I Live in N. Western Pa. My area produces the finest cherry in the world. Because of geological changes millions of years ago, minerals that are present just 80 miles south, create sappy cherry. Those minerals are absent in the soil where I live, hence clear, dry cherry.
I thought I would put together a little photo essay depicting the history of a cherry log.
Ditch
Edited 7/9/2003 7:32:48 AM ET by luvditchburns
Replies
We see these trucks everywhere:
Ditch
Ditch
Well pull one of them fat boys down and send it down here to Texas for me, would ya.
Thanks in advance
Doug
The truck is heading to a small logging mill where the logs will be off loaded.
The logs have already been purchased from the landowner. This particular mill also runs a "stumping operation", which means they cut a deal with the landowner for the right to "cut and take".
The landowner is the first participant in this process, since he owns the raw material. He is also the person who takes the least risk, as there is plenty of competition for his logs, he'll hold out for the best price.
The logger/buyer has to speculate the future cherry market, measure each individual tree to determine number of board ft., cut and haul the logs to a rough mill....and hope he didn't offer the landowner too much for the trees.
Ditch
interesting post...I have always heard about cherry from that area being the best..now I know why. I used to make kentucky longrifles from a blanks of curly maple. The best curly maple usually came from Pennsylvania as well, up in the higher ridges where they grow slower.
Hi Stan,
Next time I'm up in Franklin I'll take some pics of a maple mill. The best maple is about 60 miles N.E. of where I live.
I like to walk the mill grounds and look for figured logs. If you look at the butt of a freshly cut log, you may see disruptions in the annual growth rings. These disruptions create figured maple (or any other figured species). The hearts usually contain more disruptions than the sap. Ya' can't tell from the butts whether it's quilted, curly or birdseye....but when you see those disruptions it makes your heart skip a beat.Ditch
when you see those disruptions it makes your heart skip a beat.
Every post in this thread has made my heart skip a beat... keep 'em coming and I'll keep wiping the slober off my chin.
I'm learning a lot! Thanks!Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
This is a specialty mill about 5 miles from my house. Every log at the facility is figured. Ya' can't get in as there's a fence and barbed wire around the yard. Notice the sprinkler system. This keeps the logs "fresh" so the ends won't check.
At any given time there is $1M worth of figured logs here.Ditch
Sorry. Forgot to post picture. Rough day. Spliff break.Ditch
Thanks, I've bought PA cherry, and just figured it was a marketing term, it's nice to know "the rest of the story."
I guess I'm demented, ok, I hear that a lot, but I love cherry with sap wood, walnut, too...the contrast is striking...so, now do you know where to send those piths?<G> EliphIno!
I've tried to make cross block parquets out of 'em for floors. They're just not stable. A good scoot partner owns a custom drying kiln. We've tried clamping the piths between plywood and drying them, drying them slowly. air drying them, force drying them with high temps.....they just always split, curl, cup and crown as soon as they're sliced.Ditch
Well that's all for the rough mill stuff. I'm doin' a poker run Sunday with a cat that runs a drying operation. We're gonna stop by and get some pics of the kiln. Stuff goes in fat and comes out skinny.
The best I'll save for last when I pay a visit to a custom mill and show pics of some super high end German molders. 5 heads, pneumatic hold downs, serious dust containment, etc.
4/4 stock goin' in.....6" fluted door casing comin' out.Ditch
Just out of curiousity, what kind of prices do the mills get for the upper grades (FAS and Select) per board foot? (For the eating cherries, the growers last year were getting 50cents a pound for Bing cherries while some of the supermarkets were chargine $2.99 a lb., not a bad markup - the price did come down a little later in the season, however.)
Actually, unless you know someone in the business you won't get any at any price. It's all shipped out of here to the markets that will pay the most...often times the Asian countries or the Euopeans. And the prices at local mills are high.
Nobody's given' it away....from the landowner to the guy selling chair rail....
Ditch
Thanks for the education. Very interesting.
Great thread, ditch.
Man that was great stuff...now that's what I come to Breaktime for! Pretty refreshing after yesterday's garbage. Thanks brother.
Interesting, my sawmill just waxes the ends of good logs.. I wonder which is cheaper, sprinklers or wax?
"If life is a bowl of cherries, then why am I in the piths?"
- paraphrased, from Erma Bombeck
Norm
Around here the cores of veneer logs are fed into the boiler but if u know someone at the plant theyll give them to u.Nice big 3-4" dowels .If your cutting veneer timber you better know what your doin.Loggers here call it " popping" . U need that saw to be zooming thru there so it busts clean from the stump and doesnt pull out any fibers from the butt.
I got some big cherry logs from a operation down the mountain, but unfortunately the whole tree was a waste; and it was a beauty.Poor loggers felled it across a rock and it shattered the grain thruout.They thought I mite be able to get something out of it with my bandsaw mill but the checks spiralled thru it.Careful loggers would of cut some trash trees to cushion it.
Working the green line at a mill is pure misery,my hats off to those who do it .
Pretty soon sadly will all be cutting hemlock if the wooley aeglid doesnt get controlled.Theyre trying to raise some predatory beetles but i fear they wont get here fast enuf(WV).Most the trees here have only 1/2 thier needles.Another year of that theyll look like some parts of Shenadoah National Park ...dead zones.Ruff to be atree these days.
Yes, the wooley bug....bastard....some think it came on a simple pallet. Has begun drying our landscape hemlocks out....Ditch
Well, I never thought this thread would recieve such a warm response. Maybe I could have a "cherry fest" this winter. We could visit some of these places and shoot the bull around a shop stove.
Thanks all!Ditch
Anther question -
I assume they must tree farm the cherry trees. How long does it take for a tree to grow to saleable size? How dense do they grow them?
This thread is getting better all the time. Thanks
And, on top of the black cherry being such a sweet wood, the fruit is the best...too bad it's usually up so high that the birds get most of 'em...
NC and VA mountains also have some primo stuff...there's not a wood that ages more gracefully.
Your pics are like a cherry porn site<G> (with a bunch of salivating!) EliphIno!
wooley bug is killin lots of hemlock here...
something else is killing all the black pine.. including all the ones planted in the '40's on our local golf courseMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
something else is killing all the black pine.. including all the ones planted in the '40's on our local golf course
Yeah...that's you...relieving yourself of the pilsner on the trees.Ditch
not really.. that's reserved for the poison ivy....Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Woa! You wanna stand back a bit for that stunt...Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
Here the logs have been cut. Previously they were stacked, in no particular order. When the logger/sawyer has sufficient supply he will notify "buying agents". The buying agents arrive with "graders" and "sorters". Each pile of rough sawn lumber is gone thru by the grader. The grader marks each individual board and the sorters stack them in piles respective to grade.
To watch a grader/sorter team in action is pure magic. A good grader can measure a board, grade it....a sorter marks the graders "call" with a lumber crayon........and the sorters stack them by grade. Marking and sorting an individual board takes but a few seconds. Ditch
The sawyer is responsible to "eye" the good stuff. The saw mill owner can't grade each board while it's being cut, however, he can insure that the best, most clear boards are culled. Here are some green boards which qualify as veneer grade. The saw mill owner will sell these himself on the specialty market.Ditch
In this picture the boards have been graded, sorted, stacked and banded. The board footage has been calculated and a price negotiated between the saw mill owner and the buying agent. Each "pack" has been purchased by a different buying agent.
The buying agents also have to speculate the cherry market....and hope too that they haven't offered the rough mill too much for the green cherry.
The "packs" are now ready to go to be loaded and trucked to a drying operation. Some will go to Europe and Asia.
I will post kiln operation photo's shortly.Ditch
give-me-some-of-that!!
Ditch, you reckon this supply of great cherry had anything to do with the casket industry around Wilkes-Barre and Scranton ? Nowhere else have I seen so many casket companies.
Greg.
Way to go teach.
Nice post. I love cherry. Bought 2500 bd ft this winter from a farmer, mostly select or better, for $1200. Its in a barn drying as we speak. Several of the core boards are 17-19" wide. Beautiful stuff. The portable band mill that was cutting the logs was about the coolest thing I've ever seen.
Some beautiful stuff there. Just think of the projects you can make with stock that nice. I have a hard time finding nice boards for the occasional furniture project etc. I would sure like a 10min shopping spree in that mill......
SJ
Know a little about alot and alot about little.
I spent a summer (well, most of one) at a mill stacking and sorting green hardwood as it came off the saw. Just looking at those logs brought back the spicy smell of green cherry. The mill was in central NY but I think there were some logs coming from PA. thanks
would like to get hold of some of that now!
They must have differant standards for veneer grade there.. Here our grader wouldn't grade any of those better than FAS.. Veneer grade here means that there are no flaws or sap wood visable the whole 8 foot length.
I agree to watch a good grader sort thru a stack of wood and mark down each board and it's grade/ mark the board flipping it over to check each side and tally the bd.ft. of each board is amazing.. walking at a steady pace he completes the stack in less than twenty minutes. (he has to work quickly since he's paid by the bd.ft. for grading, 10 cents a foot)
The grader walks the pile of boards and writes in his book the grade and bd.ft. of each board and marks with a crayon on a stick the grade. Two grunts pull the boards off behind him and set in graded piles. Since high grade boards are worth so much more than lower grade bds. it is normal to see a mark indicating where to saw off the end of a board. two three even four feet are whacked off at a time to "make grade" those pieces with only slight flaws wind up in somebodies fireplace..
Frenchy,
There are different grades of veneer. A, A/B, B, C, D, and E.
I'm not very familiar with veneer..... as it doesn't hold up very well under the sanders.
BTW. Your an inventive chap, can you figure out what to do with the piths? They're used for blocking, and burning in the shop stove.
Ditch
Edited 7/9/2003 4:51:02 PM ET by luvditchburns
Edited 7/9/2003 4:51:28 PM ET by luvditchburns
Piths:Ditch
I am not a builder but that was fascinating......Thanks......My husband used to be a cabinetmaker......
Ain't that a shame? my sawmill will have a pile like that over fifteen feet high after a day of sawing and it all becomes firewood...
What does your sawmill get for a pickup load of those? The cost at mine for a heaping pickup load is $30.00 there will be slab wood, heart centers, and pieces less than 4/4 thick in there..
If the piths don't become blocking they end up at local campgrounds as fire pit wood, as do the limbs from the "stumpers". Mom and Pop stores and KOA campgrounds get $20.00 for a small bundle of piths.
Since Lake Erie is only 50 miles away, and this area is surrounded by lakes, there are campgrounds every few miles. On the weekends in the summer families come here in droves from Pgh. and Cleveland. R.V's and boat trailers replace logging trucks on the local roads Fri. to Mon.
I burn slab wood all winter in the house and in the shop. I don't pay anything for it as I get it from my Homey's. Burns kinda quick but smells nice...and it's free BTU's. Most of the slab wood however becomes landscaping mulch.Ditch
Notice that when cherry burns down the color of the flame is kinda aqua? I always thought that kinda cool..
Veneer grade wouldn't even get that close to a sawyer as it is turned right from the log. Up here in Maine when I got some veneer grade oak my buyer will come and tell me what lengths he wnts me to cut and off they go to the big Knife at the mill, at times I've seen red oak veneer grade logs go $1200 a thousand. Nice picture essay what a great way to educate the uninformed, I'm still droolin just thinkin about gunstocks and what else I could do with that pile of material. Do tehy use Doyle rule or Bangor rule to scale I'm just curious or biased.
The pic of the sprinkler operation is primarily a veneer operation where they have a peeler. Ditch
I take it you are referring to scaling timber as it sits on the stump. Doyle, Scribner, and International scales are used but I have never heard Bangor referred to.
Much of the cherry sold to the big stump brokers is sold on a per acre basis. It is surveyed from the air as the terrain is pretty rough. Currently the Allegheny National Forest is being selectively harvested. The state owns the land, which they purchased around the turn of the century, I've been told, for $1.00 per acre. This was land which had been clear cut of most all of the hard and soft woods. Currently "state" stump cherry is selling for $35K per acre. Nice return on that original $1.00 per acre. And the state still owns the land.
After the clear cutting, cherry trees took over naturally, and being relatively fast growers quickly took control of the bare ground. This greatly affected diversity... few of the indigenious species returned as the seed pods were exposed to 100% sunlight....but what's done is done.
Pennsylvania has an excellent forestry mngmt. program. Penn State is the school of choice for this field and most grads get hired with at least a masters and many with PHD's. After a few years working with the state most leave to become indepenent consultants and hang a shingle.
It's a good old boy network. The state will advise private landowners what to do with their forests, but they won't negotiate with the stumpers. The state will, however, refer private consultants to the land owner (former state foresters), and it's the private consultants who often times negotiate a buying price on behalf of the landowner. Kinda like a real estate agent.
The stories like the one posted earlier...buying trees from a farmer for a ridiculous price....still circle around....but almost noone in this area is that stupid.
As to the actual brand of "sticks" the graders carry, the "Cleveland" is the "stick" of choice.
Ditch
Edited 7/10/2003 8:04:04 AM ET by luvditchburns
Really a great show and tell...
What species is the cherry? We have a lot of cherry trees here along the Columbia River in Oregon and Washington, but they are mostly Bings and while they may be better eating than those in your pictures, they don't make nearly as nice lumber...
Prunus Serotina. American Black Cherry.
Of the 20 or so species of cherry only Black cherry is important to the lumber industry.
Our cherry is commonly refered to as "Allegheny Cherry", because it is harvested from the Allegheny plateau. But the very, very best cherry comes from the Allegheny plateau north of interstate 80.Ditch
This is definatly one for the archives. Cherry is definatley my favorite furniture wood, and this is really facinating believe it or not.
Now we need to figure up a hijack plan.
Who Dares Wins.
Please excuse the deleted messages to follow. A few of us started scheming, it got really late and things just got out of hand. Here's where all the messages went:
THE GREAT CHERRY HEIST
Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
Edited 7/13/2003 3:46:14 PM ET by Wrecked Angle
My brother lives in ne Ohio, among the Amish. As you may know, in addition to farming most have a second cash producing occupation. Near him is a sawmill, where all the local farmers bring trees when they need cash. There is beautiful cherry there, a sort of pink color with lots of neat figure. I bought a bunch 2 years ago, and brought it back here in a trailor. (broke the springs on it, and couldn't figure why my mileage got so bad).
I got 4 8/4 x24 inch boards, 10 feet long. Can you imagine? Its been drying for two years, but probably not usable for 2 more. I paid 1.50 per bd ft.
I did have to take some short (5ft) boards off his hands in order to get the good stuff. He thought he got over on me, and I felt the opposite.
I have never seen the PA cherry, so can't compare figure and color, but I sure like this. Made a cradle for my new grandson.
Stef
Wow Stef! That is nice work. One heirloom coming right up! I'm guessing you did the handcarving on that cradle? You know something? Between your contributions to the SIPs thread and this picture of some of your handiwork, I'm beginning to think I might really enjoy getting to know you. Any chance you might make the Colorado Fest next spring?
Edit: looked at the picture a little closer and I'm not too sure that is hand carving anymore but the joinery is really nice. Mon Cheri! (whatever that means)
Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
Edited 7/12/2003 2:32:48 PM ET by wrecked angle
Yes, it is all handcarved. And I can tell you, Cherry is not easy to carve. Its the sort of thing I do in the winter when there is too much snow to work on the logs.
I think DW and I will probably come to Colorado fest, as the guys on it are starting to become pals. I've gotten so much good advice, and some of the characters appear to be pretty wierd, I have to meet and thank them.
Thanks for the kind words.
Stef
Sorry I doubted you Stef - it just looked too "perfect" to be hand carving. If you come to CO bring those chisels. I'd sure like to see a demonstration... Very nice!Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
Gunner
Dammit dont you go without me or I'm telling!
I was at Austin Hardwoods today and the guy told me that because of the similar look that aspen has to cherry the Japaneese are buying all of that up now.
2 years ago the stuff was cheep, and you could use it in certain places and get a somewhat close cherry look, all the architectual mags were showing it, now you can hardly touch the stuff.
Anyhow let me know when this hijacking is taking place, I'm in.
Doug
Youse guys don't need the square dood.
A fat, hairy mountain man jumping around, wearing a tin foil hat, and making all kinds of crazy gestures and noises, is a lot more distracting than a couple of measly cherry bombs...
A good heart embiggins even the smallest person.
Quittin' Time
We'll use it to throw off the cops. They'll se it laying on the ground and go get bigger guns before they head out after us. The delay caused by that will be very crucial to our plan.
Who Dares Wins.
Still here, and I'm in.
Youse'll get the best cover you ever had. If anyone in the crowd ain't-a-watchin the crazy coot, they'll soon be sportin a coupla shiners. Guaranteed, everyone else'll start watchin' reeeeeeel close like.
Been doing a bunch of work lately, and had to upload a huge crapload of files over this here phone line. Takes forever. Soon as it is finished, I am heading for bed myself...
A good heart embiggins even the smallest person.
Quittin' Time
We're country people up here. Schools close for 3 days during buck season. People shoot deer off their back porches.....they'll shoot you guys too if they catch you in their lumber yards.Ditch
Ditch dude,
Looking at that pile of piths made me think of ......
End grain parquet!
Ever try it with Cherry?
I wonder what it would look like?
I'm in Elmira, NY, how far south would I have to go to get into "Prime Cherry" country?
Mr T
Do not try this at home!
I am an Experienced Professional!
"T"
That's what I was refering to when I posted the cross block flooring idea. The piths are so full of water that I can't dry them properly. I've had a pith in the shop for 2 years and it still reads 20+% at the surface.
I guess you could saw a slice off each edge every month or so to relieve the pressure on the pith.....but what size blocks would you end up with in the end? End block or cross block floors are usuall 3" X 6" or 2-1/2" X 5"... (containing a common denominator)... Ditch
Sorry Ditch
I for one am enjoying this thread about the cherry, so I deleted my stupid comments about the heist, I heard Gunner would narc us out anyhow.
Doug
Ditch,
In Texas we have a lot of mesquite and some of the most beautiful wooden creations I've ever laid my eyes on are items carved or created from the root burl. I'm curious if they routinely process the root burls of cherry as well and what it looks like. Mesquite burl inlayed with cherry burl... now that might just send me over the edge.
You also eluded to processing cherry off the stump on demand. I'm not familiar with the growth patterns of cherry. How does that work exactly? Do the trees remain alive and continue to grow between "aggressive trimmings?"
Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
http://www.salemhardwood.com/HTML/standingtimber.htmlDitch
......and 60 feet to the first limb.Ditch
Man those are really nice trees. You don't see anything like that in my part of Texas.
I would like to get my hands on some of those fast growing red oak seedlings they re-plant with. I probably won't see them at 75 feet but it would be a nice gift to leave to my (hopefully) future grandchildren.Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
Kevin
Dont even start up with this subject again, now your going to want to get IMERC, Gunner and who ever else you can and go get some oak. :)
Just drop it and use some of that beautiful scraggly(sp?) cedar that is growing all over the place.
Doug
I really am imensly interested in this thread... I'll try to behave, I promise.Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -