Looking at doing some minor work to an old house being purchased by a good prior customer. House is about 1900’s, currently has central heat & air. Wood floor, appearts to be original, oak in some rooms and pine/fir in others. There are gaps along the sides of the boards where they have shrunk over the years, and the purchaser would like to have them filled. Gaps are about 1/16″ with a very few slightly wider. Historical accuracy is not an issue. Given the age of the flooring and the central a/c, is it safe to assume that the boards have stabilized? What type of filler would you recommend? The floor will be sanded and refinished.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell’em “Certainly, I can!” Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
Replies
if the floor is subject to humidity spikes, heavy rain, wet spring etc, reconsider filling long seams if floor expands w moisture content the boards will cup on edges, probably not settle down after
Basically, two types of filler exist for wood(and wood floors). One is latex based similar to joint compound. Some might recommend it here, but I don't. Second type is a two part polyester resin filler, similar to Bondo, and has far greater strength, especially at holding an edge.
Both can be stained. As far as wood movement/floor stability, ther will always be some fluctuation even with AC, although 100 yr old oak/pine is far, far more stable than what one can buy today. So the filler can be used. If you have any doubt, take a moisture meter and check, then check a week later. It shouldn't vary by more than 2-3% .This indicates a stable environment.
What about a wood flour paste?
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
Let me preface my comments by saying I am not a floor expert.
That said, if you fill now, when the wood is largest, you will get cracks in the winter when its smallest. If you fill in the winter when its smallest, you will get cupping in the summer when its largest. Don't know the answer. Maybe do it in the in between time???? Floor fillers don't stretch or compress much...
I have an oak floor in a 15' (across the grain) wide room that must float as one piece cause some one, who shall remain nameless, nailed the base shoe to the floor.In the summer its fine,in the winter the base is 1/2 inch from the moulding that is nailed to the wall....no cracks in the floor...
How bout that for usless information???
>>I have an oak floor in a 15' (across the grain) wide room that must float as one piece cause some one, who shall remain nameless, nailed the base shoe to the floor.In the summer its fine,in the winter the base is 1/2 inch from the moulding that is nailed to the wall....no cracks in the floor..
buy a humidifier
Would not really recommend filling them at all. But, if they're absolutely set on it do it in summer when it has expanded to maximum. It will shrink again in winter and have smaller cracks than before. Don't fill it in winter when it is shrunk. When summer comes, it will buckle. Don't know a product I could recommend. Have not done it for a long time.
Ed,
This may be of help to you -- it covers joint-filling.
IanDG
Thx ... that was interesting.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
if the gaps are somewhat wide I'd rip some splines or whatever you call it and glue them in before sanding.I've done this before with great results.
If by chance there are any boards from the same floor you can remove.say from a closet.I'd rip em' out of that.
Be floored
andyThe secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Ian,
Like Ed said. Noone is disputing your knowledge or experience. I for one think you are one of the most experienced floor guys in the business.
That said. ALL floors are not candidates for filling.....some old floors are just too loose to hold a compound.I never try to spot fill large areas....I'll just knife the whole floor and sand it off.
Go burn a fatty maybe......it makes all the little things go away. Ditch
An old floor with very large gaps is quite a good candidate for filling -- if you know the trick of it.
Use the fibres from a pass down the grain with 36 or coarser grit mixed with poly to fill the joints after cleaning them out thoroughly. This will form a compressible filler because of the voids between the long fibres and the poly will act as an adhesive.Sand to your penultimate grit -- that would be 100 in my system -- then trowel fill the floor with TimberMate in a matching color.If you're faced with a floor that has excessive movement, why aren't you advising the client to stabilise the humidity before you begin the fix? As to humidity in my area -- coastal with temps ranging from 30 - 110F, so quite large swings.
Now, return to Ed's post and you'll see he talks about gaps mainly 1/16" wide -- you telling me that filler in gaps that small will cause a problem?
IanDG
Edited 7/29/2004 11:06 pm ET by IanDG
HEy Ditch
I remember a few weeks ago we were talking here about finishes on Pine etc floors, but I dont recall you in the conversation unfortunatly.
I tried one room I finished flooring with Eastern white Pine 10-15" sq this winter with square edges and face nailed w/ rose heads.
I HATEEE Tung oil finishes now. Thank god I didnt do the whole house.
I JUST ordered almost 1700sq feet of the same stuff from Timberknee.
I want that soft look but not the hassles of 100%Tung oil which is what Carlisle sold me...duhhh.so suck.
Seems to attract dust and is too soft for a pine floor IMO.
Tell me what YOU recommend.
Thanks
Be floored
andyThe secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
....leave 'em alone...
Ditch
......... and let them fill up naturally with dust and grit!
IanDG
Edited 7/19/2004 12:57 pm ET by IanDG
Wood moves.Ditch
The gaps WILL fill up with grit, etc -- so which looks better? -- TimberMate filler or crap?
IanDG
periodic good vacuuming will take care of any grit, but if the floor is not rock stable or there is expansion w humidity, the cupping that results isn't going away without sanding even if the filler just expels w/o cupping, it may break up the finish coat along the seams and stains will set into the wood over time
woodfiller is safe on the long seams during installation, filling a production snipe that took out some of the edge
Dear me, all the floors I've filled over the years and now I find out that I don't know what I'm talking about!
There's an old proverb that seems very apposite here"The man who says it can't be done shouldn't get in the way of the man doing it"
IanDG
hi ian-
no need to be so sensitive, no one's finding fault w you this is a professional forum where trades can go for help in doing a job or fixing a problem; per your post,nothing was ever said about your not knowing what you're doing, or that it couldn't be done
what my post and others said was that if a floor is filled on the long seams, and a humidity spike is encountered, swelling of the floor can cause cupping if filler expels, that can damage the finish as well
don't know what area of the country you're from, could be very dry and wood never moves, in that case i stand corrected in this region and others i've worked in, have sanded floors to remove cupping or correct cracking poly caused by filler in long seams around here a damp spring or lot of concentrated rain in a short period is usually the culprit
i have to agree with you that the floor filled has a better appearance, but there's no way to know what floor is safe to fill and which is not the refinisher is responsible for damage caused have seen the insurance claims and r&r of entire floors that resulted from this, seems like a big gamble to take
anyway, having seen this i'd prefer to alert someone who's asking for help so they don't get in a jam don't know where the original post came from, but if you're both from the same area, maybe you can tell them that filler is safe and poses no problems for them
best regards
Ed has already said that the gaps are an average of only 1/16" wide. Your advice not to fill gaps this small is plain wrong.
The other thing that neither you nor Luvditch have addressed is the danger of panellisation if the coating is allowed to run down into the joints -- how do you intend to prevent that, with it's attendant danger of split boards and broken tongues if there is movement?
IanDG
Edited 7/30/2004 1:41 am ET by IanDG
Hi Ian-
you seem to be under a lot of stress
have a contract w an insurance company for corrective work, see a lot of these floors, was a lot of damage in spring of 2003 when we had more rain than sun for about a month... you state that there is no danger in filling a floor w 1/16" gaps, and that i am wrong have been in homes where some of the floors were refinished and filler incorporated in the long seams they heaved w cupping resulting, had to be R&R on the refinisher's dime, expensive gamble other rooms not refinished in the homes w spaces from tight to 1/16" or more were fine i don't know if that makes me right, but it does make filling those floors wrong it's hard to talk in absolutes about wood fiber pretty much it will do what it wants under climate and moisture conditions
if these small gaps shrank and cupped, your secret recipe of "36 grit cut w the grain" filler wouldn't have worked under those conditions; it would have caused additional damage
in some areas rope caulking is used on old plank floors i wouldn't use it around here, but it must work in those regions because they've been doing it for centuries along those lines, when we place a new floor of wide planks, we space ea course w thin metal washers floor swells under humidity, returns to normal in drier times, no cupping, no damage
re wood filler, i use mostly woodwise or make my own have used timbermate, good product but even they recommend their goods for filling the end grain only(butt joints) as do the other manufacturers the end grain, lengths, are more stable
you mention having ho's address humidity conditions... some of the wide plank floors w the metal washer spacers described above have been installed in multi million dollar homes w expensive environmental controls they still swelled under extraordinary conditions, but settled back as the weather dried your advice to have the client stabilize the humidity isn't going to cut it when a humidity spike occurs, there isn't much control over it
re: "panelization" it doesn't exist with polyurethane a glue bond from wood glue or the equivalent is necessary for panelization poly is a finish coating and wouldn't "glue up" the work anymore than latex paint it breaks free as soon as the floor is walked on or temperature expand/contracts this came up at a trade show for coatings manufacturers i attended for an insurer their tech people explained that while poly can cause weak "sticking" between courses, it is not a glue bond and made the comparison to latex paint
if you're in the dry southwest, it may be stable enough there to work as you do having seen so many damaged floors, i would be reluctant to tell people that they can absolutely fill floors, hate to see someone get hurt financially
Best Regards
"re: "panelization" it doesn't exist with polyurethane"
Read this article from NOFMA about panelization -- particularly their statements that edge-bonding by the coating is one of the causes and that filling joints 3/32" or less can prevent it.
With regard to your blanket assertion that polyurethane can't cause edge-bonding, a reputable organisation such as NOFMA says it can -- timber flooring manufacturers in Australia such as Sotico and Boral state that it can -- coatings manufacturers in Australia produce sealers specifically designed to prevent it happening.
"if these small gaps shrank and cupped, your secret recipe of "36 grit cut w the grain" filler wouldn't have worked under those conditions; it would have caused additional damage"Take the trouble to read what I said before rushing in to criticise -- did I say this method was for small gaps?
"you seem to be under a lot of stress"
Please don't make personal remarks -- if you can't be civil then don't bother to reply.
IanDG
Hi Ian-
you're right about the chemical manufacturers taking corrective action w their products to eliminate the problem of panelization that's what the reps told us when someone inquired about it, they likened the glue bond of today's polys to that of latex paint don't understand why you'd bring up panelization as a concern when aware, as stated in your post, that the chemicals had been modified to correct it this is a professional forum where we try to help one another
re nofma's writings on panelization, guess i was going by information which seemed to be cutting edge technology direct from the manufacturers to correct a problem had heard about panelization, rare condition, but never saw it in person what's your take on it? have you seen it recently or heard of it being an issue for anyone?
nope, you didn't say your secret recipe was for small gaps the point, which apparently did not convey, was that filler of any kind was the last thing the failed floors in my post needed you posted i was wrong in advising against filling the 1/16" gaps, but the refinishers who did so on those floors lost out don't care to see a job go poorly for anyone, no one deserves a financial loss btw, the craftmanship and machine work otherwise was very good on those jobs, and i feel that a tradesman of your stature would approve the level of quality
everyone has a secret recipe: that's how i refer to my adding edger dust to loose filler to thicken a mix to fill abandoned holes in the floor, such as for old antenna wire it still takes successive coats, but quite a bit of time is taken off the drying process with yours, someone mentioned that it might not be a good idea to fill a loose floor that much how do you feel about that? my concern would possibly be with retention of the material in a very large gap ever have a problem with it spalling out?
re that you seem to be under a lot of stress, it is not a personal or uncivil remark at all rather, you seem to be quite sensitive to a position other than your own, and appear to be somewhat combative in responding to people to the point of upbraiding them i base this of course on what appears to be a contrast in the usual jovial nature between the majority of posts on this site and those from yourself i do hope that this was a misperception on my part; certainly there was no intent to offend you
you're right about the chemical manufacturers taking corrective action w their products to eliminate the problem of panelizationI didn't say that -- I said they had brought out a sealer to prevent it. If you don't use the sealer it will still happen.
heard about panelization, rare condition, but never saw it in person .... have you seen it recently or heard of it being an issue for anyone? There are several discussions on the subject in the Floormasters board -- a forum for professional floor layers and finishers in America. It seems they come across it frequently -- as I have.
it might not be a good idea to fill a loose floor that much how do you feel about that? I feel that any flooring contractor who refinished, let alone filled, a loose floor without securing it first shouldn't be in the trade.
you seem to be quite sensitive to a position other than your own,Let me see, you disagree not just with me but with Hardwood flooring manufacturers who say it's a problem, coating manufacturers who make a special sealer to avoid this "non-existent" problem, a whole host of flooring professionals who have dealt with this problem and you call ME "sensitive to a position other than your own"!!
IanDG
while a I'm a bit late in posting this, your situation is exactly the description of my house: 1903 construction, gaps in original oak floor, with pine/fir upstairs. That's the way they did it in my area back then. I also wanted to fill the gaps...in fact I went through and did it by hand after the floor guy left. Expansion in the summer pushed it all out. It's the nature of the floor. The floor guy tried to explain it to me, but I was the usual blockhead. we sanded and finished with 3 coats of polyurethane. floor condition has held up fine. Guy did an excellent job.
Just want to share a problem we ran into with a good oak floor about 20 years younger than yours when we went to stain it. (I am told this is a common problem.)
The theory goes that over the years different "spills" and polishes, Murphy's soap, etc have penetrated the wood in certain areas where the finish has worn off and general living and cleaning have continued. So the floor you see after sanding is not the same porosity (?) throughout.
The problem is that regardless of how great the sanding job is the stain goes on "blotchy", showing these areas that have been filled with who-knows-what.
Our solution was to "go dark"; that is, to put the dark stain on with a large brush and not wipe it off. After it had dried (about 3 days), we applied the poly. I have since seen several such dark floors in old house pictures. I wonder if that was the reason.
have a wood floor arig from the 30's and an addition w/ new oak floor. used COLOR PUTTY, it is soft, does not harden, and can be mixed with other colors to get the right color. But wipe the area clean as the smudges will show. I have used other fillers and puttys and think this is the best. Try to avoid the minwax colored putty as it is a little sticky and grainy. Ace hardware< I believe, sells color putty. Good luck
jwinko