As some of you may know, I recently (this past year) threw in the entrepeneurial towel and went to work for a boss.
Always looking to move up, so I went on an interview today for an advertised position of carpenter/cabinet/countertop installer.
Figure what the hey, got nothing to loose right? Big co. benefits, stock ownership. let’s go have a look.
I knew I am over- qualified for the position they offered.. We chat it up and the guy doing the interview says they need managers/supervisors/foreman type of guys, I think you’d be a good fit here.
Talk money a bit, I’m in their range. It’s a salaried position you see, and our guys typically put in 50 to 60 hour weeks.
I played along until we were done, says he’d like to talk to me more.
I’m a bit confused. Shouldn’t we be able to make a decent living working 40 or so hours a week?? 50 to 60 sound like a sure thing for burnout and bad health; perhaps an early retirement right into a box!
I’ve done it, but always with a start and stop time frame, a nessecity to get a project completed. I’d do it if it were something personal and the stakes were high.
But 50 weeks or so a year?? What about family, church, education……what about me??
I’ve got my flame suit on and zipped up tight. Got my tin foil helmet on too if that’ll help.
I’d like to hear what some of you guys think.
Eric
Replies
Then what he didn't mention is that when the hourly guys fail to show up and the deadline is tomorrow, the salaried guys work extra to pull itr off - for free! yah, He thinks you'd bne a good fit therre, so is everyione who walks in the door...
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Ahh , Imerg told me how many hours you work. <G>
Tim
we usually work 50-60 hours a week. I got 52 right now with one more day. But then the salary people work 40. Hourly start at 5:30 am and work till dark. salary start at 8 am. Its not like we need them around all the time. It really might be the salary on a 40. its not like you babysitter them.. 2+3=7
It would be a quality of life issue for me. After a 60 hour week I'm shot and don't do much except type on the computer, eat cookies and watch CSI on the tube. There's more to life than that and during 40 hour weeks it really feels nice to be able to do the other fun things in life other than work.
On fun or interesting jobs the first week just flys by and I can almost work 80 hours and not feel overwhelmed. You probably wont be doing fun or interesting things from what guys have told me about manufactured home manufacturing. If you're in a supervisory position, it won't be working with skilled carpenters as on a normal building project. It's teaching and babysiting with low paid/low skilled workers.
Having said that, I'd do it for enough money, so what do I know. :-)
Cheers,
Don
Eric,
I have a few thoughts. When I started my previous business, I worked like an animal. I spent more than a few nights sleeping on the plant floor so I could keep a job running overnight. I found out that beyond a certain point, those kinds of hours rapidly become counterproductive. Now that I'm in this business I'm faced with the reality that I'm 48 and frankly while I can do it for short stretches my ability to grind out those hours just aint what it used to be, so maybe that's part of your reluctance.
As to your particular situation, I've met you...I've seen your work and I know what you're capable of. Maybe these guys are looking for someone willing to work themselves raw for the company, that doesn't mean it's right for you, or that you're unreasonable for not wanting to do it. But I think that 50 hrs IS becoming the de facto work week many places. One of my brothers is at a major magazine and he works at least 50 hr/wk. Another brother is a big shot at a major manufacturer, ditto for him. I think the bottom line is that you bring a lot to the table and if this isn't the right fit for you...pass on it... something else will come along that is. As I said, I do know you (at least a bit) and I have no doubt of it.
PaulB
Seems like I could start a new thread perhaps.
How do you balance work and life?
I've always had an issue with this; I'd rather be poor and enjoy my life to the best I can (on what little money I may have) than work like a dog for all the big bucks for .............uh...........what was the question?
To all:
To those of you (and those of you making refferences to people who do) who claim to work 50 and 60 hour weeks; what else do you do? Do you really work that many hours? And do you have any time to do anything enjoyable for any significant amount of time. What about caring for yourself physically and spiritually. Do you have time to do this?[email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
It's an interesting thread, and question. I'll toss my experience in. I'm 36, married with two young kids: 7 and 5. I work in an office, not in the trades, though my Dad is in the trades and I feel a certain "kinship" with (and certainly respect for) people that work with their hands.
I work a consistent 60 hour workweek and I don't find it stifling at all. I should point out that I live five minutes from the office, so my commute time is minimal. I love what I do - absolutely love it. And I have flexibility. If I need to see my daughter's school play at 10 a.m. on a Wednesday morning, I'm there. Additionally I used to travel 2-3 nights/week before our kids came along, also used to drive 45,000 miles/year in that job. Working a 12 hours/day, having dinner w/my kids and sleeping in my own bed almost seems too good to be true to tell you the truth! :-)
But everyone has a different drive. I grew up fairly poor. I watched my Mother work extremely hard, often times at two and three jobs at a time (still remember when she would clean office buildings at night and on weekends, this after working as a secretary M-F). That impacted me in a huge way. There were many times our heat or electricity was cut off because she couldn't pay the bills at our apartment. I swore up and down I'd never be "poor" in my life. That I'd be able to provide for my family (and my Mother) in a comfortable way. I've accomplished that today. We live a nice life, not extragavant by any means, but we don't need to worry (for a while anyway) if the paychecks stopped tomorrow. My wife is able to stay home w/our kids which is certainly a trade-off for my 60 hours/week. But given my professional drive, that I just can't seem to shake, it works out well for us. I'm not going to be able to coach all my kid's teams (though I am coaching my son's basketball team one night/week) but I'm there for most stuff, have dinner w/them every night, play w/them most nights and tuck them into bed and kiss them good night. I also think that long term our kids will benefit from the financial foundation we're building for them (assuming they don't screw it up :-).
Having grown up in Wisconsin, and having many farmers as relatives back there, I've always compared my work life to theirs. They were the hardest working folks I knew of (dairy farmers). It's why I keep a print of an old barn in my office, to remind me not to feel sorry for myself when I'm working hard.
- Rob
You have a very good perspective.
"All men's miseries derive from not being able to sit in a quiet room alone." Pascal
Good question.For me, to some degree, my life is my work as much as I work to live. I get tremendous satisfaction out of stepping back to say, "I did that today" or from hearing a couple tell me how much they love their house when I move out and they move in, or from solving a poroblem or design issue. Then after I come home and spend a couple hours with family at dinner and chat, I touch base here at BT. Much of it is relaxing in doing things I am familiar with and people I like, while helping a couple folks out. There is a spiritual side to all this. Then there are the 'discussions' where I get to take a mental workout and stimulate my brain and test my thinking.
Some folks like board games or cards for some of those things.I'm also involved in organizations and committees that get things done, or plan for the future of my little community, adding to oer preserving the quality of life here.I don't sleep as much as I did when I was younger. Some of that is chemnical from meds, but mostly, I think it is that the older you get, the less sleep your body requires. That's good for me. I always saw sleep as a waste of time. Too much to do in this world...now that I think about it - there was a time I slept a lot - my first marriage was pretty awful. As soon as a fight broke out, I would hit the sack. Found out later that I had developed a reaction to stress. Sleep was my stress responce. It's a head thing. So now I suppose you could say that I don't sleep so much 'cause I am so serene....no more stress...;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
If I sleep less as I get older I won't sleep at all.
I've been averaging 2-3hrs a day for the last 6 months or so. My brain won't stop, and sometimes I get so distracted by the TV/computer I can't sleep.
---------------------
Swimming through the ashes of another life, no real reason to accept the way things have changed. Wrapped in guilt, sealed up tight.
To those of you (and those of you making refferences to people who do) who claim to work 50 and 60 hour weeks; what else do you do? Do you really work that many hours? And do you have any time to do anything enjoyable for any significant amount of time. What about caring for yourself physically and spiritually. Do you have time to do this?
Those are fair questions, so I'll answer them as honestly as I can. Yes I really work 50 or 60 hours a week. 50 is the normal and doesn't really effect my quality of living. 60 starts to take it's toll in obvious ways.
What else do I do when pulling those kind of hours? Not much. That's the truth. This time of year, after putting in 10 hours of physical and mental labor in the cold, I'm totally shot when I get home. I hang out here for a couple hours with the TV/new on in the background. Then I eat some dinner and move to the recliner. I'm often out cold in the recliner by 9 or 9:30
How do I care for myself physically and spiritually? Well there's Sundays for the spiritual stuff as well as quiet moments alone in the truck on the way to and from work. Physically? Well, I used to go to the gym at night when I worked for someone else. Since I've owned my own business, I haven't been to gym more than a dozen times. I just don't have the time or energy left. I'm not sure if it's the business or just getting older that's at fault. Thankfully, my job keeps me in decent shape... at least for now anyway.
But I think that one thing that we are all forgetting about in this thread is that it all depends on where you're at in your life. I can only speak for myself, but Allison and I are relative newlyweds. We just bought/built the home we want to spend our lives in. We want to have a baby in the next year. We are at a "growth" stage of our lives. My wife works 4 nights a week as well as some days at her job. That means that during the week we are often two ships passing in the night. I'm long asleep when she gets home and when I'm leaving for work, it's her 'middle of the night'.
In this 'growth' stage of our life, we are both trying to build our future. That can mean a bit of sacrafice now. But to have a more leisurely life in the future, we need to work on that mortgage, we need to build a nest egg, we need to accumulate some wealth, and I need to build a successful busines. Sure there's more to life than money, but it sure makes things a whole lot easier when you're not living hand to mouth. Our plan is for Allison not to have to work once we have a baby. That is unless of course she wants to, then it's up to her. But going down to one income is going to take some planning.
Some of you might think I spend a lot of money if you watch the "Tools" thread. You might be right. But here's the catch. I own one good suit. Maybe two or three "outfits" suitable for social events beyond jeans and a Polo shirt. I don't spend money on golf, liquor, gambling, strip joints, video games, electronics, big vacations, jewelry, season tickets, ATVs, motorcycles, sports cars etc. I buy things that will make me money. Period. For me it's not a sacrafice. Right now, my business is my hobby. I love to spend time finding ways to make my business better as it will hopefully contribute to a more leisurely future. And I love spending money on things that make my job more efficient and easier on my aching back.
Through it all, Allison and I maintain a very healthy relationship. Sunday's are 'our' day. Neither of us work on Sunday and we spend the day together. Sometimes it's just hanging around the house, other times we see family/friends, sometimes we'll just go to the zoo or something. We really enjoy each other and the time we do get to spend together is cherished by both of us. On the three nights a week that we are both home, we make dinner together and then sit down and eat.... with the TV off. I'll then try to make it through a movie or something, but usually pass out before it's through.
You and others have said things like "I'd rather be poor but enjoy my life than "live large" and be miserable. I have to ask you, what if you can have both? I'm very very happy with where we are at in our lives and so is Allison. We feel like we have a bright future and literally love our lives. Even with the 50 or 60 hours weeks I pull. That's no BS, either. I'm sure a time will come where the 50+ weeks will become a chore but hopefully by then we'll be in a position to slow down a bit. The mortgage payment will stay the same while income will have increased. The vehicles will be payed for. The business will be well tooled and money spent on the business will be recuperated. Cripes, having the truck and the forklift alone paid off would free up $2500 a month.
I'm just trying to say that I really think it depends on where you are at and where it is you want to get to.
snow day today?---------------------
Swimming through the ashes of another life, no real reason to accept the way things have changed. Wrapped in guilt, sealed up tight.
Yep, snow day. At the end of the day yesterday we moved all the lumber into the garage of the frame I'm on and tarped it. Put ply over the 1st floor windows and swamped out the open 2nd floor. As ready as we can be.
Paid the guys and told 'em, "see ya Monday". They're going to log a few hours shoveling tomorrow. As it stood they had 46 hours in at the end of the day yesterday so none of them had a problem with sleeping in today.
I'm running some much needed errands and wasting a little time here on BT. :)
I'm waiting for a crackhead(literally) electrician to pull the rest of the wires on that bar project. He brought all of his tools to the job in a plastic grocery bag. He had a hammer, side cutters, spade bits, and a $30 harbor freight drill. It's sad to see how many guys are working off their tab on this project.
Wish I would have known this before I signed the contract.
I'll go check on him at lunchtime. ---------------------
Swimming through the ashes of another life, no real reason to accept the way things have changed. Wrapped in guilt, sealed up tight.
Real nice, huh? Better them than you.... or me for that matter. I take it you're not leaving many tools around on that job, huh?
No way. That's the sh!tty part I have to load/unload every day. It's all on street parking, so close parking is hit or miss. Frustating to say the least. ---------------------
Swimming through the ashes of another life, no real reason to accept the way things have changed. Wrapped in guilt, sealed up tight.
Well I braved the snow to go check on said crackhead. Of course, he wasn't/hadn't been there. ---------------------
Swimming through the ashes of another life, no real reason to accept the way things have changed. Wrapped in guilt, sealed up tight.
Nice set up he's got there. That's too funny.
Hey, the bar is looking sweet though. Nice job. Were there plans/drawings or is this something you worked out on your own with the owner? It's still snowing like a MF here. We've got about 6" or so, so far. Gonna go play with the snowblower in a bit. I miss the plow for my own driveway, but I sure don't miss plowing all day or beating the crap out of my truck. How'd you get a job like that? Referal? Friend of a friend?
I didn't see the drill? Someone grab that or does he take that home in the "Construction Chevette" at night?
The drill was MIA today. He must have hawked it for his fix. There was a chuck key on the floor, so maybe he trade up to a corded drill.
I got the job through a friend of a friend who is in the restaurant/bar equipment business. He sells and maintenances the equipment. If there is any remodeling work that needs he'll GC for the owners. He's been pretty cool to work for. Not stingy with the $.
This is the second of 2 bars for the same guy. There is a lot of 'value engineering' on this current project. Hence the paneling, and site built top.
The GC/equipment guy did the layout, and we both kind of made up the bar design. The bar owner is using his guys to put down a new floor, paint, and all of the mechanicals. It's been interesting to say the least. ---------------------
Swimming through the ashes of another life, no real reason to accept the way things have changed. Wrapped in guilt, sealed up tight.
You shot a picture of a plastic bag.
Am I missing something here ?
Tim
Read the post to me a couple above the one with the picture.
That's the electrician's "tool box" on one of his projects.
From:
dustinf <!----><!---->
Dec-9 10:15 am
To:
dieselpig <!----><!---->
(46 of 72)
66857.46 in reply to 66857.44
I'm waiting for a crackhead(literally) electrician to pull the rest of the wires on that bar project. He brought all of his tools to the job in a plastic grocery bag. He had a hammer, side cutters, spade bits, and a $30 harbor freight drill. It's sad to see how many guys are working off their tab on this project.
Wish I would have known this before I signed the contract.
I'll go check on him at lunchtime.
------------------------------------------
Swimming through the ashes of another life, no real reason to accept the way things have changed. Wrapped in guilt, sealed up tight.
what bar? and where?
I can always use another bar ... when's the due date ...
I'd hate to show early and have to work.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
It's on 7th ave in New Kensingtion. It used to be called the Stadium bar, but I'm not sure what they are going to call it when it reopens. I don't know if you are familiar with New Ken, but it's between the Sheetz and the high-school.
I built the top yesterday, but one color of the laminate is back ordered. The bar is going to open sometime in January. Just a short trip up 28 for you...---------------------
Swimming through the ashes of another life, no real reason to accept the way things have changed. Wrapped in guilt, sealed up tight.
"He brought all of his tools to the job in a plastic grocery bag."
LOL!!! Sad but I know that guy. Wears a blue work shirt, dirty of course and dark blue work pants. And.......dirty white tennis shoes. In my area he drives an old Snap On truck with an a/c on top with the cover flapping around. Anyway I have his number if your guy doesn't pan out. DanT
Very nicely put, I couldn't agree more with your take on things...Buic
Right, There are two things that make me non-productiveOne is thirty below zero
Th other is anything past sixty hours physical labour
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I've give my Lie Nelson's to be 25 again--working long hours all day and chasing girls till past midnight, all on 6 hours sleep. :-)
You are so right about the cold weather. This is the first real cold snap we've had and today we were cutting out a few cabinets in a cold garage dressed like it's 20 below laughing at how cold 10 degrees feels when you aren't used to it.
Luckily it was too cold for gluing anything up so we talked the painters into letting us back inside if we promised not to use a saw or sander. :-)
Cheers,
Don
No way I'd want to work 50 hrs/week anymore, Eric. A few years ago I successfully weaned myself from even scheduling work for Saturdays. Can't believe it took me so long, either. Amazing how much fun I stumble on to when there's nothing planned for the day.
Here's the thing my wife says - very few people get near the end of their life and say "I sure wish I had worked more". I think she's right.
I think a lot of us work out of habit. In fact, didn't I just read something about Americans working more hours on average than most other industrialized countries?
I think a lot of us work out of habit. In fact, didn't I just read something about Americans working more hours on average than most other industrialized countries?
Thats true Jim. The Europeans take their "holidays" very seriously. They'd never dream of working throught their vacation and taking the dough.
Here in the auto capitol of the world, its not uncommom to know people that work seven days a week, 12 hours a day. I've known guys that have worked scedules like this for 2 and 3 years straight! They actually think that they are slackers when they "slow" down to 10 hour days, six days a week.
blue
I still work 60+ hours a week even though I work for me. The difference is I can work it when I need or want to but if I have something I need or want to do I can usually do so. And I don't have to ask anyone. Independence or controling my time is what it is all about for me.
My son just finished his senior season of college football. I never missed a game. I made every awards banquet and anything else I wanted to go to. In his eighth grade year he played baseball and I opened a new Marriot hotel. I saw 2 games. That for me was the big turning point on my attitude for what I wanted to do with my career.
I like to work. I want to work. It is a big part of my life and I enjoy it and the challenges involved. And I have a lot of different things going on business wise. But frankly I don't need someone telling me that I need to show up "because you need to be here" when there is little to do. And that is what I had when working for big business. A lot of face time. But it is a personal choice. DanT
That is interesting. I sleep more as I have gotten older. In my 20's I would often sleep 2-3 hours a night tops. Some times go a few days on short 30-60 minute naps. Now I sleep 5-6 hours. I always wake up at 5AM no matter what time I go to bed. Weird. DanT
<---------- 28
;-)---------------------
Swimming through the ashes of another life, no real reason to accept the way things have changed. Wrapped in guilt, sealed up tight.
Paul, you forgot #3...
the internet, specifically this place...
what is it now??
20 million posts??
;)
Mr. T.
"I YAM WHAT I YAM AND THATS ALL THAT I YAM"
-U.S. Sweet Potato Council
Yeah, well, I have always put in six nines or thereabouts on jobs, plus some officework, but that ios not what this deal is here. It is not about the hours. What I put in is for myself and my own satisfaction.For an emnployer to tell me I am on salary and earning the same wheether he wants 45 hours or 60 hours that weeek is a sham. A lot of places use the title, 'manager' to give a person prestige instead of paying them money .
Ever researched the word, "honour"?
We 'pay' honour to those who sacrifice for us.
originally the word meant extra payThat said, Ther could be advantages to this, depending on the company. He can ask the opther employees at the joint how it is...
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
"Big co. benefits, stock ownership."
Such is the joys of working for a big company with many benefits, perks and security. I work as a maintenance engineer or supervisor at a couple of large business hotels in the 90's. Great money, perks out the wazoo, they liked my work, I liked them. The problem? They controled your time, and told you so.
The standard was to work 50 hour weeks. If it took 80 you had better be there. Takes 30? Tough sh$t be here anyway. I actually was at a meeting once where they booked a convention into a slow week. The general manager said "we will need everyone on board for this one folks". One of the managers said "ummm, don't forget that is my cruise week, I booked that special cruise 6 months ago and the will charge me 10% of I cancel." The gm said no problem we will pay you the 10%. Next issue.
I left because I wanted to see my son play HS football. Miss the money but it is nice to be home when you aren't doing anything and no one calls at 2AM saying the fire alarm is going off you need to get in here. DanT
Ericpaulson,
I am with you I would expect to get it done in 40 hours. I could understand were in an unscheduled emergency; The sun fails to rise in the morning, the rotation of the earth changes significantly etc. were it may require a little more time but if your employer starts off requiring 60-80 it appears to me there may be a labor resource management issue there.
Tom
Working for nothing is not getting any cheaper.
I don't think 50 hours is really out of the ordinary for a work week any more. For sure in the trades, but even banks are keeping longer hours these days. From what I can tell 50 hours is pretty normal for construction related jobs in the residential market. Around here it is anyway. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, healthy or unhealthy.... just the way it is. Heck, my brother is a big shot business type and he pulls 55 hours a week.
60? I think that's pushing it. Like you said, a couple times a year I might need to ask the guys to give me a little more out of their tanks, but the times are few and far between. It's usually not a problem though, cuz my guys are all young and want the hours. Anyway.... 60 is more like what the boss is pulling. That's about what I average anyway. Not 60 onsite, but 60 total.
But I guess that's part of the deal when you take a salaried job in the trades. Guaranteed money comes at a price for sure. Especially one with nice bennies which we all know isn't exactly the 'norm' for residential construction related occupations. Big companies are looking at fixed costs vs variable costs. You are a fixed cost.... expect to get the snot used out of you.
That's what you get when you go into "management" - used and abused.
A lot of companies use the term "supervisor/manager/ foreman" etc to get around paying overtime.
Just wait til you get your first check and it's less than the hourly guy who is working for you and gets OT.
"All men's miseries derive from not being able to sit in a quiet room alone." Pascal
Thanks everyone,
I was truly expecting to get flamed by some of the hardcore long day guys out there..........might be in the forecast yet!
I think Paul has got me (or them perhaps) pegged. I'm a giver and I'm sure their looking for fresh meat.
Dan T is on my team, there's much more to life than work. Don't miss out on it. Chicken again???
Tom's on the money suggesting that they have a resource managment problem if they need their staff to work such long hours.
Brian tells me that good money comes at a price. For sure! I show up and do my damndest to do a great job for whoever it is that is paying me. My body is beginning to tell me the price I have paid.
Like I said, I don't mind putting in a few long weeks every now and again, but as a norm, I don't think so. I've done it for 6 mos at a time when I was involved in building. Takes a toll, but the rewards can be good if you play your cards right.
Work smarter, not harder right?
By the way (and this may make you all cringe) the job I went to interview for was with a company that builds MODULAR HOMES!! Hey, like I said, I'm exploring options, what have I got to lose?
BTW, my Dad regularly put in 60 sometimes plus hours as long as I can remember. Worked on the house, took us to Sunday School on Sunday mornings, did BoyScouts and a few other things as well. He was not in good health his entire life, he was born with health issues. I remember him like he was Superman. Never took a vacation until the summer before he died and spent it working on the house.I would have rather known him as an adult though.
Maybe why I am cautious about all those hours. Plus I love to spend time doing things with my wife.
Eric[email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
Eric, I've almost never had a job that was less than 50 hours a week. My last year at Woodworking, I kept it to 40, but didn't see a great increase in the quality of my life. The truth is, I love to work. If you have a job you love, then hours are no big deal. It's almost recreation. If you don't love your job, or at least like it, then you're in the wrong place. And despite all of the preceding, I burned out building during the 90s, after about three years of 60 to 80 hour weeks.
It's all about what you value. No one else's opinion really matters. If it's leisure time, then 40 hours might be too many. James Michenor wrote in The Fires of Spring, "Find out how much work you need to do to live and be happy, then don't do any more." I think that's the best advice I ever read on the topic.Andy
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Scott nearing had a philosophy of living that seems apropos here. He was one of those dang socialists, but he did it decently, and believed it truly.he spent a third of his waking hours in physical work, to keep his body - and a third of his waking hours in reading and writing to feed his mind - and the last third in socialising and meditating, for balance
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Scott Nearing had a philosophy of living that seems apropos here. He was one of those dang socialists, but he did it decently, and believed it truly.he spent a third of his waking hours in physical work, to keep his body - and a third of his waking hours in reading and writing to feed his mind - and the last third in socialising and meditating, for balance
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
How do you make two posts just alike with out knowing it ?
Tim
That was funny wasn't it?As I was waiting
and waiting
and waiting
for it to upload, I noticed that I had an edit to make, so I placed the cursor and hit the backspace key to erase it. I think that happened just as it finally posted here and the backspace key actually took me back a web page to the origianl compaose window again, where I made the edit and hit post. It's happened once or twice before this.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Thats a great quote by Michenor Andy.
The best years of my carpentry life were my first seven. We worked a 7 hour day, five day week. That's 35 hours if you count the way I do. We took a 15 minute coffee break that was paid and a 1/2 lunch unpaid. Our hours were 8 to 3:30 every day. Our weekends were free- they were our time.
30 some years later, I find my self working slightly different hours 8:30 till 5:00. My breaks are much longer. In the end, I think I'm still only giving 6 or 61/2 hours of production!
Back in my early years, we used to sprint for those seven hours. When the union changed the hours to an eight hour workday, I still tried to sprint for eight and found out I couldn't. To this day, I still believe that I did in seven what I do in eight.
I love my life, but I also love my leisure. I'm thankful that I have it and I make no apologies to anyone for taking it. I've goofed off an awful lot with my kids and family in my lifetime and I'm happy that I had the time to do it. My only regret is that I didn't find even more time together with them but I know I've had more than anyone else I know.
Now I find myself doing the same thing with my grandchildren. It's no surprise that I'm skipping the entire day of work tomorrow and "babysitting"! I'm not sure I'll know how to change that diaper, but we'll all have fun figuring it out!
Life is too short to commit to much time to work, even if we love it. 50 hours mightnot be too much if the commute is short, but I'd probably just laugh at any employer that was warning me that I might have to commit to a regular schedule of 60 or 65 hours! That's 6 days a week of 10 hours. Add some time for lunch and commute and you might as well just shoot me.
The worst period of my life followed that first seven years. That's when I got started in my first business. I did a lot of remodeling back then because there wasn't any new construction. Wearing all the hats and being young andstupid burned me out too. I think I lasted about 3 years doing the 50-60-70-80-90 whatever it takes to get it done routine. It's not healthy unless you don't have any family or friends. Again, just shoot me.
My frugal came when my kids were in high school. I worked a whopping 5 hours per day: 7 am till noon. Then I hit the soccer fields from 2 till 7 coaching. I think the coaching gigs paid 2500 to 4000 per season. When you figure up all the hours I think I was getting $2 per hour. Money isn't everything.
Eric, I don't think you'd fit in with that company. Your questions regarding balancing life with work indicate to me that your not compatible. I know I wouldn't be.
blue
"I'm not sure I'll know how to change that diaper, but we'll all have fun figuring it out! "
Whatever you do, no matter how frustrated you get, don't use the framing nailer to hold the diaper in place.....lol.
Bob
"The truth is, I love to work. If you have a job you love, then hours are no big deal. It's almost recreation."That's true. But, sadly, your friends/family relations begin to suffer.We live in a society that works too much. We had the workers revolution to finally get a standard 40 hour work week. In many parts of the world, that slowly decreased even more. Here, though, we're pushing our way back up. I was OK with it in my 20s. But I'm now in my 30s, have kids, and really value LIFE more than work these days.The big issue as people hit their 30s/40s is that there is a gigantic divide between family folks and single folks (or family folks that hate their families) which I see cause rifts in a lot of work environments.
New American way- doing more for less.
That's why we have one of the "most efficient" workforces in the world... one person doing the work of two or three (not because you want to) and no vacation (always too busy to use that time, and if the boss doesn't need you for two weeks- does he need you?).
Except CEO's, they do less for more.
I own my own business and because of that I work the fifty to seventy hours a week and have been trying to change that ever since it became so common. It used to be the guy who worked Saturday was able to get ahead or maybe catch up on a lost day do to weather, now it seems like we all work on saturday so Sunday becomes the day to catch up then what we ,work seven a week? Somebody really needs to think about this before they make the decision. no matter what you make there will always be a way to spend it anf the time you miss with your family can never be bought at any price.
Eric,
I think that is very typical of most management jobs out there. Managers get paid to perform a job and that entails whatever is needed to achieve their objectives.
With the discussion about a what is a fair wage fresh on our minds I think this thread is very appropriate. My personal opinion is that the person who thinks they can support their family on 40 hours a week either has to be frugal or lucky.
The "work week" is not very realistic anymore. Health care technology has been steadly improving which drives costs up. People are living longer so they have to save more for retirement. Modern conveniences are very convenient but they also add costs to our lives.
I know a lot of people who make $75-150k, most of them not in construction. The fact of the matter is, to make that kind of money you typically need to take on a good bit of responsibility. When the crunch times hits you must be there. That is why the levels of compensation are so much more.
Jon Blakemore
RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Yes. a good carpenter should only have to work 40 a week. But that will depend on your location, as in some parts the prevailing wage is under $10 an hour. It will also depend on your expenses. Check the fair wage forum for an in-depth analysis. But to answer your question, it is really up to the individual doing the work. Some guys dont work overtime no matter what. Maybe a guy dreads the minute he has to walk in the door and have to deal with his wife. Maybe she never shuts up and starts fights out of thin air because she has nothing better to do when you should be the one in a bad mood because you just got done working ten hours in the cold. I guess it is whatever the situation requires.
Read this story about OT. Makes me want to go out & buy a Broom!
http://www.northcountynews.com/view.asp?s=11-23-05/news3.htm
I guess you could call us Managment. I can't recall the last time I have worked under 45 hrs in a week for the company. We also have the personal business that we run that keeps us busy 40hrs a month on average.
I don't mine the hrs if the Money covers my time.
Wait a minute . Hold it .
Most all of us put in what ever is needed , dont let no one shoot that bull.
Whether its office time , phone , scheduleing , making sure the water dont freeze and the lumber is covered up, etc. Just bidding is an awful amount of over time , come on. You are self employed you might be home with the family but you are in the damn office . Weekends and holidays and weekends aint crap if you have to produce a job thats behind.
Normally you have to have somthing else going on too like retirement . Get a bunch of rentals and hold down a full time job for several years. Ya thats a lot of time with the family. Or trade houoses every two years escaping taxes and paying that dream house off in cash.
Next;
This guy has made the first offer which is more like poker . He aint done . Thats his starting hand hes playin with you .
So you go back and ask for about 15 thousand a year more or tell him to trim the hours. What ever.
There was a man that held THE keys to a new operation to DWs plant . They had to have him but he didnt know it . They would have paid just about any amount within high reason. Im serious , he could have demanded the moon and got it . She offered 15 an hr to start and see if they liked each other. He took it , but she also rented him an apertment too because he couldnt afford the move and she moved him. But that was after he agreed to 15. She still had plenty of rope she could have let out. Wasnt necesary. Noone is in the habit of giving away money. So deal a little but dont turn it down until you feel where his knot in his rope is tied. No one gets the top deal on the first interview. You tell him how important you are whether you believe it or not .
Family health care is a big deal and so is being vested in a retirement . If hes offering health care for the whole family , ya better do a mental check.
As someone said to work 40 hrs period is also living frugal.
Tim
As someone said to work 40 hrs period is also living frugal. "
Better to live "large", and pi$$ your life away? at the expense of friends, family, hobbies........and health?
WSJ
Interesting topic...I have to chime in .
I was actually hired away from my stairshop job in 1998. It was a salaried job that I could not turn down.
It was for "Huttig" , a very large nation wide outfit.
They were trying to buy my shop and everything. I told them not to even throw a price at me...it wasnt for sale.
They wanted me real bad.....so this was the time to set the rules. I told them I must keep a few stairs going in my shop on the side......to keep the overhead paid.....they agreed.
I told them that I would be on fire to get to the job always on time....but that I was also going to leave everyday at 4 p.m. just like the place was wired to blow up at 4:01 p.m. They agreed. No weekends ever. They agreed.
I stuck to this and I did have some brow beating everytime I left out the door at 4:00 sharp. I did not care because I gave my all while I was there....and this division was doing very well.
I am like I have said...a little independent...and plan on keeping it that way. I am just as independent working for myself as I basically keep the same rules.
Stan
Ericpaulson
I do not think jon was too far off in his post regarding work hours. If he would have added "smart" then he would have said it all.
Jon wrote:
With the discussion about a what is a fair wage fresh on our minds I think this thread is very appropriate. My personal opinion is that the person who thinks they can support their family on 40 hours a week either has to be frugal, lucky or "smart"
Tom,
Working for nothing is not getting any cheaper.
Eric - I've thought about this a bunch for a long time. I started working practicing law in 1984. There were the big firms that wanted lots of billable hours and paid big money, and there were other jobs that paid less where you had a life. I got a job where I had a life 40 hours a week. That left me another 20 to do building and whatever. Left there and went to a better firm, still same deal - no minimum billing hours. Eventually opened my own office - near home so the commute was easy and for a long time, my dad would stop by lunch time for a beer and a sandwich. 9-5 unless it was extraordinary, like I had a trial going. Then I would start at 5 or 6am and go til 10 or 11pm.
Did I make as much money as everyone else? Nope. Did I live frugally? Yup - that was kind of ingrained into me. And, now at 47 I've essentially retired from law. Why? So I can have fun doing what I enjoy in construction - on my schedule - probably not even 40 hours.
You need to decide what your life is worth. Nobody else can do it for you. Nobody else can force you to do something if you don't really agree with it. Like the saying goes - Damn few people on their deathbed think back and say they should have worked a few more Saturdays.
Good luck to you.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
Good post.
It appears like you found the secret so may of us look for: the balance and time managment.
You mentioned being frugal, sure that may be a part of it. I see something else however, your inelegant approach to what constitutes the balance of life and work.
TomWorking for nothing is not getting any cheaper.
do I think it's "right" ... no.
do I think it's common ... yes.
it's a managent position ... say the crew works 8 to 4.
managers gotta be there an hour early to plan ... and an hour later to revise and review.
there's your 10 x 5 easy.
I see lotsa similarities between construction and sales ... and an old sales manager once told me ... a good salesman will always make more than a good manager.
to do that in construction you have to sub ... but still the same theory.
I see FT management as simply running around putting out fires and learning who to lie to and when. That's the way 90% of the project managers I've worked around deal with their jobs ... shouldn't be that way ... but sooner or later ... they're thrown into that fire.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Eric,
I won't be able to phrase what I want to say----so I will steal from others
1) Reading either Tage Frid or Krenov a couple weeks ago---he says" humility is not the same as humiliation"
2) A local singer/song writer here, Anne Dechant sings " life is mostly the way you see things
3) old story about a Medieval bishop with a Cathedral under construction
one day he goes out to see how things are progressing---he comes upon a wretch toiling down in a hole. bishop asks what the worker is doing ---the serf grumbles about how hard the work is, the ground is frozen, full of rocks, he is hungry etc.
A little further along the bishop encounters a nother worker who responds " good morning your Eminence, --yes the work is difficult---but there seems to be a lot of it--so at least this winter I will be able to feed my family
further still, the bishop meets a 3rd worker, the bishop calls down into the hole " what are you doing down there?---- the man pops his head up and Beams" I am helping to build a Cathedral!!!!!!!"
4) any number of surveys have shown that the hours worked, or the money recieved are not as big a factor in worker satisfaction as the individual controll a worker has over his work day.--- many high level exec.s and entreprenuers work insane hours to great satisfaction---yet a 40 hour work week on an assembly line can be extremely stressfull.
the last regular job I worked was about 18 years ago--- I don't hink I ever worked less than 47 1/2 hours a week---usually more. We usually worked from 7-till 4:30or 5:00--- and often worked some on Saturday Mornings. although I had many gripes about that job---the hours worked were never really a problem
now-a-days I limit my work to about 1000 hours per year total---that includes production and overhead( estimating, banking, paperwork, taxes etc.)--- as I slowly transition out of roofing and into more carpentry I may bump that to about 1200 hours( carpentry pays much less than roofing---but it also has much less stress.
you do not NEED to work 50-60 hours a week---in fact I think I consistently prove you don't NEED to work 40 ( if I was single--- I could do quite nicely on under 500 hours a year)------- what you do need to do is determine what your financial obligations are going to be---this is within your controll----and then accept the responsibility for doing what it takes to produce that money.
Money generally comes from responsibility.
BTW. blue mentioned something about 6 hours a day optimum production?
In my own case that is Absolutely true. ( I would never achieve my 1000 a year lifestyle without considerable attention payed to optimum productivity----working alone I will generally start at 8:00 or a little earlier---and be headed for home by 2:00. If supervising a crew---- I will stay on the job as long as required------ but I am doing MUCH less of the physical work so it's not as physically demanding.
If you see your work as a series of measurable goals to be accomplished---instead of a number of hours to be endured----- its easy to remain focused and " on task"-------- It's also staggering to bring that mind set to a crew enviorment and see the HUGE amount of time pizzed away on socialization " what did you do last night, what are your plans this weekend, does that have a Hemi?"
to wrap it all up Eric,
you can't have it all--- you HAVE to prioritize---and you have to be content with those resulting trades-offs.
Very best wishes, Stephen
Not to disrupt the spiritual side of the thread but there are also new laws that (ostensibly) protect against being exploited by an emplyoer claiming you are "management" and hence not entitled to overtime...rather pro worker IIRC.
(I think this is the appropriate sectio but didn't read it thoroughly http://www.dol.gov/esa/regs/compliance/whd/fairpay/fs17b_executive.htm)
PaulB
To me, a 40 hour work week is just a good start. It's been a heck of a long time since I had a 40 hour job and no 2nd or 3rd job going. During busy seasons, I limit my time at my REGULAR job to 50 hours. They'd let me work 80, but I would burn out quickly. I do a lot of farming and side work evenings and weekends. That takes up a lot of extra time, but I really enjoy it. My regular job is sitting at a desk - All brain, no physical exertion. My side jobs and farming are mostly physical and very little brainpower. So one is kinda like a break from the other. To keep my sanity, I also make time for little things. Like taking one of my girls out for ice cream, taking a walk at the farm, or riding on a tractor and visiting with Dad while he's doing something. I also cut back a lot during the winter, and spend evenings building something in my basement shop. For the most part, I like my life the way it is. I get to do a lot of unusual and interesting stuff. I have great friends, family, and 2 great Sons. So I figure things will be like this as long as I'm able to keep up with things. But I may have to cut back once I reach Piffin's age.(-:
Borrow money from pessimists - they don't expect it back.
Been there, done that, but in a different field. My boss typically assigned everyone 1/3 more work than they could reasonably do in a 40 hour week. Most people put in 50-60 hours to keep up, and at one point many were working 80 hours to finish a big project. The toll on family life hit home when one guy (a programmer) received a package at work from his wife - it was a surplus army cot!
The sad part is the company we worked for never rewarded this loyaly and extra effort. I eventually saw the light and resigned. They still needed my services enough to hire me as a consultant, but I was getting 3X my former pay and billing by the hour.
My advice is to avoid signing on to a salaried job where they tell you up front they expect 50-60 hours a week. You can do it for a month or two, but after that it WILL take a toll on you and your family.
I was excited when I was a youngster hearing that a business owner need only work 1/2 days. As I started and experienced business ownership, I realized they meant 12 hours / 1/2 of a 24 hour day.
I do not mind, I love what I do and make good money.
50-60 hours a week for someone else, if I had other priorities and did not want to do it, I would refuse the job. If I would consider the job at 50 - 60 hours, I'd make sure I was compensated for 50 - 60 hours and not 40. I would also factor what I could earn applying myself 50 - 60 hours a week doing something else or working for myself.
Eric
When I was younger I worked at jobs that OT was a requirement, would put in 50-60 and even 70 or 80 hours sometimes. I liked the money and I had plenty of energy to do it. I think it set the tone for many years to come.
After I had kids things changed, I never missed a single wrestling meet, baseball game, football game, school play, teacher conference, or any other thing involving my kids. I did this while working for myself, still put in all the hours that needed to be, just did them at some unusual times!
I'm now trying to figure out how I can work a 30 hour work week, by that I mean work that is for someone else. I do plenty around my house for myself that keeps me busy so its not like I want the extra time to sit and watch TV. I have a 5 year old that loves to go out in the shop and build something, I want to do that with him rather then build cabinets for someone else. I plan on taking my son up to Montana for 2 or 3 weeks this summer, I cant do that if I have to commit 40 hours a week to someone else. I need money just like the next guy but I didn't work all those hours for all those years just so I could do more of it.
I took a job when I first got to Texas working for a remodeler, paid me well. After about 6 months He put me on salary, from that point on I think I averaged 60 - 65 hours a week, I quit. I was getting compensated well but I have no desire to give that much of my time to someone else.
I think you have to have your priorities and go with that. Some on here like Piffin really enjoys the time he's doing what he does, doesnt mind the hours he puts in, Hazlett tries to keep his hours down around 1200 for the year. Different strokes and all that jazz.
What do you want???
Doug
I think a lot depends on the answers to a number of things:
1. They're calling you "management" to avoid paying OT. Is this truly a "management" position, or are you just a foreman that they're trying to avoid paying OT to?
I ask because it's rare that anyone who's truly in "management" works a 40-hour week. It's difficult to supervise others, steer a department or team, and report up the ladder in 40 hours.
2. Are they compensating you enough that if you took 40 hours of your old hourly rate, plus 10-15 hours at 1 1/2 times your old rate, you're making more than you would at the hourly position?
I'm the director of estimating for a large commercial contractor, with four estimators working under my direct supervision. Since we opened our doors in April, we've churned out almost $2 billion of estimates and hard bids (we'll break $2 billion by the end of the year). I typically work 55 hours a week, with more on occasion if we have a bid due the next day, or a meeting or presentation to prepare for. Most of my guys put in 40-45 hours, with an occasional late night (maybe one or two a month. If I take one of my senior estimators' salaries, divide it by 40 to get an hourly rate, and then use that rate at 40 hours straight time plus 15 at 1 1/2, I'm still making more money that I would as a senior estimator who would get paid for OT (mine don't). So, in essence, I'm better off than if I was in the old position getting OT (which I wouldn't anyway).
3. What hours are you being asked to work, and does that leave you ample time for the rest of your life?
I'm in the office by 6am every morning, and I leave by 5:30. This works great for me, since my girls are 2 and 4, so they're asleep until 9 anyway. With these hours, I'm home in time for dinner with the family, I give the girls their baths, and we can hang out or play until they go to bed at 9. I leave at 4:30 every Tuesday so I can be home to take my daughter to dance, and if there's something else I need to leave early for, I have that ability. I have my weekends free (I occasionally take a little work home with me, but I work on it at 6 am and stop when the kids get up), so we spend the weekends doing whatever- stuff around the house, visiting family/friends, going to the park/zoo/mall or whatever. So really, what sounds like a "long week" isn't much different than what "normal" 9-5 workers do every day- I get the same amount of time with my family.
If, on the other hand, I had to do 6 9's a week (basically the same, at 54 hours/week), that would be a different situation, since I'd loose most of the day on Saturday. Or, if I had to come in at 8 and stay until 7:30, I'd lose the time I get with the kids at night.
4. Do you feel you'd enjoy the position enough that you wouldn't mind the hours, or would you be exhausted (mentally and/or physically) after a 50-60 hour week?
I work with a great bunch of guys- we break each others' chops all day, have lunch together every day (when I'm in the office), and generally make the best of being at work. We work hard to get out the volume of work that we do, and at times it gets tense (usually right before a big bid), but we quickly get over that and go back to making work as fun as possible. If I didn't have such a great environment (such as with so many previous positions) I might not feel the same at the end of the day.
You've got to weigh the answers to those questions to see if the position makes sense to you. I don't think it's as simple as "how many hours do I have to work".
Bob
I typically work 55 hours a week
That' because you have to gas up that hemi.
Do you count time spent here, and JLC as work? ;-)---------------------
Swimming through the ashes of another life, no real reason to accept the way things have changed. Wrapped in guilt, sealed up tight.
"That' because you have to gas up that hemi."
Actually, my car allowance more than pays for the lease, insurance, gas and maintenance, so that's not it....lol.
"Do you count time spent here, and JLC as work? ;-)"
The time spent here and at JLC isn't work- it's sheer fun.....lol.
Bob
Not much I can add to this thread but:
50+ hours working for someone else is too much, unless you love the job, think your boss is awesome, get WELL compensated, and have flexible hours where you can do stuff with family or make appointments during business hours. I had the flexible hours but not much else before I quit "the man" and started my own business.
I find myself working anywhere from 30 to 70 hours a week, all kinds of silly hours. I try to do billing and financial stuff Sunday mornings when the family is sleeping in. I will often take advantage of a nice day to run errands or get supplies for my house project, and work from 6-10 pm in the office. If you are self-employed it's a lot easier to put in a long work week and not feel like you're being screwed. The only downside to the self-employment bit is that I haven't taken more than two days off in a row (and that includes 'normal' weekends) in five years. I know people in my field who manage to take long vacations - when I figure out how, I'll try it myself.
I'm also not rollin' in dough, either; but enough that my wife can stay home with the kids and we can live within our means. I also don't have the expensive hobbies and habits that many seem to have: golf, fishing, hunting, drinking, smoking, cars, etc. My hobbies stay simple - kitchen full of gadgets, woodworking shop well-equipped, and a substantial library. I hope to retire the instant the last kid graduates from college, that will make me 56 years old and young enough to do something fun with the rest of my life.
"I know people in my field who manage to take long vacations - when I figure out how, I'll try it myself."
I used to have this problem. Now I schedule time off right into my schedule, just as if it were a job for a customer. I'm much more inclined to shuffle my work schedule around than my free time. Work revolves around life.
Jim, this is an honest question. One not meant to be sarcastic in anyway. How do you avoid being at a crucial state in a project when it's time to disappear? I mean, say your schedule was such that your next job is a second floor additon. Would you take a week or two off before your vacation rather than start a project like that and leave it open?
For me, with framing, nobody is going to let me split for a week or two in the middle of a frame. They'll find another framer before they'll bring their house to a screeching halt for what is really "no good reason" in their eyes. Also, most of my frames take a minimum of four weeks. So that means I could really get caught with my pants down and either have to bail on a frame at the last minute or tell the guys to have 2 or 3 unscheduled weeks off.
Maybe I just haven't been around long enough to command that kind of loyalty from my customers?
I probably can answer that better than Jim, since I've lived a lifetime framing.
Your at the stage of your career where you can't take a week or a month off. You've decided that the crew needs you no matter what. You haven't learned to delegate, trust, then be happy fixing the screwups.
It took me 15 years to reach that stage. Before that my vacations came between houses. I think the first time I took time off with a job going, it cost me big time but the floodgates were opened.
I did a few year stint with a partner. The two of us framed houses together. We'd occasionally hire one laborer. Sometimes one of us would take a vacation. My partner liked to take a two month vacation in winter. I've framed a couple houses alone: the job must go on-lol (somehow, on both those frames, I found a laborer to start the day we swung in the trusses)!
After those incidences (twenty some years), I got serious about hiring competent help. I had to learn to delegate, trust and be happy fixing the screwups. When I got back, I found that I didn't have many screwups! Did they do everything exactly like I would? Of course not but I found out I could live with it and my life dramatically improved. I stopped micro managing.
Occasionally I still am tempted to micro manage, but I'm wise enough to know that it will make me a slave to my job.
If you've got an employee that has the buddings of leadership, he'll be able to handle the jobsite if you leave for a week.
One last thing: Jobox's are probably the key to freeing you. You've got to stop being the glorified rolling tool box and leave the tools onsite where the guys can get to them when your not there.
Diesel, this isn't an easy thing to do. YOu might have to go to a 12 step program...
blue
Blue, the Job box thing is key!!!
So many "working" contractors feel the need to drive around with a big rig and keep all the tools with them...
Makes them feel important and in control.
I know this is not the case w/ Brian
but having tools riding around in your truck doesn't get anything done.
and it is not like the bossman is gonna take time and use the tools to do some small job during the day...
Good luck Deisel!!!
Mr. T.
"I YAM WHAT I YAM AND THATS ALL THAT I YAM"
-U.S. Sweet Potato Council
As usual, your delivery is a little rough around the edges, but the advice is sound and I appreciate it.
One thing though..... don't you guys read those threads where Contractorguy leaves his tools on site and wakes up to a horror show the next morning? Then a month later Contractorguy starts another thread about how his Insurance Company is covering barely half of the costs of the actual tools that got robbed by Crackhead a month ago.
I'm all set with that. It happens all the time around here. Two months ago my GC buddy had his current project broken into and they stole ALL the high end appliances, generators, compressors, and misc tools. These weren't crackheads either. They pulled up in cube van on a Sunday morning and proceeded to take their time loading anything of value (installed or not) into their van and drove off. They didn't forget to smash a few Marvin Integritys on the way out either, just for good measure.
Dragging that trailer around in traffic or in the snow is a royal PIA. Let me repeat.... A ROYAL PIA. So is going back to the site to pick it up on the days that I'm not onsite but the guys are working. But then again, the only tools I've had to replace so far are the ones that wore out or busted.
I don't drag that trailer around as some kind of goofy rolling status symbol. I do it because it keeps my investments safe and out of the weather. And NOBODY takes care of your sh1t like it was their sh1t. That's a fact of life.
I get your point though. But my background plays a part in my decisions too. The way I see it.... I sold the job, it's my name on the job, and I was the guy that was hired. The customer deserves to see me on the project. I also worked for a guy before I started my own business. I watched him lose his business because GC's didn't want to see him "happy fixing the screwups", they wanted to see it done right the first time. I'm grooming my guys daily to get them to the point where they don't 'need' me. But the truth is that right now they do. Not everyday, but certainly there's crucial points where their skill level just isn't there yet.
I'm a firm believer in that you don't really have a business until it can sucessfully run without you, and until then you just have a job. And while that is the goal.... we're not there yet. And I see very few small 'businesses' in the trades who truly achieve that. What I do see is a lot of guys prematurely thinking they have achieved this place and then slowly watching their business spiral away from them from a lack of management.
dieselpig,
you mentioned something that Sonny Lycos used to talk about here all the time
that is---
1)it's not a business unless you can step away from it---untill then it's just a job.
2) you also mentioned that you have rarely seen that achieved.
those are both good points
but PERSONALLY--- I don't think I have Ever REALLY seen it achieved in the level of business most of us operate in.
Some folks occasionally THINK they reach it--- but they are really heavily dependent on one KEY man---who if HE leaves places them right back at the beginning.
I can think of only 3 companies I know of personally who came close
1) A former employer was HEAVILY---almost entirely dependent on a KEY man---in fact if the KEY man had left the business would have failed because the owner was at an age that he could no longer do the work the Key man was responsible for ( in fact HE scheduled around the KEY mans' vacations--not the other way around.
2) a 3rd generation family business-----any one of the " owners" could theoretically go on vacation at almost any time because there was always a son, a father , a brother, a brother-in-law to step in temporarily and fill the vacationing shoes
3) the 3rd company is really just a much larger variation of example 2.
however----in contrast to all of this Virtually every small businessman of our level who has achieved significant or reasonable net worth---has done it by useing profits generated by working in the trade to invest OUTSIDE of the business operation.
Real Estate or a Decent Stock portfolio.
Taking into account that it is statistically unlikely for a small construction co. to to aactually REALLY become anything other than a " job" as you and Sonny would define it-------------- Perhaps useing our trade skills to build assets ( Real Estate, Stocks etc. ) outside the " business" is the better long term strategy?
Just a different perspective,
personally--- 20 years ago I would have gone to work for a guy like you in a heartbeat.
Best wishes, Stephen
Thanks for the compliment Stephen. And if I could afford to go back to being an hourly employee somewhere, I'd find a guy like you to do it for.
Your experience confirms my suspicions. I'm going to share something that I haven't shared here in the past. It's a bit of a source of guilt for me and a bit of an embarrassment too. But it has served as a huge lesson learned for me and maybe it will help someone else as well.
I was running a crew for my old boss for about three years when things started to slide. Things were going along great for awhile. I was making good money, he was making good money, and everyone was happy. Then he started having problems at home. He started seeing another woman outside of his marriage. He never admitted it to me, but we were close, and I knew. We were close enough that he was one of my groomsmen in my wedding.
Anyway.... he pretty much stopped working.... or at least he stopped bringing in money anyway. He would work at this chicks house all day with one or two of the guys on his crew. He'd then send the rest over to me to keep busy. I had more hands than I knew what to do with and while production may have increased somewhat... there were more untrained guys standing around than should have been. Just eating up the money. For awhile the checks I brought in kept things covered.
Eventually, it caught up to all of us. One day they came and picked up the forklift at my site. I called my boss and he told me it had to go in for service. I never saw the forklift again. Then I found out that he had let go of all the guys on his crew and I began to realize that I was the only gun bringing money in. He really wasn't even working any more. I liked the guy and I was getting paid, so what did I care? It was a good job and from my end things never really changed.
But then I didn't get paid. I let it slide. I'd then get a huge check every month or so that was more or less what was owed to me. I didn't really like it, but I just kept plugging. This went on for a good 6 months.
One day I was really aggravated with him. He was underbidding jobs by barely looking at the drawings and using ballpark sqft numbers. I'd show up at a job he had never set foot on and he'd be telling me how long it "should" take over the phone. Besides, I just didn't like being lied to by a "friend". He owed me about 12K at this point between carpentry and snowplowing. I called him on a Friday and told him that he had until Monday to pay me or I would finish my current project and be done with him. He paid up. But I spent that weekend thinking about my upcoming marriage and if I thought this arrangement was fair to my new bride and my upcoming obligations. I knew it wasn't.
So I gave a month's notice a few weeks later and started lining up my own work. He and the business struggled on for another year, but eventually he lost it all. Both trucks got repoed. The machine was long gone anyway. And his house came very close to being forclosed on. He now works for another framer... big outfit too. And he's another guy on the crew.
I feel somewhat responsible for not sticking it out with this guy. But I feel more responsible to myself and my wife for having done it. It was really hard to watch this guy's prosperity slide away from him though. After I left he continuted to staff framing jobs with underqualified guys and make token "appearances" on site to clean up the messes they made. The GC's got sick of it and nobody would give him work anymore.
I don't ever want to get that comfortable. I won't put my future into someone else's hands.
dieselpig<i don"t think you have shared anything in your post you should feel remotely guilty overdon"t lose another seconds sleep over it>stephen
If there is any guilt it might be that
you were the donkey that carried
his load.
Friend or not, he did YOU wrong.
There is no way in the world you should feel responsible for that guy going down the tubes. You hung in there making the guy money when most would have left 6 months earlier. I know it is difficult to stop feeling guilty but you certainly should. You stayed longer than you should have and then ultimately you did what you would have done sooner or later anyway. Man, you truly are loaded with character. DanT
Thanks Dan... but I'm not "loaded with character". I'm Irish Catholic. Born guilty.
The guilt is all his in that story. just ask his wife.The lesson is one to remember though when the time comes that your own marriage starts to get bumpy. Turn it around quick instead of thinking one secoind about another skirt.I know some of what you mean tho about putting certain things in somebody el;ses hands.
Back when i had the store, I had a bookeeper/accountant doing my paper stuff. He hinted when I started to get in t ahole but I =was too young and optimistic to see what the numbers were telling him. I still think that if I had been crunchiong the numbers personally, I would have seen the trouble and maybe done something about it before the hole got so big that after closing the store it took me three years and a lucky bid to climb back out.
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Like I said Diesel, you might have to attend a 12 step program!
Ironically, this months edition of Remodeler Magazine talks about this very subject in several articles. It's not an easy idea to embrace but it is the answer to the question that you asked.
Okay, lets start that 12 step program. You gotta stand up and admit, you are a control freak and if you don't change, you'll never, NEVER have time to take your kids on a week long vacation to Disney World. Wake up now while your young. I took my first two week long vacation with my kids when they were in high school. I cheated them and myself out of a lot more life experiences because I had the same kind of "excuses" as you have now.
You think your tools will all get stolen. That a reason, not an excuse to never take a week off.
You think that your guys can't function perfectly without you.
You think that your business will self destruct because your bosses did.
Your name is on it, so you won't delegate.
All of these ideas can be worked around once you make the decision. It's up to you.
Lets talk about how you are a slave to your tools, instead of them being a tool for you to prosper from.
Lets think about how you are limiting your employees growth because you won't entrust any important decisions to them.
Let's think about how you demean your workers by not including them when you put "your stamp" on the project.
Lets discuss your lack of faith in you and your crews reputation. Do you really think all your contacts will drop you if you decide to only work 50 weeks a year?
All your ideas are slightly irrational and when you decide to seek a solution, you'll have your vacation time. It's a very basic decision and no one will fault you for it.
I don't know your exact situation, but maybe your guys aren't capable of running a job for a week without you. But, if that's the case, you should be looking for a key employee if you intend to have employees. Don't stop looking till you've found your protege. Then, let him lead. Let him make decisions.
Heres some things that I've done to get myself out of the rattrap called self employment. I started by delegating little things. Ben was in charge of all the exterior pine work. If Frank installed some pine and the joints were open, I'd talk to Ben about it. Frank was in charge of the framing layouts. If Ben put a window in the wrong place, Frank was responsible. Everyone layed out their own walls. They had to learn how to read and implement the plan. Before Ben "graduated" from lumber stocking duties, he had to train a replacement. We hired Brad but Ben was still responsible for stocking everyone (pre Skytrak days) and responsible for orderly lumber piles and proper staging. If lumber was staged improperly (I have very explict demands regarding everything from volume to safety to location to aesthetics to conservation, etc) I would go talk to Ben, not Brad. Ben would "re-instruct Brad. When Brad finally understood the lumber pile management job, he became the master of the lumber. Ben moved up the ladder to layout duties.
If you follow what was happening, I was basically handing the torch over on a thousand little details.
The tool issue was an expensive lesson. Frank decided that he wanted a nice neat organized trailer that he could walk into. I didn't think it was wise to leave this onsite, but Frank insisted that it would be okay. We didn't do two house and we lost everything. But, really, there isn't that much on a rough frame crew. They got the gen, compr, a couple guns, staplers, saws, etc. I was right, it wasn't a good idea, but if I didn't let Frank make a decision, do you think that he would believe me to this day? What cost would you associate towards denying him his opportunity to try something? Sometimes those types of things stick in a guys craw and relationships sour. Now, instead of him stewing, he thinks I'm a genius. I was right.
We could have had an alarm system like the other crew. Their trailer got hit too, but the thieves ran when the alarm sounded.
You see, there's a solution for every "challenge". YOu've got to want it though.
One of the other solutions to the tool challenge was this. After losing everything, we decided that we didn't want to lump so many tools in one spot. We asked each guy if they'd take home their nailgun and stapler. That left only hoses and cords and nails in the new Joboxs. We designated Ben to be the gen and air hauler since he was the early bird and paid him a bit extra. He made a few extra bucks and I was free.
I'll admit that I was worried that the guys would screw things up royally when I left for a week, so I started taking days off to allow them to ease into the job of self managing. I designated Frank as the boss and started taking a day or two off, even if I just stayed home and fished on my pontoon boat. One day led to two, to three then suddenly entire houses are being framed! They managed to build a 12 unit multi without me!
We had our screwups but I trained them early on dealing with screwups by making them fix their own mistakes. I'd make them figure their own stuff out, build it wrong then tell them to figure out how to fix it. After fixing it, I'd show them how I would have fixed it faster and better but I had to learn to let them grow on their own.
I hope this post isn't truncated but if it is, I hope you're still with me on this conversation. You're young and you have a chance to make things much better at a much earlier age than I. Dont wait!
Please Diesel, don't feel like I'm indicting your on anything. I'm just trying to share my own mistakes to help you avoid them if you can. If I'm off target on how you operate, please don't take offense. I only wish I had someone explaining all this to me when I was in my thirties!
blue
Great post Blue. You make some great points and while not everything is a dead match to me and my business... you came pretty close.
You know... I guess on some level I know you're right. But I'm sure you'll admit that it isn't easy letting go. I mean, for many of us I'd have to guess that "doing it our way" is a big part of why we started a business in the first place. We were probably all working for someone else and knew that we could "do it better" than the guy we were working for so we struck out on our own, right? Not in just how we physically build, but how we run the whole shootin' match.
So if you started a business based on a "better way".... doesn't it just kill you to see someone doing something another less productive way? Or struggling with something you'd zip past? Or making a mistake that you know is gonna cost them time and aggravation two steps later?
I guess I'm trying to "fix" all that stuff before I turn the keys over. That's probably a very unrealistic goal as it's never all going to get fixed and guys will always do things differently than me. Just like I did with my old boss.
While I can't say I will ever feel comfortable with just walking away from my little company and letting the monkeys run the zoo, I'd have to say that you're right over all. There's really no good reason that I couldn't find a way or a time to squeeze a vacation in here and there. Anything less rings of control issues and you're right about that. You and Blodgett both struck similar chords in alluding to "letting the things you own end up owning you". I've always thought of that to mean possessions and always been wary of falling prey to that trap. But my business could certainly fall in that category too.
I know your advice is always well intended Blue and you're a good guy for sharing it. If I ever get frustrated with you it's more because of your delivery than what it is your telling me. The patronizing stuff doesn't fly well with me. But I don't doubt that your heart is in the right place and you probably just think I needed to toughen up a bit anyway. {G} Maybe you're right. Not that I think your last post was patronizing, but I'm speaking in more general terms. I'd be a fool to not pay attention to someone who is at the other end of the road I'm starting down.
Thanks for your thoughts.
Diesel, First things first, I never meant to patronize you but maybe some sarcastic humor was misunderstood. In real life, sometimes I have a hard time being informative without coming across as something bad. I'm working on those skills. For the most part, I've learned to shut up and not say anything but since this forum is based on exchanging info, I do so liberally.
For the record, I see you as a young me, very interested in the trade and willing to do what's necessary to excel. I think your a bit more conservative than I, but essentially were both the same: rough framers. You have the luxury of getting a lot more real business advice from this source and quite frankly: I'm jealous. I would have read everything (I still do), argued a lot but learned more. You WILL be much farther ahead of me when you are 51 because of the collective knowledge that you glean from here.
Back to the real topic:
Turning over control is a big challenge for a control freak. I used to be considered that and I'm sure I made many workers crazy and ruined their work days. The only ones that could hang with me were young skilled guys with low esteem. I only looked at things from a carpentry viewpoint and never cared about their "feelings". I still want to get queazy from saying the words. I've learned that there is a lot more to doing things "better" than just being faster, better or more business savvy. I've managed to change.
Is it easy? No, especially on a guy like me that knows so many tricks to speed up a process. Does it drive me crazy seeing someone take ten times the amount of time on a simple process? Yes, so I do what I have to do to not be affected: I don't look! If I stumble onto someone doing something incredibly dumb, or not so clever, I do the next best thing: I think before I speak. I mentally ask myself what the payoff is (thank you Dr Phil for that wonderful question). Invariably, I'll mentally decide that the guy will be "wasting" ten seconds or ten minutes but that my budding in will only result in bad karma or somehow reduce the effectiveness of the worker if he starts brooding or is otherwise mentally affected by my interuption. I do reserve the right to discuss safety issues however and I'll let the minor stuff go but not the major.
My goal in life was to be the best carpenter, but that doesn't translate well into being a good business or a good business man. That fact didn't occur to me till I was well into my career. I envisioned working on a framing crew well into my seventies. I only started working on my business and personal skill in the last decade, maybe only 5 years ago. You have the advantage of starting the overall process much earlier. If you truly only devote yourself to being the best carpenter, your business will suffer if you stay in the business alone. If you aspire to be great at business, you have to lay down the carpenter tools. If you try to do both, you'll either be average at both or burnt out.
You have to make the choice.
If I was starting out again and decided that I wanted to be a frame carpenter, which I absolutely loved and still love, I'd probably seek to build a company that employed two or three crews with each foreman acting as CEO of his crew. I'd be seeking highly intelligent (street intelligence is suitable), highly motivated, family guys and set them up to be foremen. I'd turn over the keys, one procedure at a time.
When you find the right guy, he can be quickly educated. If you don't have the right guy, but love your guys anyways, don't cheat your future by not seeking your replacement. Every day lost to this search will send your freedom out one day later.
Unfortunatly for me, my heart isn't in building a sustainable carpentry crew. I made the decision last year that I am out so I won't take my own advice. I am moving forward on other endeavors though.
blue
Blue, Piff, Jeff and others....
Well you've certainly given me some stuff to chew on. I can't really argue as your collective experience far outweighs the couple years I've been at this. I know that you all are right and that my feelings on taking time off are founded on fears which make them pretty much indefensible.
I'd love a vacation. Man, I need a vacation. Between the business and what I've got going on at my own home, I've got a pretty full plate. I just get nervous sometimes about "resting on my laurels". That's how I tend to look at unproductive time which is a relatively unhealthy view. But the truth is, even if I don't think I'm in a position for a vacation..... my wife certainly is. And of course I would benefit from it as well. I guess I need to look at a vacation as productive time. Kinda like sleeping. Sure it can seem like a waste of time, but without it I'm junk. Don't wanna be junk.
Anyway.... I'm just thinking out loud at this point, so I'll end the post.
Thanks again for sharing you experience and attempting to crack into my concrete skull.
Brian,
Read the article I posted a few threads back.
Eric[email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
dieselpig,
Blues advice is directly relevant to you---since you are essentially in the same business
but in addition to that I will tell you directly that I suspect you are costing yourself ( you are actually loosing) thousands of dollars a year by not taking a vacation.
Last summer I took a trip to Boston---i had never been there.
the change of scenery and the exposure to places,things,people I had never previously encountered----started ideas flowing
I filled half a notebook with ideas,book titles, sketches, concepts to investigate back home, different techniques to try out, different business opportunities to explore----just TONS of wildly diverse stuff
even a couple of woodworking project ideas--AND a free form poem!--I bet I haven't written a poem since they made me do it 30 years ago in school!
Now--I carry a notebook with me anytime I travel--- because those ideas don't come in a rush like that when you are working at the same old stuff
Best wishes to you, Stephen
Thats an awesome suggestion Stephen! I carry a small notebook too with a little pencil tucked into the spirals. I keep a rubber band wrapped around it so it stays tidy tucked into a pocket somewhere.
Your experience on your vacation isn't unique. Well healed travelers have known and experienced this forever and have always tried to get people to understand that vacations and "re-creation" are invaluable to sustaining a vibrant career.
blue
blue,
if you appreciate what I will call " simple things done well"
look for the worlds absolutely most perfect pencil
the brand is the Mirado Black Warrior HB2.
I am a big fan of "things to do" lists----and even something as humdrum as writing a note to buy coffee filters makes me smile with a Mirado black Warrior HB2.
Stephen
LoL Haz! I just jotted that pencil down in my notebook. I buy a lot of pencils and pens looking for something that I like and I'll give that one a try!
blue
Amen, call it a notebook or a sketchbook, and add a camera, and we can travel together.
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If we should travel together piffen-------- feel free to take all the pictures you want.
In general--- I don't take any pictures at all-----
my wife takes a LOT of pictures---in fact in our family room--the coffee table is really a cedar chest overflowing with pictures-------
I NEVER look at 'em-------- I find looking at pictures---for me---- a little to0 melancholy----a little depressing------a touch to focusing on the past
but that's just MY personality---my wife really enjoys taking 'em----though she is not any good at it.
Personally--- I prefer to stay" in the moment"--" in the flow"---REALLY experience the passing event---------and stopping to take a picture of that really disrupts the experience for me-------- but again---that's just me.
I did see one picture a few weeks ago that I am gonna try and track down and get a copy. My son is a decent cross country runner---not spectacular---but pretty good. In the last 6 years we have gotten pretty close with the parents of other teamates--------and THEIR kids have kind of become OUR kids---we feed'em,, we clean up after em, we have watched em sweat--watched em bleed, watched em puke at the finishline,watched some of them pass out---------------well this fall, a couple of the parents put on a kind of photo essay of the past season---probably a total of 300 or so pictures of ALL the kids in action---everthing from total and overwelming victory---to crushing despair----from the victory podium to muddy spikes and a discarded gatoraid bottle
Well--sombody,somewhere in some race took a picture of my Kevin---Kevin isn't looking very photogenic in the picture----drenched with sweat and in such obvious unrelenting pain----but despite that--he has " The LOOK"--------- well since that picture flashed up on the screen---one out of maybe 300 pictures------ I bet at least a dozen different people have pulled me aside and said" that PICTURE of Kevin----- that's the whole sport right there isn't it"------------ they are usually shaking their head when they say it----as if the picture is too revealing somehow
anyhow----- that's maybe the ONE photo I want.
Happy traveling,
Stephen
He doing what he needs to be doing . Doing it quite well too.
When you get right down to it theres not enough good working years. Hes got his house going after still being a newly wed . Trying to gather nuts in the fall before the kids come . His hair is on fire goin mach 2 with a lot of irons in the fire . Hes probably got twice the energy you do right now . Hes only been in business for three years and look at him climb. I guess Im proud for him. I see a lot of fire .
Ever notice when ever someone goes on a diet everyome tells how to do it ? I always figgured that person was the only one suffering at the time .
Theres plenty of vacation in retirement.
Tim
tim,
I am not certain what you are talking about---but that's ok!
Stephen
Theres plenty of vacation in retirement.
I am not sure if this was tongue in cheek, or not. But I would point out that a lot of people don't make it to retirement.
In the article that Eric Paulson linked to, are quotes from a guy named Clay Nelson. Last year I was at a seminar he put on. In his introductions he said he "was a Vietnam Vet, who did two tours of duty, been shot twice, stabbed once, made millions and lost millions, but never so scared as when at the age of 45 I was diagnosed with cancer".
He survived and has made it his mission to encourage contractors to have a life outside of work.
Bowz
"He survived and has made it his mission to encourage contractors to have a life outside of work. "
I thought for a while to add a tag line under my name to say;
Money is not everything but it keeps the kids in touch.
Or we could use the preachers terms ;
Im gonna have to pass the plate again. In order for this church to run it has to have the money to crawl first.
There are many more but the man is supposed to be the provider. He directs the way and holds the light for family passage. It is up to him to be the wise man in family planning .
Till 20 yrs old he is but a child for he has not learned to survive although he can fight in a war.
Till 30 yrs old he has learned to make a living and enjoy making money starts which for the first time in his life isnt hard but the expenses!
From 30 to 40 he learns how to spend money hes making .
Sometime around 50 he realizes his time is short to put enough nuts away for all the winters he wont be working .. If he was smart this could have occurred at 40 but did it ? Some times it did and then failed or blew up in his face like all the men who invested their family retirement money in the stock market that crashed. It seems making money is only part of it as keeping it is the other half in investment.
In barber shop talk of old timers many of them were not comfortable until their whole farm and equipment , plus herd of cattle , was paid for and they were able to buy their wife a new car by writing one check . What they are saying is that they have their means of a living paid for in full.
Past 50 is rocky territory with health issues . I almost died but I didnt so I still need to work. Its harder now and I wish I would have made an earliar run . And ran harder.
You speak of a man that had these experiences but it sounds like hes making a living off you in the process.
Tim
I'm not really directing this at you, just kind-of sitting on the porch thinking out loud
He directs the way and holds the light for family passage. It is up to him to be the wise man in family planning
Agreed, but it is harder for him to do that at 60 hrs/wk. Maybe the "leadership" has to come in the form of saying "no" to requests for material possesions, in favor of quality family time.
I almost died .
That's what I remembered, and why I couldn't tell if you were serious about your other comment or not. Really,I agree with your assessment of DP and where he is at, especially without kids yet. However it is my observation, that too many people don't throttle back some when the kids arrive. They are only going to be young and immpressionable once. Miss that chance and you don't get another.
You speak of a man that had these experiences but it sounds like hes making a living off you in the process.
Yes, that could very well be. But I've had a number of teachers who made their living off of me. K-12 and a year of tech school, why would I stop learning after that? I guess maybe I am getting to realize that I don't have enough time left to re-invent the wheel, so I am more than willing to spend money, to gain knowledge, so that I make better use of the limited time I have left.
Any type of learning, or books, or CD's that will return it's cost, in a year or two is worth it . Because that knowledge will continue to provide a return year after year. Heck, where else can you get a 50% to 100% return year after year? And it might not be in money, it can be in less hours worked.
Bowz
I wish I could remember everything . I need lots of note books. But then Id forget where I put them.
Theres a time to love and a time to sing .
Theres a time to work and a time to rest.
On and on etc.
Theres a time to die too. And a time to be ready to retire.
I pretty much believe all that . No one else has to Im quite sure.
But we can miss our times like trains because time keeps rolling on waiting on no one. Time doesnt stand still. Keeps rollin on.
We can make the wrong decisions and screw it up.
Stay home with the kids? ok but yesterday;
I rented that second house I had to fix up that cost me the trip to meeting you guys . I did a lot of work to it and it shined like a babies butt. I wrote the lease Saturday evening to two college girls .
One had her dad with her and when I said I need 1 thousand dollars total he liked to have fell out . It was evident he couldnt afford it . The other girl appeared rich to me from the first day I met her. She simply "flipped ", her check book out and wrote her 500 in an instant. No question from her and she signed the lease quickly. She was all in and all done .
The Father had to mumble and force up questions trying to understand it all. I could see his daughter had not imformed him. It was kinda bad but I got the checks . I could tell it hurt him.
One had a Dad that had money in her account on demand for the girl wrote a personal check .
Depends where you are when the ball is snapped if you like your position.
Money is not everything but it keeps the kids in touch.
Tim
JP Morgan said he could do a years work in nine months, but could not do it in twelve
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Perfect is the enemy of good
Although I am not Jim I think I can add a little insight to the difference. Jim works similar size jobs to the ones that I do. Most of my jobs take from a day to 2 weeks with maybe 10 a year that take 3. When we contract we tell them it will take that amount of time and stopping at a given time is included in the schedule.
Since we work in occupied homes 90 percent of the time most people are glad to see you go home at the end of the day. This week we are doing a kitchen remodel. We worked over an hour 2 nights. But we showed up late one day by 4 hours.
So I think it is a matter of what is agreed to, size of the job and the real biggie is we are the whole job not a piece of the puzzle that is holding everyone else up from getting started like in your area. That is my big deal about my business is I can usually control my time. DanT
DWs boss trained people to run all his comapanies in his absense. In fact he doesnt run anything anymore. But he says until he trained and intrusted others he always had what he could handle .
The rule is supposed to be that you are only as big as you are yourself unless to deligate.
That thinking is what will put you above the statements like , Why give a bonus?
Tim
One of napolean Hill's ten rules for success in "Think and Grow Rich" was to never do anything yourself that you can get someone else to do for you.
At first glance, the way that's worded sounds cut out for a lazy man, but it is a simple management principle when you see it in practice. That is what managers do - manage to get people to perform
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
"One of napolean Hill's ten rules for success in "Think and Grow Rich" was to never do anything yourself that you can get someone else to do for you. At first glance, the way that's worded sounds cut out for a lazy man, but it is a simple management principle when you see it in practice. That is what managers do - manage to get people to perform"
hahaha , its getting easiar and easiar to catch you my friend.
You remember that advice I was tryin to give you about buying that wood splitter ? UHUh,
I was sayin we are gettin at an age that we should let the youngins cut it for us and split it too. I think you wanted to work in your wood lot though which dont make if different for a preacher to preach one thing and practice another . Or is it ok to do that now ? hahahaha Then there was the thingy about what you charge on the job and what you save cutting and splitting wood . Go wear your self out you ole fart. <G>
Tim
"never do anything yourself that you can get someone else to do for you."
get someone to do ...
or
PAY someone to do.
people can get me to do lotsa stuff ... if they pay me.
following that logic ... you can spend yerself broke "getting people to do" things so U can get rich quick!
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
following that logic ... you can spend yerself broke "getting people to do" things so U can get rich quick!
I assume you are speaking about the note to Piffin.
I got a neighbor about 75 years old I think. 5 years ago he wanted to borrow a 12 foot step ladder and a 40 extension ladder .
What in the hell for I said ,...
He wanted to trim his shade trees , but actually he topped them. I told him there would be no way I would do that and he said why. Because I make enough money not to put my self at risk. I do enough as it is with out climbing in a tree and cutting 12 inch branches. I work in peoples poop and clean up god knows what kind of messes and have to smell it . Im always working in someones filth. I smell from paint fumes and come home really dirty sometimes . Other times I have to strip at the door before I enter. Many days I cant stop at a store or wont. 100 degree heat and 0 degree weather . Some times have to work in the rain. Get called out at midnight and always go if I need to . I dont have to climb in a frickin tree too.
Thats as close as I remember what I told him.
I guess everyone draws a line somewhere . I remember I dynamited my well and I had never done that before plus doing it alone . DW thought I had lost my mind then but for some reason I felt in control of it although I was also ignorant of it . I did think every thing out for logic for there wasnt any second chances at it. Probably I shouldnt have done it with at least a teacher there the first time .
I know for years my mechanic work was definate disaster . Nothing I ever touched ever ran again. I can think of nothing . Finally I got fair at small engines after wasting a bunch of time trying. I would have been happy to pay for it but in the summer you cant get in a small engine shop you would want to be there anyway. Ive got a bunch of small engines of different types. Somthing had to give somewhere .
Tim
point is to make money getting it done.
and it is hard to fiocus on discovering new ways to produce and profit when you are shoveling dung.So you get paid for the dung removal, pay somebody to do th eshovel work, while you busy yourself finding a buyer for 'soil amendments'
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
One thing is business, the other personal excercise, pleasure, and recreation
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
"Jim, this is an honest question. One not meant to be sarcastic in anyway."
I very rarely "read" a question in a serius discussion like this as sarcastic, diesel. I read and read here, thinking, learning, and when I have a strong opinion, or one that differs from one that's been said already, I'll add it to the list. I don't remember reading a ton of your posts before we met at Rhodefest, but at least since then I think you communicate in a straight forward way, and I appreciate that.
"I mean, say your schedule was such that your next job is a second floor additon. Would you take a week or two off before your vacation rather than start a project like that and leave it open?"
For me, the key is in the "your schedule" part of this question. Job scheduling is one of the skills I have developed (slowly) over the years. It goes hand in hand with understanding profit and overhead, operating costs, capital and operating expenses.
You're absolutely right, there's no way I'd tear a roof off, then leave it open for a week while sunning myself on Maui. But I wouldn't schedule that type of work that close to my vacation, either.
Plus, I have a really great set of circumstances here. We manufacture some products in the shop that makes up about 30% of our business every year. Any time I have a free day, or week, I can easilly spend it building inventory for orders I know will come soon enough.
Plus, we are developing some real estate and that takes more of my time each year, so I am scheduling less and less work for other people as we progress on our path.
The longer I live the more I believe each of us has unique circumstances that affect how much stress we are under. The key for me is to recognise that I am the one who decides what I will and will not do - each year, each day, each minute. Once I took that personal authority for my life, everything became much simpler.
For something as long as a vacation, I try to have a small easy job saved up, like a garage or shed that is not time-critical, or two years ago, an addition to frame. I spent more time than usuall on the drawings so that every detail was there to be seen. Still had to reframe two window ROs when I got back, but the rest was finew. Small price to pay for me being able to spend a week in Florida while they framed in zero temperatures while making me money.
yah, delegation is a wonderful skill once you learn it! Takes time for them to learn their end and to accept the responsibility, but it works when you get good guys, train and motivate them. You are on the right road. You also have to make a practice of praising your help in front of the customers too. It instills confidence in the whol;e company from the client's POV so they are not leary when you are not present. If they start looking for something wrong, they will fiond it even when it does not exist, so they need that shopt of confident aura. And it does the guys on the crew good too.A line from my public advertising says, "Our craftsmen are amoung the finest in the ...area"
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I started another thread on this topic that includes a link to an excellent article in Remodeler.
Breaktime #67045.1
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=67045.1
I would really love for everyone to have a look at it.
The thread seemed to vaporize (what a surprise!) and I think you all would miss a good read.
Eric[email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
One of the most important steps I took to develop Frank as a foreman was to put him in charge of the job, while I worked on the crew. When the guys came up to me, I refused to answer questions and directed them to Frank. Within my own crew, I re-organized and re-structured the pecking order while I worked every day onsite.
When the superintendent walked up, Frank spoke to him. This caused an immediate sense of ownership on both parts: Frank owned the job and the superintendent owned Frank. When I decided that Frank was capable, it was quite easy to take a day or two off. Soon I was taking off three, then four. Then, I skipped the entire house, then two, then three. I think I only worked on one or two houses in 2001 and 2002.
If I was more interested in framing as a business, I would have been developing a second foreman instead of goofing off. I squandered my opportunity but I still could do it today, but the rates of return vs the risk is not good. I think I would be more optimistic if I didn't live in the rust belt.
Before you can turn the job over to the new budding foremen, it's important that he "certifies" himself in all aspects of the job. I used to break my jobs into several subsections: foundation sill plate layout, garage, decks, walls, pine, stairs, material management, and sheathings. I challenged the guys to do one aspect perfectly before I would "certify" them. I think it took Ben ten sets of stairs before he got the green tag on my first inspection, but after that, I quit checking because I knew he would deliver a quality set of stairs if I stayed out of his way.
Frank was a much quicker learner but he is also prone to shortcutting and is easily led astray. He's much more inclined to accept subtlly lower standards but is conscientious enough to do a good job. He's got a lot of stregths though, so overall he's balanced enough to get the job done on his own.
As a way to induce them all to do good work without supervision, I made them supply their numbers for service work. When the superintendent found something wrong, he'd be calling the foreman for service, not me. That tidbit alone is worth a thousand extra words of encouragement from me. I don't know too many people that want to get aservice call telling them that they missed something. It's too embarassing.
In a lot of ways, it was better that the younger guys were dealing with the younger superintendents. They had a more natural connection and rapport between themselves.
blue
Don't mean to get you off track, here, but just a comment for you to bounce back - I know your general feelings about remodeling - don't you think it is easier to train a crew to take over when the job is a repetitive subcontract situation like framing or roofing or concrete than when it is more varied like the work I do in remo? there, I have to break things down too, so that the guys doing aacertain phase are the ones most qualified for it since I can't be everywhere at once. That phasing and segmenting is what trained me to be able to get away for longer periods of time. Eventually, there are jobs where I have them all lined out with what to do, while I run around visiting clients, designing, doing the little 'can you fit htis in?" one ro two day jobs, but still in the neighborhood. They learn to take on some responsibility to make decisions and I sometimes have to bite my lip and say that's fine but maybe next time trty this way of looking at it, instead of calling for a rebuild. If I reject what they do too often, they fear making any decisions at all. I don't need any scared rabbits
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
don't you think it is easier to train a crew to take over when the job is a repetitive subcontract situation like framing or roofing or concrete than when it is more varied like the work I do in remod?
Absolutely! But that only illustrates that its much more critical for a remodeler to start the process sooner. The process itself will be different, but it's still necessary if you want to have employees.
I think the difficulty in achieving an employee based workforce, while striving to have free time explains why so many gc's rely on competent sub contractor pools.
In any case, it's much easier to take a vacation if your in the rubbish removal business. It takes you four seconds to teach your protege's how to bend down and pick up a broken brick, but it might take four years to develop a foreman. The fact remains: if you don't start the training process, you'll never have a vacation. Remember, my first vacation came when my kids were in their teens. I cheated them out of a lot of vacations because I didn't take the delegation process seriously. I was a slave to my business.
Now I take off any time I want. I made more then, but I have more time now.
How much will you pay for an extra week to take a vacation, when you are laying on your death bed?
blue
vacations ...
I decided 3 years ago that I wasn't gonna screw my kid out of a summer vacation ever again. Had big plans to have him hit the beach in Wildwood NJ at 6 months old ... just like the pic I have of my first time there ... guess what ... a "big job" came up ... and I was "too busy" ... another "can't miss this oportunity" ...
Bull sh!t.
I robbed my kid out of a picture he could look back on and plan for his kids first summer vacation.
Never again. No customer is ever going to be as important as my kid.
Since that first near miss ... I just plan a vacation ... and stick to it.
Let the customer know in advance ... maybe it's at the begining of a job ... maybe at the end. Doesn't matter ... the customers certainly ain't gonna skip their summer vacation just because some remodeling is going on, now are they?
If a job was falling into place for me to start the week or 10 days I was planning on being away ... I'd just bump the start date back. We're not talking emergency surgery here ... it's freaking remodeling ... they can wait another 10 days.
I will not however ... push back my vacation to finish something. Undone will be undone for one more week ... I decided to act like I was a real freaking person just like everyone else! Offices around the world go on functioning with important people MIA on vacation ... I'm no more important than anyone else ... so I can sit on a beach and not worry about the world collapsing in my absence.
Even this past year ... didn't have the cash to pay off bills and do a big vacation ... so we camped instead. Right in the middle of a job ... lady had to eat out for one more week as she had no kitchen ... but ... I told her up front ... I'm gonna be on vacation from this day till this day. She wasn't real happy I actually went on vacation ...
and I wasn't real happy she didn't think I deserved a week in the woods with my kid once a year.
U have a crew ... I'm sure they could get 3 days of work done in the 5 or so you are gone. Tell the GC U are gonna gone ... and thinsg will probably slow down. Ignore their rantings and ravings and remind yer wife why she married you.
Here's a qood test .. ask the wife ... the one yer working so hard to provide a better life for ... if she's vote yea/nea on the idea of a nice little getAway for the two of U ...
Then tell everyone else to go screw themselves ... the jury has spoken.
Family ... kids or not ... it's all about family.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
"threw in the entrepeneurial towel and went to work for a boss."
I can see why if you think 50 hrs is a long week . try meglomart or other large retailers they will keep you under 40 hrs so you have pleanty of time for yourself .(off course you wont have enought to live on so you will have to take another 38 hr a week job to get by )
been self employed for over 20 years and a 50 hour week for me would be "part time "
Interesting. A few years ago I was a job by a company that puts up fairly standard tract-type housing. An entry-level construction management position. I was told 72 hours per week minimum, 84 was a lot more typical. No benefits, no compensation for use of my vehicle. I mentioned this job offer to a friend of mine, who said, "Oh, yeah, we live in a 'right-to-work' state, which means they can work salaried employees up to 80 hours per week without additional compensation.". You might want to find out if you live in a 'right-to-work' state.
Caribouman
I don't think a "right to work state" has anything to do with how many hours an employer can work a salaried person during the week.
I could be wrong on this but that's not my understanding of a "right to work state"
Doug
Simple math, bear with me. I'm not trying to be a smart aleck or anything.
50 hours a week is 25% more than 40 hours.
60 hours a week is 50% more than 40. That is 1.5 times 40!
Once in a while to help out and do your part to make the company successful, sure, no problem. Maybe make it up by leaving early for the kid's game or something once in a while. As long as it's not abused on either side, all should be happy in a good company.
What would your decision be if they said, "Hey, we like you , good fit. More responsibility, management job, 40 hours in a typical week. BUT we are going to pay you only 80% of your current pay. Or even 67%. And no overtime on those emergencies that you have to put in 45-50 hours for a week or 2 at a time. Whaddya say? You on board pardner?"
What's your leisure/free/family time worth? And with 50-60 hours a week, is your family gonna want to spend time with tired ol' grouchy you?
Pete Duffy, Handyman
So what's the deal Eric, you make any decisions yet?
Doug
Thanks for asking. Been an exciting week actually.
Tell you more Christmas day.
No peaking!![email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
To quote Ben Franklin: Joy is not in things, it is in us.
Long hours are not worth it. Yes, I know first hand.
Life and suffering are inseparable.