heh, heh, heh…. when i grow up i wanna be your builder
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Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
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What do you think? Have you encountered others who use this method of billing? It certainly puts all the financial risk on me. Am I crazy or is this contractor crazy?
Well , lets put it this way ;
Your post doesnt make much sense to me from the start of it .
This type of house is what I normally buy and redo since it is the age of house that sells the best on the used market for profit or rent .
Since you can do all the work , it doesnt sound reasonable to pay this price . Not only that but for anyone . You your self can do the same thing with subs for much cheaper .
Tim
$2500/week Billing Rate.
That's not bad. That's about what it costs to pay someone $25/hr.
$215/sqft in Silicon Valley is absurd? I woulda thought that was the median there.
What's your finish material, D&W, and appliance specs?
Well, he's asking for a gross of $125K per year based on working all year at that rate, or $62.50 per hour. That might sound high to you if you consider it an individual's wage, but if you hire any of the larger, established remodeling companies in your area you'll easily be charged $60/hr. and up for the lead man assigned to your job, PLUS you'll pay a markup of at least 20% on all materials and subs. So, he's asking to be paid less than they would be paid. I was in the East Bay until about 3 years ago, working for top-end companies, and I know exactly what they charge. I'm sure it's no different in the South Bay.
If your guy is providing licensed, insured service, is absolutely great at what he does, and is hooking you up with the best subs and vendors at no markup, I'd probably consider it. Now, if he IS that good, maybe he should do the job fixed-price for you, and assume some of the cost risk.
For what it's worth, I try to bill out a minimum of $750/day for myself and a mid-level guy, and I'm happier when it's closer to $900... and we're not in a market anything like California.
I think it sounds OK - not extremely high, not extremely low. You say it puts all the risk on you, but you also say you know how to do all the work, and expect to be working "sweat equity" into the project. I think if he gave you a bid price, you'd be expecting him to take the risk for your work. Plus, if you're paying him a weekly rate, you can cut him loose at any point you feel he's not worth the price. And if your sweat equity speeds up the completion of the project, his weekly rate has likely cost you less than a bid price.
You say the price seems absurdly high - What will the value of the home be upon completion? What did you sell your previous remodeled homes for? You mention that it is a whole house remodel with no new square footage - as if that should affect his weekly rate. Why would it? Do contractors in your area routinely charge a much higher rate for new construction than for renovation work?
"...never charged nothing for his preaching, and it was worth it, too" - Mark Twain
I'm thinking that this fellows price is not too bad. He's probably a contractor who is terrorized with all the paperwork and billing required and has found a way to simplify his life AND spend more time on YOUR job by streamlining that part of his business.
Why shouldn't you take all of the financial risk .... he is building a "new" house for you. Maybe you can soften your risk by having the right to fire him if you are unhappy after a time period .... say a month or two.
$60 +/hr wouldn't be too high for my area if he is acting like a General Contractor and is bringing good subs, lining up and scheduling material deliveries.
If his reputation is good and you like both his work and him as a person .... I'd get him on the job tomorrow!
Good luck and keep us posted!
If you think $2500 per week is high, why don't you try one of those GC's that will only charge about $800 per week?
You'll soon find out how high their real cost is!
blue
I need to be finished in 6 months.
Why? Need to flip the house quick before a pereceived market changes, permit limits, ???
This part of it could be a whole 'nuther discussion. The folks I know in your area talk about $2 mil houses like commonplace, if you are going to flip it, so what, it is tax deduction cost consideration. If DIY and you are living there, why the 6 months.
I'm in the Evergreen area of San Jose and would charge about that much, too. Where is this house? Lots of the 50 - 60 yr old houses around here need quite a bit of work just to clear out all the homeowner DIY "improvements" that were made over the years - and get things up to current code.
Is that six month schedule based on the amount of work planned, or something else?
Price doesn't sound bad but how would you enforce his "gaurantee" that it won't run past deadlone? This is one I gotta know when nothing has been started yet so there are unknowns in the work.
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I am about to do something similar in NY. I have a 2200 square feet addition. My GC is asking for 1800 per week. He is guaranteeing in writing that the job won't take more than 6 months (if it does, he won't get paid extra to finish). He will also get a percentage (10%) of any $$ left in the budget. Same deal w/ the subs/materials; I pay...I have seen 2 of his jobs, a re-do of an office (our daughter's pediatrician and the finishing of a McMansion basement and the work is top notch.Ed
Also, his salary of $10K per month exceeds my own, and I have a degree and good paying job in computer science in Silicon Valley.
Are you sure you know how much you cost your employer ?
If your salary is 100K per year, do you know how much you really cost with taxes, pension, medcare etc. ?
It could be 200K for the total package.
For this builder, his annual salary is probably in the neighborhood of 60K per year.
Can you actually live in Silicon Valley for 60K per year ?
Would they let you live there without a degree ?
carpenter in transition
Maybe I missed something... is this a $2500/week deal or a $65,000/six months deal? I'm not sure how you can guarantee anyone anything like that. This deal should be governed by a contract that has a clear cancellation clause. He is not providing subs or materials or a fixed price or otherwise taking any major responsibility for the job, at least legally speaking. You need some leverage on your side... something that makes him essentially an at-will employee. Got lawyer?
Another idea to consider.
If it is a 2 story house, you should be able to get the upstairs and at least the kitchen downstairs done by yourself and keep your day job within the 6 month period. Then move into the upstairs and finish the rest of the downstairs at your leisure. You will have to give up ball games or whatever, 40+ hour weeks besides your day job.
Of course if your wife merely 'tolerates' construction zone vs. contributing, then you may have to pay the big bucks for somebody else.
DW and I built 5300 sq ft from bare land in 2 years, including septic, well, 500 ft of road, 2 toddlers, etc. You actually have quite a head start with the frame, basic elec service, sewer, etc already to go. DW was full time supporter, mostly taking of the toddlers and material orders, etc.
Remodels can be more expensive per sf because of all the hidden conditions and trtying to work around the existing building envelope. You're right about the building shell, but sometimes it gets in the way, like trying to bring in a one-piece shower enclosure.
If you work out a guarantee like someone else mentioned, whereby he doesn't get paid if the job runs long, you nee to be holding back some of his money every week as an incentive. If you pay as you go, and it runs over, he has no reason to stick around and work for free.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
OK, here's a few of my thoughts...
The reason why I thought his price is too high is because relatives in Utah are able to get a house built (new construction) for $75-$125 per sq ft. Also, his salary of $10K per month exceeds my own, and I have a degree and good paying job in computer science in Silicon Valley. With those wages, maybe I should quit my job and become a builder.
In my humble opinion, this paragraph defies logic, and if I was your builder and knew that this kind of nonsense was your criteria for judging my renovation rates, then I would walk away from this job before even beginning. BTW, if this is indicative of your business sense, I would stay away from contracting. If you were to start bidding renovation work in Silicon Valley, California, based on the square foot prices your relatives in Utah paid for a new house, you're going to get in trouble real quick.
The reason why I thought a whole-house remodel should be cheaper than new construction is because there is no excavation/forms/concrete for a new foundation, no framing for a new floor or roof, and the basic structure is already in place, although some interior walls will be moved around. Even when adding 1-2 weeks of demolition (comparatively cheap labor) - yes, I do expect remodeling to come in at a lower per square foot price than new construction. Am I out to lunch with that assumption?
Yes, I 'd say so. Not to mention, there is no "sqare foot price" involved, based on your original post. Which makes the comparison even less logical.
Specs are medium-high: Cabinets ordered from Lowe's
based on past experience, I'd factor in 4 weeks minimum of delays due to errors in measuring/ordering from the Lowe's cabinet sales staff
I need to make a decision by Friday on whether to use this guy. I like the idea of a clause that says I can cut him loose if the arrangement is not working out
I would say that if you're paying him weekly, then either party has the option to walk away from the arrangement if its not working out. I would specify that if the agreement is terminated mid-week, then his pay will be pro-rated based on percentage of week worked.
I would also specify what a "full-week" means to you, so that he is aware of your expectations. Are the hours flexible? Do you demand a minimum number of hours per week? Is he expected to arrive on-site by a specific time each day, and stay until a specific time? Since your posts indicate to me that you're going into this arrangement with a jaundiced eye, better to spell out your expectations clearly ahead of time, and give some thought to the details of terminating the relationship, since it seems a real likelihood.
"...never charged nothing for his preaching, and it was worth it, too" - Mark Twain
Really, if you are going to spend that much money, you should have a real contract, drawn up by a lawyer who knows construction. If all goes well, you still will have a clearly spelled out set of ground rules. If it were me, I'd want to specify exactly what he is responsible for, and what happemns if all does NOT go as planned. For example, > If he is charging you by the week, rather than worry about how many hours he is on the job, I'd like to see an agreed job schedule that specifies what will be done by when and permits a hold back of payments if deadline is missed. > Someone else mentioned holding back a percentage until the job is complete, This is standard in most projects of any size and is called a "retainage." The retainage is not released until all the agreed details of the project have been completed in a satisfactory way. It is almost essential.> Does he have an incentive to buy materials or schedule trades efficiently?> Is he responsible in some way for the overall cost, and does he have incentives and penalties tied to cost performance?> Can he bond this job?> Who is responsible in terms of time and money if anything goes wrong?>
Yeah - sorry about that. Not having a good day, I guess. =)
----------
edited to add: one of my clients owes me about 7k, and he's avoiding my phone calls. Guess I'm the one with the jaundiced eye right about now!
"...never charged nothing for his preaching, and it was worth it, too" - Mark Twain
Edited 7/31/2006 5:01 pm by Huck
As already noted, bear in mind that the contractor is not "making a 10k/month salary"- if he's licensed and insured (as he should be in CA), and is running a legitimate business, his overhead won't be huge, but it will nip into that $10k by probably 10-15%. Then, he's got to pay the employer's half of FICA and Medicare, which takes another 7.65%. Take into account a truck, cell phone, health insurance, and any tools/equipment that he may be bringing to the table, and you'll find that his "salary" is probably far below yours.
As a point of comparison, take your salary and add 50% to it- that's probably the minimum that it "costs" your employer to have you as an employee when you factor in health insurance, 401K match, sick/vacation time, etc. And that doesn't even consider non-productive time.
Is that $10k/month starting to look more reasonable now?
Bob
I thought the typical burden was closer to 35%. Other than that I agreee with your comments.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
If you add the 10-15%, the tax burden, the cell phone, truck, tools, etc., you'll be around that 35% in all likelihood. I wanted to break it down for him to make it easier to understand where the costs were.
Bob
Texas must have a cheaper labour burden.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
$387,000 16.8%
60yo. Plaster walls? Stripping them for new electrical and plumbing?
I live in Silicon Valley, so normal sanity does not apply.
But, you are comparing SV to Utah?!?
Calif law says that a contractor cannot recieve more than a pittance ahead of costs. It also says that the client will hold, IIRC,10% for 90 days, after completion.
His guesstimate of this job is $380-400K, he is allocating 16.8% of that for his businesses share.
I say "guesstimate," because I prepare a stick and nail Cost Analysis and give the client a Quote for the complete package. In California, I have to risk that $400,000 cost up front as well as $40,000 for an additonal 90 days. Here in Missouri, it costs my business something like $62.80 to pay a man $25.00/hr. The ratio is higher in CA. In 2000 a Union Carp was getting $32.80/hr in San Diego. My 'guesstimate' for my company do do that job in CA is at least $500K.
6 months is not a problem, if it's really going to be stripped, that is down to a bare shell with bare studs.
Found a great contractor who has consistent high quality, good attitude, flexible with me contributing sweat equity, etc.
And it sounds like he's will to do it for 17% of Cost including his salary. A conventional contract will cost you at least 35% over Cost.
I do think you should talk to a construction lawyer to find out what your CA construction consumer rights are. Take the Contract with you, ask about Lien Laws, Withholdage(word?), and required Contractor insurance.
ps: He's lucky if he puts $30/hr in his own pocket, Business is expensive.
Remodelong ALWAYS costs more per sq ft than new building. Lots of labour and disposal fees to undo it and fix it first before you start moving forward.
I had to laugh at the comparisson to Utah. CA is infamous for higher labour, insurance and other costs.
Q - is this guy licensed?
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
" But there needs to be a sanity check before agreeing to pay 2-3 times the price charged in other areas of the country. "
The insanity is in trying to compare new in one location to old in another.. barely even comparing one fruit to another, let alone apples to apples....
Why did you order kitchen cabinets when the demo worek hasn't begun yet? You are gettiung the cart in front of the horse and are likely to create highers costs by not working in the proper order. Thje old walls need stripped and shimmed plumb and straight before insulating etc. this will change the dimensions of the spacce where the ccabs will be installed.
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
Why did you order kitchen cabinets when the demo worek hasn't begun yet? You are gettiung the cart in front of the horse and are likely to create highers costs by not working in the proper order. Thje old walls need stripped and shimmed plumb and straight before insulating etc. this will change the dimensions of the spacce where the ccabs will be installed.
It doesn't matter. He ordered them from the Big Box. They're gonna be wrong anyway. Jaundiced opinion. =)"...never charged nothing for his preaching, and it was worth it, too" - Mark Twain
Only problem is his price. He wants to charge a flat rate of $2500 per week
He must be the best carpenter since Christ.
well, that just can't be true. No one is that good, but his price is not high for the area. I can't even afford to visit Mountain view, CAI knew a couple with good paying silicone jobs. They were living with inlaws for two years before they could aford a down-payment
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I guess I live in da wrong place since I make a lot less money than said builder dude. But that's the trade off to living where there are no traffic lights and the rats are actually losing the race. I suspect I'll get to see first hand how the other half operates since my niece lives in LA and if my guess is correct will be calling 1-800-uncle builder before to long.
I'm not a contractor....I make cusrom furniture for a living. I have done a bit of construction though. And I have completely remodeled my house. So with that intro:One thing that I don't believe has been brought up. Just how much of the nail banging, the actual work, will this contractor be doing? Will he spend most of his day "overseeing" the subs, ordering materials, and other supervisory tasks? If so, you could probably do this yourself and hire a journeyman carpenter to help you out during your sweat equity time. Talk to your employer to see if you can get some extra time off to visit the house everyday during working hours to talk to the subs. Maybe you can make up the time to your employer by working later. However, if this potential contractor will be actually pounding nails then maybe he's worth it. My remodel didn't have a budget but I'm sure we exceeded it anyway.
on a job that size, I spend about three hours a day average on management, orders, scheduling, etc.Less than enough and things ball up to where everybody gets slowed down and in eah other's way
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
And for every sub on the site, someone else is spending the same time.SamT
Hi Gblotter,
Boy! You sure hit a nerve here on this forum! Thank you. I'd like to work for you. Not because I'd be making a "huge " salary but because you were thoughtful enough to come to this forum and I think I could develop a very good working relationship with you. People like you are my favorite customers because I suspect that you are reasonable and can think through problems. No, I'm not going to move to San Jose and try to take a job away from your contractor but I did spend much of my youth in Willow Glen. The following comments may seem harsh but I mean them in a very friendly way. I have been doing contractual woodworking for about thirty years and hold a BS in Biology degree.
I also work in a government town where most of my customers have advanced degrees and they are at first surprised at my charges. The think they make a good wage and should be able to easily afford me. They can. Why?
#1 similar to your guy I may make more money per hour than they but its only for 6 months - I'm not moving in with you and staying forever.
#2 How much money do you make/ hour? You are probably on salary. I don't need to know but this is vital to keep in mind and relates to #3
#3 What do you take to work that is yours? I know (I'm not being smart here) the clothes on your back - so does he. How about pencils? I'll bet your employer supplies those. How about computers and software? Who pays the light and heat bill (or air conditioning in your area)? He does and needs these things to provide you and the IRS with business documentation .... called overhead. I'll bet most of the things you need to work are supplied by your employer and all of the things your contractor are supplied by himself. Compare those items to your salary ... it'll take the difference down a bit I'll bet.
#4 Health insurance: You probably participate in your insurance plan with your employer at some split of the preminum. He has to pay full preminum himself. This is a big one: What is the worst accident that can happen to you at work? We can all get wiped out commuting ... but what is the worst thig in your job? Well ... he can fall off a ladder and right now I have a close friend who got injured at work by falling off a 6 foot ladder. THe doctors are not sure but fear he may be a quadaplegic. Another this summer cut his palm with a knife .... severed both tendons and nerves and and his right hand is paralysed. Couldn't afford insurance. It could happen to any of us at any time.
#5 There is alot more but realize also this guy's efforts, wisdom and skill is increasing your property value. He is getting a wage.
#6 Remodel always costs more than new construction. Sometimes lots more. Additions cost the same as new PLUS a "connection" fee.
#7 Square foot costs in general mean nothing to a contractor. What matters is how many corners, how many windows and doors, what quality of furnishings, materials and quality of surfaces (smoother = more). Square foot costs are relative to floor square footage but also wall surface footage.
#8 Remodeling a 60 year old structure in California will cost more than Utah!!!!! For one thing are the walls straight? How about the floors ... are there termites? What affect will earthquakes have had on the structure. If nothing else codes will have a huge affect. Now structures must be retrofitted and tied together to ward off earthquake damage.
#9 Negotiate to a point where both of you feel comfortable. You both must get something out of the deal to be successful. TALK out insecurities. TALK, TALK,TALK! Then start.
#10 Your help may not be much or as much as you might think.... ask him when and what. If you don't have enough time to complete a task .... get out of the way. The last thing he needs is another uncompleted task. Ask when the best time to meet with him is. For me its in the morning ... the worst is in the afternoon when I'm scrambling to finish my days "to do today task" module. Others are different about this ... ask.
#11 Protect yourself. Put in a "down the road clause" in your agreement for yourself but give him room to get the ball rolling. Sometimes starts are very slow appearing ... kinda like Chinese cooking .... chop, chop, chop, chop and then the flame hits the pan and Bham! You are done. Maybe work out a general schedule of pivotal dates so both of you can track progress ... talk and work together and figure how to best get back or keep on track / schedule. We are all optimists or else we'd never get into this business. A helpful, cooperative client ALWAYS makes me work harder and I throw in many more "freebies" .... a difficult client I nickel and dime at every turn ... after all I may work with my hands but I'm still human.
#12 Changes cost $
#13 Good Luck! .... there is more but its 1:00am, I'm tired and have to work tomorrow. Keep us posted and ... really ... thank you for bringing your project to us. You can email me.
Tom
Edited 8/1/2006 5:15 am ET by Homebuilder1
"The layout of the cabinets is such that the cabinets will fit regardless. Not a worry."
Y'uh huh! Maybe
Better hire this guy quick so you have some experience on hand. Huis first assignment is to find a place to store these cabs where they won't get damagfed and won't need to be mved twenyty times before they are installed and will not cost you extra for all the other subss to have to work around them taking them longer to do their work.....Time is ticcking away on this six months
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Excellence is its own reward!
"The layout of the cabinets is such that the cabinets will fit regardless. Not a worry."
Many don't. they are terrible businessmen and something like 90% go belly up after a few years
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
As I work for a little Not for Profit theatre group, please forgive my ignorance of the For Profit construction world. What are you getting for your $2500 a week?
As you stated, he'll be swinging a hammer, and supervising the subs, but is he also paying the subs from the $2500?
Phat
Never underestimate your ability to overestimate your ability
Have you read the rest of the thread now?
Now you know.SamT
Actually Sam, I've read the entire thread - which is why I asked my simple question. Piffin at least, in an obscure way, answered me.PhatWhat ever happened to the concept - The only stupid question is the one not asked?Never underestimate your ability to overestimate your ability
Edited 8/2/2006 6:16 pm by Phat
Actually Sam, I've read the entire thread
Now you have. Since your post, #44, was in reply to #1, it was questionable.
I suppose it is possible that you surfed thru 3 pages to read the entire thread, then went back to post #1 to ask your question.
But I think Piffin nailed it. Your a and the question was in jest. SamT
Sam,I don't wish to start any sort of pissing contest. As I stated, I have been following the thread since it was posted, and I thought my question was reasonable. My background is not in the realm of what, or how, a GC charges for their work.And yes Sam, there are many who would agree that I am a clown. However, I'm wondering how many out there recognize the gentleman in the photo... Phat
Never underestimate your ability to overestimate your ability
Phat,
Anybody who clicks on the photo will soon recognise the owner of it.
Your question was a surprise because a lot of the thread was about how reasonable a $2500 week charge was for a business that supplied a hands on Project Manager (PM) in Silicon Valley or other High cost of living area.
No professional contractor familiar with Silicon Valley expects the GC in question to do more than stated in the OP for that price. The Per Capita Income of SV is 1.55 times that of the rest of the US. ref In 2004 it was $52000 and climbing at about 3%/year.
It would not surprise me in the least to find that a business that charges $2500/week for a PM to only put $1200/week in the business owners pocket at the end of the year. That would put this high-priced GC smack on the average income for his area.
Assume that his Indirect Expenses (office type stuff) are only 10% and that he bills 80% of a 50 week year. His gross would be $100K with OH of $10K. His Self Employment tax (FICA) on $90K is $13,770. His CA tax is 8% or $6,098, Federal tax is 25% or$17,533. Total taxes = $37,401. Net income = $52,599. ref. Edit: Fica on 90K, CA on 90K-FICA, IRS on 90K-FICA-CA. Results close enuf.
For one, the cost of living is staggeringly high. A $70,000 salary in the San Francisco valley doesn't even ensure that an individual would break even, with costs of living roughly 40 percent higher than in Sacramento.
The point of all that is that $2500 week is very cheap for a GC as PM in Silicon Valley.
I'm sorry it took you three tries to get me to understand that you were serious.
"The mystery of communication is that it occasionally occurs." anon
SamT
Edited 8/2/2006 10:16 pm by SamT
SamT, Thank you very much for your reply. Concepts of the For Profit world are new to me. As to why it took so long for my initial question was ‘cause of all the new terms I was trying to grasp in the Mark-Up thread as well. The real owner of the image…
http://www.jppatches.com/ Thanks again,PhatI just was thinking about what my take-home was last week... in retrospect, it was kinda a dumb question - sorry.Never underestimate your ability to overestimate your abilityEdited to correct spelling – my apologies.
Edited 8/2/2006 11:22 pm by Phat
SamT
<P> </P>
Sam, how did you make that blank post. When I tried to duplicate it, I copied and pasted that html message thinking that my repost would be blank too. It didn't work.
Just curious. You obviously have houdini skills.
blue
Hit space bar once.
PostSamT
That's me - obscure, in a way...;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Me too, sorta...Phat
Never underestimate your ability to overestimate your ability
" is he also paying the subs from the $2500?Phat"LOL great sense of humour you have there!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
but is he also paying the subs from the $2500?
God I hope not, he'll go broke very fast trying to pay the subs out of a mere $2500 a week. An electrician can eat that up in about two days, maybe one if he has a couple helpers!
Doug
Sounds like you just outlined your next move...quit your job, start this remodel and become your own boss. Gives you the opportunity to further sharpen your skills too.
Sounds fine.
I don't recall denigrating your choice of cabinets tho. My scepticism is based on the decision to order before having clearly defined the space. Maybe you have some flex in the layout someplace thereee.
based on all my experience and that of others, I will never put cabs into production or on order before knowing exactly what the dimensions will be. I know a professionall kitchen designer locally who will not order cabs this early either, unless for a builder she has lots of experience with.
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
you said that you need to hire someone full time because of your six month situation tell the clients that you will take lest say eight months and give them an extra 10,000$ for waiting you will still save 50,000 that you would pay the GC.
The client is his wife!;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Remodeling is always more expensive than new. Consider protecting the owners property (which they are probably living in while one works) and then factor in the tear out involved in remodel (not found in new) and the price simply HAS to be higher. Try the partial finish approach. You can go the GC route later if things don't work out (been there, done that). Try
My first inclination was to tell you that the compensation was fine. It is more than my area would support but seems reasonable for most major metropolitan areas. If you have a good feeling about someone with a good reputation, that is all you really need to know.
On reading about how much of the job is going to be subbed out, I have to question the arrangement. We have entered into similar arrangements with customer where we use our hourly rate which covers our overhead and profit and the customer pays the suppliers and subs directly. We supervise the subs and bill that out at our hourly rate. In addition we help the homeowner create a budget and schedule.
The supervision time takes no more than two hours a day if you have subs that know their jobs. The rest of the time I and my crew do all the carpentry on the job, rough and finish, as well as some other tasks which vary from job to job. If we were not doing this work, we could gc another job of the same scope at the same time.
Your arrangement may still be a good one, but I would want to know, if only for my curiousity, what the guy does with his time.
Much more important than anything any of us could say here is what people whom he has worked for say about their experience with him. If the projects ran smoothly and were finished on time and roughly within the allotted budget, he is ahead of most contractors.
On the flip side, his projects do seem to come in on time, the quality looks great, and his clients like him. So he must be doing something right.
Anymore, thats a real accomplishment. Sounds like he's found a niche, just wasn't a good fit for you.
"...never charged nothing for his preaching, and it was worth it, too" - Mark Twain
He may still be the guy for you. It really depends on the alternative.
What did your other two bids come in at? (You DID shop around didn't you?) At least that way you have something to compare against.
What other two bids?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
So, 2500 a week for 26 weeks (6 mos, right) is $65,000 - and you aren't buying materials, that comes out of the 65K...and he has a crew he is paying, and he will be onsite the entire 6 mos...and other contractors bid well over 3 times that much...
hmmmmm.....
What else does this guy do for a living? smacks me a little odd that he can pay a crew, buy materials, and live in So Cal. for 6 mos and make any money at all on that bid...
He a friend of yours?
Try a remedial reading class! The facts have been covered and are 180° from what you just summarized
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
What was that? So nice to come to this forum, try to help, and get flamed...see ya later...
oops, my bad...guess I should have read a little more carefully, but that being said, I believe you have been pounded by a lot of opinions up here with this topic - From what I have gathered, it seems like a fair proposal if he's as good as you say and you have adequate protection in your contract should things go south...
As a cabinet maker, I sure wish you weren't putting Lowe's cabinets in a $1mm house, but that's another story altogether...
Good luck!
I agree with Huck completely.
As a GC, the moment I got a whiff of your attitude that a contractor should make less than you, I'd walk.
As a courtesy, I will give you an idea of why you are wrong about the price:
To be licensed in CA requires a minimum of 4 supervisory experience in the trade.
Our insurance in CA can be as much as $14,000 per year.
At any moment we can chop all of our fingers off.
We are probably dealing with dangerous inhalable particles.
We cannot work forever in this trade, the body probably won't hold out.
Our equipment costs US $thousands.
There is no worker's comp for the GC himself.
On and on.
With regards to sanity check based on prices around the country, that couldn't be more rediculous. When you go to sell this house, what are you going to say to the buyer who says they can buy the same size house for half the price in Utah? Not the same when we are talking about your money; is it?
Skip the remodel, buy a house that suits you better.
With regards to sanity check based on prices around the country, that couldn't be more rediculous. When you go to sell this house, what are you going to say to the buyer who says they can buy the same size house for half the price in Utah? Not the same when we are talking about your money; is it?
BINGO, We have a winner!
100
What did i win?SamT
The reason why I thought his price is too high is because relatives in Utah are able to get a house built (new construction) for $75-$125 per sq ft. Also, his salary of $10K per month exceeds my own, and I have a degree and good paying job in computer science in Silicon Valley. With those wages, maybe I should quit my job and become a builder.
Well first of all, Utah Aint California so forget that comparison.
Now, before I pick on you for your lack of understanding simple business, here is something to think about. Does it sound reasonable toy ou to just let someone bill you X dollars per week until he's done or the agreed upon time is up? What if he isn't done at six months and you stop paying him and he stops showing up?
I have seen that type of arrangement leave more than one homeowner with a half finished project and an empty bank account.
I would not do it.
Now, on to your assertion that he is making more than you and you have a degree and a good job in computer science.
What risk do you assume at your job? Does your boss send you out to land jobs and if you don't get them send you home unpaid until something turns up? Has writing code or designing a new chip ever destryed a coworkers knees? Has a mouse ever driven a 3" nail thru your wrist?
But more importantly, your assertion is flawed. AS a one man band, If I billed $2500 per week here's how it would break down.
My weeks expenses (gas, truck, phone, insurance, tool upkeep, office overhead and on and on and on) would eat up about $450-$500 of that. Health insurance, disability insurance and a Simplified Employee pension would suck up another $500. Uncle sam would get 30% of what was left. So, my $2500 week would end up being about $1050 take home.
The sad fact of what I have written above is that as a senior NCO in the Army, I bring home a larger check than I did most weeks when I was self employed.
Yes, there were stellar weeks when I took home $2500 after expenses. There were also weeks when after all the businesses needs were met I took home not dime one.
My suggestion is you solicite three bids from three different contractors. After you see what they have to say, decide which one you are most comfortable with. Review the contract carefully and get the job done.
I haven't read the whole thread, but... are you gonna hire the guy?
Fewer and fewer young people view a job in the building trades as a desirable career option.
Fewer and fewer older tradesmen view a job in the building trakes as a desirable career option.
blue
gblotter
I have stayed out of this thread mostly because i have nothing to add. lol But, your comment on your prospective GC making more than you as a degreed professional did not set well with me. After putting that out there (and as a DIY newbie to the boards) I classed you as a troll. Helen Wheels was a classic troll here a while ago. But I digress.
To complain about how much the trades make and now to complain about the low level of craftsmanship is talking out of both sides of your mouth.
Frankly, I think that is where some of the anger is coming from. The people here (and in all the trades) bust thier #### every day, outside in all weather, and deal with all kinds of people. And to complain about how much they make (while making YOUR dream) is low class.
Not sure what a troll is, but DIY guys are obviously not welcome here (at least by folks like you). See y'all
I don't think that is a fair statement. I could offer tons of proof but you probably don't want to hear it.
You obviously only want to hear what you want to hear. You're not ready for the truth, yet the truth will be a significant factor in the success of your project.
Good luck. Come back and let us know how it goes.
blue
> Not sure what a troll is, but DIY guys are obviously not welcome here (at least by folks like you). See y'all.
DIY'ers are always welcome here. You, and anyone else who comes into OUR house and spews that we are beneath them, unworthy of our salaries, is NOT welcome here.
Don't bother to come back to tell us how it went. We already know where it's going.
You know, guys, I have learned a great deal from these forums. Many of you are extremely knowledgable, and also very generous with your time and advice. Even when you disagree, the ensuing debate can be educational for largely ignorant people like myself. I am grateful.Most participants are both friendly and courteous. However, there is also a current of discourtesy that occasionally flows through these discussions. This particular thread is a good example. When this negativity gets started, it distracts people from the topic and tends to spoil the discussion.I wonder if Tauntom has moderators who look in on these discussions? if so, perhaps they need to edit out more of the unpleasantness and keep a lid on things. If not, perhaps Taunton should consider hiring someone to fill the need, or getting volunteers to do it.
Yeah, that would be a great way to drive the people who actually contribute away.
joe... they do have moderators... and rules..
but they try to rule with an even hand...
it's all language... and it's an inexact thing....the poster in this instance could have been a little more circumspect..... and some of the replys could have cut him a little slack
but ... it was still interesting and informative...and censorship could have easily screwed the pooch...
hang around.. you'll meet all kinds , with many different opinionsMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Indeed it was an interesting and informative thread. I personally have no complaint at all. Everyone has been friendly and generous -- kind really -- in responding to me.
I am a moderator in another big, global forum on completely unrelated topics with hundreds of participants and thousands of weekly visitors. We have found over time that gentle management is the way to go, and we cut a lot of slack. We tolerate and even encourage debate -- even heated debate. But we don't let people insult or abuse each other. In our experience over almost eight years, most people "get it" pretty quickly, and almost everyone including all of the best participants stay around.
I am a moderator in another big, global forum on completely unrelated topics with hundreds of participants and thousands of weekly visitors.
Welcome to the world of constuction and contracting. No offense meant!
Joe, if you could show me a forum anywhere on the net, that has moderators and also is successful, I'll be interested in seeing it.
Moderators ruin forums. This forum is moderated enough.
blue
http://www.4gea.comhas mods and it is a well run sitebusta :0)
It wouldn't load.
It already failed my first deal breaker test. I gave it five, maybe seven seconds....nothing....
blue
Blue
it's a golf site....read all about the Great Golf Ball Debate
not as scintillating as ventilation debates huh?
http://forums.prospero.com/golfequip/messages/?msg=205776.1
loaded for me just fine..your security set on Paranoid?