Ok we are in the process of buying a new place (1975) ranch. Needs some work and I plan on doing 90% of it, I am a finish carpenter/GC so hopefully I know what I’m doing. Most of the time I see the products going in but never really get to see the durability of the products.
So my question is how does a cherry (most likely Brazilian cherry) or an oak wood floor hold up?
In our current house (1966) we have oak wood floors throughout all but one room (we ripped out carpet) is covered with wall to wall carpet it was that way when we moved in. The floors squeaks like crazy (some of it is joists but mostly it’s wood or the nails in the wood floor) , the one room with bare wood has a lot of 1/16″ gaps (shrinkage?) and looks like no finish.
We have been planning to put wood in the new house: Kitchen,dining,entry,hallway about 800 sq/ft.
I put down tile in our current house for the most part I like it except when you drop something. We had friends over this weekend and made a comment on how tile was so nice and better than wood. So now the wife is asking well should we do tile or wood?
Anyway I think the wood will hold up fine the finish takes the beating, we have a big dog and live in a sandy part of the country. So just looking for some feedback or opinions. I know it is personal choice and depends on the look we are going for( craftsman style house) I like the wood but a slate or stamped concrete would go nice too. Thanks for reading my long post.
Replies
I vote for wood... Be sure to let it dry completely before you nail it down. Don't be skimpy on nails. (That's the problem with that squeaky floor.) And give it at least 5 coats of oil based urethane. Follow the directions on the paint can and thin the first coat.
Joe, I hope you don't take offense here, but I am going to disagree with most of what you just said, except the part about wood being my first choice. You don't clarify what you mean by completely dry, but standards in the milling industry range from 6 to 9% MC. In some places and seasons, that is far too dry to install a floor. It must reach a similar condition to the rest of the material it will be mated to. That usually means stickering it for tne days to three weeks on site. I like to run a dehumidifier this tiome of the year because it is so humid here. Otherwise the flooroing will shrink later.But if you bring in factory fresh "completely dry flooring in August in a humid climate and lay it immmediately, the floor will buckle as it absorbs moisture from the air and other materials around it.then the number of nails used has less to do with squeaks than the location ( noit too close to ends) and whether the flooring is fairly snug when driven home.The last line about finishing is what floored me. Most manufacturers do NOT recomend thinning the first coat, though some of us do so with some oil based floor finishes.but five coats would likely be a disaster. Too much build will result in a softer floor finish, less likely to resist scratches, because the middle coats are removed from ozygen and can not cure properly. The only way five coats would do well is if a week or more were allowed for each coat to cure before applying the next coat.
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Joe, I hope you don't take offense here, but I am going to disagree with most of what you just said, except the part about wood being my first choice.
You don't clarify what you mean by completely dry, but standards in the milling industry range from 6 to 9% MC. In some places and seasons, that is far too dry to install a floor. It must reach a similar condition to the rest of the material it will be mated to. That usually means stickering it for tne days to three weeks on site. I like to run a dehumidifier this tiome of the year because it is so humid here. Otherwise the flooroing will shrink later.
OK I'm not taking offense and you got me on this one. I did mean what you said here. When I buy wood it's far from 0% MC and I don't have a moisture meter. I just let the wood acclimate to the place it's going to be used.
But if you bring in factory fresh "completely dry flooring in August in a humid climate and lay it immmediately, the floor will buckle as it absorbs moisture from the air and other materials around it.
then the number of nails used has less to do with squeaks than the location ( noit too close to ends) and whether the flooring is fairly snug when driven home.
I'm sure you have put down more floors than me but the ones I put down don't squeak and I didn't skimp on the nails.
The last line about finishing is what floored me. Most manufacturers do NOT recomend thinning the first coat, though some of us do so with some oil based floor finishes.
Years ago I called and talked to the chemist at for Touraine Paint and he suggested thinning the first coat of Polyurethane. I've been doing it ever since and have had much better luck with the urethane staying stuck to the floors of my apartments.
but five coats would likely be a disaster. Too much build will result in a softer floor finish, less likely to resist scratches, because the middle coats are removed from ozygen and can not cure properly. The only way five coats would do well is if a week or more were allowed for each coat to cure before applying the next coat.
I've heard this before-- As an experiment I gave a short well used hall way in one of my buildings 10 coats of urethane just to see how it would hold up. Now after maybe 20 years it looks great. (Except where some movers dragged a metal cabinet and gouged the floor.) I now always go with 4 to 5 coats. Recoating as soon as it's dry enough to walk on. 12 to 24 hours. Maybe I'm doing something wrong but 3 coats won't even fill in the grain and I'm very happy with the results. I always get a wow when new tenants see the floors. BTW these floors are seldom waxed by tenants. I always wax about a month or two after the last coat of urethane and between tenants.
I've not heard of or used that brand of poly but if three coats won't fill the grain, something is wrong. I'm filled on second and building on third coat.I often thin first coat on th etheory that it lets the material penetrate the wood better, but i have also seen articles stating that it does nothing like that for all practical purposes. The solids still stay within the same couple of thousanths of an inch in the surface, according tho whoever wrote it. but I was refering to the cans and written instructions which generally say not to thin it.And that only applies to the oil based.
I would have no hesitation using secveral coats of water based - except thatit would look like a plastic sheet instead of bringing out the beauty of the wood.The more I think about it, your brand of poly must be thinner than those I use ( Minwax or Zip) with dry accelerators, to be able to cure so fast and to need so many coats to fill.
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Touraine Paint was a small local brand. I think they went out of business since I haven't seen them for years. The last time I finished a floor I used California FloorAthane oil modified Polyurethane. Do you use a roller with urethane? That might make the difference in the coverage. I use a brush. It's more work but I didn't like the results when I tried a roller. To thick and not smooth enough.
I used water based urethane once when the tenant that was moving in was pregnant and I know the smell from the oil can linger for weeks. I hated the results. The floor scratched very easily and dusted constantly. Maybe I used a bad brand, maybe they've improved the water base stuff but I still don't like what it looks like for a floor.
I use a brush and sand scuff it lightly between coats, vacumn and go again. My subs doing it use a lambswool applicator and brush edges.I did water based twice that I remember. One was a whole house redo, and the owners got a hurry up and move notice from previous landlord, upping my schedule in a big hury, so we decided to do the floors with a water based poly. I worked nearly around the clock and had three coats on two stories of about a 900 s ft house. They moved in the next day and I finished a couple of window casings later that week.that was my first water and I liked the quick cure, but did not likethe plastic fake appearanmce. This was on heart pine, which I love, especially when the deep amber tones come out to play when the oil finishes invite it to. The water plastic cover dulls them. So I stayed away for a few years.Then I built a garage with studio apt above with all maple flooring. again a tight scedule, and the flooring guy I hirted to do the fionishing wanted to go with a water based. He claimed his brand was more friendly on the eyes and complimentary to the wood. It did look better than some others I have seen, and this was a white wood anyway so I OKd it. The job was so well and smoothly done that it earned a left handed compliment from a woman who asked, "What brand of linoleum is that? It looks so much like real wood!" It has been wearing fairly well, last I heard.Curiously enough, I was just visiting last weekend with a client about a new remo job and she asked if there was anything I could do to help her posts on her four poster bed. They had been made out of nicely figured maple and cut on an octogon, but yuou could barely recognize the figuring because it was finished with what looked like a water based poly or lacquer, clouding and hiding the wood. The same craftsman had made her another bed for another house and she ordered this one becasue of admiring it, but the original was "golden and deep" in it's finish. I told her I was sure it was the diff between oil and water finish
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>>Most manufacturers do NOT recomend thinning the first coat,...
Actually Piff, manufacurers dont recommend thinning any coat. I've been through this over and over with every finish from conversion varnishes to polyurathanes and paints. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and accuse finish manufacturers of misleading all of us so we wont use anything that will result in us using (purchasing) less of their product.
I believe thinning the first coat will help the finish penetrate deeper. Do a test sample both ways then cross cut after they dry. the difference will be obvious.
That golden patina you speak of on your wood floors (ambering) is only the yellowing of your polyurethane. Its not traditionally complimentary to the wood species. Poly is not held in such high regard with your local historical society.
I repaced some trim in a house built in the 1600's. Historical registry, the owner would'nt even let me use shellac, only carnuba. You'd be surprised what kind of finish you could achieve with just a paste wax. Its like spit shining a shoe.
i'm not sure if we understand eaach other at all. First, I have done the test you mention and found no observable difference. I'm not arguiong against thinning that first coat. I have done it too on the same theory and because it is a normal practice with many, buit I find no objective reason for doing it other than habit.and then I never mentioned any golden or yellowing - amber is a red tone, not a yellow one. it is a trraditional colour. I get the same beautful amber tones using Waterlox, and other oils, not just with oil based poly.now shellac will bring on a yellowish tone...
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Our house has t&g oak floors from 1926. They're fine except where there was water damage. How well the finish lasts depends mainly on how it's used or abused, and how it's maintained. There's no reason a hardwood floor shouldn't last for hundreds of years.
-- J.S.
I highly recommend the wood but tile can look great too. I also have to say spend the money and buy top quality prefinished oak or the Brazilian Cherry you like. You just can't beat a factory applied uv baked finished floor. The Canadian brand I like is "Mirage". Just did about 700 square feet of the cherry for a lady a couple of month ago and it looks great. However when it came time to install spindles and handrailing wow, that stuff is hard like steel. I don't think I'll use it again if the job requires doing stairs, it was almost impossible to work with. Around here the red oak is about $6 per foot and the cherry is around $8 a foot. Good luck.
Have a good day
Cliffy
Edited 8/1/2005 6:56 pm ET by cliffy
Thanks for the reply. I have heard good and bad about pre-finished guess it depends on the brand and quality of finish. Usually the finish is better than the done in the field stuff. Not sure I like the look of all the seams (plank like) of a prefinished versus the continuous flow of a unfinished material. The wife is leaning towards a rough hand planed look for a prefinished floor. My concern is what it looks like 10-15 years later, how do you go about re-doing a finish on that?
In th esame house where I just refered to a four poster bed, they have rough barn plank style flooring, suggested by their archy just four years ago. It looks pretty in a picture, but it is almost impossible to clean, tearing up mops and sponges. one of the items on the list for that job is to either grind to refinish it smooth or to tear it up and replace it.
I can say from past observations that you will see wear at high traffic areas and it will stay rough at corners and bnehind/under furniture. Next time around, you will be in the same dilema as this client.
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I installed 2300 sq ft of Brazalian cherry four years ago throughout 1959 ranch (everywhere except the bathrooms and basement). I coated with 3 coats of poly and have noticed no visible wear, even in the kitchen where my kids are constantly spilling water. Brazilian cherry is very hard, relatively stable, and should provide years of high quality service (assuming proper finishing). Watch out for the area rugs though, the floors will darken where they are not covered and distinct variations will be visible. Good Luck!
A lack of visible wear is to be creditied to the poly finish, not to the material chosen
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My living room is 9 years and two twins old and it still looks almost like new. The only job I ever did in the last 20 years where there was a problem is a house where I did about 1500 feet of prefinished red oak. Whenever the lady arrived home from work her 15 year old greyhound would do a Fred Flinstone with his paws on the floor and made a few scratches.
Have a good day
Cliffy
I did a couple of floors recently at home. One was a clip together, Pergo type. Didn't like the look of it when it went down. Don't like the way it's holding up. (Wheels on one piece of furniture are wearing through the finish.) The second one I did was real wood (oak) veneer plywood. The grain is much nicer; it looks like what it is - real wood. There's no duplication of grain. There's no plank look either because the pieces are flat. That's in the office and I can see where the plastic wheels from the office chair are making a mess of it. The plywood is real thin. My choice next time will be the prefinished wood - can't beat the simplicity of it. But I want full thick 3/4 wood. Keep the engineered stuff.
Carpet is nice on the feet, but it's too permanent, captures too much dirt, sand and junk and it looks bad after a while. (Area rugs are nicer and easier to change.) Tile works best near the doors and in the bathroom. Wouldn't the style of your house be more in accordance with wood anyway?
Good luck.
To get back to your orginal question tile or wood, I would say it depends. If there are kids involved who play soccer and walk through the house with their cleets on..tile.
wood is beautiful and will last forever but it needs a lot of care. Someone here recommended poloplaz to me. http://www.poloplaz.com for wood floors. it is some very strong stuff.
I used their stain as well great stuff. but it takes a while to be able to enter the room. Its a o/b moisture cured poly. its very strong and durable (3 kids who play soccer and a angry wife)....
But it requires as a minimum 24 hours between each coat , I used 4 coats, and 3 days drying time before you can walk on it and 7-10 day (depending on weather ect)
before you can move your furniture in.
I applied mine with a paint roller and tipped it off with a brush. it flowed out beautifull when I tipped it.
Buckism: Will show you the the way
I work for a major carpet manufacturer and am sorry you are not considering carpet. There are many stylish and durable products available and carpet is verrrrrry easy to install and maintain. My sister pulled up all her carpet upstairs and replaced it with pre-finished hard wood. I stopped by her home one day and her boys were playing basketball in the driveway. Upon seeing some of my carpet samples while I was exited my car, they commented how they wished they had carpet vs. the wood. Wood, tile, or stone are trendy options right now, but don't overlook carpet - it is a great value compared to other flooring choices.
Jeff
Just one thing; if you've worked on tile floors (as in actually lived with a tile kitchen or been someone who had to stand on one all day) they hurt like heck after just a short time; the degree of pain rises with the age of the person standing on it. Low maintenance? Sure....Painful? Yep.
NotaClue
My tilesetter just installed 1200 sf of saltillo tiles, only 20% of which I would normally have accepted because the balance were so 'crowned'. His comment? "Your feet won't ache on these as the uneven-ness of the floor will make your muscles work". Good point.ciao for niao
To those who know - this may be obvious. To those who don't - I hope I've helped.
Rats. Bought dry cherry 5" plank flooring. Delivered to jobsite in July. Let sit in second floor of nearly finished house until December. Sealed ALL sides of planks with Benite. Sealed plywood underlayment with water-based polyurethane. Put down 15 lb tarpaper. Laid floor as tight as I could 1 ft nail spacings. Sanded, re-benite- put on three coats of two-part water based poly. (Daly's Product) NOW- August- there are many razorblade gaps showing between every other course or so. DANG! How in the world can I fix this? Resand- fill microcracks with sawdust, and re-finish?
This is on a second floor, above a dry, heated, insulated garage . Lots of sun. Central WA. 100 degree summers. Hopeless???????????
Central Wa? Yakima, Wider planks move more than say 3". Lay the floor let it sit for a week fill with paste finish sand and seal.
Nah- Leavenworth. Second floor, glass window wall, faces south and west. Shed roof, to boot- catches all the afternoon sun. the last week we saw some 100 degree days. I do not know how ANY wide plank floor can withstand this. But- I'll lightly resand and fill the tiny cracks w/ dust and re-coat. Yeehaw.
Who made the flooring, DD? I laid Bruce 5" wide T&G flooring in a kitchen/dining room a few months ago and was blown away when I read the installation instructions. They were very specific that boards wider than 3" must be glued - not nailed.
It took me two days to lay that rascal and I'll NEVER lay another glue-down floor!! - lol
Big dog and sand...tiles. BUT,a nd a big but, in 5 years' time the pattern you thought oh-so-cool will have dated. So now what do you do???
Wood - and I mean solid wood, not this engineered ply stuff - will last with due care and attention for keeps. And you can always glue lino down on it later (just kidding, sorta)
ciao for niao
To those who know - this may be obvious. To those who don't - I hope I've helped.