My cousin called me with a question I couldn’t answer. He’s adding a few light fixtures to his unfinished attic. He’s using the simple single-bulb two-conductor plastic base kind (the bases used to be made out of porcelain, now they’re plastic). He’s using 14-g Romex and plastic boxes. His question is, what happens with the ground wire? The switch is grounded, but from there to the lights (I think he’s putting in four), there’s no ground. Being totally non-conductive, there’s no way to ground this kind of light receptacle. Does he just cap off the ground wires?
Thanks.
Edited 4/4/2009 12:54 pm ET by OverKnight
Edited 4/4/2009 3:16 pm ET by OverKnight
Edited 4/4/2009 3:16 pm ET by OverKnight
Replies
I would cap them, but keep them a few inches long. They might be used in the future.
Coil it up and stuff it in the box in case they switch to a metal lamp holder. Terminate it in the panel or upstream boxes normally.
BTW a "jelly jar" porch light is not a bad choice in an attic. It protects the bulb, distributes the light well and shields you from getting burned if you bump into it.
CFLs are a good choice in an attic if it is warm enough.
Where there are two or more cables in the box he should wire-nut the grounds together (since someone may in the future install a fixture that needs a ground). Where there's only one cable just shove the ground to the back of the box.
Thanks, everyone. That's pretty much what I thought he should do, but I wanted to run it by here before I told him.Thanks again.
Rather than use the porcelains or plastics why not use the crawlspace fixtures that leave the bulb dangling an inch or so below the box? Saves the bulb (and your forehead) if they get bumped. Use metal boxes and ground the box.
Thank, fingers. I'm not familiar with a crawlspace fixture. I believe he already bought the plastic boxes, but if he hasn't already nailed them in, maybe he can exchange them.
Plastic boxes are fine. The fixture is basically a metal cover similar to what you would use if you were using the box as a junction box. Through the center of the metal plate run two insulated wires about an inch long attached to a socket. It moves when you hit it without breaking. If you ground the box, you ground the cover plate.
A fixture like that should have a ground screw or wire anyway.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
There is a metal strip from the ground screw in the plastic box that extends up to the mounting screw holding the cover. They are ULC listed fixtures and we are required to use them in crawlspaces or low basements. They are so common here I thought they were used everywhere, but I guess that isn't the case.
I've never seen a ground screw in a common plastic box.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
We are talking about octagonal fixture boxes right? I don't think I've ever seen one without.
I installed a couple of rounds Friday that had no ground screw. Haven't done any octagonals for some time.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
Now you've got me wondering. Maybe I just always buy the ones with the ground tab to the mounting screw, or maybe it's a Canadian thing. I'll ask my electrician. Wally knows everything.
Note while very similar Canadian code does have some variations from US code.A couple that I know breaker panels where restricted to 42 poles in the US until the 2008 NEC version. And in Canada you can't use 15 amp receptacles, although rated for 20 amps total and feedthrough, on 20 amp circuits. And I understand that this is changing, but you required multiwire circuits and split receptables and GFCI's only next to the sink.Like Dan I have never seen a plastic box with a ground connection.
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William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Turns out it is a Canadian thing. All our plastic boxes have a tab from one cover screw to a ground nut. Think of the other things you are missing out on too: Well regulated banks, universal but low quality health care, maple syrup...
Apologies to the OP for giving him advice that is of no use where he lives.
We'd have maple syrup if my wife cared for it -- sugar maple tree in the front yard.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
Nice. It's one of the things I miss since I moved west. They do tap the Oregon Maples here but it isn't cold enough to produce enough sugar for really good syrup.
What do you put on your pancakes?
Log Cabin. We made maple syrup a couple of years, but the wife and kids (young then) didn't like the taste, so I gave up.It is a little iffy here -- some years the temps are good, some years not so good.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
I've been thinking about using these for my crawlspace lighting:
View Image
Here's a link: http://www.farmtek.com/farm/supplies/prod1;ft1_lighting_fixtures_bulbs-ft1_lighting_fixtures;pg102718.html
Right now I'm using temporary jobsite lighting strands (military grade with rough service bulbs) but I want to put in something more permanent.....yet very cheap.
In the crawl, I was thinking of just using spare Romex and stripping off the outer sheathing wherever I wanted a bulb. I gotta look into the "legalities" of it more though.
DC
We call that Brewery Cable. It was widely used on construction sites until about 5 years ago when they banned it. I'm not sure if it was a code thing or Workers Compensation that stepped in. It's still available here though. I use it on trails to illuminate paths to cabins at a resort I do work at.
you use it outside?it says "indoor use only"what kind of wire do you use?DC
It's a neoprene insulated wire for indoor or outdoor. It is designed as temporary construction lighting, but I've had it strung between trees on paths for over ten years without deterioration.
I don't believe those are approved even for temporary lighting durring construction.
From the 2008 NEC
Article 590.4(F): All lamps for geral illumination shall be protected from accidental contact or breakage by a suitable luminaire or lampholder with a guard.
590.3(D) requires that any temporary wiring be removed upon completion of construction.
What about closet/attic pull chain lights and similar?
"What about closet/attic pull chain lights and similar?"They are OK, but you can't use them in a cloths closet..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Article 410.16(B) Lumainaires Types Not Permitted.
Incandescent luminaires with open or partially enclosed lamps and pendent luminaires or lampholders shall not be permitted.
410.16(C) gives the clearances to the nearest point of storage for the acceptable types.
So, I can put an exposed luminaire pull-chain or keyless light fixture in a non-clothes closet but I would need to put an enclosed fixture in my attic, basement, or crawlspace?Edited to add:BTW, I have seen those same exact exposed bulb, two wire, clamp-on barn lights in use at a local Olive Garden restaurant....so how does that figure in?
Edited 4/7/2009 5:19 pm ET by Dreamcatcher
So, I can put an exposed luminaire pull-chain or keyless light fixture in a non-clothes closet but I would need to put an enclosed fixture in my attic, basement, or crawlspace?
You may put them in a storage closet, but there are restrictions on the clearances (410.2) Then you move on to 410.11 which places limits on them if there is combustible material in the storage closet so that the fixture has to have shades or guards that material is not subtect to temoeratures above 90 C (194 F).
A cardboard box is combustible material, right?
It is kind of nuts to me too, but I don't do residential wirng. I've talked to the inspector in my county and he sort of agrees with me that it is hair splitting. He says just put in guarded fixtures and use CFLs and it will pass.
In most homes things that are added after the final inspection are seldom inspected. I would put in what ever was reasonable for me, but also expect to get flagged on them durring a HO inspection when selling the house.
The reason I replied to you post with the attached picture was that I have only seen those things used for temporary lighting. Even then there are restrictions on protecting the wiring and fixtures from damage. On many commercial jobs the temporary lighting is just abandoned in place when the permentant lighting is installed. As long as it is cut loose from the source the inspectors just ignore it. Then when the building is occupied some maintenance guy hooks it back to give himself light above a drop ceiling or some dark crawl space :)
Hey Dave,While I got the Master Electrician online, I got another Q for you.I bought some HD Commercial Electric 3" recess lights that are non-IC but I didn't even think to look until I already had one installed. I was disappointed as I planned to use them all over as accent lights (closets and nooks). SO, I figured out that a standard large coffee can fits over them and leaves about 2" of air clearance all around. I just punch a hole in the top, add a halex clamp connector, push the wire in, slip the can down to the drywall, and pack insulation over and around. I realize the cans don't have a UL listing but I'm curious what you think?Good "yankee engineering" or bad "jerry rigging"?DC
Good "yankee engineering" or bad "jerry rigging"?
Man I can't answer that one.
I don't do any residential wiring, other than my own, and I'm not a can light fan.
The IC rating on can lights means that they can withstand the heat buildup within the fixture and not damage the insulation of the wires. Is 2" enough to do that? I don't know.
Maybe CAP will come along and take look at that one.
Hi, all. Sorry, I've been busy the past few days, and didn't have a chance to thank everyone for their suggestions.Interesting thread here; I'd never seen lights like those FarmTeks.
when I was building my house. HD has the cord with seven lights wired into them, you seen them as construction light. so when I build the house it was in the rafter hook to a receptacle I had at the attic stairs. I left them up there. no wiring and seven lights in the attic
I looked at those too. IIRC they were over $50 for 50ft.I got the surplus military lights for $15 for 40ftconsidering the price of wire now (was around $70/250ft when I bought the temp lights) the barn lights would be the most economical solution.DC