I’m about to bid on a job that is going to trimmed out
with Alder and since I’ve never worked with this species
I’d like to know if there are any peculiar behaviors that
Alder has that I may want to know about? Any and all info
is greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.
Richard
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Replies
Richard,I use it sometime to build cabinets & it is easy to work and has a wonderful smell,sands easy.It is a good wood I like to build with. Later Rickk
rrmdi,
I've also heard of it refered to as popular/ aspen. It's regional thing. Aspen poplar and alder are differant woods but often called the same thing..
Aspen and popular are white to green ish. Alder is light brown. Popular is a very soft fiberous wood. Alder is more like cherry and is often used as a cherry substitute. Totally different wood. Who ever is calling alder, popular or aspen should cut it out! Not even close.
DoRight,
You're right, as I've said it's a regional thing.. there are much worse offenses to get your knickers in a bunch. Want more examples, ask for tulip wood or paulownia, see what you actually get..
knickers?
Bunch?
I suppose some people are sensitive.
I suppose I think common names should be banned and replaced by scientific names only. Of course they don't teach latin anymore. LOL!
The three of them are related cousins but very different woods to work and use.it's like saying that pine is all the same wood. It's not. SYP, Eastern white pine, Lodpole pine, and Radiata are worlds of difference in milling, using, or staining
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We made solid body Guitar cores from west coast alder and I am certain it is in the birch family.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Damm, I miss that stuff
alder, aspen, birch, poplarDepenmds how far you want to run the branches of the fambly tree...Pine, grass, and roses are related too, LOL
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
We made solid body Guitar cores from west coast alderYup, I got hooked on it for smokin' when my son was working in a guitar shop...sure don't seem nothing like birch, though I need a dump truck, baby, to unload my head
Alder is a weed.
Good, IMO, only for firewood and smoking salmon.
Rots fast if wet, splits easy, low strength, soft easy to dent surface.
About 15 years ago when alder in PNW started to be cut into boards I thought they were joking.
That said, since people have been talked into thinking it is great stuff, I wish I had not cut and burned about 200,000 board feet of 15 inch plus dia standing alder in the last 40 years.
Make sure what you get is good and dry, the stuff splits easy when drying.
junk, not all alder is created equal. There are several speices.
Alder is Junk you say? Yes, if youare growing saw logs in the PNW and are trying to grow DF, alder is a weed. But it has a beautiful grain and knot patterns. Big bucks in custom doors and cabinets too. In my opinion, oak looks like dog poop, boring grain pattern and always heavy looking. JMO. I am a Cherry man. If you know what you are doing some speices of alder are hard to pick out from cherry.
Speaking of smoking...I'll fill an approximate 9" by 6" by 2" box with my own northwest red alder... Shavings, kindling or chunk/s and send it anywhere in the US for $40.00 plus S&H.=0)
The destination is not the point. The completion is not the point. Enjoy today. If you can't enjoy today, then what is the point ?
Yep, and for weed lumber (not smoking) I can supply anybody with a red alder bole 20" DBH up to 40 feet long for trade for 1/100 the amount of black walnut heartwood. How many do you want, have about 30 acres of it. No wonder I get these letters in the mail to log the place (see FHB great moments Nov 1990)
You pay the shipping on the alder, I'll pay on the walnut <G>, or FOB Winston or Mossyrock, WA.
You can tell the high opinion I have of alder for furniture or cabinets. The previous poster's comments about SOFT better be taken to heart if you are talking about western red alder.
My neighbor at our cabin has over 60 acres of the weeds and says he does clear a bit of cash with his bandsaw mill and using the alder to foist off on yuppies as a "now thing" wood. The other neighbor there cut all his weeds 25 years ago for firewood and does even better with DFir Christmas trees on 5-7 year rotation.
Now, how about cottonwood for kitchen cabinets, I got lots of that too, even more of a weed IMO.
BTW, anecdote on alder strength - put a target up on a 14" DBH alder for 30-30 and 7.62-39 practice. Damn thing broke and fell over after a few hundred rounds.
No joke Jeff, post that offer over on cookstime or on ebay and you probably will get some takes!
a suggestion for an ebay offering?
"Luka's gourmet alder smoke special - genuine Snoqualmie River alder felled near xyz falls (cant remenber the name of the falls next to you). Nez Perze Native Americans have used this special wood for generations to prepare the most exotic and tasty smoked fish and venison in Northwest history. Be part of the exceptional cuisne only obtained with Snoqualmie river alder smoking"
Or some such, you can probably blend together a better pitch after going to the library and reading similar balderdash in some cookbooks, etc., but this is a serious suggestion for cash flow - people buy anything on ebay, especialy if youcan make them feel like they are a part of an exclusive crowd.
Heck, if lumber folks can foist this stuff off as cabinet grade wood, you are on your way to being a famous gourmet!
Edit ps - use your graphic and computer skills for a "i/m glad i bought this, it makes me feel special' type of label to attach to shipments. After a little cash flow comes in, send some free samples to editors of Fine Cooking, etc, and see if there is any free publicity to be had.
Edited 4/19/2006 10:55 pm ET by junkhound
I am copying and saving this post !!!I'll also have to research license, taxes, etc....Probably not that big a deal on ebay, but if I were to actually get serious about this, I'd have to make sure everything was on the up and up.So far, I'm not really serious about it. Too busy with other things. (AND making some progress !!!!!!)Just thought I'd offer it as a frolic here for now. If anyone actually does want any, I'll honor my offer.=0)
The destination is not the point. The completion is not the point. Enjoy today. If you can't enjoy today, then what is the point ?
Thinking I'd probably better get some research on exactly how the alder is used for smoking/bbq'ing, as well....;o)
The destination is not the point. The completion is not the point. Enjoy today. If you can't enjoy today, then what is the point ?
Great id3ea! I winder if he can use those computer skills to add a whiff of smoked salmon smell to the adLOLGood luck Luka - remember peanuts used to bea weed too. The definityion of a weed is any herb that we haven't found a market for yet!;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
That was my original response, too.But I've seen a few set of alder cabinets that looked pretty nice. Still can't swallow the idea that it is suddenly "fine cabinet grade wood". I always liked the way that the ends turned orange when you cut it green for firewood. Never saw any other specie do anything similar.I do miss burning madrona, though. Pinon pine is popular here in the southwest, but not with me.++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd." Voltaire
Alder was once a trash wood that grew up in clear cuts. Big Lumber killed it with broad spectrum herbicides, along with Salmon and other species ("some collateral damage necessary") to make room for their hybridized lumber trees. Once the herbicides were banned, they let it grow for pulp. Then they determined that they could "market" it. Now it is harvested and divided into 18 proprietary grades (!!) for sale to shops across the land. Carefully placed photos of kitchens and millwork of Alder have inspired designers across the US to specify this former trash wood.
Big Lumber did the same with knotty pine after WW2. They had huge stockpiles of knotty after making clear lumber for war effort, and so they hired Carleton Varney and others to design rooms around it, placed articles in house magazines, and the Knotty Pine Rec Room/Kitchen/Family Room/ etc was born.
It is a narrow, knotty, short species, prone to a high level of movement. Softer than most hardwoods, it dents easily. sands and finishes well. Was known for years as "poor man's Cherry" around here.
More than you wanted to know.
Dave S
Alder is one of my favorite woods. It can be stained to look like many diffeerent woods. This is why it is popular in the furniture industry. I have done jobs with it that exceeded 10,00 bdft.
One drawback is that the max length available is 10'. I usually add a little more % for waste on alder and the ends tend to be checked a litle bit more than some other woods.
The woods tends to be a little more reactionary when you cut it . But then again, depends on the material you are buying. The trouble boards are easy to spot once you have milled a bit of this material but it is hard to explain with a keyboard
Where are you located? Maybe I can recommend some sources for suppliers/milling on the West Coast.
I will not have the luxury of ordering the materials.
I'm only doing the installation. I live on Mt. Desert Island, Maine (Acadia Nat'l Park).Are there a lot of color variations that would necessitate picking through boards to match the coloring? Does Alder snipe when jointing? I think you answered my question whether it twists when it's ripped.
You say it's obvious when you pick up a board to mill, yes?Richard
Yeah, sorta, kinda. It's some thing you learn as you go.
Sniping is a term for when your infeed/outfeed tables are not set correctly. Same as on a shaper or a planer. At least this is what it means to me
Here's a pic of a kitchen I did with a natural alder finish
Alder seems to be the wood of choice for some cabinet manufacturers. Like someone else said, they are using it as a cherry substitute. Here is a picture of a factory built kitchen with alder face frames, and doors.
Soft, but finishes real nice.
View Image
If you have any poo, fling it now.
Edited 4/19/2006 9:35 pm ET by dustinf
"Does Alder snipe when jointing?"Snipe comes from the quality of your planer and tyour skill in using it.Alder will do more tear out when milling it than poplar
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I have a property full of red alder.This stuff will turn out just like the kitchen that is pictured in an attachment in this thread.I take the logs myself to a sawmill.I offered to bring in logs as long as 16 feet.The sawmill owner insisted that he wanted 10 to 12 feet only. (With an extra foot on each length, of course. For waste on end cuts...) Or multiples of ten.That may explain why it is only available in 10 foot lengths. The mills are insisting on that length when brought in.Why they are cutting only ten footers is beyond me.Anyone that wants longer logs, let me know. You have to pick it up, and I'll charge you slightly less than I would get at the sawmill. LOL
The destination is not the point. The completion is not the point. Enjoy today. If you can't enjoy today, then what is the point ?
I know PLENTY of guys that would kill for 16's of alder, specially in mouldings. They just don't want it wet or can't deal with air drying.
I had a talk with a guy at Washington Alder Company and he said the mills, kilns, grading racks are just not set up for these lenghts. Breaks up production.
By the way, Wash. Alder Co just won a Anti-Monopoply, or what ever it's called, against Weyerhauser last year. The little guy prevailed... I wonder how long before they get paid...
I had planned on saving most of my alders, to mill my own self. I was figuring on my own cabinets, and possibly some "log" posts here and there. Also figured on cutting plenty of blanks to be used later. I may end up using some heads and branches for railing.I have a giant old bandsaw that needs some welding and other repairs. I was going to set up a rolling feed for it. But practicality says I am probably going to just take all the alder down and take it to the mill.Got one that is a danger to my house at the moment. I can't afford to pay a tree man to climb it and buck it down, so I'm just going to have to cut it down and try to force it by my cut... to miss the house.Had one guy say he would gladly buck it down in exchange for the logs. He had a look at it. He's never done it before. His friends convinced him it was too dangerous. LOL I'll just cut it, and pay for whatever repairs I have to pay for, out of the profits from the logs.
The destination is not the point. The completion is not the point. Enjoy today. If you can't enjoy today, then what is the point ?
"so I'm just going to have to cut it down and try to force it by my cut... to miss the house."
Be sure to set up the camcorder first!! Sounds like something I would have done in my less affluent, less prudent youth. Most trees I can drop pretty well; Montery Pine I've never figured out - seems to always go opposite of logic - LOL. Good luck!
I ended up borrowing the money and hiring it out.Here are some pictures.I am standing very far downhill from where the tree is. The tree was leaning more than 45 degrees by the time the guy got here to cut it. It doesn't look like it's leaning that much because of where I am standing.Pic 1 is where he is more than halfway to the top. The tree was over 150 feet tall. He has cut the branches as he went along.Pic 2 You can see a large branch falling. It is one of the larger ones at the top.Pic 3 He is cutting off the top. Pic 4 You can see him off the left side of the tree. Just to the right of the center of the picture. At that point, he had already cut off three more sections. All of them a bit more than 20 feet. It had swayed dangerously for the 3 sections before this. At this point he Untied himself from this tree, and stepped off, over to the hemlock on the right. He tied himself off to the hemlock before making the final cut.Pic 5 he has made the final cut, and you can see the big piece falling.The tree bounced so badly that he definately would have been knocked around, and possibly killed.That last piece stuck straight into the ground. It buried itself at least 5 or 6 feet. About 15 feet are sticking straight up out of the ground.At my direction, he left the tree at that point. I will cut down the rest of it when I am ready to haul it to the sawmill. It is no longer a danger.He could see the path, and how far it would have fallen. He said it would have taken out the house AND the shed beside it.
The destination is not the point. The completion is not the point. Enjoy today. If you can't enjoy today, then what is the point ?
Cool - thanks for the pics! I love watching a good tree guy at work - amazing what they can do! Glad you still have the house (and shed!) intact :-)
wedges, wedges, wedges. Work wonders. 10 degree lean to teh north? drop it to the south if you do it right and have wedges.
Hey Luka, glad to hear that bad boy's finally down, and that nothin's under it<G>Don't write off your gourmet alder idea...for several years, I've been getting Jim Blodgett to send a chunk in return for some hick'ry...alder and fish is the dish...ax cut it for a really feel good marketing presentation...hand split planks...yeah, that's the ticketInteresting the talk turned to alder cabinets. I'm working up a remodel, and the kitchen shop has talked the clients into alder. I've never heard of such a thing...but the pics do make it look mighty pretty. The softness bothers me, though. What do you wetcoasters think, will it hold up for the long run...or will it get distressingly distressed? I need a dump truck, baby, to unload my head
Billy
The softness bothers me, though. What do you wetcoasters think, will it hold up for the long run...or will it get distressingly distressed?
I dont see how it can not get the distressed look after 4 or 5 years!
I've built 6 or 7 kitchen/entertainment centers in the last 5 years and the stuff is nice/easy to work with but I dont see how its going to take any punishment. Some of the softest wood I've ever used for cabinetry. Much softer then poplar IMH.
BTW, I'm planning on building a new kitchen for our house using what else....ALDER.
I have a lot of it left over and its such a hot item right now that with the plans to sell this house soon I'm going to take advantage of the craze and give the public what they want! Thats kinda my style anyhow, give em what they want. <G>
Doug
You are so on the cutting edge<G>...hey, I've got yellow pine counter tops and floors, I know about about distressed<G>and, thanks, I value your input...now, I'm going to get another Margarita<G> I need a dump truck, baby, to unload my head
That marguerita will undistress you
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Cool, my plan will work<G> I need a dump truck, baby, to unload my head
I just finished a kitchen using it for all the doors/panels and trim.
I bought 4/4 frame grade rough for $1.55 a b/f. Kitchen was "rustic"
so the knots etc were welcomed...I used about 500 bf, so I saved about $5 a foot over other possibilities...I shot it with vinyl sealer and glazed with burnt umber glaze and shot with cat laquer..an easy finish...
Bud
curious - did you have extra trouble with tearout around all the knots, or were they firm and tight?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Snip: curious - did you have extra trouble with tearout around all the knots, or were they firm and tight?Some of them left holes where the knots were, I dont know if the centers popped out or they were already hollow. I was looking for a "rustic" look, so I didn't pay any attention.
lets see if I can post a pic....Bud
For most of what you're going to have to deal with there really isnt a lot out of the ordinary, and not much else I'm going to add to whats been said. However, machining it can get a little tricky. A table saw or chop saw is going to do about what you expect but I've had some real interesting experiences running the stuff through a planer, shaper, router. It tends to be fairly prone to splits and checks, and I've found a handful of times where it has some unresolved childhood issues that escape when you mill it, which generally result is an explosive decompression of the board and various bits and pieces about the room. If you're milling your own base, make extra lengths before you go running things through the shaper. Entertaining, though, to be sure.
"Sometimes when I consider what tremendous consequences come from little things, I am tempted to think -- there are no little things" - Bruce Barton
I've done 4 kitchen cabinet jobs in the last few years using Alder.
It's soft, very soft. Is a bit softer then poplar but I haven't had any problems milling it like some have mentioned.
I've seen it stained to sorta look like cherry, seamed OK I guess.
You will have problems with lengths though, as others mentioned, cant find it longer then 10'
Its really nice to work with, light, sands easy, nails easy.......
Doug
It must have -some- strength.Furniture is made from it as well.Like you, I have been impressed with how easy it is to work. Even seems to resist splitting when nailing, a bit better than pine.
The destination is not the point. The completion is not the point. Enjoy today. If you can't enjoy today, then what is the point ?
Since You are right acrtoss the bay from me, I asssume that the alder you have to work with is not the heqavy large red alder most have discussed here from out west. What has been the outcome of your experience. I have considered it for certain projects at times
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
I have made many doors, cabinets and moldings out of alder. It is a wood that when stained will show any swirl marks if not sanded very well.