TITEBOND¯ POLYURATHANE or TITEBOND¯ III ULTIMATE
i need to edge glue 6 pieces of 5″ wide, 1 1/2″ thick, 33″ long pieces of mahogony together for an outdoor project, i would like to use titebond III ultimate, is it a good choice for this project
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West system epoxy
thanks for the response-i think i am too lazy to use epoxy, either that or the learning curve is too much for me
but-i might give it a try some time
how much open time do you have when you work with it, do you have enough open time so you can glue up 6 pieces of lumber all at once to form a slab
also, is the squeeze out difficult to remove and will it effect the finishing
Depends on which hardener is used and the temperature, so open time is anywhere from 20 minutes to hours. Plenty of time for big glue ups, I use it alot for bent laminations.
Clean up is after it is dry with a sander. it drys clear ,gets good and hard so it doesn't gum up the paper like many other glues.
I'm sure the T# will work well also, report with results.
sounds like a good product-i will give it a try sometime
jayzog
according to Fine Wood Working titebond 111 tested stronger than epoxy.. Plius it's water proof! (and cheaper)
"titebond III ultimate"
Outperforms polyurethane according to recent testing - one of the best -
Jeff
thanks for the information, i went to home depot today and picked up some i have my mahogany panels glued up
If you haven't done the glue up yet, there's two things to do with TB III.
1. Wipe the joint down with a rag dampend (not soaking wet) with acetone, just before glue up.
2. Clamp for 24 hours for best result.
buic
I see you probably have this done already.
But for further education next time...
I would use epoxy too.
Part depends on whether this is true mahogany or one of th eimitations. Some of them have a lot of oils in the wood, which interfere with bonding occasionally.
That is why the rec to do a wipe down with acetone - removes the surface oil
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Piffin!
I can't believe this,, According to Fine Wood Working epoxy tested weaker than titebond 111.
Didn't you read the article where they tested the strength of glues?
One item skipped over is the edges you are gluing. Do you have a jointer?
Thanks but I'd rather rely on my own experiences than reading an article, as nice as that sounds. I also have no idea what kind of strength and how the tests were run.One great advantage of epoxies is that you can formulate it for thick or thin, long or short cure times, hot or cold tmeps
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Piffin,
Considering the source, ie Tauton press and you can simply click your way over there it does seem like you aren't willing to learn..
Briefly the tests were done on several woods and to three degreees of tightness of the joint with each wood.. from tight to loose.
"you can simply click your way over there it does seem like you aren't willing to learn.. "I get an email monthly on adhesives that covers all of them, their chemistry and how and when.....
I learn a little bit now and then from it.
It is head and shoulders better than anything I find from Taunton.And
I wasn't aware that you had provided me a link to click right on over to there with.So far, all I have to go on is your summation of what they supposedly said. Given your past history of exaggeration....I'd have to see it myself.
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pffin,
Please don't tell me you can't click over to Tauton's other sites.. As much of a computer luddite as I am it's a moments work.
I'll tell you what, if you ask I'll even look up the magazine and page number for you..
IIRC in that FWW test they did not clamp the joints together or dampen both surfaces joined when they used the poly glue.Poly glues, like Gorilla Glue, depend on serious clamping pressure and moisture during glueup...skip either of those and the test is invalid.I just did a dozen tests of poly glue joints earlier this month, in 11 of joints of 12, the wood failed before the glue joint.Here is a pic where a 2" glue joint held and 5" of oak fractured...this was typical of my results:
basswood,
I do recall that they did follow exactly the manufactures recomendations regarding wetting the wood..
As for clamping that would have totally defeated the reason for the three tightness of joints. We all make an occasional less than perfect joint.. Some of which cannot be successfully clamped. (mortice and tenion for example)
If it can't be clamped, then a poly glue is not a good choice.On mortise and tenon joints I've used clamps and ratchet straps to apply pressure.I use TBIII all the time and like using it better than poly, but the aliphatic resins will creep under load, so if you have a load bearing application or cold conditions (down to 40*), then Gorilla glue is a better choice.
basswood,
Hmmm, that's not what the article said.. Gorilla glue starts out with 58% of the strength of titebond 111
However I do recall an article in Fine Home Building about glues so before I make any clearly definative statement I should go back and read that article..
TB III can show strength in a short duration, destructive test, but creep happens over long periods of time, as two pieces of wood, still bonded together, slide past each other (like the two pieces of California on either side of the San Andreas fault).A glue can score high marks in a short test and fail under a long-term load. This is the case with aliphatic resins.For loads, epoxy, resorcinol, or poly glues are better. That said, for most of my applications, I use TB III or TB molding glue.
I can click, click, click, clickety clack all day long and it won't do me any good if I don't know where to go.You, on the other hand, know where it is, so it is easy for you to post a link to it.Just find the page on screen, hover your little old cursor over the URL and right click on it. Select "copy link"Then you come hereto reply and insert that link in the reply window by right clicking again, and select paste.Do all that, and you have just created your first hot link.
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Piffin,
Click on the word Fine Homebuilding.com up above in the blue border white letters.
scroll down to the bottom and the first link you will see is fine wood working. click on that and go into the archieves..
You're looking for the August 2007 issue and right on the cover is the question, How strong is your glue. It starts on page 36. the exact test results are on page 39 Average joint strength was 2024 pounds for titebond 111 and average for slow set epoxy was 1994 pounds.
The highest strength recorded for epoxy was 2712 pounds and the highest strength for tiebond 111 was 2733 pounds. (both in IPE)
Both oak and maple were lower..
The worst by far recording only 58% of the strength of titebond 111 was Gorilla glue
Tests actually performed by CASE Western Reserve University in Cleveland Ohio on a Inston testing machine.
why don't yopu just create a link, old man?
Faster than typing all that description how to get there!I know - you just don't want to learn something new.;)I got this far and see no link for "Archives"
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/
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Piffin
Once there type in how strong is your glue and that should get you there directly.
I found it a little differant way in that I clicked on adhesives and kept clicking around untill I stumbled across it again..
It's so easy for me to just grab the magazine off the pile compared to all this computer stuff. OK So I'm a luddite, doesn't make me wrong.. Just differant..
"doesn't make me wrong.. Just differant.."I wasn't trying to make you wrong.I was trying to make you learn something new.(Remember accusing me of not wanting to learn something new? - Shoe is on your foot now)Your mouse does have a right button to click, doesn't it?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin,
I need a teenage son.. to teach me these things.. My teenage daughters were of no use. Either doing things so fast I couldn't follow & understand what they were doing or getting mad that dad didn't understand the most basic things..
I'm very lucky that Stuart came out and showed me how to post pictures.. I had gone out to California and the son of my best friend who makes his living on a computer and teaches at the college level. He spent over a 1/2 hour figuring out how it needed to be done. He lost me after a few clicks.
Some things I will never be good at..
By the way 99% is less than 100% according to my math less than means weaker than.. Not stronger than..
As for epoxy's history well You apparently forgot thru some of the problems they had with their early stuff as I did.. My dad briefly sold some epoxy as the "miracle" Glue of the 1950's and it was.. except it broke down.. UV light still will degrade it. and cold affects it's strength plus a few other shortcomings off the top of my head..
I haven't seen anything to scientifically refute the conclusions they arrived at. Considering the validity of their past conclusions and who's's site we are using I'm inclined to accept their advice..
But it's OK all the years I've read your stuff I never recall you saying you were wrong.. so I don't expect you to do so now.. We all have limitations..
Not for continuous submersion or for use below the waterline. Not for structural or load bearing applications. Use when temperature, glue and materials are above 45°F. Store product below 75°F. Storage above this temperature may cause product to thicken and reduce the usable shelf life. If thickened, shake vigorously by firmly tapping bottle on a hard surface until product is restored to original form. Because of variances in the surfaces of treated lumber, it is a good idea to test for adhesion. Read MSDS before use. KEEP FROM FREEZING. KEEP OUT OF THE REACH OF CHILDREN.
http://www.titebond.com/IntroPageTB.ASP?UserType=1&ProdSel=ProductCategoryTB.asp?prodcat=1
Frenchy, the above statement was taken straight from titebond's website under the titebond iii specs. If it's structural or going to be extremely wet, I'm going with epoxy or resircinol.
Know of any boatbuilders using titebond III, I doubt it. They sure do like epoxy though.
Howevergiven the title of the article, I was able to Google up a PDF of it on the Franklintitebond website.For others interested -
http://www.franklinglue.com/Download/pdf/HowStrongisYourGlue_FWW.pdfI'll come back with comments after I study it
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OK Buddy,That was some good reading, but less than impressive, nor does it really back up your point if you were trying to say that the PVA was stronger than the epoxy. The results they charted showed that the epoxy had 99% of the strength the PVA did which for all practical purposes is identical. Their own summation stated, "both PVAs and epoxy created incredibly strong joints"BUT
They showed in their comments that they do not understand Epoxy all that well, such as by saying that it was not very good as a gap filler.
Anybody who works with epoxy knows it is not intended to be a gap filler, but that if you use it for gapping joints or as a filler, that you use the beads or powder you can add to the mix, or some fine sawdust from the type wood you are working with. Expecting Epoxy to work as a gap filler straight is like trying to use straight gasoline in a two stroke engine. Foolish!One of the beauties of epoxy is that you can formulate it to any material or condition known to man. They used basic all-around two part epoxy, did not prep the joint for bonding with acetone in the IPE, and did not clamp the joint in the way most of us would clamp that joint when building it. That casts doubt on the results.All that behind us now, the results on the PVA, combined with the ease of use and the lower cost, make TBIII a great choice, but since it is a new product, I will still wait to see how it stands the test of time and repeated wettings of the wood stressing the bond and the joint before I switch from epoxy for exterior work
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I agree with Jeff all the way. Titebond 3. It's the best.
Wood glues often depend on the situation. I use molding glue a lot inside with light trim work. 5 minute epoxies are a huge part of my repertoire, glue guns for tacking, PL 400 for heavy duty heavy weather flex, and poly glue (Gorilla)...almost never anymore. Maybe if there's some gaps to fill.
Cabinet work...just plain old carpenters yellow glue is plent good & fine.
Can you explain the difference between titebond molding glue and the other titebonds. Been wondering recently.
Thanks
The molding glue has a thicker consistency and a faster set time. It doesn't run. Regular titebond is plain old yellow glue formula, good for all interior uses. Titebond 2 is water resistant for damper areas and has a faster set time than the first. Titebond 3 is completely waterproof, has a faster set time, and is stronger.
Thanks. Appreciate the info.
Another late vote....the only thing I trust outside is epoxy. The others may or may not hold up; we do some simple experiments with submersion and different types of glue...the only thing that comes through with flying colours every time is epoxy. Resorcinol would be another possibility, but it's very expensive and hard toget here.
Cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, Nova Scotia.
Adrian
Do you find that epoxy breaks down if its in direct contact with the sun?
I had a problem with a door that I built using epoxy and wondered if the sun deteriorated it. I like resorcinol glue for the application described but didnt have time to get it and its a mail order thing around here.
Doug
From a kayak website:"All in all, epoxy is an amazing substance. A combination of a liquid epoxy resin and hardener creates a chemically inert plastic that can be cast to any shape, used as a filler, glue, or coating of a wide range of mechanical properties. Most important of all, it is a superb bonding agent for high tensile strength fibers and other materials."There is a weak spot, however. Despite advances in chemistry, epoxy has one big drawback. When exposed to UV (ultraviolet) radiation such as full sun, sooner or later it discolors, turns very brittle, and eventually disintegrates. Adding pigments helps but this is no consolation if you want a clear coated fiberglass over your mahogany deck on a sailboat or a wooden kayak or canoe. A varnish or other coat with UV absorbing additives is the only solution."They did a test of six different epoxy brands:http://www.oneoceankayaks.com/Epoxtest.htm
Thanks
I have also heard or read, that epoxies do not bond well to dense hardwoods.
Resorcinol needs to be used above 70*, that eliminated it for use in my shop this winter...I do good in winter to hit 50-60* for glue ups.
Brian
I've been using resorcinol glue for some twenty years now and frequently I use it under 70° and have had no problem with it. Now if your talking about 45° then yea, that could be a problem.
I dont believe everything on the package/directions, hell half the time I dont read them so as not to have problems!
Doug
You might find cool temp Resorcinol glueups work for applications where you don't stress the joints.I was considering it for loadbearing and this is what the manufacturer stated:"Resorcinol is a room temperature (70°F to 95°F) curing adhesive, but can cure faster at higher temperatures (95°F to 190°). Poor bonds result from use below 70°F. Temperatures of the bonding surface and workingarea, as well as the adhesive, should be above 70°F."http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:ZIwgdb174RUJ:www.dap.com/docs/tech/00030205.pdf+resorcinol+glue&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=us&client=safariI do try to make sure I follow the manufacturers directions, not that I expect to collect on a warranty claim if I have a failure, I like to be on the safe side (especially in structural applications).
Brian
I've been using the stuff for a long time now and stress or no stress, my joints are not coming apart!
Experience tells me that I can fudge on those rules a bit but if I ever do get failure I'll certainly check out those instructions that you posted.
Doug
Edited 3/30/2008 2:22 pm ET by DougU
It sounds like you have good experience to back up the effectiveness of your application, even if it strays from the instructions, but on a forum like this, you never know how someone will apply what they read here.I've painted my house when I knew the temp would drop below 50* within 24 hours...pressing my luck according to the directions on the can, but no serious harm would be done if the paint fails on my house. I might even risk doing something like that on a customers house, but I would prefer to avoid a potential call back.My potential application for Resorcinol was for those roof support brackets. There was no way I was gonna go against the manufacturer instructions on something that is holding a roof up, with snow and wind loads, where people gather under that roof every day.You may have tighter joints and better clamping pressure or some other factors going for you that allow better than average results at lower than ideal temps.I don't doubt your experience at all...these posts to you are really for others, since you know that what you do works. Just thought I should put the "best practices" info out there.The Dap and other makers of these glues are likely conservative in their instructions...they know people will push the limits.
Brian
The Dap and other makers of these glues are likely conservative in their instructions...they know people will push the limits.
I guess that's what I was saying, not so much pushing the limits, more like nudging them!
I wouldn't use the stuff in 50° unless I knew the temps were rising but I will in 60° without any concern. Sorta like you on the paint - which I have done as well.
I think a lot of the directions are written for ideal conditions, well those don't come along as much as I'd like. :)
Anyhow, not suggesting that you shouldn't read and follow directions, hell I probably should more often but........
Doug
What's a good, name brand, easy to find epoxy (lumber yards/home stores/internet) suitable for most routine exterior trim glue ups? I'm talking about glueing up things like porch columns/bases, 8005 crown miters, etc. Is this stuff easy to use in small quantities on site or do they all need to be mixed up in batches and used right away? Needless to say, this stuff is a mystery to me.View Image
deiselpig,
Epoxy used to be stronger but recent tests of glue done by Fine wood working show titebond 111 stronger and fully water proof..
dieselpig,I have found one product by PL at Lowes that I really like.I have used it for some sill and window restoration repairs. I wish I would have tried the west systems but the PL worked for me so far. Small tubes and pretty easy to work with.Jeb
Thanks Jeb... I'll keep an eye out for it next time I'm in there. Where do most folks get West System epoxy?View Image
dieselpig,Got mine from http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/. Get the free books!KK
I get mine at marine supply stores....anyplace there are boats, there is WEST system.
Cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, Nova Scotia.
adrian,
Then you need to go over to the fine wood working site.. a while back they did the strength of glues test and Titebond 111 is stronger than epoxy.
Stronger and fully water proof..
I know, things keep changing don't they?
I take anything they do with a ton of salt....definitely since the article that 'proved' cheap moisture meters are as good as more expensive ones. It is a hobbyist magazine now.
I believe what I see with my own eyes; when I see another glue hold up to epoxy I'll let you know. Sticking with WEST system for mission critical stuff.
Cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, Nova Scotia.