Getting a little run around from the county.
Can someone look up code for me and tell if 20 amp receptacles are required for kitchen countertop areas? One call the inspector says, “yes, all countertops but not in cabinets (like for appliances)” another call to verify and inspector says, “no.”
Can someone look up the code and cite it.I realize there might be a local rider on that but at least I’ll have something to compare it to.
Replies
My first reaction was, "look it up yourself". I'm still amazed that some people do electrical work without having a copy of the NEC. It's not like it's expensive, or difficult to get.
But to answer your question, countertops must be served by no less than 2 small-applicance branch circuits. These are 20 amp circuits, but the receptacles can be 15 or 20 amp, and are almost always 15 amp. See Article 210, sections 11 and 52.
... you're right, the NEC isn't that expensive to buy, but it can be rather cryptic sometimes unless you have a firm grasp of the physics behind electricity and how the code-writers adopted them for things like how to size a panel.However, in this case, the NEC is clear. Multiple, 20 amp-capable circuits are the name of the game in the kitchen, and considering what people plug into the walls with wild abandon, I would consider even more. One toaster oven and a microwave going at the same time will easily outstrip a 15A circuit...I had my whole house wired in 12/3 for the outlets, even though we have 15A outlets and breakers, because I wanted to keep the temp of the wiring down (much of it is encased in Icynene).
Well,
I gotta ask.
Novice and curious minds want to learn, ya know.
How are common 15amp recp's hooked to 12-3?
Thanks
This is purely a case of alien identity
Almost all 15A Receptacles i've seen can take 12AWG wire. The only ones I've seen that don't are real pieces of garbage that don't have screw terminals, but only have those back-stab holes. But I don't think they should be used in any decent installation.
Yep, the things should be outlawed.
...all I need is the air that I breathe...
There is a great website that deals with this stuff:www. Mike Holt.com. It is a forum for electricians and has answers to all these questions.
Whoops, I had the nomenclature wrong... I meant a three-wire, 12AWG circuit (i.e. live, neutral, ground), a.k.a as 12/2. Thanks for the correction, I forgot that electricians don't count the ground. On the other hand, 12/2 AWG hooks up to outlets quite nicely, as long as you buy a good American brand that has proper terminals and the like. The extra twisting had my electrician complaining a bit, but IMO it was worth it.As far as dedicated circuits go, I totally agree that built-in microwaves, refrigerators, disposals, etc. and the like will have all the juice they need. What I meant to point out is the prevalence of non-dedicated outlets powering toaster, standalone microwaves, etc. , at least in the elderly building stock of the NE where I live now...The concept of dedicated outlets seems to be limited to new construction or when gut jobs are done. As best as I can tell, people only add more wiring as the old stuff gives out. When we started our renovation, our house had a timeline of wiring standards, starting with knob and tube and ending with 1970's ROMEX. Plus, a lot of lighting circuits in the basement were running off of one giant spider web of extension cords, a real plus.
In Canada code requires a 240V circuit in the kitchen, with split receptacles, red feeding one side, black the other.
Does anyone ever use it for anything?
Shout out to Andy C. Namaste my friend.
http://www.hay98.com/
Toasters, microwaves, etc.
240v toasters and microwaves? Are they any better then 110v? Now you have me curious.
Shout out to Andy C. Namaste my friend.
http://www.hay98.com/
Now I just started to realize that the NEC calls for 20A duplex for the kitchen counter. When you guys talked about 20A in the kitchen I thought you meant 20A splits.
Dan didn't mean we run 240V toasters and microwaves, they are still on 120 but we run them on splits, 14/3 to split duplex.
You mean 12/3
Shout out to Andy C. Namaste my friend.
http://www.hay98.com/
You mean 12/3
No, Gunner, 14/3. Remember these are 15A splits.
On a kitchen counter? Are you posing?
Shout out to Andy C. Namaste my friend.
http://www.hay98.com/
Unless there is a difference in code, in Ontario code allows 14 gauge for 15A and 20 gauge is required for 20A. So to put a split 15A receptacle to a kitchen counter you run a 14/3.
Think may be that's the confusion when Dan mentioned 240V to the kitchen counter.
Here are some discussions of the Ontario code.http://www.selfhelpforums.com/showthread.php?t=199http://electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum3/HTML/000074.html"The new Subrule (26-700(12) states that effective January 2003:(12) Receptacles located in kitchens and installed within 1 m of a kitchen sink along the wall
behind counter work surfaces shall be protected by a ground fault circuit interrupter of the Class ####type.""3. In dwelling units, Rules 26-712(d) and 26-722(b) require that kitchen counter receptacles be split
receptacles connected to multi-wire 15 amp branch circuits. Rule 26 -726 permits the installation of 5-20
RA (T-slot) receptacles connected to single 20 amp branch circuits as an alternative to split receptacles and
circuits. In both cases adjacent receptacles shall not be connected to the same branch circuit.""Receptacles that are located on either side of a kitchen sink shall not be considered as adjacent for the
application of this requirement and can be connected to the same branch circuit when applying this new
rule."Editorial comment. a) is seems that like the discussions here the code writers don't understand the difference between 15 amd 20 amp receptacles. Abssolutely no logic for the GFCI's to be 20 amp receptacles.b) It seems to me that they took a complicated system and made it more complicated and no improvement in safety or convience from the US standards.
Edited 5/15/2005 6:29 am ET by Bill Hartmann
The current crop of 120V toasters are too wimpy because they're limited to 1500W. Give me a 3kW/240V toaster that can actually burn some bread!
And you call yourself a man. I laugh at your "3kW/240V toaster". A real man spikes the white bread, to the wall with a framing gun and has at it with a flamethrower. Of course it has to be white bread. God made bread to be white and anything else is unnatural. Real men don't do unnatural. If the wives and/or girlfriends objects, and your a hen-pecked mama's boy, you can fire up your oxy-acetylene rig with rosebud tip. Which is about as close to handling flowers as any real man should get.LOL.
The modern mans guide to life, an excellent book gives a pretty good recepie for blow torch pork chops.
Shout out to Andy C. Namaste my friend.
http://www.hay98.com/
Actually, if you meter them you'll probably find they don't draw over 1000W. Toasters have been "dumbed down" so that you don't burn yourself on the outside, set something on fire, etc. You can toast stuff faster with a Bic lighter.
But I was just reading that now there is an exception for the those next to the sink. Becaue they are just now requirement GFCI protection and only for those by the sink.So I think that they need to run 3 circuits. (Unless they want to to $$$$ 2 pole GFCI breakers).
In Canada code requires a 240V circuit in the kitchen, with split receptacles, red feeding one side, black the other.
Dan, unless I'm reading you wrong (or if some new requirement has been put in the code since I last checked), that's not a 240v circuit the NBCC requires. There are very few domestic kitchen appliances aside from electric ranges that run on 240vac in North America. I don't remember seeing any in the last 15 years.
What I remember the code calling for is 2 separate, dedicated, 120v/20a circuits, each one of which feeds one double outlet body usually installed in duplex in a 4x4 box at counter height. These two circuits cannot have any other outlets on them. All other outlets must be on a third circuit.
For convenience and economy, we generally wire these two circuits from one run of 12-3, but that in itself doesn't constitute a 240v circuit. I frequently run 14-3 as a feeder to a room and then split one hot to the lighting circuit and the other to the outlets. (I always separate these, as one of my pet hates is having to knock out all the power in a room to be able to work on anything.)
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
Seems that Ontario code is different from the Quebec code, in Ontario split duplex is the code.
Can you tell me if they have changed the code to GFCI near the sink?
If they haven't they should. Here both the kitchen counter circuits have to be GfI.
Shout out to Andy C. Namaste my friend.
http://www.hay98.com/
I don't know the Ontario code at all, so I couldn't answer to any differences. I defer to my electrician anytime there's a code question and we work together on that basis. Usually I do the rough-in and fixture installations, and he comes by to check it before the municipal inspectors do their final pre-close inspection.
As to the GFCI's, again I don't know if they are now required, but I install them anyway in both kitchens and baths, and use AFCIs where computers or other high-end electronics will be plugged in. Cheap insurance....
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
"As to the GFCI's, again I don't know if they are now required, but I install them anyway in both kitchens and baths, and use AFCIs where computers or other high-end electronics will be plugged in. Cheap insurance."AFCI's don't do a damm think to protect electronics. And I doubt that the electronics have failure modes that would typically cause an AFCI to trip (at least before the electronics is already on fire).
AFCI's don't do a damm think to protect electronics.
Bill, I'm not sure that's true. Up here in the sticks, there are still many places where the service lines drop and surge on remote lightning strikes. And while it doesn't happen often (thank bog!) I know of at least one incident locally where a drop & surge caused arcing at the plug recepticals.
Hydro Québec has made great strides in improving the service network since the Ice Storm, but it's a big province and a lot of us still live in places like Suk-A-Frozen-Mukluk. It'll take time....
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
The AFCI trips on 2 different different things. One is ground fault current, but it is much higher level than GFCI (I forgot but I think that it is either 30 or 60 ma, while GFCI are 5-6). The purpose is to detect deterioated insulation.The other thing that it trips on is shut arching, I think in the neighborhood 80 amps.Now you are correct that things like lighting strikes or primary line crossed with the secondary can generate enough of a surge to cause an receptacle to arc over.However for that to happen you need a large surge voltage that will go through the AFCI, then to everything that is plugged into that circuit. Now assuming that the surge was big enough to cause enough arcing to trip the AFCI it be be AFTER the electronics are already fried.
Thanks Bill. I somehow had the idea the arc-fault trip would happen in milliseconds like the ground-fault trips. I'm gonna have to go back and re-read that article on AFCI's more closely.
In the meantime, I'm glad that I've always recommend a decent surge-protector in addition to the AFCI or GFCI. Suspenders and belt, ya know....
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
I have not looked at the spec, they probably do trip in millisecons, or more like 10's of msec.But the surges and damage to electronics occure in micro seconds.Where you have a problem I would start with installing a whole house surge protector.Besides the big items, you have lots of other electronic around the house. Ranging from fax and ansering maching to digital controls in washer, stoves, garage door openers, etc and of course the common microwave.
The code in at least parts of Canada requires two circuits, feeding split duplex receptacles.. While probably a 240V circuit isn't literally required, it's the most sensible way to handle this.Re the GFCI requirement (which is newer than the two circuit requirement), in theory one could use a 240V GFCI breaker, but GVCI breakers are expensive, and anyway it's probably better to have the reset closer at hand, so I would guess the tendency it to do it other ways. I wouldn't think it would be too hard to build a split duplex GFCI outlet for this duty, but don't know if there is such a thing.
I must be misunderstanding something about the way you define a circuit. Just because there is 240v coming into a box on a single run of 12-3 NMD cable doesn't make it a 240-volt circuit unless both hot legs are used to power a single circuit. At least that's the way I learned it. Is there some technical distinction you know about that I'm missing here?
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
It's 240 because of the shared neutral and the fact that it's balanced, so that there's no neutral current at full load. It's not legal to share neutrals between two 120V circuits.
It's not legal to share neutrals between two 120V circuits.
My electrical sub would be surprised to hear that. Especially as both phases of the main service power share the same neutral all the way back to the transfo....
14-3 is routinely used as a feeder to bring power for two branch circuits into a junction box with a single cable pull. From there 14-2 is used for each circuit.
I think you'd better check your facts, DanH. You're not making yourself look too good right now.
Back off, admit you goofed, and start over. Happens all the time....
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
"It's not legal to share neutrals between two 120V circuits.
My electrical sub would be surprised to hear that."
I was, too. ;)
They're called mutiwire branch circuits. Section 210-4 in the 1999 NEC spells out how they may be used.
You're twisting my words. When 14/3 is used for two circuits, the two MUST be on opposite sides of the 240V line, making that a 240V circuit.
You're twisting my words.
Listen, DanH, I'm not twisting anything. In fact I've been going out of my way not to call you a flaming twit with a burr up his bum. I'm always open to the possibility of learning something new...but in this case you are wrong and have been told so by several people more knowlegable than you (including me, but in the politest way I could find to say it).
When 14/3 is used for two circuits, the two MUST be on opposite sides of the 240V line, making that a 240V circuit.
Now look at that statement of yours: It doesn't even mean anything. The two what must be on opposite sides...? The two circuits? Or the two hots? And what the heck are opposites sides of the 240v line anyway? What line are you talking about? Do you mean the two hots in a 14-3 must run from different busses at the panel?
You don't know what you're talking about. You look as silly to us as I would to you were I to start trying to tell you how to debug some code in a program. "Yeah, dude, just check to make sure you haven't mixed in yer hexadecimal with yer ASCII. Run a search and destroy on it using an inverse Loglan algorithm...." Duhhh....
Bill Hartmann just taught me something in this same thread about AFCI's. I had an incorrect concept of what good they were doing and he's corrected that. Is it gonna kill me to admit that here in front of everybody? No. So why can't you just be a man and admit you screwed up? Is it gonna kill you?
Nobody knows everything. That's why these discussion forums are so valuable. We can all learn something new everytime we come here. I've been banging nails since Spackle came in orange and blue cardboard boxes and I was 4 feet tall, and I still learn things every time I log on.
You could to, if you'd let yourself....
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
I think that you and Dan or kniting over picks. I don't know if this term is used in Canada or not, but we are talking about what is called a multi-wire circuit, That is 2 hots on oposite side of the 240 supply and share a common neutral.Now US code allows that to use two single pole breakers for such a circuit unless;A) there is 240 load on the circuit.B) a device on a single yoke has connection to both hots. That is the case that we are dealing with here. Split receptacle with one side supplied by one leg and the other side supply by the other leg.Those require 2 pole (aka 240 volt) breakers.There are not any 240 volt loads on the circuit. I will leave it to the people that debate how many angels can dance on pinhead to worry about whether to call it a 240 v circuit nor not.But the fact is that if you make measures on the split receptacle you can find a combination that read 240.
AFIK the Canadin codes permit/require pretty much what you describe.
You can use a double breaker to protect two separate 120v circuits. You may use two singles on a run of 3-wire feeder as long as the two 120-volt circuits do not wind up in the same box.
The disadvantage of using a double is that if one blows, it takes the other down with it.
The advantage of using a double is that if one blows, it takes the other down with it--and when both circuits are in the same outlet box (as in two duplex plugs side by side in a 4x4 box) you don't fry yourself thinking the box is dead when there is more than one circuit in the box....
I'm not sure the code provisions dealing with kitchen counter outlets require the duplex plug to be split at the neutral yoke; but to be honest I'd have to check and I will. In practice what I ususally set up is what I described above: two duplex plugs in a 4x4 with each duplex powered from a different hot leg out of the 3-conductor feeder. This has always passed my electrician's muster up until now; but I'll be talking with him sometime this week and I'll double check this point while I'm at it.
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
>> When 14/3 is used for two circuits, the two MUST be on opposite
>> sides of the 240V line, making that a 240V circuit.> Now look at that statement of yours: It doesn't even mean anything.
> The two what must be on opposite sides...? The two circuits? Or the
> two hots? And what the heck are opposites sides of the 240v line
> anyway? What line are you talking about? Do you mean the two hots
> in a 14-3 must run from different busses at the panel?If you're going to run a "shared neutral" setup, you damn well better understand that it's essentially a 240V circuit -- that the two hots MUST be on opposite legs of the 240V line. Legally, one is not required to have a 240V breaker (ie, two interconnected 120 breakers), but it's a good idea, to help assure that someone later doesn't come along and move a breaker and put both hots on the same side.
If you're going to run a "shared neutral" setup, you damn well better understand that it's essentially a 240V circuit --
Listen, mister: it's not a circuit until it's used that way.
Circuit=circular=continuous loop through a load and back to the panel.
Until you connect a load of some sort no circuit of any sort exists. The type of load and how it is wired determines what kind of circuit you wind up with. Your failure to understand that indicates a basic and dangerous misconception of what you're talking about.
Now don't bother me again. You've exhausted my patience.
Gunner was right.
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
Adirondack Jack was right.
Shout out to Andy C. Namaste my friend.
http://www.hay98.com/
He really doesn't listen that guy.
Only one solution to that...IGNORE....
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
Yup.
Shout out to Andy C. Namaste my friend.
http://www.hay98.com/
I have been staying out of this. Mostly because the original point: Are 15A receptacles allowed on a 20A circuit? In a kitchen? In Canada? Pivots on the first point and it has been beat to death previously.IMHO it was never even close point. Most jurisdictions base their code on the NEC and the NEC is blindingly clear that a 15A receptacle, as long as it is not only single receptacle, can be installed on a 20A circuit. I could quote articles but why. The issue has been laid to rest long ago and most who think otherwise, outside of a lack of knowledge of prior threads, aren't going to be convinced by anything less than a ruling chiseled in stone by God's own hand. Not that this itself, or the claim, wouldn't raise some questions and debate.120v or 240v circuits? Is a shared neutral, IMO more correctly termed a 'multi-wire branch circuit', a 240v circuit. Well yes. In a way. But not in terms of this, kitchen counter receptacle as part of a 'small-appliance branch circuit', use. These receptacles are not intended to supply 240v. They are designed to supply only 120v. Even given split receptacle, a duplex receptacle where each socket is fed from a separate leg of the 120/240v service. To get 240v for use you would need to stuff a probe into the hot side of each receptacle sharing the strap. I know of no cord cap designed to do this. It is outside the intended use of the circuit and receptacle. Surprised me to read the contention that Canada allows 20A receptacles to be installed on a #14 fed, 15A, circuit. Couldn't find it in the portions of the Canadian code supplied. I think this was a misunderstanding or misstatement by the poster. Not a major error. Loose terminology but not unforgivably so. It would allow a 20A load to be placed on a 15A circuit. Not a good thing but the likely outcome would be, assuming the #14 wire was protected at the proper 15A, the circuit breaker tripping, as designed, before any damage was done.This forum isn't a classroom or professional seminar. Anything close, as long as any error is minor and an honest one, will do. Electrical work demands some precision but more in methodology than terminology. Electrician often use terms loosely in a sort of shorthand. More for convenience than out of ignorance. I try to keep my terminology correct. Sometimes I slip. Welcome to the human race.IMHO anyone who uses an open forum to be the last word on how to construct a home, particularly in electrical work, is a fool. A forum, which can point you toward the truth and illuminate the path a bit, should not be confused with the whole truth.I can, and have, walked people through installing a receptacle on a 20A circuit in a home. A mechanical walik-through is pretty simple. But it would take considerably more time and effort to impart the knowledge explaining the wider issues and context. Like: Why is there a set arrangement for hot, neutral and ground on the receptacle? What is the difference between the neutral and ground? What is a single-phase system? Apply the same walk-through for installing a receptacle in a home to a 3-phase industrial system and bad things can happen. It is a larger understanding of the underlying system and context that makes the difference. This sort of understanding is largely beyond the scope of this, possibly any, forum.I am often caught between providing at least a minimally informed opinion that may allow the HO to do the job and suggesting that electrical work be done by licensed electricians. For the HO the later is safer but sometimes unrealistic. The former is more dangerous to the HO but also a wider risk to society. I have seen people who have learned little more than how to install a receptacle who now feel they are electricians. We are a society that has made an art of overstating our qualifications. As if good intentions and optimism were enough. As if carpenters only needs to hammer nails and a sculptor just pounds rock.
Yep, I think we long ago established that 15A receptacles are allowed on a 20A circuit in the US, so long as it's a multiple-receptacle circuit (and no doubt a few other qualifications).I vaguely recall, however, that this is not (or was not, 10-15 years ago) the case in Canada, leading to some of the other differences we've been discussing. Some Canadian sparkies were "shocked" to discover that it was allowed in the US.
Edited 5/16/2005 8:27 pm ET by DanH
Yep, .............it's plain to me, the inspector will have the last word. even if he can''t make up his mind !
In other words fixit can't go wrong if he matches the outlet to the feed. maddog
So, where does the current go when you have balanced loads and zero neutral current?
Dan,In a 240v circuit, basically current flows in on one hot and out on the other (O.K., it's more complicated than that, but this ain't an electricity and magnetism physics board).And, FYI, a residential multiwire circuit is NOT a 240v circuit, it's a 240/120v circuit. It's not "essentially" a 240v circuit. It doesn't even have to be supplied by a two-pole circuit breaker, just fed from breakers on different poles of the service. It depends on the loads supplied. Terminology matters. I'll third Gunner's and Dinosaur's sentiments, if you don't know something, don't feel compelled to offer inaccurate, incomplete, or incorrect "information". Listen and learn; ask a question, or better yet, do a little homework first. Go to a book like Rex Cauldwell's "How to Wire a House" or Ray C. Mullin's "Electrical Wiring Residential".Regards,Cliff
I know exactly what I'm talking about. You guys just have your shorts in a knot, and don't want to admit it.Dino described a "circuit" as (from memory) "where current goes around in a circle". By that definition, if you have balanced loads on a split 240V setup, that comprises a SINGLE "circuit", since the current coming in one hot goes out the other.
"And, FYI, a residential multiwire circuit is NOT a 240v circuit, it's a 240/120v circuit. It's not "essentially" a 240v circuit. It doesn't even have to be supplied by a two-pole circuit breaker, just fed from breakers on different poles of the service. It depends on the loads supplied."In the case that we are talking about (Ontario code) each receptacle is split and wired with each half on a different leg.Thus there a 2 pole breaker is required. And 240 volts can be measured on that device.PS can you look at http://forums.prospero.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&msg=58244.1
Edited 5/16/2005 1:15 pm ET by Bill Hartmann
In a balanced circuit, you would have 220 volts running through two 120 volts loads but in series. Thus each load would get half of the voltage. This happens in a lost neutral but the results can be catostophic since you may have a low ohm load such as a computer and a high ohm load such as an iron on the othercircuit. The computer would get maybe 200 volts and release smoke and the iron would get only 20 volts and barely get warm. You will have to use ohms law for this stuff as well as series versus parrallel resistance rules. In series, the ohms add up and in parrallel, you use the reciprocal of the sum of the reciprocals. And then you can play with capacitancies and inductancies and Farads and Henrys.
It should be pointed out that you can have both hots on the same phase but then you would need a larger neutral. For instance, you could have two 15 amp breakers on the same phase but you would need a #10 [30 amp] neutral [white wire].
You should consult anelectrical theory book such as Delmar's Standard Textbook of Electricity by Stephen L. Herman. Look at the diagrams of the sine waves. The blask phase A waves go up while the red phase B waves go down. Add them together and they can. See, electrity is very simple.
Now, for three phase...
~Peter
You didn't need to explain it to me -- I just wanted Dino to explain it.
"In a balanced circuit, you would have 220 volts running through two 120 volts loads but in series. Thus each load would get half of the voltage. This happens in a lost neutral but the results can be catostophic since you may have a low ohm load such as a computer and a high ohm load such as an iron on the othercircuit. The computer would get maybe 200 volts and release smoke and the iron would get only 20 volts and barely get warm. You will have to use ohms law for this stuff as well as series versus parrallel resistance rules. In series, the ohms add up and in parrallel, you use the reciprocal of the sum of the reciprocals. And then you can play with capacitancies and inductancies and Farads and Henrys."Actually the computer would work fine. Most of them have switching power supplies that rated 100-250 volts.And you must already be playing with farahs and henrys to have 2 120 volt loads in series on a 220 supply.
I'm not trying to be an azz. But do you have a clue about what you are talking about? Have you ever done electrical work for pay? Have you ever had any work inspected and passed?
You've taken a simple code requirment and turned it into a 240v outlet. What the frick are you going to do with that? Kitchen counter circuits are required to be on a GFI recepticle. remember our friend the sink? If you use a GFI recepticle on the kitchen counter then you can reset it right there. And it's a whole lot cheaper then buying a GFI breaker.
Shout out to Andy C. Namaste my friend.
http://www.hay98.com/
This requirement predated the GFCI requirement. Not sure how they changed the code to handle both requirements. I vaguely recall some folks mentioning two separate 120V circuits, but four 12/2 romexes running into a single outlet box is apt to be a bit cramped.And I didn't turn anything into a 240V outlet. Never mentioned a 240V outlet.
This is why I usualy skip these threads. Bunch of dumbasses dolling out advice based on theory. I see things are never gonna change.
First thing. Protect all kitchen counter circuits with a GFI recepticle. I don't care what code predates this one. This is the modern code. And if it wasn't code, you should still do it. Unless your plane ignorant.
Second thing. The whole 12/3 thing started when one poster didn't know how to count wires in romex. He counted the ground and called it 12/3. Everyone else fell in like it was gospel. I and all other Professional electricians I know pull two seperate 12/2 feeders for the kitchen counter circuit and space receptcles per code. You've got everyone confused with this whole 240v thing. http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=58222.15
Now give your head a shake and think about your last statement.
" I vaguely recall some folks mentioning two separate 120V circuits, but four 12/2 romexes running into a single outlet box is apt to be a bit cramped"
When you run two 12/2 feeders to a kitchen counter you don't run them into a single box and feed your counter recepticles from there. Unless of course your stupid. You feed them to seperate boxes And keep each circuit seperate from the other, you only have two wires in a box.
It says in your profile that your a software guy from Minnesota. Nuff said.
Shout out to Andy C. Namaste my friend.
http://www.hay98.com/
The Canadian requirement (Ontario, I think) was for split receptacles -- top and bottom on separate circuits. Now I suppose you could use junction boxes somewhere so that only two cables had to enter each outlet box, but then you have to figure out where you can hide the junction boxes, yet keep them accessible.My familiarity with this is from about 15 years ago, and they were just getting around to requiring GFCIs near the sink, so probably there has been some accommodation since then. Plus, now that I think about it, I believe the required circuits were to be 15A, so it would have been only #14 wire in the boxes, making 4 cables a little more practical. But I know that at least in some cases the requirement was satisfied using 14/3 on a 240V breaker.Oh, and in this thread I wasn't "doling out advice", just mentioning a sort of cultural odditiy.
Edited 5/15/2005 9:45 am ET by DanH
So your going on something that you think you remember 15 years ago? The poster wants an up to date answer on a current code requirment.
Your way out of whack here. And your being very misleading. Suppose someone hadn't seen Stupid idea written all your your earlier post. And had actualy wired in a 240v recepticle. How dumb would that have been. And I never saw anywhere where you said that it was a cultural oddity. You presented it as fact and that you needed to have a 240 volt recepticle on a kitchen counter. Your still doing it.
Listen without dragging this out all day, let me give you this piece of advice. If you don't know for absolute certain what you are talking about in these matters. Read but don't respond. You can mess up alot of stuff by giving trash advice. And if your going to do any work on your own home please have the next buyer hire a licensed electrician to check out any, and all things you have done. Cause you don't know anything about basic wiring if you want to do things in this style.
Do the public a service and give advice on stuff you know for a fact.
Shout out to Andy C. Namaste my friend.
http://www.hay98.com/
So, how much wiring have you done in Canada?
what is this?
wintertime already?
...all I need is the air that I breathe...
I rarely drop into these threads because the question is usualy answered satisfactorly before I get there. And mostly after that it's software guys and the like who aspire to be something else but don't quit have the intellegence to pull it off. Because they get wrapped up in, you could, shoulda, I woulda scenarios, that don't even come close to answering or even relating to the original posters question.
A.J. was right.
Shout out to Andy C. Namaste my friend.
http://www.hay98.com/
No, but it's the weekend!
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
None. But the code appears to be the same. How much wiring have you done period? And the original question was whether or not you have to use a receptical rated at 20 amps on a kitchen counter circuit. Not about obscure Canadian codes.
Shout out to Andy C. Namaste my friend.
http://www.hay98.com/
Did you actually read any of it?http://forums.prospero.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=58222.36Ontario requirement for kitches are very, very different from NEC.Base requirement a multi-wire 15 amp circuit with split receptacles.But then they added an alternate of 20 amp (not 15 amp) receptacles on a 20 amp circuits, but still adjacent receptacles had to be on different circuits.But then they added a requirement for GFCI, but only with in 1 meter of the sink and the statement that with the sink the receptacles on each side are not adjacent.And there are many Canadain members here, so it is related.
It's not related to the original question.
A.J. was right.
Shout out to Andy C. Namaste my friend.
http://www.hay98.com/
Made me put the thinking cap on with that one.
Tried to imagine a scenario with pigtailing recp's alternately down the line red/black/red/black to share the load but that didn't make sense either.
Finally ended up figuring that you probably meant 12-2 but had to ask.
Cheers
This is purely a case of alien identity
I've always heard two 20 amp convience circuits for kitchens. I don't know that it is code, but it is a good idea. Microwaves need a dedicated 20 amp circuit. I don't know if that is code, but I have yet to see a microwave where the manufacturer didn't specify it that way. In kitchens, it seems that every manufacturer of every item is now specifying dedicated circuits. It probably is not a bad strategy to put a dedicated circuit in for every permanent item, including one for the microwave wherever it will go. If the microwave location is not fixed and you really wanted to be spiffy, run the wires from the outlets down to a junction box that is accesable after the kitchen is closed up. Feed the junction box with three circuits, one of which will be for the microwave, wherever it is plugged in. Be sure every wire is labeled carefully.Of course, since this is an upscale area, I suspect that the microwave is built in.
Microwaves need a dedicated 20 amp circuit. I don't know if that is code, but I have yet to see a microwave where the manufacturer didn't specify it that way.
Yep, and I bet those microwaves still come with 15 amp plugs! As Bill said, the only equipment anyone ever seems to have seen with a 20 amp plug is "real" commercial kitchen equipment; i.e., the kind you get at restaurant suppy houses, not the "faux commercial" stuff you see sold to high-roller HO's in fancy showrooms.
There was a discussion like this on a Woodnet forum I while back. 'Guy kept blowing the 15A breaker for his garage circuit with his contractor's saw. Someone pointed out that the saw manual said it should only be used on 20A circuits. Of course, it came WITH A 15A PLUG! 'guess the manufacturer figured they'd get too many "how do I plug this thing in" complaints" with the right plug, but they wouldn't get blamed for breakers tripping.
Edited 5/14/2005 2:23 pm ET by BarryO
Code for washing machines is also a dedicated 20 amp circuit. Many items pull much more current at startup. Table saws are a prime example. Just because a plug is not shaped for 20 amps doesn't mean it isn't safe for 17 or 18 amps that gets pulled at startup.
The rule of thumb is what Barry says. I don't see it in the code book where it specificaly says you are allowed to use a recepticle rated for 15 amps on a 20 amp circuit. And I don't think you will. Having said that, using 15 amp recepticles is generaly accepted based on the theory that counter top appliances don't usualy require a recepticle rated at 20 amps.
At least that's the story floating around the bar I hang out at.
Who Dares Wins!
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" based on the theory that counter top appliances don't usualy require a recepticle rated at 20 amps. At least that's the story floating around the bar I hang out at."Speaking of bars, one of the devices that I have heard comes with a 20 amp plug is a commercial margretta machine. "I don't see it in the code book where it specificaly says you are allowed to use a recepticle rated for 15 amps on a 20 amp circuit."No, it is specifically called out.I know that they have re-ranged a number of sections, but in 99 NEC this is all spelled out in Tavkle 210-21(b)(3) and 210-24 and section 210-23(a).
Yeah, I know, Look it up, but this is a debate running between myself, another contractor, the electrician, and the inspectors. And since I don't do anything but the simplest wiring, it seems like the electrician and inspector should be able to sort it out. But when I called the inspector to get clarification I got one answer and the other GC got another when he called. So I figured I ask the collective wizdom here.I think a wrinkle in this is that though the NEC doesn't specifically address this issue the general consensus of the inspectors is that it is prudent to use 20 amp rated receptacles for the kitchen. This is a high income urban area and everyone, just about, has or wants commercial grade appliances. And will at some point probably plug then all in on the countertop on the same outlet in some jury-rigged creative way.So, knowing how "creative" people are in using electricity, wouldn't it be prudent to use 20A receptacles, with appropriate circuitry, for countertops?
The 15 amp receptacles are RATED for 20A. They just don't accept a 20A plug.That said, it's basically no more expensive to install a 20, so if it keeps the inspector happy might as well do it. One advantage of the 20 is that it (in theory) signals that the circuit is 20 amp, letting savy users know that it's capable of handling multiple high-current appliances.
"The 15 amp receptacles are RATED for 20A. They just don't accept a 20A plug."Only duplex receptacles and only for the total. They are not rated at 20 amps one one plug.
Here is an other part that might have the inspector confused.
A lot of people think that because you have 20 amp circuits that you need to have 20 amp receptacles.
The only case where that is true is if you have a SINGLE receptacle on tht circuit. And even a one common duplex receptacel counts as TWO receptacles.
When ever this has come up I always ask people if they have every seen anything that comes with a 20 amp plug (one blade is vertical and the other horzontal and the only people that have see any is on some real commercial kitchen appliacnes).