8/11/04
Dear Mr. You ,
You have completed a job for Mr Nice Wonder that I have inspected . I have found the following violation; ——————————————————————————————————————————————————. Sec, 111111111 of chapter 999 of the International Building Code [ doesnt exist] states that ——————————————————————————————————–.
This violation must be addressed for my inspection within 7 working days from the date of this letter . Please call my office for an inspection with in this time period.
Sincerly,
La Da Da
City Inspector
I write a few letters that partly resemble this made up letter . I have a question for fun;
What would your feelings be if you recieved one adressing somthing you had done ?
I often wonder how its percieved.
Of course this thread is wide open for anything you would like to write as its fair game and of course its just for fun .
Tim Mooney
Replies
I've addressed it often and have chosen to ignore it!
Jeff
Buck Construction, llc Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
You ignore the letter, the work, or the response you might have had ?
Ill add that I dont normally get any response of nature at all.
Tim Mooney
Edited 8/11/2004 10:10 pm ET by Tim Mooney
Assuming the letter is on official city stationary, I would contact the author and get thiongs right.
But ... what if I had green tags for evertything, and a CO if applicable? I guess I would still contact the authoir, and politely point out the green tags.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
Most everyone complies alright . If somthing is said , they want to know why. Explain it to them, they fix it and its over .
I just wondered how they felt about it . They dont say one way or another . The reason I wonder .
Tim Mooney
Being as that this person, per your example document, is a city inspector I think ignoring it would be rude and ill advised. Giving him a call and politely asking him what the issue is would be, IMHO, the best action.
Inspectors who are ignored get testy and, sometimes, downright mean. No reason to bow and scrape but treating him with some respect is called for. A lot of these folk are decent enough and will treat you fairly if you are polite about it. He is performing a service for the public and doing his job as he understands it.
Be careful about claiming there is no problem. Make a call. Ask for clarification. Have the applicable version of the code at hand so that he can give you a reference or page.
I've only had that happen twice, once on a commercial job and once to a HO that could not get his electrician back.
First one, I was a liitle put out. The inspector was asking for upgrade in a part of the building that was grandfathered. The permits were for an addition, and I felt he should have known what he was suppose to be looking at, not just aimlessly wondering around the whole building. I phone call and short followup meeting resolved the issue, but cost us a 4 day delay in getting the CO for the addition.
Second one was a missed item that was required by the latest additon of the NEC. First electrician was unaware of the new requirement. HO got the letter and ask me to make the required addition. A call to the inspector was very helpfull. In fact we both gained from the conversation. His interpretaion and mine differed some what, but they were both right. I now know what he wants specifcaly, and he admits that there is some wiggle room in placement of required devices. Felt good about that one.
Mostly, I want to get the job done right. If I miss something or misinterpret something, I am glad the inspectors tell me about it. I don't feel offended at all.
Dave
Tim, you're a representative of the gov't. I wouldn't personalize the letter so much. Some might argue that bureaucracy needs a personal touch, but I wouldn't agree in this case. Keeping it impersonal keeps it simpler, professional and business-like.
"I have found the following violation..." becomes "The following violation was found..."
"This violation must be addressed for my inspection..." becomes "This violation must be addressed for inspection..."
"Please call my office for an inspection..." becomes "Please call for an inspection..."
Regards,
Tim Ruttan
I somewhat disagree on the personal nature of the letter. Too many government letters are nothing more than form letters full of text, and you have to wonder if the sender actually knows what the letter says. And Mr Inspector is trying to be non-confrontational. And since it's Arkansas, he should throw in a couple of Bubbas and references to cold beer and fishing.
To answer his original question ... how would I fell? I would be a little nervous. But it's nice that he didn't threaten or start off quoting punishment.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
We (the HO) got a letter similar to this but with a sterner tone after some recent electrical work was performed on our house. As the HO, I was concerned, called the inspection office, got an explanation, called the contractor who took care of it immediately. As in was at my house WITH the inspector within an hour.
One interesting thing of note, when I told the inspector who my contractor was, he relaxed considerably. "Oh, it's XXXX? They do excellent work and I'm sure they'll take care of it quickly. It's not really that big of an issue, but I just need to get this closed out." I already felt very good about our contractor, but this really sealed the deal for me.
This was in North Little Rock, Arkansas (where they outlawed drinking beer on your front porch a few years ago). You don't have Bubbas in Texas? LOL.
Leigh
You don't have Bubbas in Texas?
Sure we do, they jus doan hay tha funny Ozark accent . . .
Oh, an yer truck gots to have a front lizens plate (in case ya gotta gets home from the honkytonk in revers, doncha know?)Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Oh, an yer truck gots to have a front lizens plate (in case ya gotta gets home from the honkytonk in revers, doncha know?)
Thanks! I always wondered about why ya'll have those. Here you're mandated to use that spot for displaying a Razorback plate of some sort.
Leigh
why ya'll have those.
Now, my grandfather held that it was really because the prisoners wouldn't have enough work otherwise . . .
I may know just one too many rednecks. "Why'n ya goan bak'ards?" " 'Caus'n Joe Bob caint drive stick, but he'c'n find Revers." "Ok. Git'er done!"
Here you're mandated to use that spot for displaying a Razorback plate
I've always wondered about the folks who went to the other school, guess they just put a UA plate on so as to not be thought as foreigners . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
I've always wondered about the folks who went to the other school, guess they just put a UA plate on so as to not be thought as foreigners . . .
Pretty much.
I grew up in Jonesboro, home of the ASU Indians. My dad has an ASU plate on the front of his pickup, but he doesn't travel outside that part of the state much, fortunately.
Leigh
"To answer his original question ... how would I fell? I would be a little nervous. But it's nice that he didn't threaten or start off quoting punishment."
I thought I would like to hear from yalls side of the deal.
I will tell a little story.
Most all of the home owned operations are very nice. Especially the home boys. However, there was a big company in town building a big building I wont address here to protect the guilty. Over and over they ignored me thinking they were in small town podunk Arkansas and I guess they thought there were no gonads to enforce someone that big. Thats just my guess . Finally they were about to cover up violations and I had played along giving them all kinds of time. Enough was enough.
The super and project manager were arguing with me about what we had already discussed. I unholstered my cell phone and called light and water . " Hi, this is Tim . I need power and water shut off at this building tomorrow at 4 oclock unless I call you back. Yes , it is my order . Thanks bye . " I cant begin to describe how their attitude suddenly got better .
We all screw up including yours truly and it also happens to the best . Doesnt matter who it is , it happens . Some people do an exellent job by making light of the situation and being genuinly friendly.
Tim Mooney
Would love to have been a fly on the wall for that one.
Way back when I was a carp. working on a new Winn Dixie store a good ole boy showed up one day around lunch. He bs and talked with most of the guys on the job, talking everything from farming to building stuff. Never identified himself, got in an old truck, and drove off when we went back to work. Next morning he was sitting there in his white cadilac when I pulled up. Since i always the first guy on the job, I went over and ask if he was looking for someone in particular, thinking he might have a side job for one of the guys.
"Nope, I with the state building department, I'm looking for the job superintendent."
Oops!, he won't be here untill about 10 today...meeting....I'm kinda in charge.....maybe?
"Well, boy, you can put these red signs up everywhere I tell you. You see, someone did not get permits for anything but footings on this project. These are Stop Work Orders that you will be posting. Those 18' walls sure are the tallest damn footings I've ever seen. You can also tell anyone else that shows up to work to head back home, and oh, btw, you are going to wait here with me untill you boss gets here."
A company as big as Winn Dixie thought the same thing your contractor did. I don't know what it ended up costing them, but I know it took almost another month to get started back on that job.
It was too funny, after I got over the initial shock of that good ole boy catching them the way he did.
Dave
When I was working on a big semiconductor plant being put in around here, the contractors thought we were all a bunch of hicks and could do what they want. Covered up all kinds of work without inspections. Inspectors were issuing stop-work orders left and right. The contractor calls the mayor, and the signs came down, and the process repeats.
Glad I don't work at that plant.
On the other side of the inspector,
I was working on a $12M hospital remodel. 6 weeks before completion, we were 2 weeks and $120K ahead of scedule.
A subs smartazzed steel stud installer employee (he was trouble from day one with his mouth) called the state inspector a name.
The """carpenter""" got sent back home to another job, but, by the time the inspector was thru with us the job was 9 weeks over scheduled completion date, $240K over budget, and the GC was losing $6K/DAY in penalties.
DON'T pizz off the MAN. If yer da MAN, don't take one very junior peons mouth out on the other company.
Oh yeah, the GC was a big, old, established company. Their California License was only 4 digits!
SamT
>> ... by the time the inspector was thru with us the job was 9 weeks over scheduled
>> completion date, $240K over budget, and the GC was losing $6K/DAY in penalties.
And that's why I'm opposed to building codes and permits and government inspectors. It's not about safety. Safety's just an excuse. It's about power
... by the time the inspector was thru with us the job was 9 weeks over scheduled >> completion date, $240K over budget, and the GC was losing $6K/DAY in penalties.
Sounds to me like there were some serious problems there. Not just some items that were in the "gray area" or subject to interputation. Maybe the inspector wasn't very good at his job and after he got pizzed off he got out his books. Bottom line is, if up to code it will pass, if not up to code it might not pass.
>> Sounds to me like there were some serious problems there.
That's one way to read it. If that's true, then the smart mouth was doing the hospital a favor, and the inspector was abusing his authority before the incident rather than after. But the inspector's behavior before and after the incident can't have both been right.
>> Bottom line is, if up to code it will pass ...
I would say if it's up to code AND the inspector knows the code AND the inspector doesn't have his hand out, it will probably pass.
Some areas that failed (some not mentioned should have failed in anybodies eye, I agree.) I didn't see all the examples as I left when the GC no longer needed a journeyman for a foreman.
Metal door frames with up to 1/8" gap, cumulative both sides, between the integral metal trim and the surface of the DW. Fire caulk not acceptable. Test with a feeler guage. .001"???, they come thin. Architect/engineers specced the doors, the studs, and the DW. 5 man crew three weeks to correct and they still had to be retaped, remudded, and repainted. There are a LOT of doors in 2 acres of hospital.
An 8' 3" hallway, code requires 8' clear. A clerks window shelf 2' wide sticks 3/16" into that 8' clear. The entire hallway is finished att. Fix it. Remove the window, the wallpapered dw one side, router off 1/4", retrim the shelf and reassemble and finish everything. How did it happen? The plans detailed the shelf (sub 1) and the window (sub2) and the 8' 3" clearance (sub 3), not the 8' from wall to shelf edge (sub 4), and no one caught it
No compromising anywhere. absolutely by the book, no matter how small an infraction nor how much it cost.
He was petty after the idiot talked to him.
SamT
Sam, I learned that loose lip lesson the hard way. Not with an inspector , but the buisness manager of a church.
There was a screw up on light fixture changes, who was to order them, and misinformation on availability from two suppliers. Trying to keep him informed, I gave him all the imformation as I got it. In his frustration he ask to speak with the company owner, which was fine, but also let it slip that he was questioning my integrity.
Being young at the time, I let my butt overload my mouth and really set us up for a butt kicking. The design/inspecting archy was a member of the church. When it came punch time, I (we) got hammered. I finaly had to ask the big boss to put another superintendent in charge. The church manager had wanted me fired, but eventually settled for just getting me off his project.
I was three weeks ahead of scheduled completion, but my smart azs mouth got us nit picked into two weeks over and the loss of our early completion bonus plus $1000.00 in liquidated damge charges. My boss didn't hold it agianst me because he also got sideways with the guy too, but I always felt that it was my fault we started down that path.
That was a powerfull lesson to learn the hardway.
Whats the old saying "It is better to keep ones mouth shut, and be thought a fool, than open it and prove it." I sure proved that one right.
Inspectors are human too. Someone pees in thier wheaties and they are gonna pee back.
Dave
Yep, but, if you put milk and honey in their Wheaties, you'll get smiles and a helping hand all day.
If it had been anybody in charge of any of the 200+ men on site, I would have been behind the inspector. Sorta.
The kid who mouthed off at him had previously profaned the town, the hospital, and the hospitals BoD. In writing. In various locations around the site.
I just could not prove it was him. I had to buy each of my crew a small can of auto touchup spray paint to carry at all times.
SamT
Speaking of church business managers, I got a little crossways with one and stepped out early. I have done some mninor repair work for my church ... the guy in charge of the facilities is a practicing architect ... and he asked me to repair some termite damage to the door frame of a 1920's stone chapel. The business manager is an ex-Air Force woman ... I don't know if she retired or just spent some time ... who tends to be a bit rough and demanding. She has a church employee ... a maintenace guy ... and they get along just fine.
Considering the age of the chapel, the amount of damage, and the fact that that the door jambs appear to be original, I was going to use Abatron WoodEpox for the repairs. I had dug out all the bad wood and scraped the paint, when I got word that the maint guy wasn't happy with the chioice of repair method. I had talked with the archy and he was ok with it ... restoration rather than replacement. I met with the maint guy, and could tell right away that he was not making the call, and that he had no clue what he was talking about.
We talked for a while, me exhibiting my best manners, and he finally ... voluntarily ... agreed that I could use the Abatron for the hinge and head jambs, but not the strike jamb ... cuz it took the most force when a door was closed. Then, out of the clear blue, he pops off and says that after I finish fixing the gothic arched transom, there wouldn't be a need to replace the original styained glass, just go ahead and put in a piece of decorative plywood. (After a previous renovation, that particular transom was covered on one side by a dropped ceiling and thus did not transmit light, but it was still very visible from inside the chapel.)
I said I would gett back to him, went home and sent a two sentence email to the archy saying that I was withdrawing from the job.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
my response is to the original question
i get the inspector on the phone and find out what they want to see
and get it done
and make sure they remember me as a person who works with them
and next thing you know they don't bust my nuts so much
much better to get along until they are wrong beyond belief
And that's why I'm opposed to building codes and permits and government inspectors. It's not about safety. Safety's just an excuse. It's about power
Seems to me like throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Considering the unbelievably shoddy and criminally dangerous work I've seen, I can't imagine how screwed the pooch would be with no inspectors or code.
Regards,
Tim Ruttan
And that's exactly why I stand by my original post suggesting that you remove personal pronouns from a business letter (with the exception of a marketing/sales letter, of course!).
Personal touch is for talking in person. Business letters are strictly business, not nice, not nasty, simply impersonal.
Regards,
Tim Ruttan
I realize that this is somewhat off the thread here, but in many ways this is a prime example of beauracracy run amuck and an inspecting authority not having a clue as to what they are talking about.
I've had this in my back pocket for a while and until now had forgotten about it. Read, Enjoy and LOL!!
This is an actual letter sent to a man named Ryan DeVries by the Michigan Department of Environmental Quality, State of Michigan. This guy's response is hilarious, but read the State's letter before you get to the response letter. SUBJECT: DEQ File No.97-59-0023; T11N; R10W, Sec. 20; Montcalm County Dear Mr. DeVries: It has come to the attention of the Department of Environmental Quality that there has been recent unauthorized activity on the above referenced parcel of property. You have been certified as the legal landowner and/ or contractor who did the following unauthorized activity: Construction and maintenance of two wood debris dams across the outlet stream of Spring Pond. A permit must be issued prior to the start of this type of activity. A review of the Department's files shows that no permits have been issued. Therefore, the Department has determined that this activity is in violation of Part 301, Inland Lakes and Streams, of the Natural Resource and Environmental Protection Act, Act 451 of the Public Acts of 1994, being sections 324.30101 to 324.30113 of the Michigan Compiled Laws, annotated. The Department has been informed that one or both of the dams partially failed during a recent rain event, causing debris and flooding at downstream locations. We find that dams of this nature are inherently hazardous and cannot be permitted. The Department therefore orders you to cease and desist all activities at this location, and to restore the stream to a free-flow condition by removing all wood and brush forming the dams from the stream channel. All restoration work shall be completed no later than January 31, 2003. Please notify this office when the restoration has been completed so that a follow-up site inspection may be scheduled by our staff. Failure to comply with this request or any further unauthorized activity on the site may result in this case being referred for elevated enforcement action. We anticipate and would appreciate your full cooperation in this matter. Please feel free to contact me at this office if you have any questions. Sincerely, David L. Price District Representative Land and Water Management Division ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ** This is the actual response sent back: ** Re: DEQ File No. 97-59-0023; T11N; R10W, Sec. 20; Montcalm County. Dear Mr. Price, Your certified letter dated 12/17/02 has been handed to me to respond to. I am the legal landowner but not the Contractor at 2088 Dagget, Pierson, Michigan. A couple of beavers are in the (State unauthorized) process of constructing and maintaining two wood "debris" dams across the outlet stream of my Spring Pond. While I did not pay for, authorize, nor supervise their dam project, I think they would be highly offended that you call their skillful use of natures building materials "debris." I would like to challenge your department to attempt to emulate their dam project any time and/or any place you choose. I believe I can safely state there is no way you could ever match their dam skills, their dam resourcefulness, their dam ingenuity, their dam persistence, their dam determination and/or their dam work ethic. As to your request, I do not think the beavers are aware that they must first fill out a dam permit prior to the start of this type of dam activity. My first dam question to you is: (1) Are you trying to discriminate against my Spring Pond Beavers or (2) do you require all beavers throughout this State to conform to said dam request? If you are not discriminating against these particular beavers, through the Freedom of Information Act, I request completed copies of all those other applicable beaver dam permits that have been issued. Perhaps we will see if there really is a dam violation of Part 301, Inland Lakes and Streams, of the Natural Resource and Environmental Protection Act, Act 451 of the Public Acts of 1994, being sections 324.30101 to 324.30113 of the Michigan Compiled Laws, annotated. I have several concerns. My first concern is... aren't the beavers entitled to legal representation? The Spring Pond Beavers are financially destitute and are unable to pay for said representation, so the State will have to provide them with a dam lawyer. The Department's dam concern that either one or both of the dams failed during a recent rain event causing flooding is proof that this is a natural occurrence, which the Department is required to protect. In other words, we should leave the Spring Pond Beavers alone rather than harassing them and calling their dam names. If you want the stream "restored" to a dam free-flow condition please contact the beavers, but if you are going to arrest them, they obviously did not pay any attention to your dam letter... they being unable to read English. In my humble opinion, the Spring Pond Beavers have a right to build their unauthorized dams as long as the sky is blue, the grass is green and water flows downstream. They have more dam rights than I do to live and enjoy Spring Pond. If the Department of Natural Resources and Environmental Protection lives up to its name, it should protect the natural resources (Beavers) and the environment (Beavers' Dams). So, as far as the beavers and I are concerned, this dam case can be referred for more elevated enforcement action right now. Why wait until 1/31/2003? The Spring Pond Beavers may be under the dam ice then and there will be no way for you or your dam staff to contact/harass them then. In conclusion, I would like to bring to your attention to a real environmental quality (health) problem in the area. It is the bears! Bears are actually defecating in our woods. I definitely believe you should be persecuting the defecating bears and leave the beavers alone. If you are going to investigate the beaver dam, watch your step! (The bears are not careful where they dump!) Being unable to comply with your dam request, and being unable to contact you on your dam answering machine, I am sending this response to your dam office. Thank You, Ryan DeVries &The Dam BeaversWe can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark.The real tragedy of life is when adults are afraid of the light.-Plato
In response to the initial post, I would like to say that I would appreciate the part about "Sec, 111111111 of chapter 999 of the International Building Code" This would make it into a learning situation, instead of just one of those "because I said so" or "because that is what this town wants" kind of deals.
Edited 8/14/2004 1:01 am ET by DIRISHINME
1. The best way for an inspector to perform his daily duties , is to be a servant of the people .
2. People except a lot easiar when they understand and a relationship is formed from working together rather than being ordered.
3. However ; Codes are state law and must be followed. At no time shall the codes be undermined by individuals seeking personal gain, code inforcement officers or anyone else.
From the start I know that we are going to end up at #3 one way or another . #1 works most of the time and #2 is included if they are the least bit willing.
#3. Thats an involved subject that doesnt seem to have realitive boundries as per cases involved. I cant really talk about any one instance but there are different levels of forcefulness needed per case it seems and a new one is always different .
Lets take a person that didnt know the code compared to a person that certainly does know the code and we will add on that this second person is also code trained. [such as a plumber , electrician , etc. whose actually tests from codes and recieve lisenses]
A person that didnt know needs help and understanding . He also deserves what help I can offer in my opinion.
A person that knows and blantantly defies the codes often falls into #3 variations of code enforcement .
Tim Mooney
I get along with 95% of inspectors just fine, and I'm sure I'd get along just fine with you. Everyone has an inspector story though, and I guess inspectors are just like everyone else - could be having a bad day. Matt
Yup, About two weeks ago four jobs called for an inspection before they were ready. It was very hot . [97 I think that fine afternoon] Three men that day fell out in exaustion on different jobs . One fell out on this job after I left. Any way , it was my thrid job that afternoon not ready. There were people who needed my time that I couldnt get to with the work load that day. I flew off a little bit and said" this is the second time you all have called for an inspection and not been ready. IM sick of it and it better stop here ! ".
Well, I wasnt too proud of my self and came back the next day and gave an apology, but told them I would appreciate some cooperation. They acccepted my apology and then told me one man quit and another fell out becuse of the heat. I still feel bad about it .
Tim Mooney
Years ago I was a lead man for a remodeling company. We were doing a fire job where Larry, Darryl and Darryl (of Newhart fame) had tried to dry out their 'produce' in the oven and it caught the kitchen on fire. We gutted the affected area which included one wall of an addition from around the 60's built on a slab. We had stripped the dw from the rest of the addition because the smoke damage was so extensive. The bottom plate in the addition wasn't treated wood and the Iranian inspector who could barely speak english and whose writing style was unintelligible informed me we'd have to replace all the bottom plate throughout the house. I got on the phone and called the inspector's office and talked with the head of the department. The next day they sent out a Mexican inspector. He agreed with me that the unaffected area would grandfather in and that we were ok when we replaced the plate with treated lumber on the one wall we had rebuilt.
The Iranian came back for the final inspection and passed everything even though he had an attitude toward me. It was a quality outfit I was working for so our work was always up to standard but for a few minutes during that final inspection, I was concerned I/we'd have problems with him. It all became a moot point when six weeks after we finished the project, Larry, Darryl and Darryl burned their house down...
In regard to your original question, I'd want to know what was necessary to correct anything not up to code but to this day, still won't try to bridge a communication gap because the inspector can't use the language. Aside from that one episode, I've never had a problem with inspectors nor their office on any project. Ultimately it comes down to taking care of my own business and letting them take care of theirs.