Wood exposed to basement concrete floor
Hello, <!—-><!—-><!—->
I’m new to this forum… just signed in yesterday. I need some help with bare wood being exposed to my basements concrete floor. It is causing a musty smell there and I would like to stop it but don’t know how. The piece of wood is a 2X4 running across my basement’s concrete floor and is part of my staircases’ load bearing structure.<!—-><!—->
Please see the pictures attached for a better view and notice the vapour barrier is only seen along one side of the piece of wood. As a result, only part of the piece of wood is exposed to the concrete, the other part is correctly protected from the concrete floor. I would like to find a way to protect the rest of the wood (the exposed part) from the concrete so I can fix the musty smell. The smell exists all year round and though I occasionally bleach the wood on top and underneath, the smell eventually (within a few weeks) comes back again. I also run a dehumidifier during the summer, but it also does not do the trick. <!—-><!—->
The other drawback is because it is a load bearing structure and concrete nails were used to attach it to the floor, there is no gap between the piece of wood and concrete – even for something as thin as a small piece of vapour barrier – it just does not slide underneath. It is the only part of the basement that has the musty smell – and you can easily smell it when you lean towards it. The length of the exposed wood is about 3 to 4 feet in length along the floor.<!—-> <!—->
Is there a way to prevent this from happening? I would prefer not to have to take apart the entire stairs structure to fix this problem, but I am open to many options at this point.<!—-> <!—->
Please help and thank you very much in advance.<!—-> <!—->
Rhonda
Replies
Temporarily support the load above, and make it tight and strong, you want to pick up on the load "slightly".
Clean off that shelf.
Take a pc of 5/4 composite decking such as trex. That's pretty water resistant and shouldn't crush with the weight (I don't think).
Put that on the floor next to the stinky wood. Put a 2x2 on top of that. Take your sawzall with a metal blade (in case you aren't high enough to miss the nails and it's a thinner blade than wood cutting. Use the 2x2 as your undercut guide. Cut off the bottoms of all those studs and remove the plate and stub pcs (bust or cut the concrete nails in there). Fasten the trex to a 2x4 plate. Slide the thing in there and then toe nail the studs to it. Fasten the plate/trex down to the concrete with tapcons, remove the shoring and put the stuff back on the shelf.
Welcome to breaktime.
You've got one good nose.
A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Hi, Calvin,
Thank you for replying to my problem request. I'm still new to the construction area... I only bought my house a few years ago and am still learning and becoming handy on a need to know basis so .... I need some clarity if you don't mind.
How easy would this be to do this on my own and does it involve much strength and knowledge of structure etc to do? Also, what is Trex and what is a "sawzall"? Not familiar with them. I'm concerned of the effects of these changes on the stairs? It won't impact the structure?
Thanks again for you help.
Rhonda
rdude.
Is this a job of strength and understanding of structure? Probably. A quick look by a decent carpenter will tell if there's a need for temporary support of the floor/stair system. He or she would also have a sawzall which could be used to cut out the stinky plate and substitute it with a non wood product (post or blocks).
But, you could do it yourself for sure.
Why don't you take another photo of the up-joist situation. Get as much in the picture as you can. Maybe lie on your back and shoot straight up. We'd want to see any connection of the joists around that stairwell and how the joists sit on any beam toward the middle of the house.
Google is a pretty hand search engine for the terms that sound strange to you. Or Wikpedia too I guess.
Best of luck.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Rhonda,
I think the easiest thing to do would be to just barely lift the plate off the ground via temporary shoring and shims. You could then sawzall the concrete nails and then slip some sort of thin waterproofing material under the plate.
I would think about using tar paper, for example. The plastic might work, too.
I've considered using Trex (or other "plastic" lumber) for sole plates as Calvin suggested. However, I'm 95% sure that the product literature advises against that application. (That's probably just the lawyers talking, though, so take it with a grain of salt.)
Hope that helps.
In regards to the trex as a plate , I believe the Op said it was only supporting the stairs, so its probably OK
I really should start reading for comprehension.
thanks.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Yeah, I'm not concerned about the structural load; it's only compressive, and it's minimal.
I used some 2x4 Trex as a sole plate under an exterior stair structure several years ago (it was on my own house, incidentally). I figured it would be great, since it wouldn't ever rot.
Several months after I was done with the project, I read somewhere in the product literature that it was NOT intended for wall plate applications. If I recall correctly, it was due to air circulation issues, not structural issues.
Again, my gut feeling is that the disclaimer was due to weasels in the legal department, but I figured I'd bring it up nonetheless.
Edited 1/29/2008 10:28 pm ET by Ragnar17
Last summer I did a post and beam entry for a house. To isolate the bottoms of the 8"x8" posts from the deck, I sat them on squares cut from plastic cutting boards. Unlike Trex, they are only 1/2" thick so if they do compress over time it won't be a big deal. I don't know a lot about plastics, but I would imagine that the long term problems will come from them becoming more brittle with age as opposed to them compressing. With Trex don't you also need to worry about expansion along its length?
With Trex don't you also need to worry about expansion along its length?
No, with that constant bsmnt temperature and no sunlight-shouldn't move.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Ah, true enough, it's the sun that sets it off.
Hi,
Thanks for your reply. So you think the shims etc. would be strong enough to live the plate off the ground enough for me to slide the plastic vapour barrier underneath? I tried even budging the vertical 2/4's and they don't even move - becuase of the weight on them from the stairs? What do you mean by shoring? Still new to the "handy" world so not familiar with some of the terminology. :-) Also, how easy would it be to slide these shims underneath? I tried even sliding a screwdriver underneath to push the vapour barrier through but it could barely fit in there.
Please let me know and thanks again for your help.
Rhonda
Are you REALLY sure that this is the source of your musty smell? That wood looks pretty dry & new, not the least bit discolored from being wet. Is there any air circulation in this basement? A plain concrete floor in a closed, stagnant space can smell pretty musty after a while.
Don
The Glass Masterworks
"If it scratches, I etch it!"
Hi Don,
Thank you for your reply. Yes, I can smell it coming from just a few feet off that plate nailed to the floor. I actually do run a fan in there once I wipe it down with chlorine/water solution and actually all summer I keep a small running on it as well but still doesn't fix the problem. I also put in a cold air return in the finished part of the basement and also run my furnace fan 365 days a year to always keep the air circulating in the house but still have that smell. :-(
Please let me know your thoughts and thanks again for your help.
Rhonda
Rhonda: At least you have tried the simplist solutions, & they failed. Now...
Are you SURE that this wall really bears load? Usually stairs into a basement are parallel to the floor joists, meaning the curtain wall like yours bears no load - or load at only one point along the stair stringers. If the stairs are perpendicular to the joists, they have had to place a header beam parallel to the stairs & all the joists attach to that. This wall looks too flimsy to be a bearing wall for such a header, which would be carrying the load of a VERY significant section of the flooring above. I'll betcha that its main purpose in life is to satisfy some piece of code requiring a railing along the stairs. That stair stringer looks strong enough that it needs no intermediate bearing post.
Now for the DISCLAIMER!!!!!!!! I are not a professional injunear, nor am I a licensed builder. I cannot give you advice that you can cite in a defense, blah, blah, blah. BUT - I can give you some ideas to think about in your own wandering in the wilderness of a messy problem.
Your problem is not the sill 2X4 - it is any water/moisture that comes up under it. You put an impervious membrane under it & you still have the water/moisture. Apparently you don't have a lot of water coming up - you cannot see it. Therefore, your problem it to get it to evaporate before it can grow mold & generate an odor. I still say that the sill looks too pristine to be the problem.
If, in your humble opinion, that wall bears no weight, RIP it out & see what happens to the odor. If you feel it bears some load, figure out where it supports what is overhead, put in a sistered pair of 2X4's or a 4X4 column seated on a Simpson metal post base that will give you some air space under the post. If you feel that you need the entire wall, put the sill in as a piece of pressure treated wood, separated from the concrete w/ spacers made, also, from pressure treated wood. No matter what, you need to get rid of intimate contact between the sill & the concrete. Otherwise you may have to come back & fix your fix!
If you are doing the work as a DIY home owner, remember that your time is charged at about ten cents an hour, so you can spend more money on materials & not feel ripped off by a more elegant/complicated solution the first time. Again, if your first fix doesn't work, you will have to fix the fix, paid for in severe frustration & aggravation. In other words, do it right the first time!
Now, about the concrete nails into the floor. Don't expect to get them out easily. If you try to pull them, & are successful, you will probably generate spalls where they were. Try a Sawzall & it may be a real pain cutting the case hardened nails. When you try to drive new nails into the floor, unless you are a pro w/ a pro's big ol' honkin' hammer, you will bend them. Ditto for the blue screw thingys that are supposed to go into concrete. I have found that as a fallback, I use 20d spikes that I prebend into an arc. I drill a hole in the concrete w/ a concrete bit that is as close to the diameter of the nail as possible. The curved nail wedges itself into the hole. Further, I put them in in pairs about 4 inches apart, angling them toward one another. That way, the board cannot pull off the floor. If it's a load bearing wall, you have to have a tight fit between the floor & whatever it supports anyway, so the nails bear no tension load, only shear loads.
Hope this has been some food for thought & you have gotten at least one idea from it.
Don
The Glass Masterworks
"If it scratches, I etch it!"
I doubt that you have a load bearing wall there. Take a picture of the header that the studs are attached to and the connecting beams that they are attached to. I'm betting that you could remove the plate and let the studs dangle without incident.
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
My thoughts, for what they're worth are that you should just treat the plate with something to stop the water penetration and the smell. There is a product called Cuprinol (I believe) that is used to treat lumber to prevent rot. I would think about really dousing the plate with that--mopping it on with a brush, possibly making a dam to contain it. I'd mop it on over the course of several days, giving it all it'll absorb.
Another thought is to use Minwax wood hardener. It is a volatile, stinky and probably carcinogenic solvent-like liquid. I'd pour and brush that on until it won't absorb anymore.
I especially think you should try either of those ideas first to see if it helps because if you are asking what Trex is and what a sawsall is, no offense intended, but I'd say you aren't really the carpenter-type and doing structural work may be beyond your abilities. I am not trying to be a smartypants or be insulting--we all have things we can do and things we can't do, and I'm a great fan of staying away from things I can't do! (and knowing the difference!) (I for one, never do my own dentistry.)
Good luck. There are also mixtures of borax and antifreeze (glycol) that may work if mopped on--theat will kil the odor causing organisms.
Edited 2/4/2008 8:51 am ET by Danno
Instead of all the heavy demo/replacement work, try something simple first. Coat the wood with shellac. Pour it on and around the plate so that it flows underneath, coating the bottom surface. That piece of plastic should probably be removed. The plastic could be a cause of the smell as it actually may trap moisture.
Hope we/I didn't scare you off--what did you finally decide to do? I was thinking that another, probably better idea would be for you to have a builder look at your situation if you decide to go the reconstruction route, rather than trying it yourself.
Hello everyone,
Thank you all for your help/tips/ideas trying to help me sort out the best way to solve this "musty" smell I'm having in the basement. I'm not sure which way I should go yet as all these ideas are good but I would prefer to do the easiest ones first since, as you say Danno, I'm not such an amazing carpenter (atleast not yet - still learning tonnes). I have taken more pictures of the stairs though and they are included here. Also, I'm more inclined to use the easier remedies first though. Please let me know your thoughts from these pics. If it is load bearing or not etc.More Pictures are attached of the left and right sides (bottom and top of stairs and how they are supported). Hope they help.Thanks again,Rhonda
Those pics are too big for me to look at (I have dial up service). Maybe others can comment. In any case, I would try any of the remmedies I suggested--or the idea of saturating with shellac--or saturating with bleach again (but I think the glycol, borax, boric acid mixture would be more effective than bleach) before messing with the structure unless you can have someone who knows what they are doing actually come out to see what you have. It's unlikely that a stair wall is a bearing wall, but it could be--it could also be holding the stiar carriage and that might be heavy enough to cause problems. I'm just reluctant to give you advice after only reading about your situation without seeing it in person. As I say, others here with faster connections can view your photos and comment--som can even repost them for you so others, like me, are able to open them.
Thanks, Danno.
I didn't think about the size of the pics... perhaps the other can save them with smaller pixels...
Thanks again for all your help and I will keep you posted on the updates.
Rhonda
resized
Thanks so much for posting the resized picture--really helps.
Edited 2/12/2008 6:33 am ET by Danno
I am with another poster.
Those 2x's look too clean to generate a musty smell to me.
I see a sewer cleanout in the one picture. Are you sure all your plumbing drain lines are sealed up tight?
Is there carpet being stored under the stairs? Get that and any other paper/ wood products out from under and see if the smell goes away.
Most all codes require that all wood be separated from concrete by a barrier or be pressure treated.
If this wall is only holding up the stairs, cut the plate out and replace with a pressure treated plate or jack up and slide heavy felt (30 lb or rubberized roll stuff) under the plate. If you get from nail to nail with each piece of felt and notch around the nail, it will be 98% which should be aok.
What part of the country are you in?
Do you have dehumidifier in the basement . (will help remove moisture and minimize the growth of mold and mildew ergo the musty smell
good luck
I looked at just the first three of the resized photos that JMadson post and I can tell you a couple things: 1) That wall holds the ends of your floor joists at the stait opening--you cannot just willy-nill knock this wall down and play around, you must build a temporary wall inward (toward the picture taker) first. I would do this with one of two methods--frame a wall on the lying flat on the floor with a top and bottom plate and studs, then temporarily glue a second bottom plate to the floor and set your wall on that and use wedges (if necessary) to fix that wall tightly to the joists, running perpendicular to the joists and parallel to the run of the stairs and the existing wall.
Pardon any typos that get through, I've had a migraine since yesterday morning and my typing is suffering from it. In my opinion, an even better way of fixing a temporary wall is to screw or duplex nail a plate across the floor joists, use a plumb bob to find the position for the bottom plate and set it on the floor under the top plate (maybe a little caulk or something to hold it in place), then set guite long "studs" on the bottom plate--these will be so long they will hit the top plate at a fairly good angle--but less than 45 degrees--maybe ten or 20 degrees. Lean them in at the tops in pairs so tops touch and nail or screw tops into top plate. Then use sledge hammer to drive bottoms toward each other until the wall is tight, and toe nail or screw the bottoms to the plate. This will support your joists (floor above). Then you can work on the plate in qustion.
HOWEVER--Don't I see visquean (polyethylene sheeting) under the plate in question? If so, how is this plate getting water from the slab? The plate and slab both look dry to me. I would agree with the poster who asked about your floor drain(s?)--fill their traps with water and see if that stops the smell--smell may be sewer gas!
Please don't jump into anything without further study and thought!! It would be crazy to go through the trouble of shoring up that wall and replacing a plate that is perfectly fine! I have never heard of a wooden plate, even a rotten one, causing a noticeable odor. Check this all out carefully and see what else could be causing an odor.
Sincerely--Danno
I will look at the other photos in a while--please also note--you don't know me (or any of the other posters) from Adam, so take our advice with some grains of salt. Preferably get an honest carpenter (someone from your church? Call a volunteer agency, get a habitat volunteer?) to come out IN PERSON and look at your situation. Don't jump the gun and find out you've spent lots of money and effort to fix an non-existent problem. I agree that the probably is a smell, just don't necessarily agree as to the source. best wishes--D
Rhonda-
Besides the odor that you smell when leaning close to the 2x4 in question, are there any other evidences of water or gathering moisture that you have found in the basement at any time?
Reason asked is to isolate various possibilities before getting involved in a big endeavor.
Can you tell us what state the location of the house is in and a rough estimation of the year the house was built.
There is an old trick to find out if there is a working vapor barrier underneath your basement floor concrete slab, usually something like a 6mil plastic sheet separating the ground from the bottom side of the slab.
Take a rubber doormat or an approx. 2sq ft sheet of plastic and lay it flat, tightly weighted down, on the concrete slab for a few days then lift it to see if there is moisture evident under that sheet. This will tell you if indeed there is moisture traveling thru the slab.
In this picture closeup that you took of the 2x4 sill plate it seems there is evidence of watermarks on the exposed side of the sill that would reveal a serious height of water in the basement at one time but may also have been from the previous attempts of bleaching.View Image
I'd have to agree with the other posters who said they lean towards the idea that it doesn't seem the sill is the culprit.
Moving all that stuff far away from the stair area is a good suggestion as your process of elimination continues.
Is the outdoors area of the basement walls continually damp as from normal soil conditions or water runoff from the gutters being dropped close to the walls instead of led away by horizontally sloped downspouts?
Hopefully it is a simpler answer as was mentioned in an earlier post by lacking a water seal in the plumbing thereby permitting odors to migrate back into the basement or an odor from the items stored there.
Cheers
Edited 2/12/2008 5:38 pm ET by rez
My question, still unanswered, from you photo is, what in the heck is that under the plate--it sure as heck looks like plastic sheeting (vapor barrier) to me and so my next unansered question is, where in the bloody heck is this water that's penetrating and rotting the plate coming form?!
ya, she mentioned the little plastic slip sheet and the idea that part of it isn't under that sill on one side and thus the problem
as she couldn't get the sill pry'd up enough to be able to push the plastic all the way under to fulfil the barrier
thus preventing the water migrating to the 2x which is causing the odor.
well, ya gotta love her for trying.
What got me was the leaning over and smelling it distinctly in that location.
Water seal missing in the sewer is something to check for sure. Hope she comes back with some more info as we all love a mystery.
That's the second recent odor thread. The first still remains unsolved but this one being musty as opposed to the other stronger odor makes me lean more towards venting or musty from other items than any involvement with the sill.
Makes me wonder why she first isolated the sill as the problem and if it was solely from the smell in that particular smaller area.
Peach full,easy feelin'.
Edited 2/12/2008 7:01 pm ET by rez
Before replacing, I would try to treat the wood. A product called Timbor is excellent. It is deep perpetrating and lasts for up to 20 years.
Check around town and find a framer or handyperson with a good reputation. Tell them you want to replace the 2X4 on the floor. I would use TSL (timber strand lumber) as a first choice, and treated lumber as a second choice.
Assuming by your comments that you have little experience with this sort of work, it could be dangerous or expensive to try it yourself. Those nails that are holding the 2X4 to the concrete are hardened and do not cut easily. Also, they do not pull easily. You could put out an eye doing that if you don't wear goggles.
This job should cost you about a hundred to two hundred bucks, depending on who does it. The acutal work is not that large, but you have to take into consideration that you are also paying a tradesperson for the time they take to make an estimate, travel to and from your house, set up, clean up, discuss the job with you, and arrange for materials. It is an easy fix, but tricky for someone without the experience.
A couple months after you replace the stinky board, the problem will be gone, or you will have a chance to investigate further. Best wishes.
Good points--I didn't even think about the fact that the nails are undoubtedly hardened nails and anyone will have a devil of a time cutting them with a sawsall--and how do you get a carbide blade in there? Pouring a wood hardner or some anti-rot treatment under and into the wood seems to be a be the answer rather than getting that plate back out and another one in! We always used PT plates. Glued them with liquid nails and pounded tempered nails in (especially made for concrete--were they ever hard and tough! Guy I work with now just uses a gun that uses .22 blanks. Would't want to try to pull one of those hardened nails either!)
Hello everyone,
Thanks again for all your help and advice.
Yes, I think I might get someone who knows the trade and whom my friends/family trust and get them to look at it and see what they think/estimate etc? I would really like to just get rid of the smell once and for all so all these tips are handy. When I do get a chance to get in the tradesmen, I will be certain to let you know what they have to say. Though I would like to try that shallack and or other easier remedies first before calling in the contractor. Keep you posted!
Take care,
Rhonda