Replies

1. 
   Randy_Reid | Mar 30, 1999 09:09am | #1

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   I'll get things started by relating my own limited experience.

   I built our current 2200 sq ft, 4BR 2 1/2BA home 6 years ago and did everything myself except the utility work. I even built the cabinets and windows! The whole thing, without land, came in at $38 per sq ft. We now have a home that would sell for $160,000 and 9 years left on a 15yr mortgage that is currently sitting at $53,000. Not bad.

   A year ago, I built a cabin on our vacation 40 acres of woods and pond. Simple 24x36 rectange 2BR with a 7x30 screen porch. Everything is finished off like a house (insulation & sheetrock) but without any utilities. I even have some built-in bookshelves and desks and a 4x11 hand built bay window/windowseat. Woodstove for heat. Nothing fancy, but very comfortable and built for - get this - $10/sq ft!

1. 
   Randy_Reid | Mar 30, 1999 09:20am | #2

   *On a related issue, It seems to me much of the $$ put into many of the smaller-is-better homes featured in FHB are for things that simply appeal to those with taste for the finer things, like high quality/labor-intensive woodwork. Isn't there a place in "fine homebuilding" for homes that have the same overall design, but with down-to-earth details that might cut overall costs by 20% or more?As an example (and this is more "fine woodworking" vs. homebuilding, but...) I build a matching crib & changing table set for our (now 2) daughters. Similar designs in oak or cherry from the factory probably would have cost about $500+. I built ours for about $60 out of 1 sheet of 3/4 AC plywood and trimmed down pine from 2x4 studs! Everyone says it looks great and I agree! Of course there was about 20 hours of work involved...-Randy

2. 
   Guest_ | Mar 30, 1999 04:03pm | #3

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   I once did some repair and update work on an existing shower stall that worked out to 144.00 psf.

   As for building a house for 38 bucks psf. that is nearly your material only cost if you did your own work. Which is about right. Now if I got to build it for you and pay employees, their taxes and benefits and also turn enough profit after additional overhead for my self, I have to charge you a few extra bucks for building your house.

   At 38 bucks psf, you probably built a very ordinary home with no special features and no extras. Simple kitchen, limited woodwork etc... That house could typically be built for about 90-100 dollars psf here. By the way, what did the land cost you?

   Pete Draganic

3. 
   Randy_Reid | Mar 31, 1999 01:13am | #4

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   Pete,

   Obviously, the labor factor adds a lot (although double the materials cost seems like a lot to me) but I DID have the labor of all the utility work to pay for, so really we're just talking about foundation, framing and finishing materials, all of which could be done by an average crew in about 6 weeks, for $70,000?

   Anyway, It wasn't my intention to complain about labor prices, but rather the logic of putting a large portion of building budget into stuff that does nothing to offer shelter, just ego boost.

   As to having an "ordinary" home; in many respects, we do, but we also have two fireplaces, ceramic tile countertops, and pine flooring in the living areas. We have wrap-around built-in bookshelves & desk, three cedar decks and four brick patios worked into the landscaping. All on an oversized city lot with mature trees. Not bad for "ordinary".

   It seems to me that true middle income folks could enjoy "Fine Homebuilding", too.

   -Randy

4. 
   Guest_ | Mar 31, 1999 02:01am | #5

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   I did it all, I even made the glass for the windows and spun the fiberglass into insulation.
   PLLLLLLLLLLEEEEASSSSEEEE.

5. 
   Randy_Reid | Mar 31, 1999 07:40am | #6

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   cc;

   I'm not sure why you think this is about me. I use examples from my own life because that's all I know. I did build my own windows, believe it or not, because I had a particular look in mind (from a 1987 FHB magazine, in fact) and it would have cost $400 or more for each of the 32 30"x45" units in our house. The units I made cost about $50 to make plus a lot of work. They aren't quite as air tight or (probably) as durable as manufactured, but they are reasonably close and when was the last time you heard someone say they WANTED 50-year old windows in their house?!

   This is just the type of thing that bothers me about high end construction. It feels good to build the "best" but it doesn't always make sense in the end. Is it worth it to spend $5000 more on energy saving measures that save $50 each year? Is it wise to feature "modest" cleverly designed houses that cost $130psf to build when the same general design without the labor-intensive details & materials might cost $100psf? Sure, it's worth it to lots of buyers with extra cash to spend, but why should everyone else be doomed to live in suburban crayolaville? I would love it if someone took a lot of those houses in magazines, made some practical adjustments, and put a collection together called something like "great houses for real people".

   -Randy

1. 
   Lisa_W | Apr 01, 1999 11:32pm | #7

   *I heartily agree with you. We own a 30 year old Rambler (just bought). I'm so tired of tours of mansions when I look for information when what I really want is some nuts and bolts that will allow my middle class home to be as good as it can be. We would have loved a nice craftsman or victorian but where we live this is what is affordable and plentiful. Which is to say we are not alone--there are lots of people trying to make their houses look good that dont live in the styles of houses normally featured in magazines--colonials, craftsmans, mini mansions. It would be really usefull to have project(s) that had different levels to it--basic, with work that could be done later--or haw to convert regular plans to this approach. By the by, this site is fantastic for the basic, detailed info

1. 
   Randy_Reid | Apr 02, 1999 08:45am | #8

   *Lisa;Thanks for responding! Lots of things can make an otherwise ordinary home special. I wish I had a decorating touch, but I don't. My creativity is limited to what can be drawn on a blueprint. I love magazines like FHB and shows like "This Old House" on PBS, but many of their case studies become almost a joke when they spend more for a kitchen countertop that I did for my last (new!) car.I have to give FHB credit for featuring several relatively modest homes over the years but still, due to detail work and the the areas they feature where labor prices are high, the cost psf is usually quite high. I wish they would feature a "fine" home by a do-it-yourselfer or a doing-the-most-for-less house that doesn't look like it came from a kit.Good luck with your rambler :-)-Randy

1. 
   Frank_Van_Tyne | Apr 02, 1999 09:58am | #9

   *A lie!! I know a street of dreams home that had a ding in the Pergo become a dime sizehole, that grew into a quarter size hole that would have gotten bigger if it would not have have gotten replaced quickly. Remember, this is laminate, the same as countertops. It is good stuff.....in its place.

6. 
   Guest_ | Apr 03, 1999 07:02am | #10

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   Randy,
   Yours is quite a story. I have been in the "Business" for 15 years and I have finally found the time and money to build my own place. Cost at completion should run me about $65.00/ squ. ft. That will include stairs, doors, flooring, cabinets and trim from the cherry and sugar maple that came off my property. I did the framing, roofing, siding, trim, doors, installed the floors wood and ceramic, and I did the insulation. I called in a lot of favors but the help that I got on the labor was not always free. On all the stuff I didn't do I got what was considered great prices for my area. I don't consider my home typical. As a matter of fact I feel that it is a showcase for my talents and those of my friends that have contributed to my home.

   I think that FHB is a magazine set up in that light as well. Most of the folks contributing to the magazine are doing so in order to show off their stuff. I think that it is a magazine whose primary market is builders and architects and not necessarily happy homeowner do it yourselfer's. I have installed thousands of sheet of underlayment, but I have yet to do an 11 piece built up crown molding, that's the stuff I need to see.

   It would be great if FHB could please everyone but when they start highlighting the low end cabinet, oak strip floor homes with nothing special features, well, then I save a lot on my subscription renewal.

   If you want the homeowner special, get This Old House, they tend to lean in the homeowner DIY direction.

7. 
   Randy_Reid | Apr 03, 1999 09:50am | #11

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   Ken;

   Thanks! Your home sounds great, too! I wasn't intending to complain about FHB, exactly. As I said before, many of the homes they have featured have have been of the less-is-more variety and I find those (as well as the mansions) interesting. But it would be refreshing if they (or somebody) would feature ideas for making an otherwise ordinary home more "fine" that catered to folks with less money and didn't necessarily rely on artistic flair.

   Just one example; Lately I've seen a couple of houses that have used a layering of sheetrock effect on the ceiling that creates a 3D look if trim or decorative "framing" over the dining room table (usually done with a texture applied after). It's not a common practice around here and it struck me as rather clever. The materials used cost next to nothing. Because it's fast and easy to work, labor isn't a major cost.

   It's details with that sort of mindset that I, as a person who appreciates a quality home but will never afford anything much higher than average cost, would really find valuable.

   -Randy

8. 
   Randy_Reid | Apr 03, 1999 10:41pm | #12

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   I'm interested in stories of building for less, but would welcome stories about high$ houses as well as philosophical discussion about whether you get much "value" for high$ extras.

   -Randy

9. 
   Guest_ | Apr 03, 1999 10:41pm | #13

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   Randy,

   I also liked the drywall artistry in FHB... The key ingredient is an artist and a client to wants the art.

   Art is everything to me, near the stream,

   J