As part of a kitchen remodel in our 1887 house, we’re adding a half-bath, using antique plumbing fixtures. We have a 1904 toilet with a tank that hangs on the wall (not a high tank, though).
The plumber went to install it yesterday and discovered that I measured the rough in wrong. It’s supposed to be 14″ and I told him it was 12″. There’s a 90-degree flush ell that connects to the bottom of the tank and to the back of the bowl. Either arm of the flush ell can be shortened, but in this case it doesn’t help because the slip nut on the flush ell would be in the elbow.
The closet flange is not accessible from below, and we just installed new sheet linoleum in there, so moving the flange is a very last resort because it would mean tearing up the whole bathroom floor.
I’m considering creating a recess in the wall behind the toilet, but that’s also very destructive, and the plumbing for the toilet goes through that wall, so demolition would be dicey, and replumbing would be expensive.
My wife talked about making it into a high tank toilet, thus allowing more latitude in configuring the flush tube, but I’m not sure how well that’ll work with the existing tank and with a rear-spud bowl.
Does anyone have any bright ideas? Some clever way to connect the tank and the bowl that doesn’t look too awful (and ideally is or could be chrome plated)? Any other approaches? Any feedback on what we’ve considered so far?
Help!
Replies
I think your between a rock and a hard place on this one.
Maybe look for an antique style reproduction with a 12" rough in.
There might be a type that has the pipe going straight in from the top, as opposed to the elbow type, not sure of the rough in on that type.
Or bite the bullet and change the floor flange.
Guess it comes down to, how much you want to use that toilet.
Good luck
Have you considered an offset toilet flange? At least the floor disruption would be under the bowl base.
No? Bathroom Machineries, in CA, http://www.deabath.com/index.html , has all you need to work with old fixtures - has the conversion kit to a high tank. Talk to them - I've used them several times whne no one else could help, and they LIVE that stuff.
Forrest
How legal is offset flange? I know some jurisdiction do not allow it, but how common is it?
Legal in my location, what problems can they cause?
Big waste gets stuck in the bend I guess. I checked the local plumbing code and it does not address offset flange at all.
Or, make a (decorative) riser base for the toilet, that conceals an offset flange mounted above and into your existing floor flange. I've done the riser trick to inexpensively convert a standard toilet to a handicapped-height seat. More comfortable for everyone.
Forrest
Why is the flange not accessible from below? Cutting/patching plaster is not really that big a deal, if that is what you mean by "not accessible". Probably less of a pain than ripping up new linoleum. Still, even if you do that, it will involve patching the linoleum where the flange used to be. Depending on the design of the "throne", this may not be much of a problem since most, if not all, of the patch will be covered.
I would avoid recessing the tank. A new toilet would look better than that. Just thinking outside the box here, but you could probably get some brass tubing custom bent and chromed. "But where do I get the tubing and who would bend it?" you ask? No idea, other than try some place like McMaster Carr for the tubing and a muffler shop for the bending. That said, new linoleum would probably be cheaper.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
What kind of piping?
You should be able to do everything with out messing up the floor if it's PVC.
Like suggested an offset flange would probably work and keep you from destroying the entire floor.
The idea of recessing it into the wall... Don't.
It will look horrible, you're regret it, and it will not be any cheaper then fixing the problem.
If the offset flange will not work, that leaves 2 options, New Floor or New Stool
Either move the flange, or see if an offset will work. All the other solutions will either look bad, or cause other headaches, except maybe for the high tank option, but I don't know if that will work or not. You need enough room for that elbow to fit.
And next time, check the measurements first. I swear, as odd as it sounds, I think the thing to do with remodeling is get all of the finish items FIRST, actually in your hands, so that all these things can be worked out. It seems that even things as simple as face plates for Tel/Comm connections can vary in size, so you have to get just the right box and cut just the right opening.
An offset flange might be an option, but the flange is already glued in. Also, the toilet's horn actually extends below the bottom of the toilet, and it's a 4" horn. Not sure if an offset flange would work in this case.
I actually used DEA bathroom Machineries for the $400 in parts I used to restore this toilet (which is one big reason I'm so reluctant to give up on using it). I've been looking at their website for possibilities. All their high tank toilets are super expensive, and the tanks are out of stock. I'm going to call them when they open and see if they have any ideas. Maybe I can couple an offset flush tube to the flush ell somehow.
The riser base isn't a bad idea if I can get an offset flange to work.
The flange is inaccessible from below because it's in an addition to the house that has no basement. I wouldn't even call it a crawlspace, because you can't get at it from the basement, and there's minimal space below the joists.
Piping is PVC.
I did check the measurements first, and I had the toilet before they even started construction. But, to figure the offset, I had to make several "stacked" measurements, each with the potential for error. Somewhere I screwed up.
Thanks for all the input!
I have seen quite a large number of old toilets set on a carrerra marble base that was honed out so that condensate that might drip off the porcelain would collect there. I would say they are about 32" wide and long enough to reach from wall to under the seat and out front enough so your feet are on it there I believe.Anyways, it would be about 1" thick except where honed to spoon the water, and the seat/bowl portion sets on it, installing through a hole in the middle for the waste.These were from back when the flange connection to the cast iron was sometimes made of lead.My thinking is that with a floor panel like that, you could cut open a large enough hole in the floor to be able to change the flange to offset enough, and compliment the 'antique' appearance of the whole setup. Other than that, I think your wife is on the right track, but the open question in my mind is whether toilets and tanks are designed with the amt of lift in mind. Fluid dynamics is not my cup of tea, but it seems like if it produced a stronger flow due to the added lift, the flush might not work the same or the size of the pipe might need to be modified to adjust the flow rate.Then again, I don't know if there was as much science applied to crappper design back then as there is now
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Maybe this will help:
http://www.jlconline.com/cgi-bin/jlconline.storefront/47056b910026106b27177f0000010565/UserTemplate/82?s=47056b910026106b27177f0000010565&c=2e6d3a1c3f87be8239ca3d893438829f&p=1
And read the second article down "The pipe shredder" maybe you can rent one.
http://www.jlconline.com/cgi-bin/jlconline.storefront/47056b910026106b27177f0000010565/UserTemplate/82?s=47056b910026106b27177f0000010565&c=4667decf917abf87777fecc37b4b1998&p=1
why can't the flooring be cut and patched?
yer moving this deal forward, right?
so most of the cut will be directly under the comode.
and the rest ... 2 seams ... under the tank.
flooring is repaired all the time.
being brand new doesn't change anything.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
I wondered that too. We do vinyl in bathrooms often and if recently laid the glue is often soft for a while. A careful cut from the wall to the center of the flange. A little heat from a heat gun and patience should allow that vinyl to be pulled back. Cut the floor directly over the pipe and repair. Then put it all back. With the toilet in front of it you would never notice it even if it weren't perfect, but no reason it shouldn't be pretty darn good. DanT
I talked to Ray at DEA Bathroom Machineries. He suggested getting some 2" OD stainless steel tubing and going to a muffler shop to have it bent. He said you can even get it polished to look almost like chrome.
I called a local Meineke muffler shop, and the owner said custom bending is what they do. He said they don't carry stainless. I asked if he could order it and he said "Yeah, but I have to get it in 10-foot lengths, so it's going to be really expensive."
I braced myself and asked, "How much?"
"Probably $50 or $60."
I almost burst out laughing. "Dude, after what I've spent on this toilet, that's a drop in the bucket."
So he told me to get some 2" flexible tubing - the kind you use to connect your air intake to your exhaust manifold and bend it to the shape I need. Basically a prototype.
I've done that and am bringing it in after work today. If the bends aren't too tight, I'm in business!
why would you connect your air intake to your exhaust manifold? :). i'm no mechanic but... :)
<why would you connect your air intake to your exhaust manifold?>
It's that whole "Exhaust Gas Recirculation" deal (EGR) - a crude 70's add-on attempt at emissions controls!
Kind of the same idea as feeding the pigs effluent from their run-off.
Forrest - somewhat of a mechanic
ahh yes.. but thats usually just a small line isnt it, not a 2" flex pipe.. maybe i'm wrong again :)
It provides heated air to the intake air stream during start up, to speed the rate at which the engine heats up, and keeps the carburetor / throttle body from icing up until the cooling water gets up to temp. The exhaust manifold is hot to the touch after about five seconds of running. The water/coolant takes at least a few minutes. The tube actually is connected to a sleeve around the exhaust manifold, and brings in heated air before the air filter. There should not be any exhaust gasses in it.
The heated air helps keep the fuel vaporized and in suspension in the cold intake manifold. Also, in cold conditions with a high relative humidity, ie 35-degrees and foggy, the compression of the air as it goes through the venturi, and cools will drop the temp to below freezing and the venturi ices up.
There is typically a damper controlled by thermostatic vacuum valve, (or bimetallic spring on older cars), that proportions the heated air from the exhaust manifold, and the normal air stream, and cuts out the heated air as soon as the engine warms up.
I missed something on this post?, but you can't use 2in. on a toilet?
you can if you only eat brown rice...
I think what he is talking about is going from the back of the toilet to the tank. In other words converting it so the tank is raised and the pipe will be bent to connect the tank and the toilet. DanT
that's what I'm seeing too ...
but ain't there gonna be flanges or something other than the straight cut on the end of a tube?
U and me woulda had that floor cut and patched by the time he gets to the muffler shop!
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
True. 3 days ago. On the old toilets and still on some commercial stuff they use a "spud" (might be a local term) which is a bolt in deal somewhat like the current used shower drains. Rubber grommet, brass body etc. DanT
DanT: My bad, he is talking about the flush ell. Its been many years since I worked on that type of toilet,sorry.
Bwaaaaahahhahaha ..YOU ...measured wrong ..??tryin' to save a $, no doubtthe Plummer is laughing
I've been chastised for mis-reading a post many times, but my post didn't say anything about measuring. The rest of your post dosen't seem to pertain to the original. BTY plumber is spelled with a B.
the Plummer is laughing
So is your 3rd grade spelling teacher.
I'm glad someone got the point. How about mason[air]y. Must be me but, I think anyone in a trade should be able to pronounce, and spell the trade they are in. LOL