Hello, it is good to be here. I found this forum last night and am like a kid in a candystore with all the posts available to peruse. I have been working on my garage apt. extensively over the last few years and have made tremendous progress ripping out the drywall to add FB insulation, remodding the bathroom, building new stairs, etc., and the whole time adhering to code or above it.
N-E-ways the question, possibly controversial, that I would like to put forward to the forum involves the electric radiant heat method. Having stumbled across an installation manual for Heatweave which I read back to back I came to the conclusion that what Heatweave does is loop Tefzel Ni-chrome wire around a mat of sorts that maintains the wire in reasonably spaced rows of about 3-4 inches, which the installer lays before setting tile over it. The thing is, I can buy this Tefzel wire from a wire supply house by the roll and pretty much do my own looping prior to laying tile over it. Naturally I would save quite a bit of money. You have to be careful to not cross wires over each other when doing this and maintain good spacing (I was thinking of using a hot glue gun to hold the wire in place on the cement backerboard as suggested by another installation guide I read). Also, the end of the wire should meet back up at the beginning so the thermostat leads can attach to the Tefzel. I looked around and found a a simple floor sensing thermostat with sensor (this goes in the middle of the installation to tell how warm the floor is) by Deltatherm that seems to fit the bill for this job.
The two main concerns I have are which gauge of wire to use (26 au?) and grounding. I am not sure if the shielding used in Tefzel is a grounding part. If anyone knows the answers to this I would be grateful. I do know a bit about the resistance of these wires and determing how long of a wire to use to arrive at a wattage figure. I just am not sure what gauge would be best for my purpose and again, about the grounding issue.
I would also like to hear any other concerns about my idea the members may have. Thanks gentlemen.
Edited 2/3/2004 10:25:42 PM ET by jman
Replies
Welcome to Breaktime
The wire gauge will be a directly related to resistance, which will be again related to wattage.
Although your idea sounds fine in theory I think you are walking on thin ice here, will you insurance cover a non ULC installation? Is the risk worth the money saved?
bake
Edited 2/4/2004 12:17:21 AM ET by bake
All the heat trace I've installed on process equipment have had two leads and a resistive element between them. So both connections are at one end of the wire. The other end can be buried once made water-tight.
So you are working with something different, which is okay. If you are comfortable with the watts/sqaure foot that you've calculated, I would proceed. Burying wire in mortar below tile is about as good a heat sink as you can have. So the wires should stay well within their temperature limits. (Sometimes, in free air, you can get them too hot).
Welcome and go for it, sounds like you have done the basic homework. Assuming you know what I^2*R and V^2/R and a basic concept of thermal conductivity is you are all set.
Others in ancient posts have expounded on the insurance scare being grossly exagerated or non-existent.
Only ever came across 3 things that were not DIY.
1. filling own cavities cant do - pulling own teeth OK.
2. performing own brain surgery after tractor accident when unconcious, and
3. putting stitches in left hand with only the other functioning - OK, for those of you even more DIY, but that crazy glue stings too much!
-- make it 4.....probably could not bury myself without commiting suicide.
final caveat, lots of DIY may be illegal <G>
"3. putting stitches in left hand with only the other functioning - OK, for those of you even more DIY, but that crazy glue stings too much!"
There are some ants in the tropics that bite so hard as to close up a gash. And when you twist the bodies off, the head stay clamped closed on your skin. So I think this could be an easy DIY. Also, I can do a really quick one-handed bowline. I could certainly do a one-handed (plus teeth?) square knot or blood knot.David Thomas Overlooking Cook Inlet in Kenai, Alaska
You're one up on me. I can tie a bowline on a heaving foredeck, behind my back, with cold water spraying in my face and the helmsman yelling at me, but one-handed? Slick. Thou Shalt Describe Thy Technique!
didBlah, yada, whatever, Hi how are you today
Interestingly enough, I found the most information on this approach to electric radiant heating in a BMW forum. A guy had made his own heated jacket, boots and gloves with lengths of resistance wiring, all for about 36 dollars. Apparently you want to avoid the shoulders as those are more sensitive to heat and try to warm the lower back as much as possible.
As for insurance purposes I am going to be responsible for my own installation and any hazards that may come with it. The amount of money saved would be quite phenomenal but then again thats probably why DIY's do the things they do. (And derive satisfaction from a job :) ).
I wouldnt do anything like this without fully researching it. So far, aside from the non UL rating, there does not seem to be anything downright dangerous involved. As for electrical hook up I will most likely call the guy who installed my meter to advise me and see if the inspector will need to check it out. I honestly think though that will not be necessary. Hooking a thermostat up is pretty minor. No permits involved in that.
I appreciate the concerns and the posting of things not DIY possible. As for the crazy glue I have done that, a cat scratched me up bad by my lower lip. It worked until the doctor sent someone to the store to get glue remover lol.
Edited 2/5/2004 5:28:01 PM ET by jman
Lay the line across the bight, twist and tuck with index finger- easy with an 1/8 inch line or larger - me no can do with 1 mil mono stitching filament. Y:EEhah!
"one-handed bowline? Slick. Thou Shalt Describe Thy Technique"
Hold the free end in your right hand coming up from your wrist and the free end coming off you index finger tip. Hold in place with your thumb. Lay that over the standing part of the rope (which is to the left) and flip your hand, the free end and a section of the standing rope over - right pinkie starts away from your body, then lays over the standing rope, then the flip is your pinkie goes down and towards your body.
You have now complete the "hole" part and the "rabbit comes out of his hole" part. You will now need to do the "rabbit goes around the tree" and the "back in the hole" parts with your fingertips working the free end of the rope. Come on, take off a shoe and practice with your shoe laces. But this one is much easier with stiffer rope and with the standing part attached to something.
David Thomas Overlooking Cook Inlet in Kenai, Alaska
Well, I betcha just about anything I can think of that you can't do a one handed blood knot, without setting the whole thing up with 2 first.
Stef
I can tie a bowline with my teeth and tongue but I've never mastered a bowline on the bight. It used to impress the heck out of the chicks at the bar with my tongue tying abilities...
then again, I was young and usually three sheets to the wind - maybe I just thought they were impressed. :-)>Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
"I betcha you can't do a one handed blood knot.
I just did with my shoelaces. Silk suture would be easier because the distance would be small. I'm using thumb and index to grab one end while using ring and pinkie to hold the other end.
I showed up a day late for pioneering merit badge at camp and was told, "oh no, you can't catch up, we are already coverd all the knots: sqaure, tautline, bowline, figure eight, overhand, clove hitch, half hitch and round turn, etc." As quick as he said 'em, I tied them. He let me in the class.
David Thomas Overlooking Cook Inlet in Kenai, Alaska
filling own cavities cant do
Actually you can, and I have. I was on my way out of town to go on a 3 week fishing trip.... no way am I going to miss that.
Of course after I got back dentist takes a look.... takes a x-ray and she says "I couldn't do a better job, come see me in 6 months"