A few questions, actually.
Anyone got a web link for DIY 220 wiring?
I am moving into a new shop, all of the 220 outlets are the locking type.
I want to change one of them to accommodate the plug on a Lincoln welder. 900 amp service to the shop, breakers and wiring are plenty big enough to run this welder.
What do I need to know?
I am not an electrician, and I will not be calling one.
Replies
This is a good source.
http://www.selfhelpandmore.com/home-wiring-usa/
But your application is not for the typical project that you are going to see.
First, before I get out my club and beat you senseless it 240 volts or maybe 208. But not 220.
There are several different configurations that you might have. There is a good chance that you have 3 phase.
So the first thing is to identify the receptacle that you have.
http://www.stayonline.com/reference-nema-locking.aspx
And what is the size of the breaker that controls it.
And what is on the welder?
http://www.stayonline.com/reference-nema-straight-blade.aspx
And what does the welder label say about power requirements.
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
I was hoping you'd show up here, Bill. Thanks.I'll look at all those links, and if the situation warrants, I will go find your club and bring it to you. <G>
As I recall, the plug on the welder looks sorta like the NEMA 7-15 but that can't be right.As for the locking receptacles at the shop, I'll take a closer look at them tomorrow morning, and I will take a meter with me so I can measure what's in there.If it is three phase, how would I know, and what does that mean to me for this application?
"As I recall, the plug on the welder looks sorta like the NEMA 7-15 but that can't be right."It is probably a 10 series. Which is what the old dryer and range receptacles are."If it is three phase, how would I know, and what does that mean to me for this application?"Assuming that it is overhead service look at the pole. If it is 3 phase you will see a group of transformers. But they might be a pole or 2 down the street.Then look at the drop cable. How many wires are there? If it is 4 then you have 3 phase. But there are still 2 types.Also look at the panel. Are there any breakers that are 3 pole (either 3 handles tied together or 3 spaces wide)?Is there air compressor still there? If so what is does the motor label say.And you can call the POCO.And measure the voltage on the different combinations of pins on the receptacle.It probably won't affect the hooking up the welder, but that depends on what voltage that you have and what the welder specs are..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
OK, I checked today. The plug on the welder is NEMA 6-50. My memory ain't what it used to be.I've got the corresponding receptacle. I'm going to change it out tomorrow and get back to work.Voltage measured 230.I notice one wide blade and one narrow blade. Any significance to that as far as wiring goes, or can either hot go on either blade?Ground is self explanatory.Welder says less than 50 amps.Thanks, Bill.
"I notice one wide blade and one narrow blade. Any significance to that as far as wiring goes, or can either hot go on either blade?"In many cases, including the common 5-15, 5-20, the wide blade is the neutral.On the receptacle charts neutrals are marked W. The hots are either unmarked or marked X and Y & Z for 240 or 3 phase.But if you look 6-50 neither blade is marked. On the "matching" L6-50 there the two are marked X,Y. Straight 240 (version 120/240 used by ranges and dryers) does not have a neutral, just 2 hots.Now the terminnals on the 6-50 should both be brass/copper color.And if was wired in conduit then you "should" have 2 wires that are not green, bare, white, or gray. Or in cable a white wire that has been remakred, typically with tape or a marker.But often remarking is not done.And specially with what you indicated with the wire don't be surprised to be surprised when you open it up.My guess is that the reason that the blade is wider is that they just ran out of combinations that keep a plug of one series/current rating out of the socket for a different series and current rating.While it does not show sizes in the chart, the configurations of the 5-50 and 5-60 are identical except for the postion of the wide blade..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
I'll tell ya everything I know.
If its 220, ya don't have to lick your fingers to tell if its hot, like ya do with 110.
No charge buddy.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
Edited 2/8/2009 11:46 am ET by Sphere
Outstanding. That's all I was wondering. <BG>I'm good to go now.OK, that's worth a story -- I used to have an electric dryer that the belt would come off sometimes. First few times I went to put it back on I would pull the fuses out of the panel. 220 is scary stuff.After a while, I got pretty good at putting the belt back on. One day I decided there was no reason to pull the fuses.You know the rest, but the details are worth hearing.A spent a few years as a firefighter rescueman, one of the things I still instinctively do is keep the palms of my hands facing me when I know there is a possibility of live electric that I can't see and might touch. That's how you search in heavy smoke and in the dark, crawling on your forearms, palms in. That way when you hit down or exposed wires the contraction tends to pull you away rather than close you around the wire.I've done it, it works.Now 60 cycle is pretty fast. When the back of my hand hit the terminal under the dryer, I cannot exactly tell you how many times my head hit the bottom of the dryer before I got loose, maybe only once or twice, and I do not remember making any sounds.My wife came in and said, "are you OK?"I said, "Yeah, I'm fine now, why?"She said, "I've never heard you make a noise like that."It's all funny if you live. <G>
And I've never used an ele. chainsaw to demo a wall with live 480V in it. LOL.
Worked at a pallet mill way back when, something about a voltage change from the Poco. we spent a non-stop weekend changing out the 'heaters' ( whatever they were) on every machine motor, I do know that it was all off tho'.
I limit my ele. to my house anymore, and I have wired whole homes working w/ a real ele. in the past, as well as a few factory type roughins. I respect ele. more than tools that eat fingers, cuz it's invisible, until it bites.
Good luck with your new digs.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
Thanks, man. Glad you're here.On a mostly unrelated note, what do you know about playing harmonies on a bass for a vocalist? I've been playing both kinds of music most of my life so far(Country AND Western -- yeah, like Her Royal Highness said, "three chords and the truth"), and just got picked up a few months ago by some blues-rockers. They seem to really like what I do. But I know I could do more for the vocalist. I can hear the opportunities. So far I have been seeing bass as connect with the drummer, pay very careful attention to the singer, and create an acoustic space with a tonal center, a rhythm, and an appropriate dynamic for everyone else to do what they do inside of.Last night I got started with minor third octave above double stops and just started to figure out about descending through a vocal line on a sixth.I am no instrumentalist, might never be, am actually still very much a beginner, but I love to play and these guys keep asking me back.So whaddaya know?
Whoaa..I'm a lousy bass player, I can and do pick out a walking line on the guitar and when actualkly holding a bass, I pretty much arpeggiate the chords ( going into the 7ths and 9ths and 11ths if I can do the math) or stick with a scale.
Seems parallel 3rds to the vocal is what I normally hear , but I never really aimed to get that involved, that or like you said, go a fifth..well you said sixth, but I think fifth is correct.
You playing a 4,5, or 6 string bass?Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
It's a four string American made 1977 Precision that looks like it has been in more bar fights than almost anyone I know, has the strings that were on there when I bought it in 1996, and the tone is amazing.I just happened to stop into a shop I had never been into before. There it was, hanging on the wall. all beat to h#ll. Everything I was ever looking for. I played a lot of far more expensive and countless cheaper ones. This is the one. It has that clean, pure C&W sound. I picked it up, the salesman said."here lemme plug that in for you" I said, "naw, I ain't got that kinda money."He was a good salesman. He plugged it in anyway. Musta seen the look on my face, he said,"I'll hod it 90 days for a third down."I went home and sold my flatbed Ford 1-ton and went back with the money in 48 hours. Never regretted it, that's for sure. Started out with a Peavy 115 amp, never liked it.Years later I fell across a trade on and old redface SWR (pre-buyout) and an 8x8 and a 15. Had no idea that's what was in there. I've since swapped the 8x8, too big to lug around, but miss it. I'm nosing around for a used 4x10 now. Gotta be a trade, no money.Like Townes said, ". . . the bottom's low and the treble's clear, but it don't pay to think too much on the things you leave behind."Last night I ran the bass through a splitter to a 10-watt Peavey practice micro-amp and an old Gibson G-20 that I bought at a garage sale for $20 and put a $80 SWR bass speaker into. Knocked my socks off. That wet, warm, slightly fuzzy and ever so slightly over-driven sound. Like just enough bourbon, one good cigar, and right about the time it hits . . .All out of unbelievably cheap amps. I read that HRB Keith Richards would mike a Fender Princeton on stage, it was the sound he wanted.One of these days when I have some money or trading stock I want to find a six string and see if I can actually figure out some of the things that were happening on Wrecking Ball. That bass line in "Where Will I Be" wrecks me.Still learning, still playing a few eighth notes on a very good day.
Edited 2/8/2009 8:53 pm by Catskinner
Emmy Lou's Wrecking ball?
I think thats gonna be Leland Sklar , good luck catchin up with him and his licks.
My 5st w/ the low B sounds like a freight train in heat, I have the Precision/Jazz PU's by EMG..good PUs. But I really don't play bass enough..maybe I ougtta get more practice in, but man, the days are short any more.
Oh yeah, To live is to fly..LOLSpheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
<<Emmy Lou's Wrecking ball?I think thats gonna be Leland Sklar , good luck catchin up with him and his licks.>>Yep, if I get a quarter of what he can do I will be impressed with myself.Looks like I was editing that last post while you were reading it, I realized there was a lot more to say about this thing. It seems not a lot of people get it about the old P-Bass sound, I can tell I don't actually need to say anything to you about it and you get it, it's just fun to think about as well as fun to play.Bought a bunch of effects pedals, gave most away. Don't need 'em.Good enough for Jamerson, good enough for me. <G>
Hey Bill,Got the welder hooked up today and got my first welding job with it, all within about an hour. Three sets of ornamental iron security bars for a local shop.Don't know if I mentioned this, but there is simply no call for what I ordinarily do (excavation and trucking) so I had to come up with some other way to buy beans and keep the lights turned on.Thank you for the help.Hey Bill
Maybe Dino will send down some of his "paint remover" and we can have a celebratory drink..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
What Jet didn't drink last August oughta still be in Ohio, unless my sis used it for antifreeze....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Ypu could always make up a short extention cord with the twist lock on one end and the recptical for the welder on the other,no fooling with the landlords wiring.
Wier/Barlow
That might be a good way to go, as I could keep the welding leads shorter that way, too.What is already there looks like two hot wires and a ground, I'll get after it with a meter tomorrow and see what's going on. The entire place was one big life safety hazard. I cut a lot out already.The electric water heater in the bathroom was run off an extension cord that had been taped up, plugged into a wall socket in the adjoining office. It was good and warm.110 outlets attached to wiring that had failed were pulled out of the wall and wired into extension cords plugged in elsewhere in the building.The cover on the panel has been welded onto the panel (this was a muffler shop, and I think drugs were involved somewhere).The wiring over the bathroom is just plain scary. If I take my time and be careful I think I can probably sort it out, but there are spliced together extension cords everywhere.One of these days I'll call an electrician, but it won't be tomorrow.
And here I was about to congradulate you on getting a shop with all the pwer anyone could want.
Clean burning natural gas is the energy independence future of America.
<<And here I was about to congradulate you on getting a shop with all the pwer anyone could want.>>I'll take it. Thanks. <G>
Well, I hope you enjoy the new shop.
What kind of extra duty are you taking on here?
Besides becoming a 'shade tree electrician'? <G>
Clean burning natural gas is the energy independence future of America.
<<Well, I hope you enjoy the new shop.>>Thanks, 'cat.<<What kind of extra duty are you taking on here?>>Whatever it takes. This economy has been really tough for about two years now. Nice of the gov't to admit last November that we have a problem. Means it's almost over judging by past experience. <G>I'm licensed as a GC and as an excavation sub, but I've always been able to do pretty much anything I set my mind to. Just because the eonomy is bad that doesn't mean people don't need something done. I'll figure it out. Mechanics, welding, equipment repair, I don't know. I don't even have the place all the way painted yet and I already got a valve job to do.This place was disgusting. Filthy, and one great big code violation and life safety hazard. But we had it less than 48 hours, plumbing is fixed, electric is about halfway there, it's clean, and halfway painted. Gotta sweep the parking lot tomorrow, there are flat tires waiting to happen everywhere.<<Besides becoming a 'shade tree electrician'? <G>>>Yep. I'm afraid that's not over yet. The rat's nest / snake wedding of wires over the bathroom is enough to scare a sober man.
Well, good luck all around. Does sound like you will do OK though. Glad to see someone stepping up to take on the challenge of the economy instead of just complaining.
I've been having a blast with that JD 110. That thumb is a charm. Really helps with the demo. And you were right about the size of concrete it will pick up. But I don't think I've pushed it at all yet.
Clean burning natural gas is the energy independence future of America.
"I am not an electrician, and I will not be calling one."
I'm an electrician and I won't be helping you
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I understand, I guess.If you ever find yourself in a position where you need to solve a geotechnical engineering, concrete, excavation, sitework, roadbuilding, or foundation structural problem, or if you ever need to diagnose or repair a heavy equipment or heavy truck diesel or driveline problem and you simply cannot afford to pay one more person that month, post your question here. Same for alternative construction materials and methods like adobe, straw bale, cob, alternative foundations, and so on.I'll be happy to help.
Reconsider. You're in over your head .... far over your head.
That's an unwarranted assumption. He's smart enough to know what he doesn't know...which puts him ahead of 80% of the population.
He's also bright enough to ask for advice. That puts him ahead of 99% of the remaining 20%.
Sorry guys; in this forum, trade arrogance of that sort is out of line. We're supposed to be here to help each other.
Maddog, I'm disappointed in you.
Just sayin'.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
I'm sorry too Dino, but "I'm not an electrician , and I'm not calling one" is no different ? I had no intention of even responding but I was honked off by the remark since once again folks here think that electricity is nothing more than recessed lights, switches, and receps. ..............fine with me as that is their universe
why is it always the electricians who are the arrogant ones around here ?
I won't work on houses, I haven't worked on houses in years and I'm not going to work on houses, but I have worked hard at what I do, but if I don't express myself politely
I get called on ityet, as far as I can recall I have never explained to anyone here how to troubleshoot, and one of the reasons is I tend to be abrupt with my answers since I don't l have a good writing style, and that's the way it's going to stayto be honest with you , I am reaching the point that I don't care what anyone does or says
I still exchange goofy jabs with some and just stare at the rest of ittime for my 1:45 nap
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>why is it always the electricians who are the arrogant ones around here?<
I thought that was the architects & realtors but now you're telling me to add the electricians to the group too? Sheesh! I can't keep up. :)
yeah , there 's usually some wisecrack about electricians in just about every electrical thread but realtors are another story.:).
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I thought you didn't troubleshoot here was because you were like me. The Google Mafia has it all taken care of. :)
C'mon C'mon and do..... The locomotion with me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3sCNRnn7GA
you got that right , I especially like the posts that start an argument because they don't like the answer or it's not the way they want to do it..
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It's frustrating to say the least. People make it a lot harder then it needs to be. Human nature I guess. As far as the original poster goes. I took it the same as you. And I had the same reaction. Now that he's explained himself I understand his deal.
C'mon C'mon and do..... The locomotion with me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3sCNRnn7GA
I wonder how many here do carpentry and homebuilding and the "little " electrical that's in their way, which might sometimes be a new service.and how many ECs are out there that somehow end up building walls and floors and hang doors because the electrical needs something to hang on to, I think the numbers would be far apart,
so far three of us had pretty much the same reaction but no sooner do I get called on my post , the sights swing over to reno.who happens to be an Elec contractorregardless, there is always some snide remarks about the how the electrician screwed something up and some rookie caught it and it's persistent here, like we're all too stupid to do anything right and no one else ever #### up as badly as us !!.
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Word.
C'mon C'mon and do..... The locomotion with me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3sCNRnn7GA
g'night !.
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there is always some snide remarks about the how the electrician screwed something up and some rookie caught it
'Dog, I'm going to anwer your post in some detail because I think the points you raised are important for all of us. So bear with me while I blather on for a bit....
There are two phenomena your complaint highlights: the inter-trade bitching and backstabbing that has become all too common--both here and on jobsites--and the micro-specialisation of building trades that has fostered it. IMO, neither of these is a good thing.
Electricians aren't the only ones who get pissed on by other trades. You may feel it more because you are an electrician, but I assure you every trade gets whacked at by every other at one time or another. Framers roll their eyes at architects who think if it can be drawn, it can be built; 'rock hangers scream about framers who don't put in enough blocking; the tapers bitch about hangers who spend all day singing, 'The tape is two inches wide!'; painters holler about the tapers who didn't skim-coat the ceiling for the gloss paint they have to lay on; HVAC installers grumble about framers who put in too much blocking; plumbers and electricians whine about foam guys who make it impossible to snake new runs in a remod; electricians gripe about rock hangers who nick wires with Rotozips; and trim carps hate everybody ...'cuz they come in last and have to deal with everyone else's cumulative screwups.
The problem is specialisation. It's all too easy for a framer to 'forget' some corner blocking at 4:52pm of a cold, rainy Friday. He'll be long gone when the rock hangers show up, and he knows it. Same goes for the hangers, who will be gone when the tapers come in, and for the tapers who will be gone when the painters and trim guys show up.
In single-house new construction and in remod work where a small crew handles almost everything themselves, this phenomenon is much less evident. Crews work together through the whole job, and each man knows that if he dopes off or screws up, he will be the one who has to deal with the consequences himself. That's a pretty good incentive to do it right the first time.
I don't know what the ultimate answer is; specialisation has brought some obvious benefits to the building trades and I don't see it going away any time soon. Maybe we're all just gonna have to suck it up.
I like to think, tho, that reducing the scale of building operations to the point where each crew builds one house at a time and all the specialists work together as a team, would give us both better houses and better inter-trade relations. Big GCs building 200-house subdivisions sure turn out high volume...but at the cost of low quality of product, and damn little quality of life for the guys wearing the toolbelts.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Good observations. Wish I could leave a job early on. I've got to stay from concrete forms to last coat of paint. First one there, last one to leave.
Dino, I have things to do while it is light out .... and I am not napping...... but I will reply later this evening..
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No worries, bro. I gotta go out and buy a new show shovel. Busted my old one at 10pm last night up on da roof....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
OK , Yes all of us tend to whine about everyone else being the problem in houses, but it;s been a long time but I do remember when carps and sparks got along , even if it was strained at best,
in fact when I left resi it was due to the run n' gun mentality that had become the accepted method of building, it went from a time frame of days to hours...... it was all about hours .
houses couldn't be built fast enough and developers were squeezing everybody to perform magic.... tract homes were piped, pulled and trimmed in 49 hours with more of your specialization by the sparksin fact I used to make up as many 200A services as I could fit in a pick up then drive around a site and sawzall a hole in the deck and mount the panel in the sometimes flooded basement, it was nothing more than a panel on plywood with a 2" elbow but the pipe jockeys could start their home runs we had to adopt the same practices as the carps, one guy did layout and screwed on the boxes, another piped it all, another pulled it, and the last guy trimmed it all,
(in fact when GFI breakers were new on the market ONLY the foreman could trim those out and he kept them locked up )but make a mistake and time went out the window, because no one had the right tools or material to fix mistakes by anyone else........ sometimes you lost your job !which is why I couldn't wait to do custom since the pace was more relaxed by comparisonby the time I got out of houses I was ready to fight anyone who touched my stuff.....commercial was even worse, but industrial was where I wanted to be all along and for my sins , I got my wish.. I also finally stopped needing a Code Book whenI found BT I was extremely gratified since I was taking my house apart and even though I knew what it was supposed to look like, I found a place that had the HowTo answers, so I pitched in with some answers of my own, and almost immediately got straightened out by Mr. Hartmann, 4lorn and a few others, but all was well .. !it's been a great time here, had some laughs been pi..ed off but nothing major until last fall when the pogrom occured........I know it's spilt milk and all that, but I didn't care for the treatment and ever since have been relatively quiet . so I had nuthin to say... literally until a couple days ago.....
I need to decide if I want this anymore, as it's become apparent that I was looking for an argument and got one, and have been thinking about 4lorn and how he felt when he pulled the plug, even if I was not his calibre, I feel pretty much the samebut man, that guy had a silver pen and so I think it's adieu, or is itau revior mon ami.
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Ohh Lighten up Francis. You aint allowed to go anywhere. 4Lorn was a jerk for the most part. Everyone remembers some sort of genius. I remember him as a guy that just babbled to hear himself talk. He was a PIA . That's the problem with this place. Too many do gooders want to make peace with every single person no matter how abrasive and self destructive they are. They all love to create Martyrs.
So there. Your staying.
C'mon C'mon and do..... The locomotion with me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3sCNRnn7GA
Well put. Ya beat me to it.
Glad I'm just a two wire guy, and missed the start of this thread by a couple of days.
Pimpin ain't easy.
C'mon C'mon and do..... The locomotion with me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3sCNRnn7GA
Get Money, Get L@!d.............
True Dat.
C'mon C'mon and do..... The locomotion with me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3sCNRnn7GA
how could I refuse such a nice offer ? I still think I'll sit in the corner and stink for awhile thoughtoo many culos .. not enough boots.
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I was thinking of you today. Want to come out of retirement and work with me. You would love my week so far. I've been running conduit with our shop foreman. What a dweeb. Totaly clueless about the procress but still wants to run the show. Questions everything I do like I've never done this before and whatever I'm doing is wrong.
My favorite part is when he starts dictating his own electric code. If I've heard it once I've heard it a hundred times. He hates the compression fittings I've been using. I just shrugged my shoulders and told him it didn't matter what he wanted these are code outdoors. "Well see were not really in the weather since this is hanging under a canopy. (Still outside in the weather) "We could have gotten by with those other kind." "Really what is the name of the other kind?" I asked. Then he goes on trying to describe a set screw coupler. The day ended with him asking me how I had joined to two pieces of flex together. "How'd you splice that flex?" " I didn't splice it. I joined it. Using the only way you can do it." "What did you use?" "Two flex connectors and a ridgid coupler." "I think you should have used a nipple." Then I had to show him the difference between a ridgid couple and a freaking nipple.
The guy exagerated his experiance and got grandfatherd into a license a few years ago. It's kind of handy for the company because you have to have a license on every job. The thinking was if they needed him there as a show piece it would be handy. The problem is. He thinks he actually knows something just cause the card says he does. We almost got into a fist fight a few months ago when he started hooking up wires in a hot panel while I was down stream making up a junction box. Total menace to electricity. The guy just goes right through me when we are working together.
Thanks for listening. Time for Scotch.
C'mon C'mon and do..... The locomotion with me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3sCNRnn7GA
you have to work around that BS all the time ?
too bad you can't just do it ALL his way, but he would just toss you under the bus then you gonna drink all the Scotch by yourself ? huh ?
'ol buddy 'ol pal.
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Nah normaly he stays at the shop or dies something else. He's not bad to do other types of jobs with. Around me and electric I think he's trying to look better then he is and he comes out looking worse. If he would stick to what he knows and not try to make up the rest then he'd be fine.
C'mon C'mon and do..... The locomotion with me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3sCNRnn7GA
and I don't remember 4lorn being a PIA, the guy seemed a bit long winded, but he explained things very well ....
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Hey! I got a cat to skin in the TAV..c'mon down..I got yer back..really.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
The 'pogrom' left a lotta people soured out, but it was--we better hope--a one-time screwup on all sides.
I dunno what it is about this place; it's different to any other forum I've ever seen or heard about. I go thru patches where I just don't have the time or urge to get involved...but they always come to an end and back I come. Good people here, and yeh mebbe a coupla idjits but that's life everywhere, man, and there's probably a lower percentage of 3D jerks here than there is at work.
I disagree with Gunner on very few things, but 4Lorn is one of 'em. I found his posts always illuminating (pun intended after the fact) and his writing style worth reading for its own sake. Given that good writing is so rare these days, and combine that with his extensive depth of knowledge, I am sorry he's gone.
But I'm glad you and Bill are here to keep the rest of us knuckle-draggers from blowing our heads off by hookin' the red wire to the wrong screw....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
I dunno I might be in a fug everything mode.. since I don't have to get up and drag my ornery #### to work anymore cripes, I'll probably just go back to launching stingers, and then you can yell at me all you want as long as you buy the next round.
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I hope ya like Guinness....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
I thought the stuff was paint stripper . but I am willing to learn !!
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Nah, the paint stripper is Lemonhart 151 proof rum....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
As for the paint stripper......
Where was that bottle??????
Actually, I think it was Lamb's Navy 151. It was at my sister's place, remember? I'd given it to her the previous summer, and she only took one sip in a whole year.
I know you remember; you were makin' RCs with it and steam was comin' outta yer ears....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
uh, pass !.
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LOL....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
OI!!!!!
Not the ones we forgot to drink the last time I was up there!!!!!!
'Dog, I didn't read his original comment as a slap at electricians; I read it as him saying, 'I need some help here guys 'cuz I can't afford to call in a pro for this stupid little problem that's just a bit beyond what I know how to deal with.'
To me, that's a legitimate request on a forum like this, especially from a regular contributor and fellow building professional who--we should assume--has got his head screwed on straight enough to follow advice from electrical pros intelligently. This is a different situation than when Mr or Mrs HO logs on for the first time and asks how to replace the 200A main breaker in his/her main service panel.
As for your writing style, just be yerself and tell people what you know when they ask. Nobody is gonna piss in yer soup if you split an infinitive or two.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
alright I'll defer to you, and cut the man some slack, But I didn't read it that waynow back to my nap before supper.
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Enjoy yer nap. I gotta go fold laundry before I can have mine....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
When are you gonna get caught up on your sleep and do what the other old timers do? Haunt the casino.
The wife and I went tonight for Valentines day. (I'm working next weekend so we had it this weekend.) Man it's depressing. Everyone wandering around like zombies with these dull blank stares. Really disconcerting.
She wanted to go because if you spend 30 minutes in the casino you get a voucher for a free buffet. They have a real good buffet. Prime rib and the works. The "free" buffet cost us sixty bucks, not including tip. We each took a twenty to gamble with. Once I logged my required thirty minutes I was broke. (Right on time actualy.) She lost hers right before me. I figured no big deal I'll pick up my Buffet voucher and we'll call it good. She played slots. I played video poker. Come to find out video poker doesn't count. So I had to pay another twenty bucks for the buffet. They got me coming and going on that deal. That's cool it will be years before I go back.
C'mon C'mon and do..... The locomotion with me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3sCNRnn7GA
there's one just over the state line about 15 minutes away, never been there and have no plans to go since I can sleep at home for free, but I know the type you speak of the FIL of a co-worker HAD to gamble or he would die or worse. he also misses his dead wife so much he gambles a few bucks for her too, .
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I've been to the reservation casinos out West. They are worse because it's usually smaller with chain smokers packed in. Been to a couple that were just double wide trailers.
Anyway. This is the third time I've been to this one in the last five years. The last two times we hit the buffet first then were to stuffed to gamble. This time they tricked me. Actually I would have rather blown off the gambling all together and just did the burn and turn at the buffet. But the wife insisted on going with the establishments wishes this time.
Man I feel like I'm going to give birth to a huge pygmy.
C'mon C'mon and do..... The locomotion with me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3sCNRnn7GA
Four Winds is supposed to be really nice inside since it was built " to blend in with Mother Nature" there is a lot of wood inside and out, someone told me that something like $18 million for the cedar inside . .Mother Nature sure charges a lot, but the buffet was to die for and when it opened it was around $18, but now it's about $30 I may stop there once just to peek inside but gambling is not something i need to do, your way sounds good though just take a bit and see what happens . I wonder if they lhave someplace you can nap.
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My wife has an aunt and Uncle that make a game out of stretching twenty bucks at a casino. They enjoy it. All the smoking and the zombie stares were getting to me though. I was glad when I tapped out.
For thirty bucks they better provide a place to nap between trips. That has to be one good buffet. I wonder if they let you use side boards on your plate?
Good night. Tomorrow is a run day. I hope I have this big #### baby before I go or I'm gonna be hurling street pizzas all along the way.
C'mon C'mon and do..... The locomotion with me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3sCNRnn7GA
I'm told it has prime rib, lobster, shrimp and crab as the favorites of fellas who have taken their women there for a night out, no gambling ....... just foodI hope everything came out ok.
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Had a release this morning apparantly it's going to come out in stages.
C'mon C'mon and do..... The locomotion with me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3sCNRnn7GA
is it time for a backflush ? you could use this stuff regularlyhttp://betterherbs.serrahost.com/Detail.bok?no=555
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Nah I'm good. In time this too shall pass. :)
C'mon C'mon and do..... The locomotion with me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3sCNRnn7GA
<. . . I read it as him saying, 'I need some help here guys 'cuz I can't afford to call in a pro for this stupid little problem that's just a bit beyond what I know how to deal with.'>>100 percent correct.Like everyone else in construction who I know, I'm struggling to get by. This new shop is a way to offer more services to more people, and hopefully get through this recession.I worked a trade out with a friend who is a plumber to fix all the frozen and broken water lines. As for the electric, it was pretty bad, too, but I've got most of it figured out.I know enough about electricity to know there are many more wrong ways than right ways to make the lights come on, and some of the wrong ways can lead to tragedy. I don't want that. I just want to replace one plug with another and do it right so I can go to work, that's all.The existing plug is 230v 50a as is the replacement.<<To me, that's a legitimate request on a forum like this, especially from a regular contributor and fellow building professional who--we should assume--has got his head screwed on straight enough to follow advice from electrical pros intelligently. This is a different situation than when Mr or Mrs HO logs on for the first time and asks how to replace the 200A main breaker in his/her main service panel.>>Kinda struck me the same way. <G>Dino, I appreciate your graciousness and gentlemanly influence on this discussion. Thank you.
I was commenting on his competence ... not his character. Subpanel in detached garage ... there's all manner of issues to address ... one could literally write a book ... and this guy is still learning his ABC's.
... and this guy is still learning his ABC's.
That's the unwarranted assumption I called you on in the first place. You are assuming--in the face of convincing evidence to the contrary--that he's too ignorant to learn something that you yourself had to learn at one time.
OTOH, perhaps I'm making an unwarranted assumption here myself: I have no way of knowing that you weren't born knowing all this stuff.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
All I can do is infer from the questions asked his level of expertise. Then there's my 'gut feeling.' Sure, I might be wrong ... but he asked for my thoughts, and I gave them.
Even if he did start out saying he wasn't going to hire this out ... IMO he should.
I make no claim of any particular talents. I do observe that it takes 5 years of education, as well as experience, to even be allowed to take a journeyman's test .... and many still manage to fail. When California recently instuted testing for working electricians, something like 3/4ths failed.
Those facts suggest to me that there are some things you can't learn in a three line internet answer. Or even a three page one.
but he asked for my thoughts, and I gave them.
No, he did not. He asked what he needed to know to change out a twist-lock outlet for one which would match his welder's power cord. That's a very simple and very clear question: "What do I need to know?" That is, in fact, the first question an intelligent man asks when any problem faces him.
Instead of responding, however, you puffed out your chest and talked down to him like he was a 3-year-old asking how to drive the car.
I think you owe the man an apology.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Yep.
Hell. I asked a qutestion here a few duys ago about any tips about frozen ground and trying to dig a hole.
Does that mean that I need to hire an excavator and watch Oprah til he's done to write him a check?
So all those foundations and pools that I dug ( with the same tools my excavator uses) are out of my skillset just because I asked fior a tip from here?
Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
Edited 2/7/2009 7:29 pm ET by JHOLE
Well, opinions ... we all have them.
But it would be crimnal for me to send that lamb to the slaughter, uneducated and unprepared.
And that's no exaggeration ... for me to imply that I could educate him in this thread, to the extent his post suggests is necessary, would be criminally negligent on my part. Should he kill himself, I could face a homicide charge.
Considering the trained folks who die plying their trade ... the risk of harm is very real.
To suggest to this guy that "you can do it, we will help" is grossly irresponsible.
Not on my conscience.
<<That's an unwarranted assumption. He's smart enough to know what he doesn't know...which puts him ahead of 80% of the population.He's also bright enough to ask for advice. That puts him ahead of 99% of the remaining 20%.>>I like to think of myself that way. Thanks. <G>Yes, except for the six years I specialized in wrecking things quickly, most of my life has been about building. Been in construction a good two weeks now, seen a few guys get it bad with electricity, some lived.Got nothing but respect for the stuff.Just thought I'd check in here with some folks who actually know what they are doing and see if there was something about this that I should not learn the hard way.I have to say, I'm a little surprised by the attitudes.<<Sorry guys; in this forum, trade arrogance of that sort is out of line. We're supposed to be here to help each other.>>Struck me the same way. I have described on a similar forum for a guy how to safely load and unload an excavator on and off a drop deck. He'd never done it, and needed to do so at work the next day. So I told him how, he did fine, and got to keep his job.I have slid 20 ton machines off the side of a mountain in the rain and mud onto a steel dropdeck just so (there is no room to spare), I've slid them off of dams, off of 14' cuts, and even got one up on the right idler (no other part of the tracks touching the ground). If you do it just right it looks really cool, if you do it wrong you are dead under a quarter million dollars worth of junk.Of course I probably would be a little reluctant to try to teach a rookie how to do that on a discussion forum. But I doubt if I would just brush him off, either.So tomorrow I'm going to shut off the circuit breaker, change the plug, and go back to work. For those who helped, thanks, for those who came on with an attitude, I don't care. It doesn't matter. You aren't under any obligation here. You just missed a chance to pay it forward, and I (and anyone else reading along) missed a chance to learn something from you.
Edited 2/8/2009 9:39 am by Catskinner
You need to know whether or not you need a permit............