wire nuts inside breaker box?
today was running a kitchen circuit into a main breaker box that is full,had to use a thin double breaker to make it work. the ground/common bar is full up so i pulled 3 grounds and wire nutted them together then put the 1 wire into the bar. is this legal? what else are you suppose to do,this is a old box [1950’s] and there is no room to mount another ground bar. only other thing i see is to subpanel off it and get some more space. larry
if a man speaks in the forest,and there’s not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
Replies
Maybe, but not in your case.
I would need to look up the wording, but basically you can put a splice in a panel if there is plenty of space.
But it appears that their ain't in your case.
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
He could put multiple grounds under a single screw on the bar, and make room that way, no?'Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt man doing it' ~ Chinese proverb
3 under the bond, 2 under the nutral...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I believe in Canada you can do it also.roger
IIRC, the grounding conductor does not have to be as big as the current carrying conductors.
So, could you use a 10 gauge ground wire to pull the load required by two or three 20 amp circuits?
Maybe using a larger wire would do the trick?
You are the electrician here. Let him know what will work, short of replacing the panel.
Bryan"Objects in mirror appear closer than they are."
Klakamp Construction, Findlay, Ohio - just south of the Glass City
"IRC, the grounding conductor does not have to be as big as the current carrying conductors.So, could you use a 10 gauge ground wire to pull the load required by two or three 20 amp circuits?"The ground wire for multiple circuits only needs to be sized for the largest circuit."You are the electrician here. Let him know what will work, short of replacing the panel."Actually I am not. I am an electrical engineer by training, but my work as not been in this area..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
if you have lots of room,why would you splice?
would it have been better to have 3 grounds under 1 screw. one of them was that way ,this is pretty old romex,probably50 yrs old,it is 12g but the gound wire looks to be maybe 16,so one of the grounds wasn't under a screw tight so i brought it up into my pigtail.
so you have 3 grounds or 2 commons under one screw? i always thought only one common could be under each screw.thanks larryif a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
twist 3 grounds together and put them under one screw...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"if you have lots of room,why would you splice?"Several reason. Replacing a panel or damage wires or rearranging breakers to add a tandem often means that the existing wires are too short and need to be extended.The first limitation is the number of wires allowed in a bus hole. That is determined by the manufacture and including in the UL listing. For new panels that is listed on the panel label, but may not be on yours.Older codes limited a hole to one neutral wire. And it became common practice in some areas if more than one wire was allowed in a hole that the neutral and ground where placed in the hole.But apparently that was never the intent of the code and the latest code makes it clear that a hole with a neutral can't have anyother wires in it.But I would not change any existing wires for that.The whole purpose of the splice in panel requirements is that you can stuff every thing in the box without stressing the copper and damaging the insulation.If you think that you have not done that then I would leave it alone..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
I'm not an electrician, but I wouldn't do it and I doubt if it's legal.
Don't put more than one wire under a screw, instead go pick up an add-on ground bar for $4.50. It takes about 1 minute to install.
What type of box is it?
You'll need to know brand and model. CYA - Be sure to get the job inspected by your local electrical inspector.
this is a old zinsco box,so not alot of room to mount another bar. if you do that do you munt it wherever you can and then just run like a 8ga ground over to the orig? i possably could mout one at the bottom of box. thanks larryif a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
Your box is from the mid-60's at which time plastic-sheathed Romex 12-2 with 16ga ground was also introduced. I'll bet the outlet boxes are smallish metal ones with the ground wire pulled outside the box and fastened to the front edge with a sheet metal clip.Zinsco equipment(long out of business) is well known to be failure-prone due to breaker failure and/or arcing between the breaker contacts and the aluminum bus bars. Replacement breakers cost 5 times as much as those from current manufacturers.It might be a good idea to replace the panel with a new one or retro-fit with a new load center. Check out this site for info on retrofit load centers from Eaton-Cutler Hammer that may be able to fit into your existing box. http://www.inspect-ny.com/electric/Zinscoreplace.htmBruceT
Always,
I'm not familiar with that manf. While they all seem very similar in construction, the differences show up in connection points. With a Square D box, the installation is simple. The new bar connects to the original bar. If you have no room in the box, you begin by recalclating the amp usage to see if youo are really in need of an upgrade to a higher service value (for instance from 100amp to 200amp service). Your local inspector can provide help in determining that and if an upgrade is not needed, what would acceptable in the way of a bolted on bar connected to the original bar.
Good luck with it.
Zinsco is about the most notorious brand of panel out there. Do a Google search... You'll find lots of stuff like this:http://www.inspect-ny.com/electric/Zinsco.htmhttp://home.comcast.net/~randybirzer/photos.htm-t
thanks.i'd like to congradulate you in ruining my day. i just bought a house that has a federal pacific box in it,they say some insurance cos won't even insure a house with one there such a fire hazard. now you come up with about the same thing on zinco. maybe i could just hire a electrician full time to go around and replace boxes.
less than 30 days ago i replaced a general switch box that the bus bar was burned out of,only cost 1200!
so whats your vote for a good box now and down the road 30 years,i say that because my first house i put a new 200 amp zinsco box in it back in 78.
thanks ,i think i'll go have a beer
if a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
Sorry man... If it's any consolation, my current house contains some of the sketchiest wiring I've ever personally come across (I'm not an electrician... more of a "gentleman farmer of electrons").Years back, one of my co-workers had to pull a Zinsco box out of his house. No inspection - (first home buyers) - and about a month or two after they've settled in they hear "rats chewing on something in the walls." My buddy tracks the sound into the garage. It's nighttime, but his panel has this faint blue glow around it. He opens it up, and sees that the glow, and the "chewing sound," is from the steady buzz of little electrical arcs... When they pulled the panel, the buss bar looked like hungry little metal mice had their way with it.I just put a Square D QO panel into the shop. I couldn't risk getting it inspected because the main panel for the house is comically out of code. Over half of the wires come into the box without edge protectors, Romex protrudes from the crawl space, traipses across the floor then into the wall, 4 - 5 strands of Romex jammed through a .75" hole...We're remodelling this next year, and we'll rewire the main house then - with another QO panel.
Practically,it is not a presentable job that looks very neet. Therefore, it is up to the inspector to o.k. it. My experience has been that I put only one conductor into each slot. I think the solution would be to install a sub-panel. Over-here, inspectors are afraid that every little thing causes fire. When they see a panelboard cramped-up like that, they say it may cause a spark and eventually fire.
I got dinged by my electrical inspector in Colorado for doing just what you did. It seems he wanted no wire nuts in the service panel. He was ok with several #12 in a bus connector designed for bigger wire. I don't know if this is NEC or local code.
Larry my house had a zinsco and it had some wires nutted together in the breaker box
I don't know if it's allowed or not, but I have seen it in other circuit breaker panels.
I saw it on a house built in the 1970's also
The home inspector did not say anything about it.
I think I paid about $60 for a zinsco dual circuit breaker a few years ago.
It's none of my business but I'm guessing you are putting in a dishwasher in your new rental property
yeah,were putting a dishwasher in,i hate them,but people won't hardly rent a house without them. just something else for me to maintain and some of them were only getting 3-5 years out of.
i know about your zinsco box,you gave it to me! thats where the breaker came from that i used in the box .thanks ,we put them to good use. did you hire someone to put in your box? it looks like i have several replacements in my future. larryif a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
I put mine in myself - that was back when I was young and ambitiousNo really it was a year ago and I did mine myself but I should have hired it done.I took my time and I think I did a good job but some of this stuff I really don't want to try to do it myself anymore.The other thing I wanted to mention is I have seen someone took two black wires and pliers to twist them together, and then put the two wires under the screw in the breakerI think you need to be real careful doing anything like that - you need to know what you're doing or you won't get a tight connection and then you're in trouble.But the problem is they just don't have enough spaces or slots in those old breaker panel boxes
"The other thing I wanted to mention is I have seen someone took two black wires and pliers to twist them together, and then put the two wires under the screw in the breaker"You can only put the size and number of wires under a terminal for which it is approved for.Now some terminals, such as bus bars are approved for 2 wires, maybe 3 in the smaller sizes. But that does not require twisting them together. But I have seen it done a few times. usually when you need to needle nose pliers to work the ground in and under other wiring and you don't have a lot of clearance to the panel side.A large number of breakers are only approved for one wire and tht being withing a certain wire range. SD both QO & Homeline, and I think CH CH & BR lines, allow 2 wires under the terminals for their 15 and 20 (and maybe 25, 30) amp breakers. But they have a grove for each wire so they should not be twisted together..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
No offense, but i've sold more than a few "load center" replacement on kitchen jobs.
You have to be able to bring things up to code in the kitchen and if the panel is old and full......its gotta go.
Plumbing & panel are some of the first things I look at when pricing a kitchen or bathroom.
Keep it simple. You aren't the first one to run into this problem.
Just replace the existing ground/neutral bus with a double stacked buss of the same lenght. You get fifty percent more holes for connections. Busses are available at any electrical supply, and I think i have seen a few at the big box stores.
Wire nuts inside the load center are legal as Bill pointed out, as long as there is adequate room. Normaly they are used to extend a "to short" wire durring a panel upgrade, not tieing multiple wires together for placing under one lug. The connected wire must terminate in the panel.
today was running a kitchen circuit into a main breaker box that is full,had to use a thin double breaker to make it work. the ground/common bar is full up so i pulled 3 grounds and wire nutted them together then put the 1 wire into the bar. is this legal?
Nothing wrong with wire nuts in the panel, it's really no different than wire nuts in any other box.
However, if you are combining grounds to a common ground wire, that common ground wire has to be sized properly for the load. You don't say what size the grounds are or what the circuits are, but for a typically 20A appliance circuit, if you are tying together three 12 guage grounds, you should be OK with a 6 guage common wire.
"However, if you are combining grounds to a common ground wire, that common ground wire has to be sized properly for the load. You don't say what size the grounds are or what the circuits are, but for a typically 20A appliance circuit, if you are tying together three 12 guage grounds, you should be OK with a 6 guage common wire"Grounds are sized by LOAD. They are sized by the overload protection on the circuit.In this case it would be 20 amps so #12 is fine..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
In this case it would be 20 amps so #12 is fine.
I understood the OP to be saying he wanted to tie together grounds from three 20 A circuits, which would total 60A.
that is what i tied together,3 20 amp ground wires,all are 16 gauge bare. i didn't know that a ground wire had to be sized to the load it is carrying. larryif a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
that is what i tied together,3 20 amp ground wires,all are 16 gauge bare. i didn't know that a ground wire had to be sized to the load it is carrying.
Essentially ALL wire must be sized to the load. How are you getting 16 guage wire on a 20A circuit? 12 guage is normally used for 20A circuits (for runs under 50' or so).
I'm at a customer site today and don't have my NEC book in front of me. Perhaps Bill will be kind enough to look up and cite the relevant portion of the code, or I can do it when I am back in the office.
" How are you getting 16 guage wire on a 20A circuit?"Because that is the way that it came.There was a period of time in the late 50's early 60's when non-metalic cables came with a downsized ground wire.From what I heard the code allowed that at the time and thus it is grandfathered in..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
"From what I heard the code allowed that at the time and thus it is grandfathered in."
That ends when changes are made in the box of a new circuit. We then go to present . Thats how most boxes get turned down. Then the box must pass 2008 code requirements.
Tim
"From what I heard the code allowed that at the time and thus it is grandfathered in."That ends when changes are made in the box of a new circuit. We then go to present . Thats how most boxes get turned down. Then the box must pass 2008 code requirements. "I am not sure what you are refering to.My comment about being grandfathered is was about #14 mon-metalic cable that had a #16 ground wire.http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&msg=106914.34Has nothing to do with the box, except that is where the cable was.Now the NEC has nothing in it about having todo with when you have to update to current code.That would be AHJ administravtive code.Now the ones that I have seen typcially have a hirarchy of what has to be brought up to current code. And it is based on both the size of the job, how directly safety is affected and how difficult it would be to make the changes.For example the only time rathers would be brought up to current sizes if if they are being replaced or restructured or other work increases the load on them.Of the threshold is very low to require upgraded the smokes, but non connected battery ones are allowed.But if more significant amount of work is being done then ac operated interconnected smokes are required.Now if what you where saying is that if you add one circuit to the panel and you have the old style grounding wiring that it all much be replaced then BS.Now some AHJ might have that on their books someplace. But if so it has exactly the oposite affect of what is wanted.Take a house like the ones being discussed ($100-120k) and the HO wants to add an over the range MW or grandma moves in and needs a warm room. So an electrican is called to install the MW or adda baseboard heater to grandma's room.Checks out the panel and the access and say that it will be a straight forward job and would ordinary cost #175.But I see that you have an old style cable and the the city requires that the whole house be rewired.That will be $10,000.You KNOW what will happen. A space heater off an extension cord for grandma. Or they will find someone that that won't "bother" with the city and they may or may know have the slightest idea of what they are doing.Or it goes on the market and the buyers aks about doing some minor upgrades such as the MW and or told what the cost is.So that drives down the buyers and makes it worthless and helps kill the neigbhorhood..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Wow , thats more then youve said in a while to me . <G>
It was a little hard to read but I gather you were placing emotion in it as well. Thats ok with me . But I dont have any emotion when it comes to doing the right thing . Its a solid call every day of the week for me . I dont care how much it costs and I dont care what they do when I leave . My job would be to turn it down.
Im talking about a box that would not meet current code in the first place but its grandfathered in. You put a circuit in that box and we go 2008. A life is worth more to me than 10 grand . You used the example it would have to be rewired but normally its the service staff and box at 1500. Doesnt matter to me . Every time I walked on a job it was about money . Every arguement was over money. Most of the time I ended up costing them money they didnt want to spend . It goes with the job.
On the other hand would you put a million dollars up that you are right ? You didnt consider that did ya ? Right now its not your money thats at risk. Post your million up for the bet . Because hes got his in. Ive got mine in as well. Spend money is nothing any of us want to do but we expect a place thats safe to stay for our daughter. I dont want to have to pay you in court for your daughter either .
Tim
Whatever.The statement about being grandfathered in was about a type of wire.Has nothing to do with a panel..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
around here ...
U touch it U broke and bought it.
wire or panel.
it's "grandfathered in" ... till U work on it.
then .. either up to code or it's going to be up to code.
so they're make ya tear out all your grandfathered wiring ... all day long.
kinda the whole idea behind keeping things ... up to code.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Larry here is a cheap dishwasher from Home depot that looks like stainless steelhttp://www.homedepot.comI was in home depot today and they have a sign at the cashier saying they will no longer take 20% off coupons because they are counterfeitSo be careful when you go in there - or do what I do and find the cashier who doesn't speak english.Just kidding
i was in there today and didn't see the sign,i didn't know they ever took them,they always told me they were fake,thats why lowes is where to go with them.
i'll check into that dishwasher,i usally try and stay at about 220.00 but if the look is good it might be worth the extra. larryif a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
But the overload protection is not 60 amps, but 20 amps.250.122 (C) Multiple Circuits Where a single equipment grounding conductor is run with multiple circuits in the same raceway or cable, it shall be sized for the largest overcurrent device protecting conductors in the raceway or cable."From the NEC Handbook."A single equipment grounding conductor must be sized for the largest overcurrent device. It is not required to be sized for the composite of all the circuits in the raceway because it is not anticipated that all circuits will develop faults at the same time. For example, three 3-phase circuits in the same raceway, protected by overcurrent devices rated 30, 60, and 100 amperes, would require only one equipment grounding conductor, sized according to the largest overcurrent device (in this case, 100 amperes). Therefore, an 8 AWG copper or 6 AWG aluminum conductor or copper-clad aluminum conductor is required, according to Table 250.122.".
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Larry, here is a wet dry vacuum on craig's list
http://wichita.craigslist.org/hsh/760319848.html
Its not legal.
Its a very good indication with out seeing it that its overloaded.
Im sure Bill can give you a chart to read. He stays up on all that .
He will need the size of the main breaker and the number of breakers and their correlation to sizes such as 10-20amp 4-30 amp etc.
Adding a breaker to a 1950s box is almost always a bad idea. The requirements were much less then.
Normally it means hiring an electrician to install a new panel box to upgrade its requirements.
Doing illegal work can come back to bite you if you are responsible for burning up your tennants. Make sure if you do such work you are within code so your butt doesnt get bit later in front of a jury.
Thats what an inspector takes to bed with them every night . You have a lot more to lose than them. A landlord must have that on their mind also.
Hated to come off as so blunt but it is what it is .
Tim
Tim, the day the house was built the electrical panel was too small and they had one or more double taps in the electrical panel the day the house was completed.The old zinsco magnatrip electrical panels only had a couple of lighting circuits and a couple of 20 amp circuits for everything.PLUS These houses were built WITHOUT an outlet or fan in the bathroom.So down the road you need to add circuits for a dishwasher and then bathroom and then maybe a circuit for a window A/C and maybe you add more outlets in the garage and maybe the house has a basement and they are doing something there. the only way to do it is with the double breakers.Around here people do it every day.They double up wires on the grounding bus or they do it via a pig tail and it's my understanding it passes a home inspection.
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Around here people do it every day.
They double up wires on the grounding bus or they do it via a pig tail and it's my understanding it passes a home inspection."
Home inspection is not a building inspector which has jurisdiction of local utilities. A home inspector has no such power. They are hired privately . Its not up to them to pass anything . Only to advise.
The illegal part of it was adding a circuit in such a box. That would get turned down before the wire tying discussion making it moot.
So before you make your arguement that everyone does it , you need to consider his position. You and I have nothing in this but I know whats going on here .
Lets say he has 1 million dollars in rental properties which is also his living . My daughter gets burned to death in one of his houses. I call the state electrical board and ask that they do an inspection of what caused the fire becasue my daughter told me before she died the guy ran a circuit for the dishwsher and then no daughter . They find a circuit has been added and it doesnt have an inspection. Its against code and the cause of the fire is determined .
Doesnt look good does it ? Two kinds of people . One doesnt have money and they think about getting it . The other has money but must worry about losing it .
Tim
that about sums it up doesn't it? sometimes i envy the guy that has 1.55 in change in his pocket,no worries,sue me if you don't like it what are you going to get?
i'll get back to you on this post cause i've got some questions ,but headed out the door right now. larryif a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
"Around here people do it every day."
and?
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
I had something interesting happen a week or two ago.A client bought a house for $135,000 and I helped her shop around for homeowners insuranceHer house is about 10 years old.We found a good deal at a price of about $619 per year for homeowners.I said "that's not fair her insurance is cheaper than mine"and my house is only worth $95 to $100I said why is hers cheaper.they told me mine would be cheaper if I updated the heat, air, and electrical.It makes sense.But I guess I just like the old houses.