I can either get the 4×4 option in an XL or move up to the XLT package on my soon to be new Ford truck, whadda ya thing?
Can’t afford both and I’m leaning towards the XLT package for added comfort etc becauseI hardly un in 4 wheel in the Jeep that I have now, maybe half a dozen times a year. But I still can’t make my mind up…
any opinions?
and no Ford jokes
Replies
IMHO four-wheel-drive is overrated. Sure in very extreme situations it can make the difference but I have seen many, much more common, places where a 4by4 got stuck due to bad luck or an inexperienced driver and the same spot is driven through by a two-wheel-drive using skill and finesse. Your going to a job, or more likely the grocery store, not war.
Sure there are places with tank swallowing military grade mud and rock hopping and mud bogging are best in a four wheel drive model but even fairly remote sites are seldom that bad.
In the long run I think that the improved ride, safer handling on highways - where you are likely to spend more driving time -, fuel economy - the major and recurring cost of any vehicle and something sure to be more an issue with time - , easily makes up for its inability to climb Everest in a snowstorm.
If you do need to go to war they won't let you bring your own toys and they will issue you a Hummer to use.
lol yep that was basically my thinking, the few times I ever use the 4 wheel in my jeep is in the snow, and I'm not entirely convinced I've encounted a time I could not do it with out it, but since I have it, I use it...
the other issue was maintance and up-keep parts are expensive if they break, the fewer parts, the fewer that can break, as I say that though, by getting the XLT I'm getting power windows, doors etc, which can also break.
As for re-sale, I'm not to worried about it, I plan to drive it into the ground
Edited 11/3/2003 12:30:40 AM ET by CAG
I agree that 4 by 4 is only good if necessary, like for us that live 5 miles down a dirt road and can't get out when it sprinkles and that road is toothpaste consistency.
Many winters we only get out when it is frozen in the AM and hope to get back before it melts.
We go thru the pastures and they don't have any bottom. Couldn't do it without 4 by 4, used to and used to get stuck regularly. Don't anymore since 4 by 4.
If you are on pavement and don't have to get in fields when it is wet, the cost is less on running and maintaining the 2 wheel drives.
Wouldn't trade our excellent '90 4 by 4 150 short cab, plain interior Ford. Looks like new, well, almost. It does the job for us, from pulling the gooseneck trailer to plain getting around but it does use some gas that a 2 wheel wouldn't.
Don't know if you already did so but if you go to a site like http://www.edmunds.com you will find for free what prices to pay and even get quotes over the internet, even prices on your trade-in.
Be sure to read the insider article there "Confessions of a salesman" before setting foot on a dealership or buying any vehicle. Very informative and will save you plenty of money and aggravation.
Right now Ford has a $4000.- or so discount on the last of the 2003 models, if you don't finance, or a 0% interes on 45 or 60? months payoff.;-)
i drive a 1 ton chevy van all year round and its only 2wd and empty its hopeless in even a quarter inch of snow, but loaded with my tools as it is almost always, its totally awesome in snow up to the bumper.
i use really heavy duty aggressive tires all around and carry chains, but have never used them
noisy on the highway of course, but its not a family minivan
maintenance and fuel costs on 4wd are much more than decent tires and the heavy load is in there anyway
plus there's a lot to be said for finesse and skill when driving in snow
also 4wd still stops and turns the same as 2wd actually maybe worse
a friend of mine who operates a towtruck says the only difference between 2wd and 4wd is the size of the tow bills, a 4wd gets in deeper before its stuck!!!!!caulking is not a piece of trim
"also 4wd still stops and turns the same as 2wd actually maybe worse"
Maybe it is just my imagination, but I swear our 4x4s are much more stable and less prone to sliding out on turns in 4WD. I've heard others say the same thing. I think with all four wheels pulling the same, turning becomes smoother on slick surfaces. I'm referring specifically to mountain driving which is what I primarily do. Lots of twists/turns/ups and downs. I almost always put my vehicle in 4WD when the roads are snowy/icy.
I wonder, is it me? Do I just feel better in 4WD?
I like 4WD because it allows me to pull off the road into deep snow and let people going faster get around me. I don't think this is an issue in Chicago, but on 2 lane mountain roads, it sure is nice to go your own pace and let others do the same.
CAG,
Would there be much of a cost difference in getting a F250 4x2 with posi-traction? Can one even get that option? Maintanence on the F250 will be more becuase parts are more ( at least thats my experience). I think the type of tires you put on it will make a big difference.
I drive a F250 4x2 pretty well loaded down. The times that I have had problems with traction, I think a posi-traction/limited slip would have done the job.
M2akita
CAG... i forgot to mention another thing you want to check into..Ford is offering ( or was ) a Contractor Package.. if you spend $1200 on racks and boxes, Ford will REBATE $1000
this setup below is a Vanguard SS rack and a brand-X cross body box.
I think my net was about $800 installed for both the rack & the box.Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Nice setup, Mike. Curious about which engine in the new truck and what kind of mileage you're getting.
4.6L V8... 7854 miles to date using 511 gal
so..... 15.3 MPG.... the '91 used to get 12 ... have to see how it does with a slower driver....Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
---"have to see how it does with a slower driver...."---
Hmmmmm. That may be why I get better mileage than others on the same vehicles.
I am that slow, careful driver that annoys you fast quick fancy drivers by staying right on the speed limit and stopping at stop signs.;-)
I do resent the dirty looks I get.:-(
I would love to be able to get a big standard "S" sign to put on the rear of the vehicle so as to be able to go slow without annoying others. It can stand for "slow" because I feel safer or just want to, or "senior", for obvious reasons, or "starter", for first timers behind the wheel. That "S" would warn all to watch out and be patient.
Our '90 150 plain work truck won't hardly pull a 16' gooseneck with three #1000+ horses (never mind four) up our very steep soft hill, even in four wheel drive but will walk off easily with the 12' with three horses. Something about where the axle puts the weight on the pickup on the 12' that helps pull better.
How the weight is distributed is a consideration on how good any pickup will pull. They do have their limits.
Let's remember that CAG had already specified in his first post for the advice to be about "Ford and no jokes about it", because he had a good chance at a deal on them.
That is a fancy rig you have. Very spiffy.:-)
sometimes i drive behind roy... about 5 lengths back... drives him crazy... i just turn on the classical music and drift..
when my other guys get stuck behind roy... it drives them insane... i will check on the mileage thing to see how much better he's doing with that rig than i was...Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
one more question, do you ever think the 4.6L is underpowered? I've been warned by others to bump up the engine, If I get the payload package it's mandatory to get the 5.4L, but if I didn't I could get the 4.6L and save some money up front and on fuel...
edit: Thanks a lot for the info on the rebate on racks and boxes, just checked and it's still offered, thats one hell of a good deal.
Edited 11/6/2003 4:05:37 PM ET by CAG
If it's it's a new style '04 (not the Heritage) , I think the 5.4 is the way to go. The F-150 gained about 500 lbs over the previous version, the stronger frame and body and extra doors have a price. The 4.6 offers little benefit other than initial cost, there's almost no gain in mileage and you'll take a big hit on performance, towing and payload capability.
Edited 11/6/2003 4:10:00 PM ET by jc
cag... i'd defer to jc on the engine size... especially if the '04 weighs that much more..
lemme tell ya about comfort though.. our other car is a '99 buick lesabre.... a nice ride.. but i think the XLT is nicer..
and the bells and whistles ?... ever try to lean over to ROOOLLLLL down the passenger window so you can talk to someone ?
power windows are the only way to go....
anudder ting: i bought the extended warranty on my '91... it paid for itself x3...
i bought the extended warranty on my daughter's alero, too... that also has paid for itself (that one was an after -market)..
i bought the Ford extended warranty on my '03... rolled it into the payments for some peace of mind...Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike, I'm going to get the extended warranty, still need to get specifics on cost of the different options they have, I had it on a ford taurus and never used it, didn't get it on my jeep, and balked at the 1500 the dealer wanted.... Hindsight is sure 20/20, 1500 I would have gotten off cheap lol
15.3 MPG
That's funny, that's what my 167hp SOHC Explorer gets in tow, too. Slower driver might help that, too--exceptign that the slower drivers in my town tend to drive 29 in the 45 zones (and 29 in the 20s, too). Previous ride (2.9L V6 Bronco II), also only got about 15 in town too--it's gotta be them other drivers . . .
On the highway, I get much better milage, 24, typically (28 on a stretch of I-10 in Mississippi one day).
Bought used, too--just too good a deal (1 yr old 99 with 14,200 for $19K driveaway).
If I had to buy new, I've already dreamed that out on the ford site. Burgundy supercrew 150 with the 6.5' bed XLT with, yes, the 4x4 (better suspension parts & drivetrain, and a tad better handling than the HD, and you get all of the parts of the towing package with no upcharge). But, it's also just dreaming. Like as not, in 5 or 6 years I'll see someone else's 250 supercrew that the bride did not like the ride of, and take that away, instead.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
wait... so I spend 1200+ and they give me back 1k... so, say I spent 1200, it would cost me 200?
Going to have to look into that.... the rack I was looking at was about 600-700 and the tool boxes could easily push me over the edge.
yup, net $200.......that was the offer on my '03... and they are still looking for business.. as far as i know, Chevy & GM have similar incentivesMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Snappy red, too. The local RhinoLiner guy now has a spray in liner to match the color.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Man I hate those things. Big scam in my opinion.
Mike
I hate those things. Big scam
Huh? Spray-in liner? Ifyou find adecent applicator, it's a much better deal than a drop in. The trick is to ask everybody you know (or see) with spray in wh did the work. The "dealership" jobs are the least best around here (barely 1/16 on the sides ans 1/8 on the bed--but the color match is perfect). There's two local outfits with really good applicators, and decent prices for what you get. One pretty much does the work to your spec (like blending in behind the wheel well tool boxes). Or, and extra coat on the back of the tailgate where it gets all of the abuse.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Oh they look pretty, but that's it.
Here's why I feel the way I do:
1) They're like joining the military, once you do it, there's no getting out of it.
2) They're faaaaar from bulletproof. Sheetmetal still gets pounded and they do scratch off. And once they do, you have to go back to them to have it repaired and it's a crap-shoot if the color'll be even close.
3) What're they going for these days, $300-$500 or so? Drop-ins cost $159 and they're a whole lot tougher.
Now, drop-ins are:
Cheaper.
Thicker.
Offer much more impact and scratch resistance.
Are easily replaceable(if you want one with more load board slots, or want to change from under-rail to over-rail style for instance).
So other than for looks, why would you want a spray-liner?
Mike
I have heard people complain about rust problems under the drop in liners. I keep thinking I will check on any rust under the drop in liners in both of my pickups, but never get around to it.
My next pickup will definitely be a diesel, probably a Duramax. I currently have a '94 Chevy C2500 with a 6.5L Turbo - plenty of power for me pulling my skid steer or my tractor. But then I don't feel the need to go 80+mph down I-84 pulling a full size yacht or a loaded 4 horse trailer like a lot of big RAM drivers do... I generally get 18-19 mpg if I can keep it at 70 or below; the mileage drops off fairly rapidily above that. The 6.5L diesel reportedly is prone to fuel injector pump problems and overheating under heavy loads, but reportedly the Duramax is fairly bullet proof. Have heard a lot of complaints about the Ford Diesel's but I don't know which models. Haven't heard much about the RAM Diesels, but I see a lot of them on the road. A fairly substantial portion of new truck sales in these parts are now diesels.
Rust was a problem decades ago before galvanized bodies. And even then mostly on empty trucks where the liner moved around alot.
The old 6.5 turbos had mucho pump problems. Constant upgrades from Standyne(inj. pump manufacturer) were a nightmare. By the late 90's they were pretty solid. If your truck is a stick it'll likely start rattling at idle when real hot, if so, it's the dual-mass flywheel.
I like the Duramax although just recently I've started hearing some bad things about longevity. Nothing concrete, just one convinced but reasonable guy talking about a few he's seen. I still like the Duramax/Allison combination.
The Ford p/stroke 7.3s are real good and the new 6.0l p/strokes are excellent, big improvement on an already proven motor. I think the ratio of complaints might have to do more with how man Powerstrokers are out there compared to Duramaxes.
Dodge is still in bed with Cummins. Noisier'n hell, but bulletproof. Their reputation speaks for itself.
Everybody's trying to make them more yuppie friendly....quieter, less stinky, etc.
Mike
Cap,
I'm with Mike on the bedliner preference:
"Now, drop-ins are:
Cheaper.
Thicker.
Offer much more impact and scratch resistance."
But have one thing to add. Before placing one in, lay down one of those HD rubber bedliner mats for additional protection. I did that 5 years ago, and pulled the liner out for a look-see this summer. After tons of cargo and abuse (I really do use my truck as a truck) , the paint on the bed floor still looked like new. $59. well spent.
Jon
HD rubber bedliner mats???
tell me more, I'm going with a drop in, I can't justify the expence of the rhino etc, let alone the fact you can't slide stuff against them easily.
This quickly has become a long thread! I would get the XLT with Limited slip rear. I have found the tires make the biggest differance to going and stopping! I also have the rhino sprayed on bed liner and would not bother with it again. I keep a sheet of 1/4" plywood on top of it! Had a drop in liner (other truck) and that got removed after I kneeled on it. The ridges were just right to inflick pain and my knee went out from under me. Out of all the options I would go for the $60 mat. My pickup has a tall cap on it but not enough to stand up.
Well here are my two pennies.
I own a SD250 4x4 vintage 2002 with 45k. I love the power of the 5.4l gasser. Every once in a while I would like a little more power when I pull my 5 ton trailer loaded to 6 tons, but then I think of the 4k extra cost and just take my time. I have driven many heavy trucks-read cdl required and I like the ride to strength ratio I get with my FORD. I pulled an antique car from NM to eastern PA at high speed the whole way with no grief at all! As for 4x4 costing more for upkeep, I needed new inner axle seals first year(under warranty). no other problems. I plow a lot of snow, and I push it way hard. I do however seem to be having the same problem many are having with the power locks. Also, have a spray in liner.LOVE IT! Stuff stays put. Kick the crap out of it and it just says is that all you got? Just replaced the factory tires(Firestone Steeltex AT) with Toyo open country AT's. Huge impovement!
Buy the SD250 4x4 and XLT, then go make more money to pay for it.
good luck and have fun,
Curly
my bodyman/mechanic/buddy hates the spray in liners ...
says they can promote rust if poorly installed and get minor cracks.
at least that was his opinion about 5 yrs ago when I considered one....
I never did even get a drop in ...
just cut a sheet of ply to fit and screwed down a coupla 2x's ... one on the flat .. one standing up .... custom fit to the tool cases and buckets I was using most at the time. Kept everything from sliding around.
same sheets still in there .... just figured I'd get the damn thing repainted as needed ....
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
There are a few companies making rubber bedmats that kind of serve the same purpose as a bedliner, and some guys put 'em under the bedliner to theoretically keep any bedliner movement from scuffing the paint.
IMHO, if you've got wheel well boxes, toolboxes, etc. holding the bedliner still, it's unnecessary, but couldn't hurt. They can make it a PITA to get an under-rail bedliner latched under the rails, but it's a personal decision either way.
Mike
"HD rubber bedliner mats???
tell me more, I'm going with a drop in, I can't justify the expense of the rhino etc, let alone the fact you can't slide stuff against them easily."
CAG,
They are meant to be used without a bedliner. The one I have is made I think by Rubbermaid. It about 1/8" thick plus another 3/16" for the buttons on back (see pics), so ~5/16" total. I have an under-the-rail bedliner on top of it, and the mat in no way interferes with it.
Again, it's just super cheap insurance against the rigid liner sliding around and wearing the paint off the bed. remember that over time dirt will find its way underneath nad act as sandpaper.
Jon
In some models, you will also find differences in hardware between 2 and 4wd models of the same vehicle. I.e. the 4x4 will have a stronger axle than the 2x, etc (example, Jeep chorkee). You get more durability, not just more hardware.
Hey CAG ...
just thought you'd like to know ...
I test drove a 95 cherokee today.
Was gonna redo the old '87 Commanche ... then realized I'd still not have room for both the wife and kid. Thought I'd start my search early ... planning months in advance ... then I think I found the only older cherokee for sale in the country with the options I want right down the street.
I was looking for simple .. and keeping what I love about the Commanche ... found a mint condition Cherokee with 84K ... showroom in and out .... air .... 5 speed (that was the hard part) and a straight 6.
Got the dealer down to $4750 ... plus $750 for the old truck.
They can;t finance ... to little money and too old ...
So off to the credit union on Wed morning to sign the papers.
I'm paying off one loan and opening another ... if everything works out ... I'll have a new(er) truck this weekend.
Kinda surprised the wife....
She had no clue "we" were even looking!
She'll love it when she see's it.
My mechanic found a few small seals and gaskets that need attending to ...
and it's only got 15" rims/tires ... figure 16's and some new shocks all the way around will get me the extra inch or so that I'd like to see.
I thought the sales guy was bs'ing when he said how clean it is ....
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Artistery in Carpentry
Congrats, wish I could get mine looking that new again.
wonder what I can for my beat up 96, not really in bad shape, but definatly not in good shape...
guess it's all going to matter on how good my buddy the detailer can do on it....
Edited 11/10/2003 9:57:42 PM ET by CAG
maybe you can help me here, being an ex car salesman and all..
Bluebook puts my jeep somewhere between 4-4.5k But I just can't see getting that for it.
Dent in the front bumper, scratched/chiped paint, worn interior, suspension shot, hole in exhaust manifold and cat converter is shot, baby needs some work, all that entered in as close as possible in the calculators...
will someone actually pay that much for this???
I plan to be honest with someone when they ask whats wrong with it as I don't want to bend someone over the barrel but I won't mind taking a decent sum of cash if it's worth it.
do the KBB or Edmunds site pricing toy and be honest about the condition ...
I'd say that rates as "poor" ...
remember ... selling on the street with get ya lotsa more than a dealer trade ...
I could probably get around $2K on the street ... and was planning on going that route ... but will take the dealers offer of $750 to make it all go away quick and painless.
The blue book values are way to focused on mileage as far as I'm concerned too.
Running good and well maintained means lots more to me.
Yours sounds closer to $2K than $4K ...
But whadda I know? If I found a '96 as opposed to a '95 I could be hoping for somewhere around 6% interrest instead of somewhere around 12%!
Gotta run the numbers and see if I'm better off waiting....
Both the bank and the credit union told me that .. about the rates doubling going from '95 to '96.
Now I wonder if it'll go from "96 to '97 after the first of the year?
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Artistery in Carpentry
I got a 96 I was planning on trying to get about 2500 for....
I did the fair and poor values, poor wouldn't give me a value, fair gave me around 4000, I did the itemized list and it told me the value was good...
ummmm
No...
but then I took it buy a used car lot and they said they'd give me 2k for it, so on the street I can get more.
Figure I'll put it up around 3000 and be willing to negotiate heavily.
On a related note, the History Channel's "Modern Marvels" series is featuring 4x4s this week. I think it's on either tonight (Tues.) or Wed.
You wrote:
"As for re-sale, I'm not to worried about it, I plan to drive it into the ground"
Since you are buying a Ford, that will come sooner than you think. I Just put $600 into mine last week and it needs another $500. That puts my repair costs this year at about 4K on a 97. I would seriously reconsider your purchase. IMERC has convinced me not to drive it off the royal gorge, but it sure sounds like fun.
---"I Just put $600 into mine last week and it needs another $500. That puts my repair costs this year at about 4K on a 97."---
Ever check the need for repairs and the prices on the other brands of pickups? Here we have all kinds and year models and there is trouble with any of them that has trouble, regardless of the kind it is. My neighbor has had a terrible time with his last 3/4 ton Dodge and another with his 1/2 ton Chevy.
I don't think there is as much difference in the brands from one to the other as the people in love with theirs or that had bad luck with one like to think.
We had terrible luck with a Chevy pickup long time ago but don't think all are bad because of it.
Paula, you just got a lemon. I've got 145K on my 96 F250 4x4, never had one thing go wrong with it. (furiously knocking on wood) My concrete guy has 135K on his 96 F250 4x4, never even changed the spark plugs. At least I changed my spark plugs at 100K.
If my wife would quit backing it into poles and curbs it would look like new.
jim
That won't take long if you're buying a Ford.
>IMHO four-wheel-drive is overrated. Sure in very extreme situations it can make the difference
Neil lives in Kansas, which I think is all the same elevation across the whole damn state. Don't recall your state 4Lorn. Here in the mountains, I need 4WD at surprising times, like today! The leaves have all fallen (or are falling) and it rained, so they are slick as heck. Stopped on a 20% grade to let a construction vehicle back out of a neighboring drive, and tires just spun when I tried going again. Throw it in 4 and off we go.
The 4x4 seems to get higher resale value here, but could be different where you are.
have u driven a 2x4 truck regularly?
is the bed usually full of stuff?
the weight ratio on empty trucks puts the weight on the front wheels, so with an empty bed, the rear wheels spin easier. (my experience) drove 2x4 from '75 to '98, 4x4 now. rarely use it, but...
are u getting positraction (forget what ford calls it).
get good tires with a good tread design, not hard to spin tires in wet weather.
lots of folks drive 2x4's all winter.
either case get a posi.
put weight in the rear in the winter
remember, you'll be living with her for a long time
picking a truck is like picking a woman, real personal decision.
bobl Volo, non valeo
I think I already stated my opinion/preference about this to you in another thread a while back. 2x4 is all I need here in NW Illinois as my truck always has a minimum of a 1,000 lbs of topper, tools and stuff back there. My jobsites are rarely off-road and I don't pull a big trailer. If the day comes that you're caught with your pants down.....a set of chains on a well-weighted 2x4 will answer the call on icy or really deep-snow and drifted winter roads and IME with more voice than a 4x4 without. I've pulled my share of 4x4's out of drifts and ditches with my chained-up truck.
4x4's definitely have their place, but I've never needed it on my work truck.
Then again, if it's gonna leave you feeling immasculated cause you don't have a 4x4, ya better get it as the expense of all that Viagra could break the bank. <G>
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Edited 11/3/2003 10:29:52 AM ET by GOLDHILLER
It depends. I used to work in a pretty rural area; lot of hills, mud and snow and my 4x4 was often the only way to get in to the job site. In an urban area now and 2wd works fine. Been looking at full size trucks and if your talkin' a new style F-150 I'd go with an XL. Nicely equipped with standard automatic, a/c, tilt wheel, 40/20/40 cloth seats, console, driver's side lumbar support they don't lack much for a work truck. I like the rubber floor, much easier to keep clean and I don't mind cranking the windows. The regular cab has the extra doors and some useable storage behind the seats. imho the XLT isn't worth the extra $ (1500 to 2000 more). One option that is is the heavy duty payload package which gets you 5.4 V-8, 3000lbs of payload in the 2wd version and 2660 in the 4wd version and 9900 lbs of towing capacity. 4x4 is nice but not always necessary- you're the best judge of that. You can recoup some of the extra cost at trade in time.
the payload package was a given in the 150, I haven't actually seen a 04 yet, if you can believe that, but I can get a Ford at actual dealer cost from a close family friend, so unless it's worst vehicle I've ever had the chance the drive, it pretty much has to be a ford.
I'm going to go test drive one in a few minutes, guess I'll find out then.
I also just realized with the payload package and everything else I can get a 250 for about the same $ so I'm going to look at those as well...
I feel like a kid on christmass eve.
Chicago, huh .............. maybe a Bradley Fighting vehicle or an M-1 Abrams might be a better choice and give a you better chance with the traffic. The Ryan Expressway at 7am or 5pm ain't a good place to be, lol. You can still buy the old design 150 (the Heritage Edition) but imho the new 150 is much improved, more capable and the better choice. You're right about the price difference, the F-250 may actually be cheaper. The XL 150 will get you a better ride and a much nicer and more useful interior than the XL 250. I've thrown in this link http://www.wizford.com// .......... might help with prices. Click on "Our Current Flyer" after you get to the site.
It has been claimed that a 4x4 only allows you to get stuck farther from civilization... I have had two 4x4's and live in an area where we get some snow and a couple of periods of freezing rain each winter - making the Columbia Gorge as tricky driving as any area around. That said, I only have had to actually use my 4x4 capability twice in a decade. When I was in high school, I drove a 51 Chevy that was a light in the rear end as any vehicle and managed to go where ever I wanted without chain except for perhaps twice on glare ice. It used to be that 4x4s were allowed to go through bad weather areas without chaining up but these days, when freezing rain hits the highways in the Gorge, everyone has to chain up or you can't get past the highway patrol.
That said, occasionally if you need to go up an icy drive way to get a loaded pickup right next to the work site, a 4x4 could save you some swear time of having to put on chains for a couple of hundred feet...
---"live in an area where we get some snow and a couple of periods of freezing rain each winter - making the Columbia Gorge as tricky driving as any area around"---
I don't think that 4 by 4 drive helps on slick ice. Nothing much does there. In Switzerland we had much snow and ice but didn't need 4 by 4 because roads were cleared promptly and there was no mud under the snow. Where it got slick, you spinned around and 4 by 4 would not have done much for that.
During snow storms we keep chains on the front of our 4 by 4 pickup. Only way to get around to feed and break ice several times a day. If really bad, we move snow with the dozer to get to the pastures and clear a feedground. Here we need 4 by 4.
I don't think that CAG will need it.
As far as the extra expense of maintaining a 4wd truck, I've got a GMC with 140,000 miles that has not cost me a penny extra other than maybe a little gas. It gets better mileage than my smaller 2wd Dakota. I often pull a 16 foot trailer and manuvering it around a yard or job site is helped by slipping into 4wd. I seldom use4wd for more than a few minutes at a time, but its mighty handy around a muddy job site. The ride and handling are somewhat a function of the tires, so if you don't have big mudders, the ride is not much different from a 2wd. They're both basically the same truck with the extra stuff on the front axle. Anyway, my 2 cents. Good luck.
CAG, I think you're in CO., right?
4x4 v. 4x2? 4x4 hands down.
Difference in cost of ownership is negligible. Ride quality in a modern Ford is still crummy for either. Unless you absolutely have to have leather, etc, spend the money on the 4x4. Personallly I wouldn't buy a Ford at all unless it was a SD, but....
Mike
PS: Myth debunking...
Yes on ice, there's little traction available...but that's only given that ALL 4 wheels are on ice. With 4wd, if only 1 finds traction, at least it'll be a drive wheel-and that may be the difference between getting home or eating it.
4wd does not mean "more parts to break"...that's just ignorance. If vehicle complexity was such a problem, we'd all be riding bicycles.
An excellent driver in a 2wd can often go where a 4wd can't. TRUE. But compare apples to apples and be realistic. An excellent driver in a 2wd can NOT go where an excellent driver in a 4wd can. And vice versa for poor drivers. Not everybody can be an excellent driver, and even those that are have their blonde moments. Not knowing the limitations of yourself and your vehicle works for either. Having 4wd is an advantage in every weather condition, just don't get sucked into those dippy ad campaigns that make you think you're now invincible.
Every winter I pull a dozen uneducated drivers outta snow banks.
With my 4wd.
I'm in Kansas now, but moving to Chicago, so there will be snow, but mostly on pavement...
Might be partly myth, but I've had the transaxel go out on my Jeep, if it wasn't there it wouldn't have broke lol...
I'm just having a real hard time justifying the added ~2800 for the 4x4.
I'm with Mike again.
I wouldn't buy a 2wd pick up.
CAG ... you planning on loading this thing to the gills and leaving it there ... then ya might get by ...
that kinda/sorta works for my one ton van ... but then again ... it's a one ton!
Loading up a 1/2 ton so it'll sink thru the snow will cost more in the long run too.
I'd say aside from us having way more twisty hills ... the weather here and in Chicago is about the same ... and several time a winter I have to unload half the van into the pick up .. bitching and moaning the whole time .... just so I can get outta my alley and get to work.
Did I mention I hate working out of a pick up! I don't do this by choice ... but 4x4 will get you there when 2wd won't.
Plus .. Chicago ... I'd bet the same on resale ... U plan on driving it into the ground?
Then wouldn't ya like to get that extra $1K to $1.5K that 4x4 alone will get ya?
NO matter when ya trade it .... 4x4 is worth more ....
It's a pick up ... not a front wheel drive can ... just like an empty van ... it'll suck when slippery ...rain too!
Do U hunt or fish? 4x4 and off roading don;t mean bouncing off rocks and trees at 50 MPH .... creaper gear is a wonderful thing when finding that special picnic with the girlfriend!
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
man, should have known not to come here to work this out nobody ever agrees on anything lol...
just got back from test driving a 150 and a 250.
Still no decision on anything, the 150 XL would be fine, the 250 XL leaves a bit to be desired I can actually get a 250 XLT with everything a 150 XLT has in it for about 150 bucks cheaper, go figure...
The interior of the 250 XLT was pretty nice but pickup and go was obviously more sluggish and a rougher ride, a little louder too. But then, I can't really compare that because of the heavy service package I'd get on the 150 that stiffens the suspension increases load capacity etc...
4x4 4x2 ughh... yeah I see the advantages of the 4x4 but 2700 bucks is steep for something I will use rarely.
About the only thing I do know, is the color Dark Shadow Grey
or maybe black....
I should just go buy used, least then I'd have limited choices to make
BTW, was this salesman really good or really bad? He either sucks, or knew I had no intention of buying from him, I made it out like I was interested in seriously talking to him about a sale, didn't push price at all, just general questions about what financing packages etc they had going and specifics between the two trucks, he knew, or let on less, then I knew going in there..
Top of that I asked 3 times to see the interior of a F250 XLT and he was rather reluctant to go and get the keys, told me to look through the window... what kind of #### is that?
Edited 11/3/2003 6:33:52 PM ET by CAG
He was a tool, but these guys get lookers all day long and maybe he knew it. He still should've kept in mind that effort often turns lookers into sales.
That Dark Shadow Grey is nice, I just shot and hung a visor and a body stripe kit on a '04 SD that was that color. Real nice.
As for the $2700 for 4wd, Chicago winters are fairly notorious...believe me you'll be glad you got it, and the resale value reflects that anyway.
I think you'd probably be happier ride-wise in the F-150, but the Super Dutys are very, very well built trucks.
Mike
I drove in Chicago for 6 years. Never once did I really need a 4x4. Of course, the vast majority of the jobs were remodeling, so I didn't have to slog out to the new developement through the elements.
Jon Blakemore
Personally, I would try to buy a truck with the least amount of bells and whistle. A/C costs for repair and all the things it screws up doesn't outweight the cool air, unless you live in Phoenix. I also like manual windows and doors, just because that is less that can go wrong. These things might drop resale a bit, but if you are driving it to the ground... You can get lemons with any make of truck... I know guys that have Fords, Chevys, Dodges, and especially Toyotas with upwards of 175,000 miles. Good luck.
OK.
CAG,
My understanding is that this will be a work truck? If so, have you compared and priced out the F250HD? I don't know much about Ford's, but if they're anything like Chevy/GMC's HD 3/4 ton on up (the ones with 8 lugs) are a completely different animal than the 1/2 ton and regular 3/4 ton's (the ones with 5 or 6 lugs).
Side by side virtually every drivetrain component on my 3/4 ton HD is double the size of a 1/2 ton.
Going that route will get you a truck that should last twice as long and they don't cost all that much more, at least when I bought mine.
As far as getting a 4 x 4, Chicago is no different than SE Wisconsin, and here ~ 70% to 80% of the pickups are 4 x 4's.
I know I'd never make it up my driveway without it. Also, a lot of area's outside the city limits don't lay down salt or sand (except at intersections), Something to think about if you are not living downtown/working.
Jon
Jon,
The payload package on the F150 brings it almost on par with a 250, engine and trans are the exact same, I'll bore you with more specifics if you want, but I'm not giving up much with a 150 over a 250.
CAG,
What I was getting at was (and I know this is/was the case with GM and am pretty sure the same with Ford) they basically make two chassis. The light duty and the HD. On a GM, all 1/2 ton's and the non C6P 3/4 tons (F150 and standard duty F250's on a Ford I'm speculating) are built with similar drivetrain/chassis components, ie. brakes, differentials etc. There is very little difference between a GM 1/2 ton and 3/4 ton (1500 and 2500 respectively) other than spring and shock rates.
Ford also makes a line of "Super Duty" trucks that starts with and F250. If the difference is anything like GM, The difference is night and day. Brake. differentials, frame thickness, transmission, etc twice as strong.
Again I'm speculating, but I'd bet that an F250 (3/4 ton) Super Duty probably has a drive train that is significantly much more heavy duty that the standard F250.
I know that when I bought my truck it cost about as much a a standard duty due to the fact emission an safety requirements were more lax, and this offset the cost of the HD components.
In the end, it weighed about 1000lbs more than the standard duty (where do you think that weight came from?) At the time, a 1/2 ton could pull ~ 5000lbs. a 3/4 6200lbs. and mine 12,500lbs. FYW. I paid $19,200 for it in '98 ($27K Sticker) for an SLE which is about the equivalent of the Ford XLT.
FWIW, most dealer's try to steer you away from HD trucks cause they don't sell many. and don't want to 'cause they're not that popular (has to do with allotments), and BTW, I had to order mine and it took 10 months to get.
Jon
I've wintered in Montana, Colorado, and Iowa. My opinion: you don't need 4x4. (But do go for the limited slip/posi rear end)
Since everyone is sending you in different directions: Do yourself a favor and go drive a new Nissan Titan. If you are really going to drive it into the ground you'll save big on repairs down the road.
I like to test 'em all: I've had Fords, Chebys, Nissans, Toyotas, Jeeps, Dodges, Internationals, and even a Rambler. Just got two Nissans, three Toyotas, one Jeep, and one Ford now. I'm trying to cut back, but you already called me a redneck for my car stategy... ; )
Doesn't bother me when one's in the shop, though! (PLUS I've got NO car payments!) Yeah, I know, the newest one's a '94. I just plain don't care!Any jackass can kick down a barn, but it takes a carpenter to build one.
the titan doesn't have an option for an 8' bed, so it was ruled out long ago.
and how many of the 7 or so cars are on blocks in the front yard?? ;)
None! They are all licensed and operable! He!!, we ever got 'surance!Any jackass can kick down a barn, but it takes a carpenter to build one.
I'm with Jon here...
worlds difference between a 1/2 and a 3/4....
if U plan on hauling tools daily ...
you'll wear out a 1/2 before it's time.
same deal with vans ... go test drive some 3/4's and 1 tons...
guess why all the 3/4's rear end's whine ... because they were loaded up and driven like 1 tons everyday!
bigger last longer ... cheaper in the long run.
All depends on what you're planning on hauling...
what do ya have in mind?
racks ... cross and side boxes? What kinda work?
A framer could probably make due with a 1/2 . ..... a remodeler would kill one.
It's not the occasional bumper dragging home depot runs that'll get ya ... it's the daily load.
At least ya won't have many hills to worry about.
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
what wud u no ?
the F150 with the beefed up towing package will carry anything you want, CAG..
my '91 (300K miles ) is still in daily service.. we use it to tow our 7x14 tandem ..
my leadman drives it
my '03 is an F150 XLT with all the bells and whistles... nice bells and whistles..
both are 2x4.. never owned a 4x4... both trucks will carry more than a ton...
the amenities in the XLT are good to have ... i spend about 15 hours a week in mine.. on a slow week...
the ride in the 150 is better than the 250, or the 350 ( IMNSHO)..
here's the old '91 XLT Lariat....
and the '03 XLT Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
rack and crossover and side boxes, remodel
the "payload package" on the 150 comes with bigger rear end, heavier duty springs etc. Payload on the 150 is about 3k and the 250 is about 3300
Going to go test drive again....
you'd think this was a life altering decision by the way I'm agonizing over it.
It is when you get the payment book! ;o)
If you're looking at the '04 F-150, the new 3valve 5.4 has more hp and torque (300hp and 365 ft/lbs) vrs the 2 valve 5.4 in the F-250 (260hp and 350 ft/lbs). The transmission in the '04 F-150 is new (4R75E), an upgraded version of the 4R70E used in the previous generation trucks. The F-250 uses the 4R100 auto unless you get the diesel. Payload and towing wise, the F-150 w/payload package and F-250 are pretty close but I suspect if you work it really hard long and often, the F-250 would be the better choice. One thing to note is the 2wd version of the F-250 still uses the Twin I beam suspension. It's an antiquated design (it may be replaced for '05).
CAG,
Just curious, Can you get a manual trans in F150's and F250's? Way better mileage and longevity if you can, plus going that route should knock at least a grand off the price.
Jon
In the new F-150 no manual trans is offered. No six cylinder engine either. Ford is slowly converting the assembly plants to the new body style, currently just two make the new style truck (Norfolk, VA and Kansas City). You can still get a six and manual trans in the '04 Heritage edition which is the older body style still built at the other plants. The manual isn't much of a trans imho. The MO5D is built by Mazda and not a particularly rugged trans. Won't tow more than a few wet rolls of paper towels and the tow ratings reflect that. Not a fan of the 4.2 six either. It had some problems and can't hold a candle to the old 300 inline six. The F-250 and 350 have a ZF six speed manual transmission, a real truck transmission. granny first and overdrive sixth, it's a good choice but you don't see many- everyone wants automatics, a $1000 option.
"The F-250 and 350 have a ZF six speed manual transmission,.... but you don't see many- everyone wants automatics, a $1000 option."
JC,
I think what it comes down to, is that the dealers pretty much just want to sell automatics. The 10 or 15% of buyers who may want them are talked out of it by the sales people. It took me 10 months to get my truck (HD 3/4 ton 454, 5 speed reg. cab, 8' bed). Can't tell you haw many times the sales people kept trying to convince me that I'd be soooo much happier with a 1/2 ton (small block) short box extended cab.
Well my truck knocks down almost 17mpg on the highway (4.10 gears) and can pull double what a half ton can. Plus, with 51K miles, the brake pads still look like new!
Jon
There's still a few dealers around that have real work trucks but they're few and far between.
4.10 gears in the 10 1/4 rear end?
That's what I'd end up with in the 150.
so it sounds like you'll be fully loaded pretty regular ...
don't listen to Smith ... he don't even know the difference between payload and towing a trailer efr crying aught loud!
You keeping the Jeep, right?
Me ... I'd say if a 3/4 ton 4x4 is out of the Q ... get the 3/4 ton with posi ....
then do like I do ... take the Jeep the coupla times a year you wake up to snow and ice and don't feel like using the bad weather as an excuse.
BTW .... manufacturers "payloads" are generally bs ...
which might explain how a 1/2 is so close to a 3/4 ....
a 1/2 loaded up and driven daily that close to the 3/4 limit is gonna get beaten up pretty quickly .... just ask any mechanic that works on used trucks .. they'll tell ya.
Mikey pulls a trailer ... worlds of difference.
U got no trailer .... all that "extra" sh!t is gonna have to come with one way or another .....
wish I was there ... I love car shopping!
remember ... that extended warrenty is "negotiable" too ... price wise.
an $800 warrenty for $500 isn't unheard of.....
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
same deal with the warranty as with the car, I get the best price possible. I'm pretty sure he still makes a little money off the deal, but I don't have to negotiate to get the best price, I took his price to couple of other dealerships and they just laughed at me so I know it's good
Damn you guys are sure making it hard for me to get the 150, test drove them both again today, 250 has the older 5.4L less power, less torque, bigger vehicle sluggish maybe the V10 is an option simply can't afford the diesel.
The jeep is going going gone... It's about to start getting expensive, if I had the money for 2 I'd keep it and fix her back up, just not in the cards right now.
Appreciate all the advice, but still leaning towards the 150....
damn, I hate these decisions.
SIT! CAG...
ONE MARE TIME... The 150 and the 250 are NOT the same. Park them side by side. Now crawl under and look. Part for part.
Next time you test drive one head ove to the big box and get your self 25 bags of crete. Put it in the truck and drive around.
That load will compare with tools, equipment and materials.
Compare the leaf springs. Width. Length and # of leafs. Pay close attention to the spring shakles and barrel dia of the shocks.
Compare curb weight. The 250 is a lot heavier. That weigh had to come from some where's.
That 150 was built to appease the yuppie market. Ford has all the T's crossed and the I's dotted. The 150 is their manna in trucks. It isn't at their expense. It's at your's.
Who ever invented work didn't know how to fish....
cag . whadda you put in your truck?
me .. i've got horses and shingles and stuff loaded to the gills.. and it all goes in either thru the tailgate or over the side.. like the man said.. compare.. it's a lot more work getting stuff into a 250 than a 150.. they sit higher off the ground..
i don't know what anyone wants as far as durability.. as far as i know ...my '73 is still on the road someplace..
i still see my '80 around...
my '85 is still working for some kid..
my '91 is loaded and on my payroll everyday...
point is they were ALL work trucks.. and i rode 'em hard and put 'em away wet
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Keep in mind at 100K a Ford's value relly drops
For you a V10 would be a waste of money. The diesel just too damn expensive.
Seriously look into the used truck market.
As of now.
162 Fords milege 80 - 125K 80% 150's
Why so many in that milege range. When a truck starts to act up people get rid of them.
9 Dodges milege 190 - 340K all 2500's (7 in the high 200K)
This was just a fast Google.
Who ever invented work didn't know how to fish....
Are you a fan of dodges? I might have the ability to pick up a 2001 Dodge Ram or a 2001 Dodge Dekota. Any insight is appreciated.
Thanks,Barney
Yes I am....
I made the mistake of biting on the "sweet deal" Ford offered me over what the Dodge people would do. Regretted it ever since.
The ex has a Doge Dakota. It's been a good vehicle. It's now in the high 200's
From observations out here in the mountains the Dodges have been good to their owners. One guy here dosen't count. He can destroy an anvil with a rubber mallet. Nothing he drives ever lasts more than a year. A Dodge will last him longer than a Ford though.
There's the drive you nuts nickle and dime stuff with the Dodges but over all they last longer, cost less to maintain and go further than the Fords and GM. If you were to see the trailers they pull and the loads that they are made to carry, the plowed snow and not to mention the mountain climbing... It's down right criminal...The Toyotas can't take the abuse. Their engines last but that's about all.
This is work trucks, (farm, ranching and construction) we're talking about here not the concrete cowboys and their don't even get them dirty rides.
Also as a note gas burners are a minority here. They are few and far between.
Who ever invented work didn't know how to fish....
Thank you for your response. I appreciate the information. My dad has only owned Chrysler/Dodge vehicles since I was a kid in the 70's. In fact, no matter how much I try I can't get him to give up his 1988 K-car. He just keeps that thing running, its over 160,000 miles. <bg>
I've never had a good experience with Ford so I was staying away from them. I have owned one GM and it had 145,000 miles when I sold it. That guy put a new engine in after he blew the old one offroading and its still going.
Toyota's are nice, but they are REALLY expensive here in NJ and the thought of putting that much money on the table. It'll probably rott before the engine goes bad.
Thanks,Barney
You also might want to ck. into that extended warranty being refundable after the
warranty expires. I bought a toyota sienna mini-van w/extended warranty for 1200.
and if I didn't use/need it I get it back (1200) I really didn't believe it but the
warranty has expired and I've already spent the money. My brother just bought an
avalanche (gmc) and they had the same deal but I think his cost 1500. You really
can't beat that kinda of warranty. If you need it you got the coverage and ifn you
don't you get the money back
Hey CAG,
If you go for the warranty, make sure it is with the manufacturer and not an aftermarket insurance co. Alot of the aftermarket cos. have been going out of business and your warranty ain't worth the paper it is printed on.Frank
mikey don't pull the trailer... roy pulls the trailer... mikey is the one who goes to the gravel pit for a yard of crusher dust..
or (24) 2x10 / 16' s on the rack with 6 sq. of asphalt in the bed..
do i carry 700 lb. of tools.? no.. thye're in the trailer...
when u commin up to god's country ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I could get a manual in a 250, not the 150.
I just test drove them again tonight, talking to salesman(can I trust him??) anyway, the new 150 with the payload package is almost as good as the 250 in terms of durability/capacity, the new frame is suppose to be a lot stronger as well, on top of that the 5.4L in the 250 is still the older version, less real gas milage, less horsepower, less torque, I don't want the V10, and I can't afford the diesel.
"new 150 with the payload package is almost as good as the 250 in terms of durability/capacity,"
CAG,
Capacity maybe and probably. Durability???????????
Again, I'm not a Ford guy, but at least in the case of GM... 1/2 vs. 3/4 (ton): 10.5" rotors vs. 13", 4" driveshaft vs, 5.5", trans: New Process 5.14 first-.70 fifth OD. vs junk light duty "close ratio" and the list goes on, all for about the same price.
Don't get me wrong, an optioned out new 1/2 ton truck is great, and you will really enjoy the first few years, but I presume someday it will turn into a work truck. That's when you will appreciate the HD stuff.
As an aside, this summer (as I was launching) a guy paid me $50. to pull his boat (and trailer) up a boat launch 'cause he slid it off the side and his 2wd couldn't do it. $50 for 5 minutes work is pretty good cash when you have 4wd and a truck that can do it.
Jon
Edited 11/6/2003 9:34:52 PM ET by WorkshopJon
Hey Jon, they don't make an F250 Light duty anymore. They're all Super Dutys. All very different from the F150s, all Heavy Duty. The F250SD is 3/4tonand the F350 1ton.
Mike
EDIT: I'm with you and the others that a 3/4t is better. Personally I love the Super Duty line(even tho I'm not a Ford fan at all). I got the impression that CAG wasn't that concerned with heavy duty use and was more interested in comfort, that's why I'm leaning towards a 1/2 ton for him. Besides, he specified short bed and it's just silly to get a heavy duty truck wit a wittle bed! :)
Edited 11/6/2003 10:43:14 AM ET by Mike Gabriel
Short bed????????
ummmm no.. lol
if I said that it was a mistake, I can't see buying a truck with a short bed.
I am concerned with the heavy duty but only to a point, it's not like I'm going to be towing a big boat or camper.
The bonus of the 150 is the larger standard cab, there's actually room behind the seat to put stuff in the 04, the interior is also "nicer" or at least I like it more. I've been given conflicting stories, does anyone know if the 5.4L in the 250 is the updated 3 valve, or is it still the old model?
F250
5.4L EFI V8 Engine
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o
4-Speed Auto Transmission with Overdrive
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o
3.73 Axle Ratio
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o
Payload Package
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-
3320-lbs Maximum Payload
-
8800-lbs GVWR
F150
View Image
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3000 lbs Maximum Payload
-
8200 lbs GVWR
-
50-State Emissions System
-
LT245/70x17D BSW All-Season Tires
-
High Capacity 17" 7-Lug Steel Wheels
-
Heavy Duty Shock Absorbers, Frame and 72 Amp Battery
-
Upgraded Springs, Radiator, and Auxiliary Transmission Oil Cooler
-
10.25" Gear Set with 4.10 Axle
-
Optional 4.10 Limited Slip Axle
"I got the impression that CAG wasn't that concerned with heavy duty use and was more interested in comfort,"
Mike,
I get that impression to. My point was that over the long haul, a HD truck is going to outlast the light duty hands down especially if it's hardly used for towing or carrying heavy loads. CAG did say he was planning on keeping it for a long time. The plus is that it shouldn't cost all that much more.
IMO, the cushy, lux. options are nice for the first 3 years. When the truck gets to be 6 or 7, you're going to wish it had the HD stuff AND 4 wheel drive.
Jon
Absolutely agree. Another thing to consider is engine choices too. An F150 w/4.6l-5.4l is fine, but a SD with a 5.4l is a bit underpowered, so he'd really have to go with 6.0l p/stroke(the v-10s are ballsy but blow up), and that adds more $$$.
Mike
XL or move up to the XLT
Ok, comfort always wins out in my book. Sounds dumb? Well, let's look at it. Kansas, or Chi-town, you're looking at half the year will be cold, and half of it hot. After you drive the ride to work, it's going to sit there until you leave. Might as well be comfortable after a long day as not.
That being said, I'd recommend the SD in either the 150 or the 250. If it is going to be the go-to-work truck, get an extended cab. Unless you are hauling helpers around, then get the supercrew (4 door). If the ride is also expected to take the bride around town, it may be better to have the plain two door, and spend extra on toolboxes & the like for the bed (checkout Truckvault for some very cool items).
If you need the 4x4, because the weather is awful, or the job site is; you'll need a short-wheelbase, wide tired rig that would be rather unsuitable for the other 10-11 months of the year. In Chi-town, I'd recommend shopping for a weather/winter beater to solve that problem.
The sales dude was a tool. He went out of his way to just about guarantee that you won't ask for him if you come back to make a sale. On top of that, you are already telling people about his crummy service. Car sales can be implusive--could have been that you might have fallen in love with that very 250 on the lot (he can't know without trying, no matter what you knew going in). That ride is taking up space on the lot ans not generating revenue. If you decide you can't live without it, then it gets replaced with a 2004. Otherwise, it's spent money with no return (if that sounds cynical, it's likely due to the fact that I am related to three FLM dealership owners).
The other approach would be slightly different. Find the best available used ride, maybe even a little beat up already (take that, chi-town--can't dent this ride). Take the "saved" money and put the bride in something posh and nice--Mazda 6cyl Tribute AWD XLT, for instance. (Tribute has 6 tranny/drive/engine combos; Escape, only 2+1: 4cyl front wheel drive, manual; a 4 cyl fd auto, and the 6 cyl AWD auto.) Tribbute has the same charcoal grey, too. I have to admit liking the deep forest green with the tan interior, though.
My previous 2 cars have been a deep forest green, moving on away from that color, and the tan interior will be to light, I have green/tan in my jeep and the tan is more of a brown now...
I've thought about used, don't make me go back there, took a while to decide btw used and new.. lol
If you need the 4x4, because the weather is awful, or the job site is; you'll need a short-wheelbase, wide tired rig
I was surprised to learn that narrower tires are generally recommended for mud and snow. The theory is that the narrower tire digs down to firmer footing while the wider tire just sits on top and spins. Wide tires are more likely to hydroplane in wet weather also. So, wide tires are for drags and show in good weather skinny little wennies are for the bad stuff... (I had always wondered why I had never seen wider tires on military rigs.)
4x4 is only a good deal if you really need it. We get serious winter snow and mud in the spring. When I moved here in the late 70's I had only a 2 wheel drive, got stuck way to many times. Now in extreme conditions I use the 4x4, never been stuck to the point of needing help, part of this comes from knowing the limitations of 4x4 and part due to the extra traction. Where I use it the most is at sloppy snow choked intersections, with a 2 wheel drive I would sit there and spin trying to get out into traffic, it's nice just being able to reach down, pull a lever and go. In my opinion the trade off is not comfort but cost, initial cost of the 4x4 option and fuel economy for the long haul is considerable.
The cost was the reason I was trying to pick between the XL model and the XLT, I could get the XL and 4 wheel or the XLT with no 4 wheel. The 4x4 option ate up a good chunck of the cash I could use to get other options.
cag, I've had both an F250 4x4 and an F250 2x4 ext cabs, and by far the 2x4 was a better ride and also very good in the snow. I'd throw three 60lb sand bags in the back and with the high clearance never ever got stuck on even the heaviest snow days. Good luck with your decision. Murf
Wow ...
CAG's new truck hits 100+ ....
now we can get honest ...
buy either a Chevy or GMC .... GMC prefered...
and buy one or two yrs old .....
That way you'll get everything ya want!
Had another thought/question ...
the first Q was comfort or 4x4, right?
Just how much more comfy is the non 4x4?
Bet a brandy-new 4x4 is plenty comfy ... especially compared to what yer used to!
Jeff
Buck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
Not so much comfort from a ride standpoint, guess I phrased it wrong, I'm talking more options I really don't need...........but want
Difference between a XL and a XLT, as of yet I haven't actually seen the inside of an XL because no dealer had one on the lot.
The XLT I can get power mirrors, doors, windows etc, CD player(Yeah I know I could add one) Heated mirrors, tach, overhead storage thingy, better seats with lumbar, driver side keyless entry(I've been know to lock the keys in the car) and cruise.
can't get all that in the XL model.
one more thing, the buy one that is 1-2 y/o
they're a MF to find that "young" with an 8' bed and no extended cab, now if I wanted leather,extended cab, shortbed, I could find a hundred.
I really want a new one, yeah I know it goes down in value quick, but the up side is the extra 2-3 years I can get out of it, the warranty, and of course, the new car smell.
What's this "added comfort" crap. Real men don't need no "added comfort" - maybe a little Sourthern Comfort, but that's all. I just bought myself a real truck - a 1948 Chevrolet single axle dump truck. The springs don't give at all and I don't have any idea if even has any shocks. Good ventilation through the floor boards. A good old crash box that keeps you entertained with double clutching. And a double butt (two speed rear axle) that I'll get working one of these days...