My 12 year old SKIL circular saw has served me well, but it’s time upgrade. Read the recent article but have questions. What is a “worm drive”? Why would I need one and is it worth the extra dough.
Ted
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Run a search in the archives with keywords like "wormdrive", "sidewinder", "wormdrive vs. sidewinder", "east coast vs. west coast" etc. You'll read all you could ever want to know about 'em. Do it quick before you start WWIII with this topic though!
I'll say this.... If you buy a wormdrive.... buy a Bosch.
If you buy a sidewinder.... consider the Bosch CS20 or the Milwaukee Tilt-Loc.
Good luck dude.
They're just friggin' saws.Our quarrel with the world is an echo of the endless quarrel within us. - Eric Hoffer
Ted, it's too late...wwIII is ON!
I'm going to give you fair warning. Before you by a wormdrive you should at least experience what it feels like to use one. Since you only have a circular saw, I've devised a way for you to experience a wormdrive by cleverly devising a setup that will simulate a wormdrive....
First, get a huge roll of ducttape. Gather your saw and get a concrete block...preferably an 8" X 16" solid one. Tape that to your Skill saw with the duct tape. Then grab this contraption, with your left hand, and just use it this way for the next two days. Remember, always use your left hand....this will simulate the blade left feature of a right handed skill saw. Pay particular attention to how easy it is lifting this saw over your hand for those overhead trimmings that occasionally occur.
Remember, don't be a wuss....if the single block gets to be too light, add another.
blue
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
lol blue, i agree, but you forgot obout one detail. You havto scream as loud as you can while running the saw so as to simulate the earth shattering noise of a wormie-->
measure once
scribble several lines
spend some time figuring out wich scribble
cut the wrong line
get mad
Actually worm drives are quieter than most all sidewinders. I believe it's the oil bath that dampens the noise.
I use both worms and sidewinders. I started out using sidewinders but these days I find myself reaching for the wormdrive 90% of the time. The learning curve for getting the feel of the saw is longer with a wormdrive, but when you really give them a chance and get used to them, they are far superior to sidewinders for many tasks and most framing. It takes more than a day or two of cutting with one to really be able to form an educated opinion of their differences. Overhead cutting? No doubt the sidewinder wins on that one every time. I VERY rarely need to make an overhead cut in new work though.
The left handed/right handed comment that Blue made has no bearing on the discussion. He's trying to handle a left bladed saw with his right bladed skills. The operator is the problem on that one, not the saw. It's a different technique. It's like using the motor skills you use to run a cordless drill while operating a sawzall.
the noise: Ha that makes me laugh, im realizing the error in my logic: My wormdrive is about 15 years old and it is so loud that if i dont use ear protection it actually hurts (physical pain) my ears. and of course my side winder is new.blue's left handed thing: yeah but it was pretty funny, and if we're being technical, humor outweights logic (jk)As far as the actual debate, i likem both, the power of a worm is essential every now and then(ex: roof demo.) but i hate carrying the extra weight the 99% of the time that i dont need that extra power. -->
measure once
scribble several lines
spend some time figuring out wich scribble
cut the wrong line
get mad
I don't know Sky.... I still disagree. We have both types of saws running all day on site and there's no doubt that the sidewinders are by far louder. Maybe your 15 yr old worm is ready to spit out it's bearings or something? Seriously, this isn't just my opinion, check out the specs. Anyway, I'll agree to disagree with you. :)
disagree? but i concieded.. Maybe i wasnt clear. I meant that i cant judge fairly because my saw is old and there are many varibles (such as perhaps not enough oil in wet bath system) (yikes i better check that).So by saying that i meant: Youre pobably right.(about noise)-->
measure once
scribble several lines
spend some time figuring out wich scribble
cut the wrong line
get mad
My bad.
I now agree to agree that we no longer disagree but now instead agree.
AGREED!-->
measure once
scribble several lines
spend some time figuring out wich scribble
cut the wrong line
get mad
Like you, I use both.I'm right-handed too.I DIDN'T DO IT...THE BUCK DOES NOT STOP HERE.
Now we're getting somewhere. I use both... and I'm LEFT handed. Neither saw feels the least bit uncomfortable either. Just takes a little bit of getting used to is all.
Sorry Skye...I didn't know they were loud...I only pulled the trigger on one once and quickly set it back down before my vertebraes popped out.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
.I only pulled the trigger on one once and quickly set it back down before my vertebraes popped out.
Well at least you really explored the possibilites before you formed your extensively researched opinion of them.
Diesel, I simply can't lift anything that heavy. I wouldn't care if they were silent, cordless and could magically cut a stack of plywood by themselves...if I can't hoist it up...it won't work for me!
I suppose I could rig up the Skytrak and jib....
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
No, I know Blue... you've got a nasty back from what I've read. I hear you. I just thought that maybe you would give it a fair shake before you spoke so disapprovingly of them. Kinda like you getting ripped by that dude for framing your trusses on the ground. Can't really knock it until you really try it, you know?
FWIW (I once caught my Bosch wormie trying to magically cut a stack of plywood all by itself.... luckily I stopped it in time)
Oh no Diesel...I get to knock those things because remember..... I run the disclaimer at the bottom.
Please don't take me seriously about my disdain for worms. I'm sure that they are fine tools, but I don't have one shred of doubt that they wouldn't work for me and my style of framing. I also couldn't make any blade left saw work for me. We all develop our habits and skills with the tools that we start with and not all of us are ambidextrious or flexible in our thinking. I'm vewry set in my ways and I'd probably stop framing if I was forced to use a worm. The aggravation of changing all my paradigms would drive me crazy.
I also don't mind if others think I'm incompetent when I do things that might appear un-orthodox. I don't even mind being called a hack or imbecile or whatever else comes to mind. Basically, I don't need their approval...all I need it the check from the builder!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
LOL. You are quite a character Blue. God love ya. You remind me so dang much of a boss I once had. He rode me hard from the day I met him until the day he finally walked (coincidently his back just couldn't take it anymore). I despised him the entire time I worked under him. He was all over me like white on rice from 7am til quittin time. When he left I missed the heck out of him and would stop by his house after work once a week or so for years afterwards. He was the most stubborn bastard I ever met and had an answer for everything. I still don't agree with everything he showed me, but I learned more from him than any other one person I've worked with or for. Anyway, this was supposed to be a compliment of sorts but it may have been tough to decipher.
Thanks Diesel. I know I'm a character and not everyone can take my attitude.
I am softening up a bit though. I got impatient with the rookie today and mentioned the girl dig. He took offense and spoke up about it later. My first instinct was to be defensive....I was going to tell him not to be so sensitive....but I held my tongue. A little later I said the "A" word to him. The difference is that I held my tongue and gave my brain a chance to think. I remembered my promise to stop teasing people because it's mean. That led me to remember that I messed up a great teaching opportunity....you see when someone's failing, that is a teaching opportunity. So...instead of telling him that he's too sensitive, I simply apologized.
I'm getting soft, but I'm also cognizant of other's different rate of learning. I'm still a stubborn old bastard, but I'm also trying to improve my social skills.
I gotta pull out a book and reread it. it's about managing people and it was a wonderful read and gave me a lot of insight on managing people effectively instead of like an old stubborn buffoon.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Good lord!!! How weak are you?! :-) I learned on a wormdrive when I was 15 and that saw just isn't that heavy. :-)
I love a wormdrive. I've tried sidewinders, but just doesn't feel right.
Now you want to try a heavy saw try the 14" Big Boy by BigFoot tools!! That is a heavy saw. On my job, I'm the only one strong enough to use it. Know why? I use the same "body lotion" that Barry Bonds does. But it isn't steroids :-)
Tim I'm very weak!
I only carry three 104 5/8 studs. I'm very manly and can carry four 92 5/8" ers.
My back was hurting so bad on the last job that I only carried two studs (they were 118 7/8" 2x4's.
I'm starting to come around though....
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Blue,
In all seriousness, I hate to hear you have a bad back. That bums me out. At least you've got a good attitude :-) keep posting. You've brought some life to this forum
Tim, my bad back was the result of my apprenticeing days when everyone carried way too much stuff and we lifted way too heavy walls.
My mentors learned their trade building relatively small houses. Their mentality was that you could push any wall up. When I started, the houses started expanding, but the mindset didn't. There were times when we'd be standing up walls that were much, much too big. In those situations, somethings had to give....I don't have a few disks back there as a result of my mentoring.
I forbid my guys to carry too much weight. When I see them pushing the limits, I don't praise and encourage them, I tell them that their stupid. I'd do anything to have a solid backbone....
blue
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
See the doc. They can fix those discs now. 100% effective, from what I understand.Les Barrett Quality Construction
No siree Les. I'm not going under the knife.
My back problems let me know every day the correct way to stand, to lift, to sit. It reminds me that I'm not built to watch television for long lengths of time.
I recently saw a special on back problems and solutions. Science still don't know if all their surgeries are actually working or harming...the numbers don't justify the surgerys.
I found the five minutes with Dr Sarno to be very enlightening. Dr Sarno belives that up to 20% of all back problems are mental. I swear, my back started relaxing just watching and believing that small clip. For the first time in a coupla weeks I could get up from the couch without feeling pain and straighten up and walk normal...just from that segment.
Unfortunatly the tortue continued the next day. I must be mental.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Don't feel alone blue,and its not mental. Monday thru Friday I get out of my truck looking like a 80 year old geezer til my back straightens up.Saturday and Sunday no strain or pain.
I didn't do it....the buck does NOT stop here.
FramerT...I know the routine...getting out of the truck after an hour drive....I should take movies..it might be a good comedy!
Dr Sarno makes sure that his back patients don't have physical problems that need to be corrected using other treatments, but when nothing physical is found, he goes to work on the mental aspects. His findings are that not everyone will respond to his treatments....they have to have the right belief system...Howard Stern has related his experiences with Sarno for years. His severe back problems disappeared with Sarno's treatments.
Actually Sarno claims that one a believer understands that his subconscious is tricking the body, the ruse is up and the pain diversion doesn't work anymore. My back is relaxing just typing this..
blue
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Blue, I feel the same as you about the knife. On the other hand, I have seen some folks with years of pain and limited motion get a whole new life after an operation. My worry with back problems would be that I could live with them now, but would I want to live with them when I am 70?
I was referring to some synthetic discs that have been recently approved. I think that when someone had a disc problem in the past that it was common to fuse two together to get rid of pain at the cost of a little spinal flexibility. The new discs supposedly accomplish the same thing without the loss of flex.
I'm just glad that my back is holding up.Les Barrett Quality Construction
Les, I know that I've had herniated disks, and that they never actually repair themselves. I have learned that my back is fine if I avoid bending...and lifting heavy objects and of course, use proper posture.
If I don't frame, my back doesn't hurt....I've went months without any pain...but I do have to be careful...just like everyone should. For instance, none of my guys can get into my truck without majorly adjusting the seats. They think I'm crazy, but I know I'm crazy like a fox...
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
How about my 16" makita beam saw??
Bosch. Buy their cord too.
As far as I'm concerned the only thing a sidewinder is good for is when you need to make a bevel cut the other direction. I don't understand how everyone thinks worm drives are hard to use. They are easier to use for righties, You hold the saw with your right hand so your to the left of the saw the side the blade is on and can see perfectly what oyur cutting. Everytime I see someone using a sidewinder they have to lean over the saw to see what they are cutting. Having the handle behind the saw gives you more control. I think people that use sidewinders that try to use a worm drive use both hands on the saw instead of one, very rarely do i use two hands on the saw, overheads and plunge cuts. I do have a little 5 1/2" skill sidewinder with the blade on the left that works great for those awkward cuts up on the roof. All that being said the only wormdrive I would by now is the BOSCH ( who owns skill). It is basically a Mag Skill 77 with a better baseplate, Bevels to 50, saw hook, Detachable cord, better switch and motor. Good Luck!
I couldn't have said it any better. I'm right-handed and sidewinders are worthless because the blade and cut line is way off to the right of your body. Why lean over just to try and see what your doing when you can use a worm-drive.?
One question for you.(only one)
Do you mark the wood before you cut?
Thanks.
YCF
Thats an excellent question YC!
Actually I have made one cut with a wormdrive jsut to see how it works. The basic stance of a wormdrive is to stand behind your work and push the saw through. The basic stance for a winder is to stand aside of the work and lean a bit over it.
I don't have any problems leaning over, or standing behind my sidewinder. I also don't have any problem seeing a line when I actually make one. There are significant amount of times that I look throught peephole from the left side without "leaning" over the saw. Quite frankly I've never had any sightline problems...its all in their heads, just like my adversion to blade left cutting is in my head.
I also tried one blade left sidewinder cut. I couldn't get the blade to cut through the 2x4 and just set the saw down. I was trying it to see if it would make sense for me to have one around for those weird times when I wished I'd have a blade left tool. That attempt cured me of the curiosity...I'll keep a chisel handy instead...
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Blue. I mark the wood. But not in the cutting line. This way I have
A. A full view of a (100% visible line)
B. Blade far away from my body parts
C. Control of the saw by not having to look under or thru a hole.
D. Dust, not in my face.
E. Easier to align the saw with a full view line before the cut.
F. Five fingers on my left hand .
G. Great cuts every time.
And you don't waste any time. Instead marking the wood on the cutting line you mark on the offset line. One line-same time to mark and much better to cut.
And I bet my Fferrari.
YCF.
"I mark the wood. But not in the cutting line."--YCFriendcan you explain that to me, i diddnt quite understand what you meant-->
measure once
scribble several lines
spend some time figuring out wich scribble
cut the wrong line
get mad
Take the distance from the blade to the edge of your saw base.(offset)
Make your own (offset) square and when you position the square on your cutting line ...mark the offset line.
Is so EZ you will get confused ... few times. But the very first cut you will make it will be your best one so far.
YCf
thats pretty clever but it seems like it would be hard to see if youre taking the line or leaving it. i suppose you would just get used to it though.. I'll try that out somtime-->
measure once
scribble several lines
spend some time figuring out wich scribble
cut the wrong line
get mad
You get use to it. After all people get use to look at the blade thru port holes and saw dust in ...the face.
YCF
Once you get used to the torque factor, it will be your best friend! (Worms I mean)
Boy, it doesn't take much to get a saw argument going here. And the Brits drive on the left side with right side steering...whats better...I DIDN'T DO IT...THE BUCK DOES NOT STOP HERE.
"make an offset square jig for cutting straioght lines on studs, etc..."
That's just one more dang tool I gotta carry...No thanks.
You ought to be able to just sight on the mark and cut. If you want a perfect straight cut, place the saw blade to the line, then butt your regular speed square against the saw base and then make the cut using the speed square as a fence guide....straight cut, simple, and no extra home-made jigs needed or carried.
My old, Porter Cable SAW BOSS comes with a double sightline that I can use to make either cuts on the right hand side of the line or the left hand side. The Saw Boss also comes in both right hand and left hand models if you have a preference. This tool also allows you to rotate the dust nozzel so saw dust does not blow in your face.
The saw is way lighter than a worm drive version. A lot of magnesium parts is the reason.
NOW THE BAD NEWS...Porter Cable discontinued this model and produced and upgraded version....waaagh!
BTW...any tool manufacturers scanning this post, take heart and HIRE ME! You boys need some serious input into your designs...especially Bosch and Hitachi.
Tools need to be functional, light as possible, and durable....not glitzy, gimmicky, hip hop promotional, heavy pieces of junk! I'm dead serious. Y'all need help. Hire me...I'm worth it!
Davo
Davo
That's just one more dang tool I gotta carry...No thanks.
place the saw blade to the line, more work here.
using the speed square no need to hold the square and the wood the same time. You can make all your lines and cut without holding any jig.
YCF
Blue. I mark the wood. But not in the cutting line. This way I have
A. A full view of a (100% visible line)
Not necessary but if I'm standing over my work I can see the entire line with my winder.
B. Blade far away from my body parts
Blade is plenty far enough away. If it gets any farther, I'd have to get arm extensions and better glasses.
C. Control of the saw by not having to look under or thru a hole.
False issue. Control is a factor of having a competent grip on it with your hands. I can control a saw with one hand tied behind my back and my eyes closed.
D. Dust, not in my face.
Dust does not get in my face unless I'm doing and overhead cut.
E. Easier to align the saw with a full view line before the cut.
That's probably true. After my first 100 cuts, all traces of aligning the saw disappeared
F. Five fingers on my left hand .
I only have four on my left hand....and oh yeah...a thumb too.
G. Great cuts every time.
Ditto
And you don't waste any time. Instead marking the wood on the cutting line you mark on the offset line. One line-same time to mark and much better to cut.
Here's where you lose the gig. I mark a substantial amount of parts using the actual space that they are going to land. I don't ever use my tape or anytool except the pencil. If I had to pull out my tool and create that offset line, or re-train my brain to do all those things that you don't like from above, I'd think that would be a detriment.
And I bet my Fferrari.
Send both sets of keys....I don't want you sneaking around late at night and stealing it back.
blue
ps fill it up before you deliver it.Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
A.Not necessary but if I'm standing over my work I can see the entire line with my winder. The idea is not having to stand over your work all day. Pull back -relax.
B.Blade is plenty far enough away. And you don't have to look at the blade all day.
C.False issue. Control is a factor of having a competent grip on it with your hands. I can control a saw with one hand tied behind my back and my eyes closed
The wronge choice of worlds in my part. Let's try been more alert by not having to devote all my attention to the cutting line and have more options to better handle my saw from a better position. Easier for my back to.
Dust does not get in my face unless I'm doing and overhead cut. Imagine having a left bladed saw on overhead cut?
That's probably true. After my first 100 cuts, all traces of aligning the saw disappeared. In my case is after the first 10 or 20. My back is out.
Ditto to Ditto here and Dream on.
If I had to pull out my tool and create that offset line, or re-train my brain to do all those things that you don't like from above, I'd think that would be a detriment And Ditto here to. If we learn to work one way is hard to let it go and try another one ,even if is better easier faster bla,bla bla. Ditto to Re-train the brain.Is not EZ .
Send both sets of keys....I don't want you sneaking around late at night and stealing it back.
No more dittos here. enough for a day. Dream on.
YCF
I have vote for the venerable worm drive. 90% of the work I do is better suited (for me at least) for a worm drive's power and feel.
Like Blue says, try one out before you buy. It may not be your thing or you may fall in love.
Jon Blakemore
I got to test the "in-line saws" for JLC. Some manufacturers got mad when we called them all wormdrives.
My favorite saws were the Makita 15 amp (best motor by far, but heavy), the DeWalt (most comfortable and easy to use, but not very durable. We have 4) and the Bosch (doesn't like to bevel past 45 unless you adjust the depth a little). My personal saw is the Bosch direct connect and it's a good saw. You would be happy with it if you are already comfortable with a Skil
How long have you been using the direct-connect system on the Bosch saws? Reason I ask is that we've been using it since the spring on three saws and I've noticed the jackets on our extension cords seperating from the plug.... seems to be a bit premature. All our cords are 12ga Polar Solar or Yellow Jackets. Notice any of this? I'm thinking it may be because the guys sometimes get lazy and dont run the cord through the loop... this may put unneccessary stress on the cord/plug junction.
Diesel....you lucky dog you!
When the jacket separate from the plug end, Yellow Jacket will replace your cords free!
I love it when that happens!
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
For real? How would I go about that? You may have just earned a whole case of milkbones.
Diesel, just take them back to where you bought them. We just have to give them to our tool guy and he gives us new ones. I've switched about a dozen of them at the home depot.
I don't know if our HD's stock Yellow Jacket anymore. I think Blowes does.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Thanks for the good tip Blue. Milkbones to you fine sir.
Hey cool....i got friends again!
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Man! Do you know how many Yellow Jackets we have with the jacket pulled loose?
They won't replace them if only the ground plug is broken, but when I show them the plug end pulling away....I ALWAYS got a new cord...no questions asked...no receipts.
They just send them back to the manufacturer. Remember, they have a lifetime warranty. In fact, when they first came out they used to exchange them if the ground plug broke off! Not any more though.
I also got one exchanged that got too loose in the female end. I just showed the clerk that the male wouldn't stick in there and got a new one.
That reminds me. They used to fizzle out in the females. They'd just burn up and shoot black out. I got several exchanged for that.
They also won't exchange them if the little light burns out at the end of the cord (the indicator light). That's written in the warranty.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!