I suspect the incompetence (and that's what it is) goes beyond your store manager to the district manager min. Corporate recognizes they have lost control in the field - that's why there are so many check sheets, reports, etc. Trying to reign in 1900+ wayward managers is difficult (not all are poor but there seem to be a fair number from what I saw). The store, its people and its attitude are directly reflected through the manager and his district manager.
artman--------
I haven't missed the point you are trying to make at all-----it's a fair one---but not realistic to me
I recognize Home Depot, Lowes etc. for what they are---- a glorified wall mart
I know that when I buy something from Home Depot it is going to be of lower quality than elswhere, probably lower priced than elswhere, the staff will be less knowledgeable than elsewhere--- I could go on and on-------We ALL know what Home Depot is
so--- I would only buy something from home depot where that poor quality, poor service, unknowledgeable sales staff etc---can't possibly matter----- a quick tube of caulk----nails, screws, a bucket of mud---whatever.
JD bought a door of poor quality with a defect, at a low price, and when he tried to return it the store gave him some Krap
big suprise--- that's EXACTLY what I would expect from Home Depot------and ,frankly, I am amazed that anyone would expect anything different
Now---item number 2------- at what time does a door become "yours"---that is--un-returnable ?
well--as a practical matter---once you cut it or paint it--- I think it's yours. Period.
If JD had tried to return an uncut, un painted door---and they gave him grief--- well I would feel his gripe had merit( but I would STILL expect poor customer service from Home Depot LOL)---- I just think it is unreasonable to even TRY to return a cut, half painted door---for ANY reason----especially 3 weeks AFTER the purchase.
Item number 3------ Pete slagor mentioned that JD is likely sore about something ELSE---that here must be more to this story
speaking for myself----- i know I get the MOST upset when I do something I knew better than to do( did I phrase that right?)----- when a shortcut doesn't work out---when a material or technique fails---and I knew better than to try it in the first place---when I make the same mistake that I have made before
If I was in JD's shoes----what would MOST pizz me off---is that I would KNOW I shouldn't have bought a door from Home depot---and I would KNOW I should have checked it every way before I cut it or painted it----and if It split AFTER I painted it or cut it--- I would be kickingmyself that it hadn't happened BEFORE I modified it---'cause ther is just no way I could overcome the embarrasment to even Attemptto return a cut, half painted door---------- and I would expect to be treated EXACTLY as JD WAS treated---EXACTLY.
but artman---- I don't think the real issue is weather Home Depot --or any business should treat customers differently
I think the real issue is " how do I get what I want?"---------- Lets say as a consumer I want to return something---(a door , for example LOL)-------- what's the best way to approach that chore
well---a lot of people think" the squeaky wheel gets the grease"---and they will cause a big scene--make a big stink and commotion figuring the business will cave---just to get 'em out of the door. I notice in my business that---that technique doesn't work all that well with me.---- Sure-- I am gonna honor my commitments---- but a screamer puts me into a passive aggresive methodolgy where I will get to it, when I get to it---and my commitment is only gonna be honored to exactly the previously agreed terms
the people I go WAAAAY out of my way to help, and Waaaay out of my way to honor a warranty for--- have a different approach---" stephen--- I am sooo sorry to bother you--- I think we have a problem--- can you check this out for us?---------"
THOSE people get a much different level of service than the !@#$%^&* folks screaming and blaming------
A few months ago , my 16 year old son wanted to start driving---so we went to get his learners permit(temps)------- at the BMV---- clerk mentioned that Andrews' name was mispelled on his Social Security Card( Amdrew)---- he could get his Temps---but we had better correct his card with SS
Of Course----- I didn't mispell his name---but I should have caught THEIR mistake a long time ago----over a decade ago when I first got the SS card for him
So--- I wait untill last Week when Andrew is gonna be home for Xmas vacation
Aaaand--we go down to do battle with SS
As we approach the imposing FEDERAL BUILDING ( cue echo,echo,echo)--- i explain a few things to andrew about government workers------- how they can widely--and perhaps erroniously be viewed as parasites, lower life forms, lazy, stupid--whatever. THEY know some people see them that way---and a lot of people approach em with impatience, hostility, accusatory behavior---whatever.
I also explain---that if THEY want to they can make a lot of problems vanish---OR they can lose your paperwork for a decade------
so--I explain that perhaps a different game plan is in order------- from us--smiles, apologies, " how can I fix this problem", I know it's my fault --I should have taken care of this YEARS ago" etc.------well it worked better than I EVER dreamed---we were in an out in LESS than 5 minutes---problem solved.
Perhaps I am wrong----but that's the way I would have approached Home Depot
in fact---that's the way I handled returning a leaf blower to home depot 3 months ago------also in and out with a new leaf blower in a few minutes
Best wishes, Stephen
Much better worded than my response.
For the record. The door purchased is manufactured by Masonite. A rather large door manufacturer in these parts. Same brand and make I get if I go to any of my local lumberyards. I've bought them for years from a variety of sources. While I don't think everything at HD is the best quality, I've no reason to believe that the Masonite brand, six panel, solid wood doors that they stock are of any less quality than the ones my lumberyard sells. (If you have evidence that contradicts, I'd be most interested in hearing about it.)
That aside, you seemed able to come up with a reason for not accepting the door in response to artman, which you were unwilling to do for me. Once cut or painted, it can't be returned? Fine. So long as thats an existing policy, I'll accept it and move on.
It wasn't an existing policy...it was barely a reason the manager stated as not wanting to take it back. Had she in fact presented such information, I would have quietly and calmly taken my complaint directly to Masonite.
I was irate over the treatment I was receiving from this individual. Not about store policies.
I'm a very easy going guy Stephen. Usually takes alot for me to get upset. If I feel someones trying to screw me, that timeframe shortens dramatically.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
I think your premise is totally flawed. Personally I think HD is a step way above say a Menards.
HD six panel fingerjoined pine doors are no different than you are going to be able to buy from any other lumber yard. And it is totally, completely irrefutable to not to expect that door to be wood defect free 2 days ,3 weeks, 6 months down the road. A door is not a piece of glass, a piece of PVC drain pipe that you happened to paint and decided its the wrong lenght. Its a freaking wood door for gods sake that any normal person would return if it developed a crack. Under your lame theory if JD bought the door on tuesday,painted it on weds, hung it on thursday and it developed a defect crack on Friday he should eat that? Thats completely ridiculous.
I can't believe this thread is lasting this long. Whats wrong with you people?"The purpose of life is rapture. Here and now"
artman--------
I don't have the slightest idea what a Menards is---so I can't comment.
however------ if i purchased something which turned out to be unsatisfactory at Home Depot--------and I tried to return it with a chip on my shoulder( no matter how understandable that 'tude might be)------ I would expect to be treated pretty much the way JD was. I wouldn't particularly like it----- but Home Depot IS what home Depot is
on the other hand--- if I bought a door from my regular lumberyard-( the same one my dad---and my grand dad used 50-60 years ago)---and had a problem with it------ i have every confidence that David would take care of the situation for me-----
David--- who I always deal with and who knows me by name,and who handles special orders flawlessly for me( so far--knock on wood)-- of course-- I wouldn't cut a door and expect to be able to return it---and I wouldn't paint a door and expect to be able to reurn it----and I have Zero Idea what my lumberyards policiy is regaurding that---'cause I ain't gonna do it regaurdless
and----- I assure you--- the doors I buy from David---are NOT the same door I would be likely to get from Home Depot-------- that's part of WHY I buy 'em from David
I Absolutely do NOT want to EVER supply to my customer a door,a window, a shingle, a brand of paint----pretty much any major item that they can price out and compare at Home Depot
in the interest of accuracy--- I will probably buy less than 20 doors this year from David, I will also buy some redwood siding, I will buy some moulding that only his yard( the oldest around) can supply---when I needed a 6 ft. piece of novelty log cabin siding---David told me where to find it--- this week when I needed some 1/4 sawn white oak----david only had redoak----but told me where to find the white oak
My roofing supplier( another Dave--BTW)----- treats me the same way-- I am by NO means either of these guys biggest accounts. I am nothing special
However---both Daves treat me EXACTLY the way I expect to be treated-------and Home Depot treats me EXACTLY the way I expect Home Depot to treat me-------- I don't EXPECT anything resembling the same treatment at each place
and--- I am certainly not perfect--- but all in all---I am pretty happy
so----how is my premise flawed again????? ( that's---what's the word--a rethorical question? don't stress yourself replying)
But------ a customer treated kind of poorly at Home Depot???? how could a thread like THIS get THIS many replies---how could ANYBODY be suprised?
and--- JD getting treated a little shabbily---certainly isn't worth ME getting in an argument over it.
Best wishes---and good Luck with your menards, whatever that is---maybe a little ointment will clear it up LOL,
Stephen
I think Menards is a regional HD like store in the midwest, Ohio, Michigan, Wisconsin.
Bla bla bla bla bla...I have no interest whats so ever in your history or how great your friend david is. Who cares? My only point...which for some very very odd reason you seem unwilling to conceed is that if you buy something...that is defective..or becomes defective with in a reasonable amount of time you should be able to return it. Period.I have no idea why that is such a hard concept for you to understand."The purpose of life is rapture. Here and now"
Bla bla bla bla bla...I have no interest whats so ever in your history or how great your friend david is. Who cares? My only point...which for some very very odd reason you seem unwilling to conceed is that if you buy something...that is defective..or becomes defective with in a reasonable amount of time you should be able to return it. The point being that why should you ever have to take something back??? I've never in my life taken anything back. If something I have isn't right I call my David equivalent and THEY come and solve the problem. I paid for a product and it's use and if it doesn't hold up why do I need to be driving around and standing in lines? A bad door is picked up and the replacement carried into the room it belongs.
A bad door is picked up and the replacement carried into the room it belongs.
If that's standard customer service in Va, I am packing up and moving south. I so envy you.
"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." Invictus, by Henley.
artman------ If I understood things the same way as you----likely I would also be as bitter, unhappy and rude as you.
BTW--- I suspect that by my definition----- " reasonable time" ends the moment I cut a door or paint it.
also BTW------ why is it so important that I agree with you?----operating your way is almost certain to get me worse customer service
Best wishes to you anyway,
Stephen
>" BTW--- I suspect that by my definition----- " reasonable time" ends the moment I cut a door or paint it."So under that logic if I buy a new suit and wear it for two weeks and the sleeve falls off the jacket I should not be able to bring it back to the store for another one? Should car dealers have to honor a new car warrenty after two weeks? Why? Not under your thinking. If I buy a Christmas turkey a week early and the date is good but when I go to cook it its bad,I should just eat it?
Very funny world you live in."The purpose of life is rapture. Here and now"
Artman,
you are getting angrier and angrier---to what avail?--- LOL
BTW----did you cut the suit--or paint it? LOL
did you wreck the car?
did you buy them both from the nameless " borg"---known for it's poor customer service and unknowledgeable help ? LOL
or--did you buy from "Dave"---somebody you have done business with for years----and intend to do business with---someone who cares about a reputation for QUALITY goods and service
Generally---we get what we pay for----------- Home Depot etc. sells largely on price------------ they are in general never gonna meet " Daves " level of quality product and service--------- and since we all know that before we enter a Home Depot----------
why would we get angry ?--- we are at Home Depot for price and convenience--not quality and service
Nah---- instead I will just continue to buy from Dave----- who provides me with quality goods and service---who charges me a fair price---certainly a bit more than Home Depot---- but then again--- I am getting what I pay for.
Very Best Wishes to you,
Stephen
Here is an example of a team that took the generous return policy to an extreme. They ripped HD and Lowes of $200,000 and resold it on ebay.
http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/gan/press/03-24-05.html
I don't get the part about swapping UPCs.
Swapping UPCs means taking the price off on item and putting it on another one. Take the scan code off the pine door that's 89.00 and put it on the mahogany door in a frame that's 250.00. Pay 89, get out the door, return it without the scan UPC at the next Depot down the street, get a return card for $250. The difference is profit - until you get caught.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Construction
That is an old trick on boxed merchandice.An article in the paper just before Christmas about people printing up their own UPC's codes. I think that they where hiting Target with that one.The other day I was at Lowes looking at a plumbing fitting. It was a machined brass fitting and had several parts. It was marked 92 cents.Similar items, based on mass and complexity where $3-4. So I had it verify at the checkout counter and they said that the shelf tag was "right".I am sure that it was a mix up. But I could see how easy it would be to put on fake labels and how few checkout clerks would know the difference.
Now your changing the subject. Maybe try staying on topic. Oh..but that would mean having to say your wrong wouldn't it."The purpose of life is rapture. Here and now"
Steve,
Thanks for your support.
The issue we've been trying to get across obviously is not.
I believe it's because this is a character issue. Character is learned early at home. These guys have been quite clear in describing theirs.
Let's just file this under, "OOOKAYYY..." and let them be.
Your postings and wordsmithmanship impress me. That's how respect is born.
I'll bet another thing, character develops business skills. I'll bet your business is far more successful than these other guys looking for some else to underwrite their mistakes.
This is the weirdest thread I've seen here. A customer relates a story about returning a defective item to a store and you two knuckle heads try to make up some crazy logic about why the customer shouldn't be allowed to.
(scratching my head....)
Were you guys brownines?"The purpose of life is rapture. Here and now"
Pete,
I believe I am a reasonable person.
As a reasonable person--- I generally try to operate with the premise that I am unlikely to recieve low price, convenience,high quality merchandise and excellent service---all from the same source.
I value quality and service over price and convenience----and buy and sell accordingly with those goals in mind.( knowing that it is often less expensive that way in the long run)
If someone else values other attributes differently--- let's say prefering low price and convenience----well---that's their choice---and it comes with trade-offs( service and quality)
I think I have quite consistently stated that here.
I think most reasonable people proceed the same way----and if that's "wrong"---well I will just have to prefer being wrong--- and continue buying and selling good products and services at fair prices.
the alternative---as demonstrated by others---seems to lead to anger and distortions--- not appealing at all. LOL
Best wishes, Stephen
Stephen....I fully understand why you wouldn't expect Home Depot to accept a door after its been cut or painted.
we are at Home Depot for price and convenience--not quality and service
I got it.....I'm not trying to be confrontational on this point. I may not agree with you as to why, but I do understand your reasoning.
What I am trying to understand, and what was the entire point of this thread....(Notice the title...Window/Doors)...is what do most folks believe is reasonable.
Obviously you don't think its reasonable to expect HD to accept a door under such conditions.
Would you expect Dave to accept the return of a door under the same circumstances?
My point, is that certain products cannnot be gauged for quality until after they are installed and in use. A prehung door......a window.
You've avoided several of my most recent questions....yet continue on with artman.
(I'm begining to develop a complex, LOL)
I'm asking only to understand you better....not as an attack for your disagreeing with me. (I'll save that for peteyboy)
All the best.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
JD,
I would not attempt to return a door to David that I had cut or painted---- I believe that would be unreasonable
however--- I have complete and entire confidence that David would accept that door for return---at any reasonable time---right up untill I cut it or painted it. A day-aweek-a month---reasonable-------- a year---5 years---- not reasonable.
Basically--- once I cut it--- I own it. " Pottery Barn Rule" LOL
now---- if someone "theoretically" were to try to return a door they had morticed and painted to Home Depot----well I would absolutely expect them to get the sort of treatment you feel you recieved. right or wrong doesn't enter into it---- it's just what I would expect from an operation like Home Depot.
Knowing that that is the likely treatment from Home Depot under those circumstances------- I would try a much different approach than the "squeaky wheel gets the grease" technique that is human nature
right or wrong doesn't enter into----- If I want to return the door---- I want to do it with the minimum of fuss and bother------- like my trip to the social security office.
I absolutely agree you got less than desirable treatment from Home Depot--- but thats what I EXPECT from Home Depot LOL.
As a secondary issue---- i didn't want to get involved in a long drawn out thing---------as I believed you went out of your way to be kind of snotty and insulting--and in your obvious state of mind at that time---you weren't fully able to be reasonable-------- understandably---you were in the RANT mode( been there ,done that LOL)
However--- NOW I think you have re-read what I actually said, you have understandably calmed down, and I think you see that i wasn't really all that far away from your position---- in essence I was saying " what did you expect--- it's Home Depot man--- that's how they operate"
reasonable people can disagree-- because we are all gonna value things differently
you and I might approach things differently---that doen't make either of us wrong by definition------- I just don't think either of us should be suprised by low level service at Home Depot-------- we both know better.
Very best to you,
Stephen
I realize I was less than polite in my original post to you. For that, I apologize. You're right in that my frame of mind at the time likely played a role....but, as I said...you were treating me in the exact manner as the manager at HD.
I don't expect everyone on this board to see things the way I do....and to be honest....that's often the reason I start a thread. To get those conflicting views, and help understand the way others see things that perhaps I miss. (Believe it or not...I've learned much in many of the seemingly senseless debates in the Tavern.)
I accept we disagree.....I appreciate your honesty....I suppose I just didn't appreciate the manner in which it was offered. But again....my apologies.
We'll have to agree to disagree on this point.
Just don't come cryin' to me should you ever have to return a defective door. ; )
Have a great weekend!
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
Edited 1/7/2006 6:57 pm ET by JDRHI
JD,
" you are right in that my frame of mind at the time played a role, but as I said----you were treating me in the exact manner as the manager at Home Depot"
Bing,Bing,Bing,Bing,Bing,Bing,Bing,Bing,Bing !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Congratualtions JD--------- a light bulb should be flashing above your head right now LOL. !!!
I am happy for you---- because I wish that I had learned to put that lesson into practice at age 5 instead of a few years ago at age 35 or so LOL( too late to0 smart)
OUR appraoch to a situation will ,in part , determine how we are recieved---and how the matter will be resolved.
"the squeaky wheel gets the grease"----is natural and instinctive---we all have tried it--------
but it's not that well thought out---nor have I ever found it to be particularly effective in practice.
I have noticed that when OTHERS try that approach with me---- I go into a passive/aggressive attitude. Eventually ---if applicable--- I will honor my contractual obligations--- but I am not going to leap immediately into action-----and in the meantime--- I hold all the cards---- the" squeaky wheel" has---at that point signaled their "powerlessness" and has no recourse other than to shout longer and louder working themselves into a frenzy---------
and at THAT point---"right" and "wrong" has largely become irrelevant
You( the consumer)--- might concievably be "right"--- but to a neutral observer-------( folks behind you in line, passers by, anybody who can read the company name on your work shirt etc.)---- the more irate you( or I) become---the more visibly irrational our behavior becomes---the more irrational ( and "wrong" or respective position will be assumed to be by any observer.
If you want to return the door
do you want to be "right"---and risk NOT being able to return the door because ya pizzed somebody off and they dug in their heels?
or---do you want to return the door---and give a low level Home Depot employee a chance to demonstrate that "they " aren't without power--that " they" have the ability to make judgement calls and exercise discretion. the lower level the employee--- the more they often WANT to demonstrate that it is within their power to help you out. You want them to WANT to help you----especially if you are dealing with a grey area that could be interpreted several different ways
insult'em, embarrass 'em---and they have no incentive to help you out-------- But---they can securely go into a passive aggressive mode and enjoy the fun of watching the consumer pop a blood vessel ( LOL)
several years ago-- I noticed this
and so I thought back over EVERY sizable professional dispute I could remember.
In 18 or 20 years--- maybe 5 or 6.
I noticed that even though I was "right"---in ALL of those cases there were things I could have handled differently and better-------and in EVERY case there were SEVERAL chances where I could have chosen to do things differently----and achieved a more satisfactory result in the dispute.-----
so I try to keep that in mind now---because I noticed that the more INTENTIONALLY calm I keep myself-------- the better results I seem to get and the easier everything becomes---regaurdless of right or wrong.
Of course---human nature being what it is-- I still fly off the handle from time to time--- but usually I am able to warn myself ahead of time( before the encounter)
Once again---best wishes to you,
Stephen
Amazing. Truely amazing.
This isn't even my post and I'm amazed.Now we get a whole other lecture from Hazlett about how calm and cool he can keep himself.
I know people like these guys. These are the ones you really have to look out for. They're like a double head snake."The purpose of life is rapture. Here and now"
Actually artman,
the "lecture" was about " getting what you want"---regaurdless of weather you are right or wrong----and it's been consistent in this thread
and also about letting others learn from My mistakes.
i am not really certain what your problem is Artman---but that's ok 'cause its YOUR problem, not mine LOL
you can follow me around all you want---but you are going to need to poke me with a MUCH bigger stick than you can lift if you want to rile me.
Best of luck with that " rapture" aspiration----
Stephen
Oh pleeezzzzzeee..Lets count how many chest puffing posts you and JD got into shall we? And you say you don't get riled?Your lecture was about manipulateing people. PLaying games to get what you want istead of being a real person.PLus your whole argument against how bad HD is doesn't make any sense. They took the door back. They have a policys to take defective stuff back. They took the door back. The problem was some misinformed employee with poor people skills. As a professional ,who has time to game play with a peon to get what one wants? Just go to the source of power, the manager and be done with it.
Instead you have this little mind game you like to play on people.
"The purpose of life is rapture. Here and now"
Keep those suppliers as long as you can. I lost an old yard here 2 yrs ago. They can't be replaced.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
calvin---- I am not certain weather they can or can not be replaced
I am pretty sure it would be much harder( to replace) with a lumber yard----- best to save 'em and not HAVE to replace 'em. this one carries less Big Box type nuts and bolts than it did 20 years ago( no great loss)----but it still has the millwork shop, still stocks a lot of comparitively oddball stuff---and I am quite happy,personally with the service------- of course I pick EVERYTHING up myself---and they let me sort and pick my own stock.--------
roofing suppliers are easier to replace. I dealt with one for 20 years that I greatly respected----- but over the last 3 years or so--- I dealt with 'em less and less as the service has slowly dropped off-------- co-incidentally--- my number one roofing supplier NOW is the one my Grandpa also used( he died owing 'em a good bit of money my dad says)---- they have actually been bought out by a cleveland Company----and much to my suprise----the service is better than ever-- the variety of stock has increased----and it is much better than my previous favorite all around.
BTW----looks like my oldest might be headed to Ohio Northern U.( go polar bears!) Keeping my fingers crossed
We are gonna be out there again next weekend( our third trip)--------Looks likeabout 4or 5 of our young friends will be headed to Toledo---- one in Pharmacy---another in Physical Therapy and I don't know exactly what all else.
good luck to you,
Stephen
Thanks stephen, good luck to you also. Tell the friends to call if they run afoul of the law. I'll get 'em out, teach em a couple things and send em home. Anything for Akron.
Go polar bears!A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
I don't desire a long drawn out debate on the instance either.
What I would appreciate is a legitimate reason for not accepting the return of a defective product.
The dept. manager couldn't come up with one....can you?
What other items do you purchase and not expect to be able to return should you find out afterwards it was defective?
And yes...I do become extremely confrontational when someone is treating me as though I'm not there, and even if I were, I wasn't worth their time and attention.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
Interesting. My HD door story worked out well, probably because HD had nothing to do with the outcome. Some friends wanted a FG 9-lite exterior door replaced. They picked up a Therma-Tru from HD (after waiting 3 weeks). I installed it, but noticed the head didn't close tight to the gasket. Put a 72" level on the lock side stile, the bow was about 3/16" over the entire length. Friends weren't happy, called HD, they said they couldn't do anything unless we brought back the whole enchilada. Friends called Brosco, the distributor. They called me, we all met and threw (my) level on the door, after which Brosco said a new door slab would be waiting at the same HD in about a weeks time. I asked who was going to pay for the time to install the new slab, but they declined. I installed gratis for the friend.
Guess sometimes it pays to circumvent the big box, if possible.
Were I in shoes, however, I have to be honest and tell you I would still be the owner of a half primed and split door. I don't think I could have taken it that far. Glad it worked out for you, though.
"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." Invictus, by Henley.
Customer service in retail is always a tension between providing good service to the good customers and staving off jerk customers. The department manager had obviously been rewarded for, either at Home Despot or in a prior job, emphasizing the latter over the former.
It's kind of like cops: you wind up putting in so much energy on the few bad apples that you start to think the world is composed of bad apples. Good management in a setting like that is about 40% fighting that tendency in your employees.
Jerkoffs like you are one reason for such crappy service. I can't tell you how many times I have heard variations on the "Do you know how much money I spend here..." theme. You became just another ahole at this instant: "I immediately made my presence known and demanded a reason"... "or [the manager] had already heard me loud and clear across the store."
The employee helping you just responded in kind: "In an extremely rude and accusatory manner, she attempted to put some sort of blame on me. Didn't ask for details, just stubbornly insisted she wasn't accepting it."
You would have been better off to politely insist on speaking with the store manager when your return was turned down. She was doing her job- you were an ahole.
It is policy not to accept painted, stained, mixed or cut returns at all.
Those returns cashiers are the hardest working people in the whole store. They are also some of the lowest paid people there. In return, they have to know something about everything in the whole store to try and outsmart all the other thieves- er, customers. You know, the ones that return a 9'-6" piece of copper pipe, or a gallon of water (paint), new boxes with old parts, new boxes with missing parts, stuff stolen from other jobsites/stores to be returned for store credit, the guy that bought 50' of 2" hose to drain his pool- now returning it... the list goes on.
Many times, other aholes just like you come in and demand free stuff when the piece of crap they brought in is obviously abused or way out of warranty. They just stand there and cry and make a scene until someone calls the manager and the thief- er, customer- gets their way, just like a two year old.
That's why the manager didn't come up there- you weren't worth the time.
Sorry buddy, I would have treated you the same way.
You should try working there sometime. You might learn something.
I don't know if I didn't do a thorough enough job of relating my experience, or if there are a handfull of people reading what I wrote incorrectly.
I'll give you (and a few others) the benefit of the doubt, and assume the former.
First off.....it wasn't the lowly cashier at the return desk that I was dealing with. She called for the manager of the door dept. immediately upon looking over the door. She never expressed an opinion one way or another. I have no gripes with her, so get passed this image of me browbeating some low paid, overworked, slug.
Secondly....it was the manager who initiated the rude treatment. As I said...she had her mind made up on the matter as she approached the return desk. She didn't bother to inspect the door, or check the receipt, or even ask what the problem was. She noticed a painted door as she approached and stated....to no one in particular..."I'm not taking that door back....it's been painted".She neither looked at me nor spoke TO me.
I'm in agreement with you....and Hazlett. Being a loud and obnoxious ahole is not the way to get what you want. I don't do business that way. And if someone attempts such with me, they'll not likely get very far.
I admit.....I got louder than might be appropriate. I did so, only out of frustration and as a means of getting the manager to actually address me.
Had she done so at any point, I would have immediately become much more rationale in my tone and understanding of her position. That is....if she had actually expressed one.
It is policy not to accept painted, stained, mixed or cut returns at all.
Says you. She never stated such a policy existed to me. She said SHE wasn't taking back a painted door. Store policy? I'm certain it's somewhere in writing, no?
And again......I was not aggitated by her not wanting to accept the door. I was agitated by the treatment I was receiving from her. I didn't expect to waltz in there with my painted door and get a refund with hugs and kisses. I did however expect that the person I was dealing with would treat me with respect and at least feign some interest in my situation.
Perhaps Haz is correct. That's too much to ask from HD. There were two responses from HD employees previous to yours that suggest otherwise.
All the best.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
You must be the manager of the Independence store.Attitude like yours is the reason that I avoid that store when at all possible.Like the time that I wanted to buy a show unit. The "help" in plumbing did not know which units where which, could not match up the labels on the shelf with the stock, did not why none of the units where on the floor, but a number where on the 2nd shelf, did not know when they would get in more units, etc, etc. Later found a VENDOR for a completely different line of products (garage doors) that told me what was going (the overshelf units where damaged or returns) and he used HD's computer to find another store that had the units and got someone to pull it and verify that it was complete.Like the time that I went to "customer service" and asked for a price match to one that I had printed out from the internet. At that time I really did not know what the policey was, but asked for it. This was for a sepecialized light bulb that I was having problem finding. The cost was not that much, but when I looked at HD they where much more than online. That is why I ADKED about the price matching. I had printed out the page from HD that had the bulb on it. Clerk said OK and sent me to the return desk to make the purchase. When to the shelve to get the bulb. Of course the labels on the shelf don't match description on the box. That was part of the reason for this whole mess. There are several difference versions of the bulb and it is hard to figure out which is which. Found a bulb based on the package, but not ever sure of the price because it doesn't match the label.Go to pay for it and the clerk questions the price matching. Calls the manager. Wait, Wait, Wait and wait some more for the manager to come. Tells me that no they don't price match online. I said OK, but I will check it out. Let the bulbs at the return desk. And he said that HD online is completely separate and that they won't match it and if would not be fair to match online because of shipping and taxes. I siad OK, but I would check it out.So I go home and bring up HD's website and print out the page showing the that THEY DO PRICE MATCH ONLINE. And it does require adding in shipping and taxes. That is fair. So I keep searching and looking until I found them even much cheaper than HD's online and printed that out. So go back to the store with a copy of HD'S OWN POLICY and waited and waited and waited for the manager. Even after the manager came up he did not believe me and what I printed out from HD'S OWN WEB PAGES and I waited and waited and waited and waited for him to verify it. Then he allowed the discount, but then they bulbs where not to be found. There was not a complete set back on the shelfs and they wheren't at the return desk either. So I ended up ordering them online.This was all over about $6. And it would probably have never gotten that far if bulbs had been in the right place and the shelf labels where correct so I knew that I was getting the right version I would have probably just bought them off the shelf and been done.Like the time that no one in the store knew where the yard drainage products where 1/2 in the plumbing and 1/2 in the garden section. After finding them and going through cardboard boxes that have setting in the weather for months and moving items around I finaly found a a combination that worked. Then the next day I was in the store and had to show the HD "help" how to help another custoemr with them.Constrast this to Lowes.Bought some of the modular retaining wall blocks at the garden center. Was standing off to the side waiting for the fork lift to come and load them. Did not say anything or make any motions, just calmly waited. After about 15 minutes the clerk said that I waited long enough and to go to customer service and get a 10% discount. Which they did without question. Now that is CUSTOMER SERVICE.Or I was in yesterday. Needed a some plumbing drain fittings. They did not have any male drain adapters, but I was able to work around it. But another customer came along looking for the samething. Told here where the plumbing speicalist was and she got him. After helping her I asked if he had found them. That I would like one. He there was part of one, but did not have the cap and so he got a cap and put on it, but it did not have the lable with the UP so it wrote that one it. That was all for a 69 cent item.
Remember Builder Square , HQ, and the lot?
Precisely why they went down the tubes. Coupled with long checkout lines.
Yes, Lowes can be better in some instances, but they come with their own set of issues - such as irresponsibily long checkouts.
They all sell crap. (But sometimes, crap will do.) Their size convinces the population that crap is standard. I like Steve's comment about never supplying an item that can be obtained from these big boxes.
Perhaps in the next recession, an upstart can pick off a number of store locations from either of these players and begin to offer items from a different distribution chain.
"Perhaps in the next recession, an upstart can pick off a number of store locations from either of these players and begin to offer items from a different distribution chain" I found my first HD in Ft Meyers Fl in I think 92 maybe 93. I was remodeling a small summer home on Captiva and thought it was the greatest thing since sliced bread and canned beer, The service was fantastic and they sold good lumber. A few years later when they started poping up all over the place and I went into one again it wasn't the same store.
I haven't been in a HD on over 5 years but can only imagine how far they have slipped from the posts here. It just took 2 experiences of buying something in a box and getting back to find half the parts missing to know that by 99 they had no interest in my bucks. They may beat Sears in the slide into the nether world.
They all sell crap. (But sometimes, crap will do.) Their size convinces the population that crap is standard.
And so there goes the big business idea of the American way.
Wal-mart, K-Mart, Big Orange, Big Blue, a dozen or so over priced chain restaurants......
the list goes on forever
Sorry, not a manager, just an underling.
I can tell you that there have been plenty of changes at HD since Bob took over- some good, some bad.
I understand that labor is probably their single biggest controllable expense, and Corporate has been doing whatever it takes to bring that number down, whether by cutting staffing, hourly wages, perks or all in combination.
In other words, you get what you pay for.
If there is only one person on the floor, then that leaves little time to deal with customers and straighten the shelves. Since you used plumbing as an example, plenty of those customers want the HD employee to hold their hand through each little step because the customer doesn't know what they are doing or they don't want to pay a pro to do it. That takes time.
If customers put the merchandise back after they tear through the boxes looking at the stuff inside (and then taking an unopened box), the shelves might be a little neater.
In actuality, if you meant "shower unit" instead of "show unit", then that is the kitchen and bath department- not the same as the plumbing department. Kitchen designers do not deal with anything but design work, and plumbing experience is not required for the rest of it.
Managers and ASM's usually don't hide out in the office- they are usually dealing with an irate customer or employee somewhere else.
As far as the price matching goes, you sure spent an awful lot of time to attempt to save $6. What is your time worth? Not matching internet prices was policy, but things change and someone dropped the ball.
HD customer service used to rival Lowes. Things have changed in the attempt to boot this quarters profits. Maybe things will change for the better before it is too late.
If you think it is so easy to work there and help customers, then give it a whirl.
It is policy not to accept painted, stained, mixed or cut returns at all.
This is probably a decent basic policy, but there needs to be some "wiggle room" in it.
That plywood I returned had an internal flaw (significant delamination) that was invisible until the sheet was cut. Anyone with even a fundemental understanding of plywood should know that delamination makes plywood useless, but the HD folks just blindly stuck with the party line and that is/was inexcusable.