In reference to FHB’s recent article about vinyl windows “arriving”, I’m considering using them in an upcoming project (new construction, custom quality but not “high end”, 3200 sq. ft. at about $425K market locally).
I’d like to hear your vinyl “horror stories” or successes. If you used cheap stuff, thanks anyway; I’m looking for feedback on good quality windows, and your recommendations or lack of same. Brand names??
Replies
Perhaps I'm incorrect here, but I've never seen a vinyl window that wasn't "cheap" . I always thought that was why they existed; because they cost less than any other window on the market.
I've never had any problems or call-back issues with them (other than just general cheapness... I've never seen a vinyl window yet that an average ten year old couldn't break into with a butter knife.) At least they don't rot like wood windows do when water finds it's way behind the cladding.
I've installed a number of them and generally their OK, even in some high end houses. The problem I've had was with configurations like double casements. The dividing sash is big and thick and ugly, but can be made tolerable with some creative trim work.
I'm not fond of some of the larger windows or sliders simply because the frames are not always straight and true.
They can be made attractive on the exterior if they're trimmed out nicely. I often use brick mold top and sides and then make up a sill on about a 12 degree slope. From a distance (not too distant) they can look like a wood sash. (Anderson, Marvin, etc.)
They are relatively inexpensive but seem to perform well. I do wish there were more color choices or that they were paintable. (Most of my experience has been with Insulate brand).
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with a piece of chalk and cut it with an axe.
Edited 4/26/2002 12:14:27 AM ET by Notchman
Notchman- I used a dark green oil base stain on a white vinyl window about three years ago on a west wall getting some sun and it looks the same as it did when I stained it except for the spider webs. ( from real spiders not film cracks)
I am interested in the kind of stain you used. Did you use it over white vinyl? I always thought you cannot change the color of vinyl with paint or stain. Was it a solid stain, or a semi-transparent stain? Did It streak?
Tom
ok let's see Tom, it was an olive color oilbase stain I got from a local big box. Ive got the can but Im about a thousand miles away from it or I'd go get it to see to be sure. It could have been a behr stain.no...cupinol or cupinal sounds familiar. It was a solid stain. Now I remember...Camden Green was the color so find the manufacturer who makes a camden green. Anyhow, I think I went with two coats or whatever it took to cover the streaks of white that would occasionally show thru. It was a non-opening 6ft halfround wooden frame with the vinyl coating. I'm a simple DIYer but I make my living doing this kind of stuff and am always trying out new ways of doing things. I don't think the stain would be very durable in a contact environment like an opening window getting handled alot, but maybe. The half round I stained was on a second floor. I did a good cleaning of the vinyl prior to the staining and a light sanding with probably a medium grit to give the stain something to grip to. I seem to recall noting to myself that the stain was going on pretty thick. That's about it. Hope this will help you out.
Rez, thank you for the info. I am just gathering info, not that I'll ever do it. next time I go into the paint store I'll ask if there is a primer made for that. Somebody on another thread wrote that paints are so good nowadays that he can paint air if he has the right prime. So I'll investigate further.
Why do everybody say vinyl is cheap? Cheap in the sense of look? The price is sure cheap when compared to Marvin or Pella. Is this a snob thing? Can anybody explain this?
Tom
I think vinal windows perform a lot better than the alluminum we used to use in similar applications. They stand up better to moisture than wood and don't conduct heat/cold like alluminum. They are virtually maintanance free and are far less expensive initially. As someone mentioned earlier you can order them any oddball size and pay the same as the next standerd size, very versatile that way. There's a lot to be said for them.
But now I'm starting to hear stories about the toxins emmitted in the manufacture of vinal siding, and I wonder if vinal windows manufcturing leads to the same health risks. And, I think there's a problem disposing of vinal, since it's virtually rot free. All this makes me wonder if we are saving a few dollars now, and creating problems for our descendents.
My understanding of the problem painting vinal is not with the paint, it's with the vinal itself. The reason they are light colored is because light converts to heat when it can't pass through something; that's why dark sufaces get hotter in the sun than light surfaces. So anyways, I'm pretty sure I've heard that vinal has a low melting temperature. Real low. Like a 140 degrees or something...
Edited 4/26/2002 10:03:38 AM ET by jim blodgett
I think a lot of the vinyl or no on windows might be somewhat regional. In my area, where 95% of all new siding is vinyl (the other 5% is brick "accents"), most non-custom new homes have vinyl windows. Higher end have either Andersen 200 series or Pella Prolines, and truly custom have Andersen 400 or higher-end Pellas. I'm sure I'm missing some brands, but that's what I see. Anyhow, after touring about 40 homes in three large, expensive subdivisions (checking out the "anemities"), I'm pricing out a new spec, and for information I looked at the windows on these "expensive" homes. All of them in two subdivisions have Vetter ProV vinyl windows. To me they seem a little heavier duty than the cheap ones I see in other homes, and I know the builder is charging huge amounts (in the thousands), to upgrade to Andersens.
Anyhow, after pricing out the windows, Andersen 200's against the Vetters, I figure that I can save about $32 per window with vinyl...that includes prepainting the Andersen's from the factory, extra wrap trim on the vinyls, etc. I think (although I can't quite remember), that the warranties on the vinyl were actually longer than the Andersen, and the delivery time was shorter. And at $30 per window (and most of these houses had something like 30+ windows), I can well see why the builder would want to use cheaper windows.
Finally, I've heard, and we can probably do a check by websearch, that there are literally hundreds of vinyl window makers. I'm guessing that their price and quality range all the way from "where did they hide the wheels on this house" price range up to competing with better window prices. I cannot, however, really speak to longevity...as I've only done a couple vinyl window replacement jobs.
Except for an R value that surpasses the old single pane double hungs, I can`t think of a possitive regarding vinyl windows. I use them only when the homeowner puts me in a headlock and gives me nugies till I cry out "OK, VINYL, VINYL!"... and never in new construction.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
"DO IT RIGHT, DO IT ONCE"
OK Jaybird, I agree with most of your posts, but when you say you can think of no positives about the vinyl, what are you saying? Is it because they're inexpensive, come in only white or almond, what? Or is this just a Chevy/Mercedes thing?
I have to confess that there are aspects of them that I don't care for, as I mentioned, (and I point those out to customers) but whether it's a remodel or new construction, the choices for the window schedule represent a big swing in price...enough so that insisting on an Anderson, an upper tier Marvin, Pella, etc., can be a deal killer.
I just finished a house overhaul where the customer ultimately chose Andersons and they look great and I was happy to work with good stuff as always, but, for comparison, the entire package quoted for vinyl versus Anderson and Marvin was $2900, $13,000, and $14,500 respectively. That's a big difference and one worth consideration, especially if durability and performance is a big factor.
One other factor to keep in mind is that with vinyl, you have pretty much an infinite selection of SIZE...not usually that important in new construction but often a real bonus when replacing old wood sash windows because you can order the window to fit the hole and not modify the hole to fit the window.
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with a piece of chalk and cut it with an axe.
Edited 4/26/2002 12:21:31 AM ET by Notchman
Notch,
It`s really just a personal preference thing I guess. I try not to be that old dog whom you can`t teach new tricks, but sometimes I just can`t be swayed.
BTW... Marvin makes replacement sashes for the old double hungs. Pretty nice system, if your not already aware of them.J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
"DO IT RIGHT, DO IT ONCE"
OK, I'll buy that. I agree on the Marvins, too.
This personal preference thing is all over the place, actually...Individual suppliers, tool brands, components...I'm even fussy about what mill my lumber and plywood originates from.
I try to be objective, but...Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with a piece of chalk and cut it with an axe.