wood stove or pellet stove
ManuelLabor79
| Posted in Energy, Heating & Insulation on
Any suggestions for alternative heating ( wood or pellet stove) and installation requirements any info be helpful thanks
Replies
Lotta variables, gotta give more info to go on. Like, do you have a 'free' (your labor only) source of wood or ya gotta buy it? How big, how insulated.
However, just got back from CT and most folks there are contemplating some type of wood-burner this year as many are on oil heat.
Piffin is the NE woodburner expert.
You can go all the way from a small 2 ft model to a water walled fireplace with hydronic heat or outside wood boiler.
just curious... does anyone burn coal? and how does it stack up vs wood? can you feed coal like you do pellets? and since i believe you know... what about the ash left from coal...
curious but think'n.... it's easier to have them load my dumptruck with coal than it is for me to load it with wood...
thanks
P
<does anyone burn coal?> Yeah, but should they?<and how does it stack up vs wood?> coal is a pain to stack<can you feed coal like you do pellets?>No, seriously on this one, if you fill your pellet burner with coal that will be the last time you ever fill it. OTOH, I know a number of people burning pellets in coal burners, mostly outdoor hydronic units. Not as effecient a burn as a pellet stove and more ash, but it does work. <what about the ash left from coal...>hard to deal with. I have an outdoor hydronic pellet furnace (made by Woodmaster in Red Lake Falls MN) and I go through about 14 ton of pellets a year (waste from a local oatmeal and granola factory, actually). The ash is a bit fluffy, but in a rural area lots of farmers are eager to have it spread out on the field. Don't try that with coal. Just to note, I've got no connection to Woodmaster, I just like my stove. J
There are actually combination coal/pellet units. They are the same technology and use the pea-coal. The chamber has to be more rugged for the higher heat of coal and I wouldn't burn coal in a pellet unit, but otherwise no problems. The coal can be kept outside since rain does not penetrate it.
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I spent three winters with a coal stove.
Truth is there is a very good reason everyone use to burn coal.
Once lit you can keep it going for days and days.
Heat output is far greater then wood.
Also it is cheap. That said -
It's hard to get lit.
Heat output will drive you out of the house.
Even with a very nice stove, by spring everything in the house had a layer of dust.
And oh yeah your killing the planet.
most electric power is generated by the burning of coal... (something to think about when you go to plug in your "green" electric car)... I know it's hard to start....
so for a remote outside boiler? just curious... how often do you have to add coal to the fire vs wood?
thanks for your input...
p
Hard coal is a bad option for an outside boiler ( I'm installing one on the job, this week) because it needs a shaker grate to really burn well.
I've never seen a grate rigged up like that on one of them.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dj_oEx4-Mc4
The world of people goes up and
down and people go up and down with
their world; warriors have no business
following the ups and downs of their
fellow men.
I'm surprised.The basement coal boilers have all the automatic stuff, shaker and auger - why not an exterior unit?
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There is no ele. going to the unit we are installing. All the draft and water valves are bimetal temp controlled.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dj_oEx4-Mc4
The world of people goes up and
down and people go up and down with
their world; warriors have no business
following the ups and downs of their
fellow men.
Not nearly as often. It burns nice and hot and long.
Honestly, wood seemed a pain after the coal stove. You
can turn it down to a medium simmer that will last for hours,
while pumping out heat.
My stove could run for about six days before I'd have to let it go out
so I could empty the ashes.
So, one major fire lighting episode a week. I don't know anything about using it in an outside boiler.
Edited 9/30/2008 8:08 pm ET by McSameVsOblabla
how do u light it?
thanks i've never burned coal... but in these times it's good to know about stuff you might have to use
p
Pop heated with coal till 1955, still remember him going downstairs every morning in underwear and shoes to shovel in more coal. The rich folks had stokers.
We got our coal from the mine 4 blocks from the house for $3 TO $5 A TON, when pop made about 50 cents and hour. A ton lasted about 3 months in uninsulated 1200 sq ft house.
Cent IL is high sulpher, us kids would bust up lump coal to get the galena and pyrite ' gold and silver" nuggets, and give them to the girls at school.
Last place I saw actually saw coal being burned for heating or atmosphere was in a bar in Linlithgow, Scotland a few years back when I was there in the Winter, still recall the acrid, but somehow pleasing form childhood, smell. Still have some coal for forging, but have never even considered burning it for heat, as alway had 'free' wood.
We always lit a coal fire with dry corncobs over a small kindling starter.
DW's folks also heated with coal till the mid 50's, she recalls mostly how dirty it made the house and having to clean the wallpaper every spring with 'erasers'.
Central IL homes all had 3+" wide sills over all interior doors, pop said that was to collect coal dust where it could not be seen.
thanks... somehow i knew u'd know...
at the powerplant here (tva allen steam plant) it's coal fired but they also burn old tires... i get my blasting media (grit) from them it use to be "black beauty" but now it's greenish... was told it's from the burn'n tires... think i pay $16 per ton for it... i'm sure they have some type of scrubber because all you see is steam from the plant... don't know if i could even buy the coal but sure alot of barges float'n by with it...
thanks
p
I have burned some coal in my basement wood stove here.For those really cold winter nights - put it in just before bed.What I do to control dust is bag it up in a brown paper grocery bag, then carry it in and put the close bag right in the fire. Burns hotter and longer than wood. When you get pea coal or 3/4" coal, for an auto-feeder, you can get it bagged and oiled which helps keep dust down.It is about 55% of the electricity that is made from coal in this country, next best is natgas which is trying to catch up.
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Does the chimney belch out black smoke the whole time you're burning coal? jt8
Nope. Do smell the arcid odor though
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Hey all,
Bought a pellet stove last year off craigslist. We own a small house, only 1100sf ranch. In 2006 we used only oil heat and got 150 gallons about 3 times during the year.
Bought the pellet stove in '07 and use it mostly in the late afternoon and thru the night to heat the house.....we went thru 2.5 tons last year TOTAL.
Last year pellets here in Massachusetts we're going for $240 - $270 a ton....this year I cant find them.
I've got one ton sitting in my basement and I paid $300 for them.
Pellets are great....fill the hopper and it'll go all day without looking at it.
Best investment I made for my home. Unless I cant find them this year, then I go back to wood.
Wowee!! $270 a ton for pellets. Is that bulk or bagged?I bought mine for this coming winter last week. $50 per ton bulk. It's a food processing waste product, not wood, so that likely makes some difference. I was grumpy because they were up from $35 last year. I've never actually burned wood pellets in this stove so I couldn't even make a comparison. J
$300/ton
50 bags of 40#'s make up a ton.
Last year....all over the place at $250 or so a ton.....this year $300 a ton and I cant find them.
OK, that makes more sense. Bagged wood pellets are in that range in my area too. I guess packaging is everything. Worth it if you don't have (or want) bulk hauling and a storage bin of some sort. J
You light a wood fire and bring it up to a pretty high temp.
I found it worked best to build up a good bed of coals first.
Usually I was to impatient for that and threw just a couple of
pieces of coal in. That seamed to require more fussing around,
as the wood had to be fed and the coal was in the way.
But if you just wait and get a nice bed of coals going then drop the coal on top it lights pretty easy. Then it works great. Add coal as needed and turn the shaker grate
once or twice a day. That's it.
get a coal unit designed with hopper and auger feeder. That keeps the feed going
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I've heated with coal & wood for the past 16 years. I have a hand fed Harmon Mark III in the basement of our 2000 sq ft ranch house. Years ago i burned 75% wood and 25% coal. Last year was just the opposite. For me coal is much easier than wood. It will take 2 to 2-1/2 tons of nut coal per year to heat. This year it cost about $200/ton. It helps a lot on the price to be close to the PA anthracite mines.It's fairly easy to get lit, just start a small wood fire & slowly add coal until it covers the firebox area and then fill it deep to the top of the firebrick. Once it is burning its just a matter of shaking it down in the morning and adding coal and doing the same in the evening. I usually empty the ash pan out in the morning. Unlike someone else mentioned, I have no problem with dust, even in the basement. Bringing in loads of wood is much messier for me than bringing in 5 gallon buckets of coal. Coal is easier to store than wood since it doesn't care if it gets wet (an even bigger issue with pellets).The design of the stove has a lot to do with the success of keeping a good fire going for a long time. Anthracite coal likes its combustion air to come from the bottom of the coal bed so any over the fire air should be eliminated. If I get too old for the hand fed, I'll graduate to a coal stoker.
Depends what you want it for. If you want backup heat when the power is out the pellets not gonna do it. If you have a wood source than that would make sense. If you plan to buy your fuel and aren't worried about power outages the pellet might be better. I have a fireplace and an airtight woodburner and burning wood is messy. Also lots of free wood for the cutting. Most the time I just set the thermostat and let the heat pump do it's thing.
just set the thermostat and let the heat pump do it's thing
Good point and others. ML79 is only 28, so he has a good 30 years of wood burning capability ahead of him -- cuttin' and splittin' wood is better and much more productive exercise than jogging or going to the gym; and, it heats you TWICE!
However, when SWMBO hit 60, she put her foot down and said she was not going to cut and split her 7 cords of FW per year anymore, so we put in a HP <G>.
Yeah, I hit sixty a few years back, that's probably why I don't burn wood like I used to.
I've heard they have a little blue pill to help with that sort of ignition problem.
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I'm less of an expert than I used to be, since the pellet stoves have been developed and evolved since I sold wood burners back in 79-81.
But I was just educating myself lately to keep up for some design issues on future projects.Some of the variables are lifestyle and some are cost, and others have to do with space issues.A pellet stove will take up less living space in your house because the higher tech nature makes it safer and they can be built to install close to combustible wallls. The chimney is smaller and less expensive also compared to wood or coal solid fuel burners.Buty the stove itself can be more expensive.If you are buying your wood or pellets, then the pellet stove is less expensive to fuel for a nujber of reasons. Cost per BTU is equivalent to wood, but it is easier to ship, store, and handle the pellets, and sionmce the pelet stoive burns cleaner and makes efficient use of the fuel being on demand thermostat, it will cost less to run.
But if you have a free source of wood you cut yourself, the wood stove heat is 80% less expensive to fuel.( it is not entirely free because of cost to cut and haul and store and split - chainsaws, trucks, and splitters use gasoiline.)Lifestyle - A wood stove will have a 'relationship' with you and your family like a bay that needs constant regular attention. The pellet burner will have a relationship more like the teenager that you see come and go occasionally while food disappears from the fridge - less time consuming commitment. You feed it once every day or two and take out the ash once a week. But th ewood stove needs to be fueled regularly, emptied, and monitored.So if you are on the go a lot, and you buy the fuel, the pellet stove makes more sense.But if you want heat when the power goes out, and you can provide the fuel, and have time and inclination to tend to the hearth, the wood stove is the obvious choice.Between the two are a world of optional things that influence this. There are pellet burning furnaces you can design into a basement for instance - even combo coal/pellet furnaces or boilers.Another point to consider - because pellet stoves are gaining popularity, there will be occasional spot shortages of pellets as the industry adapts to demand. as I understand it, most of the pellet stoves are already sold out for this year too.Me - I have about nine acres of woods, and sometimes clean up lots for folks. I bought a log splitter and have a one ton dumper I can back to my back door walk out basement doors where the unit is installed about eight feet from where I sit at this PC.Don't know what I'll do in 15-20 years though when the truck and splitter are worn out and the appliance is burnt out.
Maybe climate change will have me wearing shorts in winter by then.
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We are going through the same decision process for our new home. Here's what we've learned:Pellet stoves are in such high demand that there is basically no inventory and factories are running at full speed but no way will they catch up in the near future. There are junk pellet stoves and junk pellets that cost nearly as much as the higher quality stoves and pellets.Harman is a very good pellet stove but was just acquired by the Home hearth Tech company who also makes/sells Quadrafire and there have been headaches for dealers and consumers as a result of the recent merger. Pellet stoves require maintenance and upkeep and can go through parts regularly depending on the brand. Pellet/corn stoves were popular until corn started to trade on par with gold.Pellet stoves are ideally suited to back up tight to a wall and vent through the wall or in a corner at an angle to allow the stovepipe to make a 90* bend and then go up through the ceiling or out the wall.Battery backup is available but an expensive and inelegant solution IMOSo, we are looking at the Lopi brand of wood stoves and have ordered a couple cords of wood for this year and look forward to getting some chainsaw time in next year...Good luck!
We heated 100% with wood for 20+ years. Always bought our wood. 8' lenths, we cut and split or cut split and delivered.
Very hard work and messy.
Great heat.
Last 3 years we have heated with a high end pellet stove.
Not the same heat, but alot less work and much cleaner.
Have had problems getting pellets or good pellets.
No heat without electric.
Extra white noise due to fan.
Thinking of going back to a wood burner.
Russell
"Welcome to my world"
Pellet Stoves are for sissies! There I said it.
Get a wood stove and rejion the "Men's Club". My lawyer requires me to clarify that I don't mean those incapable of useing a wood stove
or even moraly opposed to a wood stove. Just those choosing to turn their back on
on a tried and true heat source for "sissy" like reasons.
Define sissy.
:0
Russell
"Welcome to my world"
Us real men still live in a real cave, with an open fire out front, and the pellets come from the deer and rabbits.
and send your women out to bring in the downfalls for firewood
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It's the life, I tell ya!
so what kind of mileage are you getting out of your moccasins lately?
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The old ones have about had it, got a new set being chewed right now.
Not wanting to sound "old." In the 1970's we owned a two story cape cod home in Northern Virginia, three bedrooms, two baths upstairs. We purchased a "Buck Stove" insert. We purchased about 4 cords of wood for the winter. Hubby would bank (I hope this is the correct term) when he went to work and before we went to bed at night. At times the heat reached 90 degrees in the living room where the stove was located.
Once I received a call from our natural gas company asking if our meter had a problem as our readings were so low. I explained we had a "Buck Stove." Oh, she said and thanked me for my reply.
Again, not wanting to sound "old", this same discussion was on the former site about 15 years old.
Hey, people get with it. It's going to be very costly to use electricity, oil and gas for the next 10 years, my guess. The stock market is in trouble, causing higher fuel prices.
I don't live in our former house anymore. I heat by electricity only. I'm going to have to wear sweaters, socks, heavy pants to keep warm to save money. This is not a fun time for the USA.
Good Luck Everyone
I heat by electricity only
Hope you do not mean resistance heat only - if so, consider a HP.
We spoke with a shop that sold both wood & pellet. The shop claimed that the higher up in elevation you go the less efficacy in heat with pellets. Any truth to this statement. We need some type of burner @ the cave 10,200 above sea level.
I never heard that about the pellet stoves and altitude. But I don't care for the pellet stoves for the reasons others have stated here, plus I don't think they heat very well down here at 5500'.
If you have reasonable access to firewood, a wood heater 'wood' get my vote.
Especially if you can get the ladies to fetch the firewood.
With the Pine Beetle infestation should be enough wood to go around for the next 20 years. Think we have 2 -3 cords from what we cleared from the lot.
We checked out a nice stove made by a company called Scan, anderson 8-2. Nice but $2K. Unless my Powerball ticket covers it, it's only a Pipe Dream!
Edited 9/21/2008 11:59 pm by G80104
That pellet stove heats more by convection while a wood stove has more radiant heat.so I can imagine a theory where the lower air density at higher elevations would reduce heat transfer slightly, but not enough to make an impact on the decision.My guess is simply that at those elevations, it gets far colder and you need more heat. The wood stove can FEEL warmer with the greater radiant, so it is subjective.
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higher up in elevation you go the less efficacy in heat with pellets
As Piffin said, forced air vs. radiant primary heat transfer is the reason.
Air is 68% as dense at sea level. I do a lot of work on heat transfer from electronics in airplanes, where at 45,000 ft or above the density number is only 14% of STP, and the way that is handled is to change the fan speed and pitch and blade design.
Thus, if you are at 10,200 ft, your "shop" selling stoves at 10,200 ft 'should' know enough to just change the fan blades on the stoves they sell for ya 'cloud dwellers'.
Depending if you have a blower or axial fan, you can just bend the blades on an axial for more pitch. Measure the current your fan draws and bend the blades till the power level is the same as that at sea level andy you will be close to moving the same number of pounds of air per minute. Do not know if any pellet stoves have a belt drive, but you can easily increase the speed at altitude, common practice in the HVAC industry.
here is a quick google hit on the subject.
http://books.google.com
Thanks for the info!
Looking more towards wood, lots of dead pine due to the beetle outbreak in the rocky mt. area!
Pine is what my dad has always burned, it was what was most available.
It does the job.
I am currently splitting and stacking firewood for the 2009/10 season. My family prefers the wood heat. I have access to the wood so not a big deal.Although the older I get the more I dislike the yearly ordeal of cutting hauling splitting stacking etc.
I built my 2500 sq ft house on 1988 bought a new Regency stove for $1100 still in use today. Might change the fire brick next year.
Around here they are selling cord wood for over 200.00 a cord so if you don't have the wood I don't think it's cost effective
Wild salmon don't eat pellets and neither does my wood stove?
Around here they are selling cord wood for over 200.00 a cord so if you don't have the wood I don't think it's cost effective
Clarify your 'cord'. Is it really a cord --> 4' high by 4' deep by 8' long?
Or is it a half cord --> 4' high by 2' deep by 8' long
Or is it a face cord --> 4' high by 12-18" deep by 8' long
A face cord can be 30% the volume of a 'real' cord.
jt8
"Another point to consider - because pellet stoves are gaining popularity, there will be occasional spot shortages of pellets as the industry adapts to demand. as I understand it, most of the pellet stoves are already sold out for this year too."There have been more than "occasional" spot shortages around here. EVERY year, pellets are scarce. If you don't get 'em in July and August, you don't get 'em. I see the "No Pellets" signs starting in October and am glad I burn the old fashioned kind of wood. Although I do admit the cleanliness and convenience would be nice. Of course, pellet stoves still need power~ that's one of the primary reasons I keep my old woodstove. I can keep the whole house toasty warm with that thing. No current needed.
i appreciate your thoughts and opinion and will use it in making my decision thanks
We had pellets on order for 2 months. Store called and said they will not be getting any shipments.
Started shopping around and other stores were saying same thing.
Found a Menards store with 10 ton selling at $205.00 per ton.
Home Depot only had 3 ton selling at $279.00 a ton.
Home Depot price matched Menards plus additional 10% = $184.50 per ton.
Picked up 3 ton today.
Great deal.
Russell
"Welcome to my world"
What type of pellets?
Wood, Corn, other?
Rabbit.
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I wonder if dryed properly if they would burn? :)
Russell
"Welcome to my world"
Given their reputation for breeding activity, I'd be afraid of them going off like popcorn in the stove.
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perpetual fuel?
;)
Russell
"Welcome to my world"
Yes.But they would stink while doing so.
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Bummer.
I was thinkin of a new business.
Rabbitts for meat, pellets for fuel.
Russell
"Welcome to my world"
In many parts of the world they use 'pellets' of camel, cow, horse, goats, whatever, as fuel.Even to cook over.
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We may have to go that route here in good ole' Michigan.
You think cooking over it would change the flavor? HeHe.
Russell
"Welcome to my world"
Politicians are so full of #### that you could solve the energy crisis burning Polipellet's.
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Should be a big year for firewood .
I hadnt thought about it a lot except Ive been hearing about the sales of stoves being high. A guy said the other day his stove was backordered. That got me to thinking . Came on here and read this thread and find theres not enough pellets.
We have pretty much outlawed coal here . Years back thats what made this area thrive . It was a coal community. Now we dont allow the minning .
Tim
"polipellet's"
Wow, imagine how they must smell. Whew!
Russell
"Welcome to my world"
And even in the afterlife the smoke from them behaves just like a Politician - needs to know which way the wind is blowing before it take a direction
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More truer words were never spoken.
Russell
"Welcome to my world"
Hard wood. (be nice).
Russell
"Welcome to my world"
Home Depot price matched Menards plus additional 10% = $184.50 per ton.
How long does a ton last? Are you burning 24/7?jt8
Pretty much 24/7. Stove is on t-stat so only fires when necessary. If it is very cold or windy the house just won't stay up to temp. We have natural gas furnance for when we really need it. 1 bag will last 1 or more days depending on wind and out door temp.
House is 1200sf ranch.
2 ton should last us all winter depending on the winter.
Only burned 2 cord of wood when we heated with wood.
Russell
"Welcome to my world"
Had a nice phone conversation with Duane (Sphere) last night and this subject was discussed. You gotta weigh your options but I guess for right now, wood seems to win out. The fuel is always going to be there, although it is more work.
Bear in mind that a pellet stove will not work without electricity to run the fan and the pellet feeder. It won't keep ya warm when an ice storm knocks your lines down.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not brought
low by this? For thine evil pales before that which
foolish men call Justice....
You've had lots of good advice above (including Piffin's pharmaceutical diversion), but in case it hasn't struck home, I'd summarize by saying that a wood stove is an active pursuit; a pellet stove is passive plug-and-play (well, almost).
At my age and situation, I'm still in full-blown wood stove mode. Twenty years from now the pellet option might be appealing.
Scott.
Always remember those first immortal words that Adam said to Eve, “You’d better stand back, I don’t know how big this thing’s going to get.â€
I've been researching and am thinking of getting a Wooodstock Soapstone Fireview stove.
Have to pull the trigger by Sept 30 for their $350. off sale. Sale price is $$$ $2369. but it is a very nice stove with rave reviews.
Anyone here have one?
http://www.woodstove.com/index.html
Friend has a palladian? Same company. He and his wife love it. They had upgraded from a steel/CI stove.jt8
ManualLabor79
you can source wood for a wood stove in many places. some free some near free and some darn expennsive.. but pellets are a manufactured item which has inherant equipment, location and distribution expenses built in..
The only real advantage of Pellets is the ease they can be used for long term heating..
My friends who tend to burn wood for winter heat keep a simple propane stove and tank as back up heat source.. when the wood fire goes out and temps drop below what's set the propane stove kicks on.
That way they can go away for a week or weekend and not have the pipes freeze. since they have a relatively large propane tank that's filled up as needed they can buy propane when it's ata low price rather than pay peak market prices for it..
They are going on their third winter on that tank without a fillup and don't expect to need one this year either..
They tend to leave every march for Florida where they have a time share and that is when the furnace gets it's only real steady use.. other wise the wood burning stove they use keeps the house warm and comfortable all winter ,long for up to 24 hours before it drops low enough to kick on the propane furnace..
You could do the same with a oil burner or with even electric heat as back up..
Edited 9/29/2008 10:45 pm ET by frenchy