1910 stone foundation, do I buy? (pics)
My fiance and I are looking to buy our first house. The one we are currently considering was built about 1910. The foundation and floor framing are interesting, to say the least.
The situation is this: the foundation is almost all below grade and is basically parged river rock. The support seems to be under the joist ends – in other words, the rim seems to be cantilevered by an inch or so. The supports are scraps of floor joist (they are full dimension rough-sawn) that have been used as shims between large river rocks and the floor framing. There doesn’t appear to be any rot whatsoever with the exception of a 3-4 foot section of the rim.
In these pictures, you can see how they shimmed the joist. The blocks are resting on a mortar/rubble base that is mostly intact. The floors are pretty level and very sturdy inside the house. There is no apparant tipping of the house.
It seems to me that I could just pull off the cedar under the water table, install a new, treated rim, and then patch in the missing three feet of foundation with block or even more river rock. Obviously this is not the most ideal solution, but jacking the thing up is not really an option.
I would really appreciate any advice and thoughts on this kind of fix.
Replies
Jesse,
I was expecting this huge job.
I wouldnt be afraid of that house. Even if it was lifted its a small place.
The conditions of the sandy soil have kept it looking well underneath, and the rim is probably rotting from the water collecting at that trim lip around the bottom of the siding. Also possibly wicking from the ground.
If you redo that lip, flashing would probably solve that, also any gutter system would keep the excess water down.
-zen
Edited 4/2/2005 5:13 pm ET by zendo
Just to clarify a couple things--there is no continuous sill (like a flat 2 X 8) on top of the foundation that the joists rest on, just shims made of pieces of boards? And the bottoms of the joists are just slightly above ground level? The river rock foundation--is it continuous or just piles of rocks under each joist end? Do you live where there is frost and if so, how deep does it go? The river rocks are just slightly below ground? (Not several feet?)
Seems kind of shakey to me and I wonder with all your joists so close to the ground (and is there ventilation?) that you may continue to have problems with rot, as well as with insects. Where is this located?
Others will probably reply shortly.
It's really hard to tell what the situation with the sill is/was. I can't seem to find a real sill, but this is the only spot where there is decent access. It sure seems like the rim and joists just sit on the foundation. The foundation is continuous and in quite good repair around the remainder of the house. There are no cracks. I can't tell how deep it goes - my 2 foot long screw-probe was hitting rock/cement as far down as I could reach.
The house is in Hamilton, Montana. We get frost - I think we are in the 32 inch zone but that is exceedingly rare. If I repaired the rim I would definitely put some vent holes with screen.
There is no rot whatsoever in the nearly hundred year old joists, nor are there any signs of insect infestation (we don't have termites, and I have never heard of ants being a problem here).
It seems to me that a hundred year old house that isn't tipping, swaying, or rotting anywhere else probably won't anytime soon. It is also very dry here.
Let me just point out that in the joist end picture you can see the next joist, which is the rim around the corner (if that makes sense), bearing directly on brick. This seems to support my belief that there is no sill.
Guess everyone else is eating supper. I gotta go do that shortly, but:
Maybe it's okay then, if it's as you describe and all. Glad the foundation is continuous and goes down a ways. Ventilation is a good idea. Others should be responding soon and they will give you other, probably more experienced, views of your situation.
I'm only gonna say this because you are a first time home buyer... Other than location, are you all attracted to this house because of it's "old house charm" or mainly because of the price? You don't say anything about the state of repair of anything else, but just be aware that there are bound to be a plethora of projects needed on a house of that age, and it would be easy to spend the purchase price again in repairs. If it's the old house charm that attracts you all, and you are willing to invest the time and money needed to bring it up to modern standards, I say go for it. Also, don't fool yourself into thinking you can undertake a whole house project with a short time period (months) and do everything yourself.
On the other hand, maybe it has already been renovated, has modern insulation, wiring, plumbing, HVAC, etc, and is all ready to go?
Re the rim joist, what about insulation? There appears to be none in the floor system. How would this fit into the equation? You could insulate the perimeter rather than the whole floor...
Not trying to be negative here - I love historic styled houses - just trying to get you to think about the possible different aspects of home ownership.
Good Luck,
You bring up good points. There is no insulation in the floor system, nor around the rim. The siding (cedar shiplap) has been drilled in every bay and insulation blown in - when - we have no idea.
It's gross inside - the seller has done nothing to make it presentable. The walls are dirty and the carpet beyond hope. However, the spaces inside are good. The kitchen is big and bright, there is a woodstove in the living room, in the center of the house, which will probably heat the whole place easily (though there is some sort of forced air system in the attic which I need to inspect). The bathroom has a shower and a tub. There is a dishwasher, and washer/dryer hookups. So at least it has been updated.
I got a job remodeling after college, and now, five years later, I am a timberframer but psyched to work on my own house, and know full well how much work is ahead. A lot of this query is about reassuring the in-laws that the foundation problem probably isn't as big of a deal as it might first appear.
We are buying an old house because I want something I can put a lot of sweat equity into. I walk in and I can see what it could look like in two years with a lot of work - and it doesn't hurt that there are two huge biotech expansions going on in the next two years in this very small town and this house is on two large lots in cool part of town.
Edited 4/2/2005 8:23 pm ET by JESSE_K
Sounds like you have a good handle on what is going on...
Also sounds like you are looking it from an investment standpoint too. Is the house situated on the "2 lots" such that one could be split off? Are building lots easy to come by around there, or scarce? Sounds like the town has some significant growth potential. When buying one's first house, there is a tendency to think you are gonna stay there forever, but the reality of it is you will probably move on to something else in 5 to 7 years. I'm not going to comment on your floor system issue because I think there are others here that are far more qualified for that kind of work than I. I do new construction. The problem does sound fairly superficial though.
Matt