I’m getting ready to build a new wood fence for myself and my neighbor. I think we’re going to go with treated posts and cedar otherwise. I’ve done some fencing work before for relatives, both framed style and simple post and rail. My question this time around is about the strength of the fastening technique.
The two types I am considering are post and rail, with the rails attached to the side of the posts, or a framed type, with the rails attached to the inside surfaces of the posts. My impression is that rails attached to the surface of the post allows for several different fastener types – screws, nails, bolts – and it would be stronger over time than the inset rails toe-nailed to the posts. I like the look of the inset rails, but I don’t want this thing to fall apart in five, or even ten years. Are there other options for doing this, or is toe nailing pretty much the way it’s done? I considered hangers, but I don’t want them to show.
Our current fence is 23 years old, with 2×6 rails carriage bolted to the posts, and 4/4 slats stapled to the rails. Too bad the posts are finally falling over.
Thanks for any help.
Replies
if you inset the rails it will be easier to make it look good on both sides if that is important. You can screw the rails in just like toe nailing if speed is not that important.
It's less critical that it look good from both sides as it is that it lasts.
Will toe screwing hold as well as screwing the rails directly to the posts? It seems like over time as the rails soften and fence swells and shrinks that the screws would want to pull through the rail edge.
Am I wrong in thinking that the frame type fences won't last as long?
In general the toe nailing or screwing will probnably not be as strong as face nailing or screwing but it should be enough. One solution would be to use pocket holes and screws instead of toenailing bgut that would be time consuming, and you would have to buy the pockethole jig. Ive used that technique on deck rails but it would be a waste of time on any fence ive built. It might work for you though.
Are you routing a pocket (mortise) in the post for the rail to insert into? If so, toe-screwing and using polyurethane glue will give you a joint that won't be going anywhere.
Regards,
Tim Ruttan
Tim,
No, I won't be routing a mortise. I think I've narrowed it down to toe-nailing (or screwing) the rails inset or attaching them directly to the post surface.
Use the better-looking post-to-stringer detail. Then screw the stringers to the posts. Use 3" deck screws (or better yet, stainless if you got the $$).
Then, hide the screwheads with the pickets. Makes for an awesome looking fence, and the joints will last as long as the wood.
Thanks for the reply. Could you elaborate just a little on your post for this part-timer? Are you saying that you would just screw the rails directly to the outside surface of the posts and then hang fence slats that would cover the screws?
Right now I'm considering a design that comes close to the look of a framed fence, but with the strength of the post and rail design. I would screw the rails to one side of the posts, and then add my slat fill to the opposite side, filling in the space between the posts. The slats would be cut fat acress the top, achieving the even, stepped appearance of a framed fence.
In my envisioned design, the stringers (horizontal pieces) do not lap over the posts. Instead, they are cut to meet the inside edge of each post. The screws are then put in on an angle -- just like toenailing, but with screws.
The pickets -- whatever vertical pieces you'll be using -- are then placed. Be careful with the spacing of the pickets (or perhaps with their width), so that a picket will cover all of the screw heads on both ends of every stringer.
Or, in your proposal using framed sections -- the horizontal pieces are an integral part of the frames. The concept of putting them between the posts (rather than lapping them over) still holds. You might want to use a different method of hiding the screw heads, depending on your final design decision. (The worst case I can think of might require pocket holes for the screws, and plugs for the pocket holes -- quite tome consuming, but could look awesome.)
In my opinion, all of the best-looking fences have the posts visible in some manner. Framed-section fences are some of the best-looking ones I've seen or done.
Another important design element is the size of the posts. If you will be using frame sections that incorporate thin pieces (smaller than 1X4), then the posts should probably be 4X4's. On the other hand, if the sections will utilize wider pieces (like 1X6 pickets), then you might want to think about 6X6 posts. It becomes a matter of proportion. Wide boards with skinny posts just looks like something is wrong.
Vast projects should not be founded on half vast ideas.
Thanks for the detailed reply. Yes, I agree completely that visible posts is the way to go. That's why I was trying to come up with a design that showed the posts and still let me attach to the surface, if I ended up thinking that was the best way to attach.
Sounds like most are in agreement that toe-screwing the rails is strong enough. My fear comes from the fence I tore down and replaced for my inlaws. It was the classic privacy fence - solid boards on the bottom and a 1 foot lattice top. It was professionally installed by a prominent fence builder in town. The rail attachments were the weak points. They were toe-nailed to the posts but over time the small diagonal purchase the nail has on the rail fails.
I've seen similar failures. Most of them had used cheap nails -- some weren't galvanized, most weren't ring shank or spiral. As a result, they rusted, and/or they pulled out with seasonal movement.
Use good quality deck screws. Get over the sticker shock, and just buy the good ones. Minimum length for your app is probably 3" -- get longer ones if you can. Galvanized is good. There are some coatings that are even better. And stainless would be the best.
And when you're done, come back and post a picture.
Vast projects should not be founded on half vast ideas.
CAMPBELLDUST,
I am replying: The best looking fences I have seen are 6x6 posts with 2x4 attached to the inside of each post centered in the middle of 6x6 2x4 rail top, center and bottom. Cedar boards on the diagonal with alternating size widths and then trimmed around all 4 sides with 1x4 cedar. Probably have to rip the 2x4 down to 3 inches so that both sides can be finished and still fit inside the 6x6 posts.Another nice touch on this fence was 4x6 cap across top that was cut on bevel on both sides of top to make water run off. Another nice touch is setting 8 ft. tall posts and 6' fence and running 2x6 across both sides of post and then a trellis or arbor system across the top. I wil be building a fence in the next couple of weeks that will have a 6' vertical (cedar) fence with 2' lattice across top that will be trimmed out in 1x4 cedar (picture framing the lattice).
ANDYSZ2I MAY DISAGREE WITH WHAT YOUR SAYING BUT I WILL DEFEND TO THE DEATH YOUR RIGHT TO SAY IT.
I've done a fence recently with the post exposed as you describe. You didn't mention finish, but mine was treated wood painted to match the house. Since it was to be painted, I bought some 2x4 joist hangers (they must make these for projects just like this since no one is going to use 2x4's as joists...) and then primed them with a good spray primer and attached them that way. It was very slick - very handy to just "pop" them in and nail. The vertical pcs can cover the hangers partially or completely - whatever you like, but painted, you can't tell they are even there from more than a couple feet away even if you expose them. If you fully conceal them, it could be used even on stained or natural fences, I suppose.
You may not consider making both sides of the fence "pretty" a priority, but after doing it this way once, I'll never build a one-sided fence again.
How about setting your choice of posts, then, using the same material as your stringer, screw a length vertically onto the side of the post? The length will be the distance your top and bottom stringers are spaced apart. Then, screw your stringers into the top and bottom of the added piece using high quality screws (stainless?). Then, just attach your pickets. No exposed fasteners or metalwork, strong connection, no toenails, all for the slight added cost of this additional piece of material.
Bob
. Too bad the posts are finally falling over.
I find (as you apparently have) that the posts are the first major age related failure in a well built fence. As a result any post I set gets bolted into a Simpson pb44 post base that I weld two pieces of #4 rebar to the sides of the "stirrups". The post base gets set in the concrete filled post hole. I have been doing this for about 7 years now and haven't found any reason to stop.
The nice think is you can easily swap in a new post if a tree falls and breaks one. Also the post base has a built in 1" standoff to keep the post out of the ground water.
You will find you have to tighten up the two 5/8" bolts periodically and it takes noticeably more time to prepare the post base/post assy. than to just set posts.
Karl
im posting a few some pics of a fence in my neighborhood. i will be building something close to this in the next couple weeks, but i think im going to add a 2x4 bottom cap just as they have done for the top.
the horizontal rails all seem to be toenailed into the 6x6 and the vertical pickets are stapled from the inside to the 1x4
this fence captures some of the ideas in this thread, but its roughly 3 feet tall. i am not sure how high of a fence you are going with, but hopefully this help with your decision...
View Image View Image View Image View Image
Thanks for the pics - you're right, that has many of the features that I'm looking for. How are the pickets connected at the bottom? Are they just sandwiched, or is there something they are sitting on?
The fences I've seen and built before like this have pickets sitting on a bottom rail, and are held in place with 1x2's nailed on edge. The 1x2's split like crazy when you nail them like this though, unless you want to predrill all of them.
yeah, in this fence the 1x4 pickets are sandwiched by 1x4's on the top and the bottom, and stapled from the inside of the yard through the 1x4.
when i do my fence, im thinking about adding a 2x4 bottom cap, as they did on the top. the fence is already pretty sturdy, but by adding the bottom 2x4, i think it will give it a little more strength, and more of a finished look.
Oak,
What you suggest would look nice, I agree. My only concern, as it is with the others I've seen, is that it creates a nice place to trap water, dirt, vegetation, etc, to encourage rot.
The one in your pic would just drain right out the bottom.
ahh you bring up a good point that i didn't really think about. that is probably why the fence in the pictures do not have that bottom cap.
as for the posts, i picked up some 6x6 this week. after much deliberation, i decieded on using douglas fir. i thought about pressure treated, but i have seen a few fences around with 6x6 pressure treated post that are painted white, and the pressure treated checks dont really appeal to me. so im going with the fir, but im soaking them in a wood preservative called Jasco Termin-8 Green. I figure a good soak (24-36 hours) of the bottom 2 feet that will be in the ground should be ok. I have also opted not to set the posts in concrete. Im going with what they call out here, Class II baserock 3/4 minus. From what i have read, this will help with the draining, while still providing a firm footing for the posts.
not sure where you are at, but living in the san francisco bay area, i dont have to worry about the frost line, freeze/thaw cycles, frost heave and really wet winters, so i think this plan will allow for a long living fence (well, at least long enough until we sell the place)
good luck with the fence. you will have to post some pics when you are done
Edited 8/20/2003 3:57:31 PM ET by oak