This article was in Smart Money and I found it interesting because the same advice doled out in it is the same smart advice I have been reading hear for years. <!—-> <!—-><!—->
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10 Things Your Plumber Won’t Tell You <!—-><!—-><!—-> <!—-><!—-><!—-><!—-> <!—-><!—-><!—-><!—-><!—-> <!—-><!—-><!—-><!—-><!—-> <!—-><!—-><!—-><!—-><!—-> <!—-><!—-><!—-><!—-><!—-> <!—-><!—-><!—-><!—-> <!—-><!—-><!—-> <!—-><!—-><!—-><!—-><!—->
By Dimitra Kessenides
September 19, 2005 <!—-> <!—->
1. “There’s an old plumber’s adage: ‘An ounce of prevention could cost me 5K.'”
Water is the single most common cause of household damage, according to a nationwide analysis by Safeco Insurance, a Seattle-based homeowner’s insurance company. From 2002 to 2004, 30% of home water-damage claims resulted from appliance failure and another 62% from faulty plumbing systems. The biggest culprits: water heaters and washing machines. And repairs are costly. Safeco found that American households with water damage spent an average of $5,000 for each episode in that same period. <!—-> <!—->
Some easy cautionary measures, however, can lessen the risk of water damage and dramatically reduce your reliance on plumbers. First, take stock. Make a checklist of your home’s water-based appliances and equipment — water heaters, washing machines, sump pumps — and note any wear and tear, especially on appliance parts (washing machine hoses, for example). Water heaters have a life expectancy that is hard to predict, so check yours monthly for puddling and follow all maintenance guidelines to a T. There might not be an immediately visible problem, but tanks can rust on the inside, leading to a rupture. <!—-><!—->
2. “I’m not really a plumber.”
Al Booker, a college administrator in Newark, N.J., decided to hire a handyman on a referral from a friend when he needed to install kitchen plumbing. “He came in and said he could do everything,” Booker says. While laying pipes, the worker damaged the kitchen floor and compromised the safety of the structure by cutting into the joists. Booker ended up hiring an experienced plumber to finish the job, paying twice. <!—-><!—->
A wide swath of the plumbing industry is made up of handymen, guys with tools and a little plumbing know-how. While some of these Mr. Fix-its are competent, many, as Booker learned, are not. The best way to minimize your risk is to hire an experienced plumber. Ideally, that means licensed, meaning he or she has demonstrated basic competency in written and hands-on exams and, in many states, assisted on a minimum number of jobs. Licensed plumbers are required to abide by state regulations governing how the work is done and to follow local safety and building codes; they’re also more likely to carry liability and worker’s comp insurance. In states without licensed plumbers, your next-best bet is a licensed plumbing contractor, or at least someone who belongs to a plumbing trade organization. <!—-><!—->
3. “My less experienced underling will be over in a minute.”
Risa Hoag, a PR firm owner, was surprised when much of the work in a new upstairs bathroom in her Nanuet, N.Y., home was done by people other than the plumber who gave her the initial estimate. That plumber, who was hired by Hoag’s contractor, visited the home and assessed the job, but one of the young men who showed up to do the work along with him was an apprentice who neglected to cap a radiator line, which eventually flooded and ruined the ceiling of the kitchen below. “No one checked his work, and we had to rip out a new ceiling,” Hoag says. <!—-><!—->
It’s common for plumbers to bring apprentices on a job; in fact, it’s a required part of the licensing process for trainees. But while in many states a licensed plumber is supposed to supervise, that doesn’t always happen. The best way to protect yourself is to negotiate personnel at the outset. Most plumbing companies, whether individually run or larger operations, have multiple jobs going at once, so it’s common practice to send employees or even trainees along with (or instead of) the guy whose name is on the side of the truck. But you can insist that a licensed plumber or plumbing contractor be present on the job, either working or, at the very least, to supervise. <!—-><!—->
4. “I don’t do cleanup.”
Plumbers will often rip up a wall to look for the source of a leak. Some will alert you to this ahead of time; others won’t. Many plumbing problems are hidden, requiring walls, tiles and floor boards to be removed. And while a little demolition is hard to avoid, many plumbers won’t repair the damage they’ve made, arguing that if the plumbing has been fixed their work is done. “You should always consider whether the job includes the repair of the house structure and cleanup,” says Marc Edwards, a professor of civil engineering at Virginia Tech, who specializes in home plumbing engineering. <!—-><!—->
If your plumbing job is part of a renovation, chances are your general contractor will be responsible for repairing anything that was altered for access. But to be certain, draw up a contract for any job (assuming it’s not an emergency) stipulating that the plumber will provide a damage estimate. <!—-> <!—->
When possible, hire a neatnik over a chaos machine. After the disaster in their home, Risa Hoag and her husband found a new plumber whose “truck was meticulous,” Hoag says. “He showed up with his own drop cloths and covered everything: rugs, hardwood floors. He kept the holes he made to a minimum, and he was immaculate.” <!—-> <!—->
5. “With a truck this size, you’d think I’d be well stocked. Think again.”
The truck of a well-prepared service plumber should have enough basics to handle most common emergencies: copper tubing, faucet parts, replacement hoses, rubber washers, fittings and standard tools. “You want to solve as many problems as you can in the one visit, so the more well stocked you are, the better your chances,” says Billy Silk, a licensed plumber and owner of Silver Spring, Md.-based Master Plumbing & Mechanical. But it’s common for plumbers to reschedule an appointment because they’re missing a part. <!—-><!—->
A good plumber should ask questions when you call the problem in so he’ll know what to bring in the first place. If he doesn’t, ask him what he’ll need and whether he has it. Requirements can change dramatically if the job is more than just a service call — part of a renovation, for example, or at an older home. Then it’s even more critical that the plumber be up on specific requirements or special parts needed. In some cases, a plumber may ask the client to obtain specialized fixtures or aesthetic items beforehand. “If the client knows what he wants and likes, or if a designer has gotten something before, he probably can get it faster than I can,” Silk says. 6. “This looked so much easier in the diagram.”
Hiring a licensed plumber assures a customer of a basic level of experience. But it doesn’t guarantee that he or she can handle absolutely anything that comes up. Several years ago, a client hired Harvey Kreitenberg, a Los Angeles-based licensed plumber, to install new fixtures made by a German manufacturer. “I wasn’t familiar with the products, so I asked him to give me one of each of the various fixtures to play around with,” Kreitenberg says. The client agreed, and Kreitenberg spent a few days testing the fixtures before starting the job. “I admitted my ignorance, and they appreciated it,” he says. <!—-><!—->
Be aware that even the best-intentioned plumber can get flummoxed; it doesn’t always mean that he or she isn’t qualified. Recently, there have been a number of innovations and changes in water heaters, for example, and there are many more toilet varieties than there once were, with different kinds of flushing mechanisms. If you have a special problem, or have fixtures or plumbing that is somehow out of the ordinary, say so up front. That way, the plumber will know if he needs to bring another expert to the job or needs a little extra time to brush up. <!—-><!—->
7. “Emergency? You’re tenth in line.”
Robert Pedersen and his wife arrived at their summer home in East Marion, N.Y., one weekend several years ago to find a large puddle of water in front of their hot water heater. It took several weeks, numerous voice mail messages and a rising tideline in the basement before their plumber visited the house. But Pedersen, a retired pharmaceutical executive, was reluctant to call anyone else. The home, built around 1910, has intricate plumbing and piping issues, and “he knows the house really well,” Pedersen says. <!—-> <!—->
While an unresponsive plumber might seem a sign of a shoddy operation, it can also be the sign of someone in demand. Because so many plumbers are mediocre, good ones tend to be consistently booked. If you find someone you like, it may be worth sticking out the wait, especially if your home is old or complicated. Tell the plumber you don’t mind waiting for a house call, but you’d like your phone calls returned promptly. He may be busy, but he’ll appreciate the loyalty and will want to keep your business. <!—-><!—->
8. “Move your sink? Let’s not and say we did.”
A plumber may tell you that moving certain fixtures — transferring a sink to a new spot in the bathroom, for example — can’t be done. But despite a few exceptions, such as moving a toilet, which is admittedly complicated, in most cases it’s doable, says Beaufort, S.C.-based architect Jane Frederick. It just requires some extra parts and a willingness to spend a little more time and money on a job. <!—-><!—->
When faced with a reluctant plumber, spend a few more minutes asking him to explain why your wishes aren’t possible; ask specifically about special parts that might be required. If, for example, the reason he cites against moving a bathtub is the distance between the tub’s drain and a pipe, the problem may be fixed by rerouting the piping or relocating a fixture, Frederick says. If your plumber says specialized parts are necessary, offer to find and pick them up yourself, and offer to reschedule the appointment. A demonstrated willingness on your part to help out a plumber with a more involved task gives him the incentive to tackle the job; so will your willingness to pay a little extra for the additional steps required. <!—-><!—->
A general rule of thumb: If the room you’re making changes to is on the first floor or in the basement, moving any appliance will likely be easier. First floors tend to have a crawl space underneath, offering easy access to the plumbing, and in basements pipes are often exposed, making work easier. <!—-> <!—->
9. “Job’s all done, and you’re good to go — theoretically speaking.”
Last winter TV writer-producer James Percel wanted to convert the attic in his suburban New York home into an office. Since there were two pipes jutting up from the floorboards, he thought he’d be able to heat the room by attaching a radiator and tapping into his home’s steam heating system. The owner of a plumbing company recommended by his real estate broker agreed and sent one of his employees to do the job. It was only after the rest of the room was finished that Percel discovered the heating system didn’t work. It turns out the pipes weren’t the right type for steam heat, but the plumber had never tested them to find out. “I’d just presumed he’d tested the pipes and checked for steam,” Percel says. “That seems so basic that I wouldn’t even think to ask.” <!—-> <!—->
But that’s exactly what you have to do. It may seem illogical — you’ve hired an expert to handle the problem, right? — but many plumbers assume it’s the client’s responsibility to double-check that existing parts work before making changes. Another lesson here: Ask who’s doing the work. Percel’s plumber was not the owner of the company, whom he’d spoken to and whom he thought he was hiring. <!—-><!—->
10. “I could’ve walked you through this repair over the phone. But, hey, there’s no money in free advice.”
There are many plumbing emergencies a homeowner can handle on his own, especially with a little advice from a pro. Silk, the Maryland plumber, says a good plumber should be willing to talk through a problem with a customer on the phone. Local plumbing-supply shops, he says, can also offer guidance and tips for simple repairs such as a leaky faucet or a shower-head replacement. <!—-> <!—->
John Rendahl, a sales associate at R&D Plumbing Supplies near Seattle, says many customers visit the store solely to ask how to fix something themselves. “We’ll coach our customers on how to repair a faucet or even a toilet,” Rendahl says. He recalls one customer who recently came in wondering about a problem with a 35-year-old Kohler low-boy toilet that wouldn’t stop running. Rendahl opened up a parts book, looked up the valve for that particular toilet and, based on the problem the customer described, recommended that he replace the tank ball. The customer bought the ball and went home to make the repair himself. <!—-> <!—->
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Replies
Not too bad but you have to be careful about taking that piece too literally.
The advice that first floor or basement jobs are easier. Depends. Here in Florida most homes built in the last 50 years are built on a slab. Unless there is a drain line within the sloping distance of the pipes going to the fixture your going to be looking at a jackhammering out the concrete or installing a lift station.
Also the last bit about tradesman not covering their bases, a radiator hooked up on inappropriate piping, it may not be a plumbers error. As an electrician I sometimes get over specified jobs. A HO demanding a very specific task be carried out. All well and good to be that specific but if the larger goal is a particular objective and the specific task isn't going to accomplish that objective your not likely to get the result you want.
If a customer tells me to get a circuit to work I troubleshoot it and make the needed repairs. If they tell me to replace the circuit breaker I replace the circuit breaker. If they want the circuit to work but tell me to replace the circuit breaker and the circuit breaker is not the reason the circuit is not working then they get a new circuit breaker on a circuit which still doesn't work.
I try to anticipate their objective but sometimes ill tempered and short HOs cut me off and, often in a loud voice, demand I do as they say. Sometimes driven by a need to ride roughshod on 'tricky and abusive tradesmen bent on dragging the job out'. Depending on time and patience remaining I may try to coax the larger picture out of them. Late on a Friday with three service calls pending they may get exactly what they ask for.
Sorry, but I think it is a great article for people who don't know much... :-) A few comments:
#3 - yea, well, no sheet!!! Same is true with electricians, and HVAC guys. Hopefully the licensed guy is checking the work, but personally, for the most part, I don't see the licensed guys actually using tools. If you do want the licensed guy, I'd expect to be paying in the vacinity of $100 an hour. Don't get me wrong... by the time he pays all the business expences, he's still not lifving in a mansion, but he may have a new truck (wish I did).
#4 - I'm not sure I'd even want a plumber to fix my drywall and trim. It's not what he does, DUH!!!
Didn't read the rest of the article. Obviously it's written by some reporter who will be giving advice on medical issues next week, and how to win the lotery the week after :-) Good luck on the lotery....
Edited 12/13/2005 8:14 pm ET by Matt
I have a terrific plumber who has helped me with many mistakes I have made in plumbing my house.
He told me that, early in his apprentiship, he was told "five rules".
1. Always have a pencil
2. always have a rule.
3. Payday is on Friday.
4. Always listen to your master.
5. Never tell your neighbors you are a Plumber.
Edited 12/13/2005 8:31 pm ET by fatboy2
I worked with my Grandfather when I was a kid, taking care of "winterizing" the summer cottages, after a few years of that, I went to trade school as an electrician, but I always remember my Grandfathers 4 rules;
1) Hot on left
2) Cold on right
3) Sh*t runs downhill
4) and paydays on Friday!!
And another little ditty was
Miss, I'm not the plumber, or the plumbers son, but I'll plug your hole till the plumber comes!! I was about 10 years old at the time and it was many years before I figured out what he was chuckling about when he said it.
You forgot Rule #5 from the Turd Herders Handbook.....
"Don't bite your fingernails!"
They did not tell him "water runs downhill"?
Good point on #4.I can patch drywall. And in small and undemanding situations I will give it a go. But on larger repairs and demanding situations a real drywall guy, the good one who's number is on speed dial, can do three times the work, twice as well, in the same amount of time as I can. I don't know how he does it but he can match textures like no ones business.We charge about $75 per hour while he only charges $50. Makes sense to me.
a true plumber told me this #11 if this was easy, everybody would be doing it.. 2+3=7
> #4 - I'm not sure I'd even want a plumber to fix my drywall and trim.
True. But the best way to find a good plasterer or drywall guy is to ask a good plumber or electrician.
-- J.S.
LOL
I tell people too much & most don't care they have the------just fix so I don't have too mentality.
I work in the Seattle area & when I had my own business I did mostly insurance jobs.
The majority of water damage jobs that I did were from plumbing but more of a user error than equipment failure.
Mainly kids flushing something too large for the toilet <like a little sister or brother> lol & from leaving a faucet on then leaving.
& to be honest just like any skilled trade you usually get what you pay for.
& dang it I can't find my far side pic showing early plumbers.
OOOOOOOHHHHHHH, this not be cheap!
That one?
I find it amazing how many people don't know where or how to shut off the water to their house??????????
I could probably earn a comfortable living if I advertised soley as a "Water Main Terminator".
Give the local fire dept. a few nights off per week as well.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
Rich,The Far Side you referenced used to be under the glass on the cashier's counter at the plumbing supply I used to shop at in Colorado. Always gave me a chuckle.Bill
That be the one
with the one in the back with golf clubs
I got a call from an excited renter and she told me the house was flooding as we spoke .
I drove over there and witnessed water running out the front door. She was seriously correct. I opened the door and there was a small water fall.
I terminated the supply but could not find the source as water was every where about 2 inches above carpet. But I did a reality check and went to the shop for rubber boots and a big vacumn.
The extaction took several hours and night time was falling . Finally the water had been sucked up and I could tell what was what . I turned the water back on and nothing happened except the commode was running . When the commode filled past the line I turned it off and water set high in the bowel.
After further review ;
She had let a turd and paper go down the toilet and simply walked off to the market. The commode clogged and at the same time the float stuck open supplying water. What would have been the odds of both happening at the same time ? Lucky me .
Tim
So who was the lucky one that got to filet the Brown Trout?
Tim <<<<<<<< raising hand.
Believe it or not, I had to deal with the exact same thing.The woman used the toilet,then went back to bed.I guess she finally got tired of listening to the toilet run,gets out of bed and "SPLASH",waters all the way back to the bedroom.I get paged,and by the time I get over there, the whole apt. is flooded front to back.I walk in and she's sitting on the couch in the livingroom like nothings happening.After a good hour with the wet-vac and some fans,i gave her a lesson on how to shut the water off in case something happens again,but it seemed to go in one ear and out the other.I remember thinking the same thing,"What are the odds of that happening?"
Yep , its got to trip open and get clogged during the same flush.
Then walk off and be unavailable for that kind of damage to happen.
I would assume to sleep or leave.
I also had a whole house flood from a washing machine. But those are diferent specs.
Tim
Or, after several days of rain, leave and the leach field fills up, the tank fills up, the pipes fill up, the basement fills up.
Been there, done that, got the wet socks.
SamT
You make a case for flooding sensors in bathrooms, laundry and by water heaters. The sensors are then connected to a central main valve that controls the water into the building. In anything more than a minor flood the sensors trigger an alarm, to tel you where the flood is coming from, and shuts off the water. If the technology could be ruggedized and perfected it sounds like a plan. I also like the idea of gravity operated floor drains and some sort of containment to keep any flooding localized.Of course I don't remember the well in the back yard or the outhouse ever causing a flood. Makes me wonder how much real progress we have made.
"Of course I don't remember the well in the back yard or the outhouse ever causing a flood. Makes me wonder how much real progress we have made."I've never heard an account of little Susie lodging herself in the flush valve...
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Of course I don't remember the well in the back yard or the outhouse ever causing a flood. Makes me wonder how much real progress we have made.
I gotta tell this to sumbody. It was funny .
Im at a Christmas dinner talking to excecs that run two different factories. Im there cause DW runs one too or believe me I wouod have been out of place there for sure. We were also attending a play so Ill add that it was a dinner theator. The play had three breaks of 15 minutes and some of the men would stroll out and smoke. I quit that but was dipping which factored in the story quite well. Ever now and then I would spit out to the side like any partaking hilllbilly.
Anyways , one asked me what I had done over vacation. DW and I built a deck and steps for one thing at the cabin. The other said great , I want to come see it ! Well we can sure have you out any time just you bring DW and we will have a feed too. After all we spruced up the out house too. Say what ? The out house . We remodeled it and gotter done with a new door and everything . Its only a one seater , but it flushes good! Both men walked off and said they needed to get back inside. Im standin there crackin up!
The truth of the matter is that was the honest truth. The other part that was left out was that we have a bathroom with running water inside the cabin. Im gonna ask them both to bring their wifes out and have a feed but I dont want their wimmin or them to know any different . They might not come out though. Then Ill have to work on that problem. Outta be some fun either way cause Ill make them uncomfortable if they dont come.
DW thought it would be cool to have one when we entertain a bunch and we are palayin horseshoes. So she talked me into fixin it up but Its growin on me.
Tim
Re: "After all we spruced up the out house too. Say what ? The out house."Thanks for the laugh.Thinking there is only an outhouse any taker on your invitation to visit the cabin would likely be a better sort of people. Pretty much exclude the stuffed shirts. Honestly and openly 'takin care of business' is not their style.
> Thinking there is only an outhouse any taker on your invitation to visit the cabin would likely be a better sort of people.
Nah. I'd come so long as the weather was OK. ;-)
-- J.S.
> I also like the idea of gravity operated floor drains and some sort of containment to keep any flooding localized.
Here in LA, water heaters are required to stand in a "Smitty pan", an aluminum pan about 2" deep and slightly larger in diameter than the heater. A drain line is plumbed from the pan to daylight. The T&P valve gets its own separate line to daylight. There are similar rectangular pans for washing machines, not sure if they're required. It may happen if it hasn't yet.
-- J.S.
No wonder I DIY everything.